LGBTAI+ Question and Discussion Thread III: Third Time's A Charm

[Ifni]

@Razade: it's good that you don't find it insulting to be mistaken for a woman, and that you're secure enough in your masculinity to laugh it off when people get it wrong. That said -

That's a pretty typical response for cis people. And to be blunt, it isn't particularly relevant to the subject of trans people wanting their identities to be acknowledged. "I get misgendered occasionally (and then quickly apologised to) but my default experience is to be acknowledged and respected" is the opposite of "I get misgendered constantly and only rarely is my identity acknowledged and respected."

Yeah - there are many, many things that don't hurt when they happen occasionally, or when you have zero reason to feel threatened on the topic, but when they happen all the time, or when you're living in a hostile environment with respect to that topic anyway? Then it can hurt quite a bit.

I've been misgendered in person a few times - again, they were one-off events, they didn't hurt even a little bit. (And I like looking androgynous, so it actually makes me quite happy to be occasionally read as male.) I've been misgendered in email more often, usually in the context of "I know Ifni based on their work as a physicist, so I'm not even going to ask about gender or read their website [which is probably where they got my email], I'm just going to assume they're male". This doesn't hurt deeply, but it does bug me a bit. It bugs me because there's a pre-existing environment where I'm the only female faculty member in my research group (there are about 20 male faculty members), and I've given talks where I'm the only woman in a room with 50+ people. When people just assume I'm male by virtue of my profession, it reminds me that I'm the odd one out, of the underrepresentation of women in my field, and of certain bad experiences in my past (which were in part due to the assumption that girls could not do physics). In the absence of that environment it would be as non-bothersome as the in-person misgenderings, but the environment makes a difference.

Trans people may have to deal with both living in an invalidating environment and being misgendered in a good chunk of their everyday interactions. That is hard, and I don't think you can estimate how it feels by taking what you feel on being misgendered once, and multiplying by the frequency of events - the cumulative effect is worse than the sum of the individual instances.

For a non-gender-related example, from my own experience: one person in a group choosing not to talk to or interact with you in one conversation is business-as-usual, you generally won't even notice it. Effect = 0, to a good approximation. If everyone you know decides not to talk to or interact with you, for an extended period of time, you will notice and it will hurt. How much it hurts may depend on how introverted you are, but I'm a fairly extreme introvert, and when my entire high school class decided to stop talking to me or acknowledging my existence, that was a vastly more effective form of bullying than any name-calling or physical bullying they'd ever tried.

@Ursus: I do think appeals to empathy which are just "how would you feel if this happened to you", from marginalized to non-marginalized groups, don't always translate very well, because the existing marginalization can be an intrinsic part of what makes it hurt. But presumably you can see why people make them?

[Lycunadari]

Noparlpf and Ifni have explained the misgendering thing pretty well. Another aspect is also that if you get misgendered all the time, it makes being misgendered in spaces that are usually better about things like this, or by people who know better, hurt even more. I get misgendered all the time, every day, because I don't pass (whatever passing as nonbinary even means) and I'm only out to a few people, and while of course it hurts, and wears me down, it's something I'm used to and I don't hold it against people because they just don't know any better. But when my mum or my grandma, or people online in places where I have my pronouns in my signature or something, use the wrong name or the wrong pronouns, it hurts. Because I've let down my guard, metaphorically speaking, believing a place or person to be safe enough, just to find myself hurt again. And also, because it often means they just don't care enough, don't care about how they hurt me*. So every time it happens, I'm disappointed, every time I trust them a little less. So it's not "just" misgendering. It's also gradually losing faith in the people around you.


*Before people start saying something along the lines of "but it's so hard to use the right name/pronouns if you've know the person for a long time!" (because cis people always say this) – I'm not talking about the occasional slip up in the beginning, followed by an apology. I know it happens, though it doesn't have to – since I came out to my sister and told her my new name four years ago, she hasn't misgendered me a single time, hasn't used my old name once. I have friends who changed their name and pronouns, and it's really not that hard to not misgender them. But I'm talking about the times months or years after coming out, that are brushed off as if nothing happened, that are just a sign of carelessness, or a sign that the person still sees me as my assigned gender. Those are the times that hurt the most.

Do y'all consider Polyamory to be part of the LGBTAI~ family? My dad asked me about it the other day and I personally think of it as a kind of separate identity, where for those I'd say I'm like bi, ace, etc. and then also Poly as a different axis. Kinda like how gender and sexual orientation are separate. I dunno, just wanted to see what y'all think.

Yeah, I do. Sure, it's not a gender or a sexuality, but grouping marginalised gender identities and sexualities together doesn't really make sense either, but that's how it is so I don't see why we shouldn't include other non-normative categories as well. (Intersexuality is another separate axis that is included, and I'd also include kinky people though I understand how that can be controversial.) Everyone who is somehow excluded from Straight society has a place at my queer table.

[noparlpf]

@Ursus: I do think appeals to empathy which are just "how would you feel if this happened to you", from marginalized to non-marginalized groups, don't always translate very well, because the existing marginalization can be an intrinsic part of what makes it hurt. But presumably you can see why people make them?

Definitely this. I wasn't thinking how to say that clearly.

*Before people start saying something along the lines of "but it's so hard to use the right name/pronouns if you've know the person for a long time!" (because cis people always say this) – I'm not talking about the occasional slip up in the beginning, followed by an apology. I know it happens, though it doesn't have to – since I came out to my sister and told her my new name four years ago, she hasn't misgendered me a single time, hasn't used my old name once. I have friends who changed their name and pronouns, and it's really not that hard to not misgender them. But I'm talking about the times months or years after coming out, that are brushed off as if nothing happened, that are just a sign of carelessness, or a sign that the person still sees me as my assigned gender. Those are the times that hurt the most.

It's really not that hard to keep pronouns or names straight if you actually acknowledge and respect somebody's identity instead of whining about how their coming out impacts you. Isn't it funny how cis people seem to find it pretty easy to use the right name when it's a cis person who changed their name for whatever reason?

[Razade]

That's a pretty typical response for cis people. And to be blunt, it isn't particularly relevant to the subject of trans people wanting their identities to be acknowledged. "I get misgendered occasionally (and then quickly apologised to) but my default experience is to be acknowledged and respected" is the opposite of "I get misgendered constantly and only rarely is my identity acknowledged and respected."

Except I wasn't using it as an argument to tell Trans people to shut up about their identities being acknowledged. I have, repeatedly, pointed out ways for them to do so on this board and have been told "yeah but that's not the point" which I understand. It doesn't change the fact that those options are both existent and viable in the face of the fact that adding another innumerable amount of gender tags isn't exactly top priority on a forum that can barely handle a few spam bots. That's simply the reality we have to live in. And the people don't apologize (when they do...they often don't as I noted) because I correct them. They apologize because they see I have more male characteristics and their assessment of my sex and gender was on a small number of cues. However. Ursus has the right of it.

That's a pretty typical response for trans people.

Well, typical response from anyone who wants to invalidate the other side's experiences as "not counting because power dynamics and privileged etc etc".

Though your elaboration clears things up, the premise posed was pretty explicitly "how would you as a cismale feel if you were misgendered or excluded". Your argument shouldn't be with our response but with the validity of the question posed.

This. I thought I'd made that clear. I was expounding on what Ursus said in relation to a question I'd felt I'd already answered but was shown that perhaps some more elaboration was needed.

I guess my gender isn't a big enough part of my identity to take offense.

Ditto.

Do y'all consider Polyamory to be part of the LGBTAI~ family? My dad asked me about it the other day and I personally think of it as a kind of separate identity, where for those I'd say I'm like bi, ace, etc. and then also Poly as a different axis. Kinda like how gender and sexual orientation are separate. I dunno, just wanted to see what y'all think.

I certainly don't think it is.

@Razade: it's good that you don't find it insulting to be mistaken for a woman, and that you're secure enough in your masculinity to laugh it off when people get it wrong. That said -

It's got nothing to do with my masculinity, or lack there of, but everything to do with being comfortable with myself over all. What I identify as has nothing to do with it and the question I was responding to was asking specifically that. I certainly get that that isn't the case for everyone and I absolutely want to live in a world where everyone can be as comfortable in their own skin as me. But again, that has nothing to do with the question I was actually answering and expanding upon.

[Icewraith]

Definitely this. I wasn't thinking how to say that clearly.



It's really not that hard to keep pronouns or names straight if you actually acknowledge and respect somebody's identity instead of whining about how their coming out impacts you. Isn't it funny how cis people seem to find it pretty easy to use the right name when it's a cis person who changed their name for whatever reason?

Speak for yourself, I have enough problems remembering names for people I've known for years when they haven't changed their name.

[Ursus the Grim]

Speak for yourself, I have enough problems remembering names for people I've known for years when they haven't changed their name.

Heck I don't even know anyone who has changed their name.

Hopefully I can clear up some stereotypes about cis people. :P

[Iris]

Let me preface this with the fact that I grew up in a very religious family and thus have little knowledge of this sort of thing... I don't mean to offend.

How would one be able to tell if they are trans? I always thought of it as a binary scale, where the genders were actually defined as "what parts do you have? Okay, you're a guy." However, I've been growing more and more uncomfortable with myself, and I often fantasize about being a member of the opposite sex. If I could switch genders, I probably would. Then again, I don't really know what it's like to be of the opposite gender. I identify more with them, and I've been told that the way I think is much less typical of my sex than of the other, but I've never experienced being treated that way. Another thing standing in my way is that I've always considered myself heterosexual, and I feel like it's somehow "cheating"to say I'm trans and homosexual, as if it's just some excuse for being treated differently but keeping the same habits.

Is it just wishful thinking? Is it just a phase? Or am I really trans? Can I even tell for sure at this point? And if I am, how do I even begin to come out to my family? Is it worth it?

As you can tell, I'm questioning. A lot. If anyone can help me out, it would be very much appreciated.

Thank you.

[EternalMelon]

Let me preface this with the fact that I grew up in a very religious family and thus have little knowledge of this sort of thing... I don't mean to offend.
How would one be able to tell if they are trans? I always thought of it as a binary scale, where the genders were actually defined as "what parts do you have? Okay, you're a guy." However, I've been growing more and more uncomfortable with myself, and I often fantasize about being a member of the opposite sex. If I could switch genders, I probably would. Then again, I don't really know what it's like to be of the opposite gender. I identify more with them, and I've been told that the way I think is much less typical of my sex than of the other, but I've never experienced being treated that way. Another thing standing in my way is that I've always considered myself heterosexual, and I feel like it's somehow "cheating"to say I'm trans and homosexual, as if it's just some excuse for being treated differently but keeping the same habits.

Is it just wishful thinking? Is it just a phase? Or am I really trans? Can I even tell for sure at this point? And if I am, how do I even begin to come out to my family? Is it worth it?

As you can tell, I'm questioning. A lot. If anyone can help me out, it would be very much appreciated.

Thank you.

Only you can tell whether or not you are trans. Personally I don't like the idea of labeling people if they don't want to be, but from what you've posted so far it might be a possibility. In my experience most cis people don't linger long on any feelings of changing their genders. As for your sexuality, it is definitely not cheating to be homosexual after transitioning. Gender and sexuality are two separate things. Just as a gay man isn't a woman for being attracted to men, a trans-man is just as much of a man even if he too is attracted to men.

Part of transitioning is kinda to be treated differently without changing your habits. For example, I am still loud and eccentric after coming out, and all the changes I have made have been physical or terminology changes. Still the same person, treated differently.

If you still want to continue on the track of figuring out your gender identity I recommend doing some tests. Stuff like dressing up or presenting (in private if need be) as your preferred gender or seeing how you feel about being referred to as a specific gender. Stuff like how does the sentence "I was talking to Iris online the other day, she was asking questions in the LGBTIA+ thread" feel versus "I was talking to Iris online the other day, he was asking questions in the LGBTIA+ thread". It might be awkward at first because its different/scary. But if you try for a bit it might help you figure things out.

As for coming out, you might want to hold off on that until you yourself are sure. If you have a close friend you trust (especially if they are LGBT+ themselves) that you can talk to about this who can help you air things out or try on different names/pronouns then I suggest that. As for being worth it being comfortable with who you are is a very important thing to have. Again, only you can tell if its worth it but a vast majority of trans people do not regret transitioning.

Hopefully some of this helps. If you need support we have a thread for that and feel free to ask questions here, there, or by PM. We are here to help.

[AliceLost]

Let me preface this with the fact that I grew up in a very religious family and thus have little knowledge of this sort of thing... I don't mean to offend.

How would one be able to tell if they are trans? I always thought of it as a binary scale, where the genders were actually defined as "what parts do you have? Okay, you're a guy." However, I've been growing more and more uncomfortable with myself, and I often fantasize about being a member of the opposite sex. If I could switch genders, I probably would. Then again, I don't really know what it's like to be of the opposite gender. I identify more with them, and I've been told that the way I think is much less typical of my sex than of the other, but I've never experienced being treated that way. Another thing standing in my way is that I've always considered myself heterosexual, and I feel like it's somehow "cheating"to say I'm trans and homosexual, as if it's just some excuse for being treated differently but keeping the same habits.

Is it just wishful thinking? Is it just a phase? Or am I really trans? Can I even tell for sure at this point? And if I am, how do I even begin to come out to my family? Is it worth it?

As you can tell, I'm questioning. A lot. If anyone can help me out, it would be very much appreciated.

Thank you.

In addition to the great stuff posted by EternalMelon, you might find it educational to do some reading about the differences between gender and sex. A traditional (and outdated) view of gender and sex is that they are the same thing; ascribing gendered traits like hair length, clothes, emotions and proficiency at various tasks to individuals based on their chromosomes and genitals at birth. However, there are a lot of flaws with that system, not the least of which is that what society considers "masculine" and "feminine" traits changes constantly over time. So really, gender is just a social construct that we use as a shorthand for a lot of individual traits (and that we afford a lot of leeway. After all, dresses are considered feminine, yet a woman who wears suits isn't assumed to be a man), which means that if you feel more comfortable associating with traits not traditionally associated with your birth gender, "transitioning" is a perfectly legitimate way of expressing yourself. There is ever increasing acceptance for a much broader variety of gender expressions, which can allow you to define yourself in whatever way you feel most comfortable with. Don't feel locked in or overwhelmed by existing terminology, and feel you have to figure out exactly which label applies to you.

Also, gender and sexuality are different things, so you can identify as whichever gender you prefer, and be attracted to whatever gender(s) you prefer.

[Troacctid]

Which would you rather be if you had the choice, a boy or a girl?

If you've been regularly fantasizing about being the opposite sex for a significant amount of time and it's giving you confused feelings, there's a very high chance you are not cisgender. When a questioning person says they're doing that, that's usually when I link them to http://amitransgender.com (which, besides being able to tell if you are trans, also contains some good resources for people who are questioning). Keep in mind though that "Not cisgender" doesn't automatically mean "Trans man/woman," because there's a whole range of nonbinary gender identities that would exhibit all the same signs. Only you can decide what label, if any, to place on your gender identity.

[martixy]

I wonder how many LGBT people tie their self-identity to a gender-related label...

[Razade]

I wonder how many LGBT people tie their self-identity to a gender-related label...

I most demonstrably don't. I think it's rather silly honestly.

[Jormengand]

I wonder how many LGBT people tie their self-identity to a gender-related label...

I don't have a monolithic thing called a "Self-identity" so I guess I tie part of it to a gender-related label. I'm genderfluid. I'm also 19 years old. I'm also a computer scientist. Are these part of my self-identity? Well I guess, but it's really just a list of things which are true about me at this point.

[Heliomance]

I wonder how many LGBT people tie their self-identity to a gender-related label...

Not entirely sure what you mean. Elaborate?

[Murk]

I don't have a monolithic thing called a "Self-identity" so I guess I tie part of it to a gender-related label. I'm genderfluid. I'm also 19 years old. I'm also a computer scientist. Are these part of my self-identity? Well I guess, but it's really just a list of things which are true about me at this point.

I'm not sure about the terminology, but I think those are all part of what people regularly call "self-identity".
Imagine having to write ten times "I am [...]" and then filling in the dots. Which ten things that you are come to mind the quickest? Is your gender one of the ten? Your eye colour? Your job, your nationality, your sports club, the size of your nose?
There is of course no reason to go for ten things instead of any other number, but it can give you a good sense of priority (I read an interesting research that seemed to show that people from Western Europe, for example, would write down individual character traits much more, and people from Eastern Asian countries would more often write down groups that they are a part of. Just as an example).

I might be wrong, but if I'd had to guess, I'd say that's martyix's question: for how many people is their gender an actual important part of their identity, and for how many is it not very important?
(For me, personally, I guess I'd write down my gender somewhere around "I am [...]" 25, I think. I don't really care about it, but it can be a useful label)

[Serpentine]

I wonder how many LGBT people tie their self-identity to a gender-related label...

I mean, you could ask this about non-LGBT people as well...

[Lycunadari]

I think whether a certain aspect of someone makes it into their self identity depends at least partially on how often or how much that aspect has an influence on your life which to a certain extend is also related to how unusual it is. Say you're a natural redhead - you'll probably occasionally get people commenting on your haircolour, positively or negatively (a lot of people admire red hair, but I've also heard that red haired children often get bullied for their hair.) So I wouldn't be surprised if "natural redhead" would make it high on the "I am ..." list - probably higher than having brown or black hair. Or if you live abroad, your ethnicity might get a higher spot than it would if you lived in your home country, because then it's something unusual.
Tying that back to gender - for trans people gender influences life a lot. Taking HRT pills every morning, getting misgendered, seeing a therapist for gender related reasons, getting more comfortable with your body, being called different names when you're only out to some people... and simply the fact that you have to start thinking about gender a lot to figure out you're trans in the first place, makes gender quite important for trans people, so for a lot of trans people it's likely to be an important part of their identity (being genderfluid would definitely make it into the first 10 "I am" sentences for me).
To a lesser extend that probably also applies to cis non-straight people. Being attracted to a gender you are not "supposed" to be attracted to according to society is in itself a sort of being gender nonconforming, and people love making a fuss around it, so I'd expect that on average, gender is going to be more important to queer people than to cis Straight people.
Similarly, I think cis Straight people will also have their gender being more important to their self identity when they are in a position where it is unusual or comes up more often, like women working in STEM fields or stay at home dads.

[Murk]

I think whether a certain aspect of someone makes it into their self identity depends at least partially on how often or how much that aspect has an influence on your life which to a certain extend is also related to how unusual it is. Say you're a natural redhead - you'll probably occasionally get people commenting on your haircolour, positively or negatively (a lot of people admire red hair, but I've also heard that red haired children often get bullied for their hair.) So I wouldn't be surprised if "natural redhead" would make it high on the "I am ..." list - probably higher than having brown or black hair. Or if you live abroad, your ethnicity might get a higher spot than it would if you lived in your home country, because then it's something unusual.
Tying that back to gender - for trans people gender influences life a lot. Taking HRT pills every morning, getting misgendered, seeing a therapist for gender related reasons, getting more comfortable with your body, being called different names when you're only out to some people... and simply the fact that you have to start thinking about gender a lot to figure out you're trans in the first place, makes gender quite important for trans people, so for a lot of trans people it's likely to be an important part of their identity (being genderfluid would definitely make it into the first 10 "I am" sentences for me).

I'd assume so, yes, but it would be cool to see some data on it.
Also, if there is an inverse correlation too: if you could, say, "predict" the chances of someone being trans by looking how much they care about gender in the first place (this seems a lot less probable to me, but again, it would be cool to see some data on it).

I'm probably straying far away from Martixy's original question here, though.

[Ursus the Grim]

I mean, you could ask this about non-LGBT people as well...

And I suspect you'd get drastically different answers between the two.

For me, I'm 'B the gamer'. Its only when issues like this come up or when someone explicitly asks me about it that I think 'straight white cis-male'. I don't make those explicit parts of my self-identity because I don't think they're that important. I don't (and can't) take pride in being straight or white.

Tying back into Lycunadari's point, it must have something to do with how much adversity you face regarding that part of who you are.

From the outside looking in, my first gay friend was a guy named F. F seemed to have pretty good support at school, nobody messed with him and he was universally liked. F was the school musical star (of course) and a martial arts enthusiast - he was my senpai in kendo and held a black belt in a discipline I can't recall.

When I think of F, I think 'oh, my kendo senpai' or 'oh, my understudy for the school play', and though I feel a little guilty for the latter (he probably deserved the role more) I never think 'oh, the gay kid.' That's probably hampering my attempts to understand why and how people come to base the majority of their identity on whom they're attracted to or what they define their gender as. If he had been visibly bullied in school because of it, I'd probably get stuck thinking 'oh, the kid who got bullied because he was gay.'

I have the mindset of 'being LGBT' shouldn't be a big deal. But I'm starting to see how people who have faced a lot of adversity because of that part of their identity have had to galvanize and bolster it in response.

[Lycunadari]

Interesting (and quite sad) article about the poor (mental) health amongst gay men. Trigger warning for suicide, addiction, bullying, homophobia and more I might have missed.

It's exclusively talking about (cis) and mostly white gay men, but a lot of the things discussed inside also apply to other queer people (and possibly other minorities).

One thing I found especially interesting was the concept of "minority stress" :

In its most direct form, it’s pretty simple: Being a member of a marginalized group requires extra effort. When you’re the only woman at a business meeting, or the only black guy in your college dorm, you have to think on a level that members of the majority don’t. If you stand up to your boss, or fail to, are you playing into stereotypes of women in the workplace? If you don’t ace a test, will people think it’s because of your race? Even if you don’t experience overt stigma, considering these possibilities takes its toll over time.

For gay people, the effect is magnified by the fact that our minority status is hidden. Not only do we have to do all this extra work and answer all these internal questions when we’re 12, but we also have to do it without being able to talk to our friends or parents about it.

John Pachankis, a stress researcher at Yale, says the real damage gets done in the five or so years between realizing your sexuality and starting to tell other people. Even relatively small stressors in this period have an outsized effect—not because they’re directly traumatic, but because we start to expect them. “No one has to call you queer for you to adjust your behavior to avoid being called that,” Salway says.

One of the most striking studies I found described the spike in anxiety and depression among gay men in 2004 and 2005, the years when 14 states passed constitutional amendments defining marriage as being between a man and a woman. Gay men in those states showed a 37 percent increase in mood disorders, a 42 percent increase in alcoholism and a 248 percent increase in generalized anxiety disorder.

The most chilling thing about those numbers is that the legal rights of gay people living in those states didn’t materially change. We couldn’t get married in Michigan before the amendment passed, and we couldn’t get married in Michigan after it passed. The laws were symbolic. They were the majority’s way of informing gay people that we weren’t wanted. What’s worse, the rates of anxiety and depression didn’t just jump in the states that passed constitutional amendments. They increased (though less dramatically) among gay people across the entire country. The campaign to make us suffer worked.

That's something I've noticed as well - even though my family and friends are really accepting, and I've never personally been called slurs for being queer, I'm sure the way society at large is still treating queer people is part of the reason for my bad mental health. I'm always worrying that new people I meet will reject me for being queer, so I'm afraid of opening up to people and don't really make new friends, which makes me lonely, leading to my depression getting worse. And while I'm proud of being queer, and happy to be queer, and I'd never chose to be straight, it still causes me to be always anxious, and always depressed.

Another thing in the article is how toxic the gay community often is:

The word I hear from Paul, from everyone, is “re-traumatized.” You grow up with this loneliness, accumulating all this baggage, and then you arrive in the Castro or Chelsea or Boystown thinking you’ll finally be accepted for who you are. And then you realize that everyone else here has baggage, too. All of a sudden it’s not your gayness that gets you rejected. It’s your weight, or your income, or your race. “The bullied kids of our youth,” Paul says, “grew up and became bullies themselves.”

For other minority groups, living in a community with people like them is linked to lower rates of anxiety and depression. It helps to be close to people who instinctively understand you. But for us, the effect is the opposite. Several studies have found that living in gay neighborhoods predicts higher rates of risky sex and meth use and less time spent on other community activities like volunteering or playing sports. A 2009 study suggested that gay men who were more linked to the gay community were less satisfied with their own romantic relationships.

“Gay and bisexual men talk about the gay community as a significant source of stress in their lives,” Pachankis says. The fundamental reason for this, he says, is that “in-group discrimination” does more harm to your psyche than getting rejected by members of the majority. It’s easy to ignore, roll your eyes and put a middle finger up to straight people who don’t like you because, whatever, you don’t need their approval anyway. Rejection from other gay people, though, feels like losing your only way of making friends and finding love. Being pushed away from your own people hurts more because you need them more.

I'm wondering if this is one of the reasons why cis gay men are often more sexist, transphobic and biphobic than cis straight people - it's a community with a lot of intra-community bullying, so they feel powerless (both against straight society, and against other gay men who are fitter/stronger/taller etc) and start punching down, re-traumatizing the bi and trans (and ace, pan, etc) people who expected to feel welcome in a community of other "social outcasts".

[Astrella]

*nod* Minority stress is an important factor in why poor people / people that are part of other minorities tend to have elevated risks of mental health issues. It's an important concept.

[Ursus the Grim]

I have a question. It’s not about LGBTQAI+, but I would appreciate answers from an equity perspective and I think that is more likely here than if I just start a new thread in the general discussion. If it is inappropriate to ask this question here, please feel free to delete it and I will post it elsewhere.

I am a cis straight white male with a wife, career and two young sons, and I’m working on a campaign I’m going to run via PbP at another site. My concern is whether I’ve included subject matter that could be triggering to some potential gamers and whether the things I’ve done to minimize that are sufficient.

Spoiler: potential triggers: rape, kidnapping, abortion

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The game will start with the PCs involved in a search for signs of a missing woman, the daughter of a wealthy merchant. The PCs will be one group of several searching the surrounding hillsides for signs of what happened to her. Two hobgoblins were slain by the town guard at the missing woman’s last known location, so it is believed that hobgoblins are responsible (they are not).

The real captors are another group of adventurers who have been looking for a secret entrance to the same megadungeon that the PCs are interested in searching. These adventurers have found a dungeon beneath an abandoned mine and have captured a Skum whom they have been trying to get information from. They eventually realize that torture doesn’t work, but that it will speak if it is allowed to “have sons”(because that’s what Skum do). So these adventurers have been providing it with women in exchange for information about the megadungeon. The PCs will come along and have to face the evil adventurers (one of which has realized they have done wrong but is too scared to go against the others, and might be convinced by the PCs to surrender), then the Skum, then find the women he has kidnapped in his lair. The first woman (a former member of the evil adventurers before they went bad) died fighting the Skum off before anything could happen (maybe even taking her own life). The second is a poor prostitute who thinks the child she bears might have been from the (evil) bard who seduced her and wants to keep it. The third (merchant’s daughter) will ask the PCs to discretely go purchase herbs that will abort it, other herbs that will make her forget what happened, and then pays them to never come back to town again. The regretful evil PC (a gnome) will help the prostitute raise the child as penance for his crimes (assuming the PCs let this happen), though the merchant’s daughter never forgives him for his part in it.

Things that will not happen:

Anything remotely sexual is completely “off screen”. The PCs show up afterwards.

The PCs will not be allowed to have romantic relationships with any of these women: any interactions with these NPCs will be to show how truly traumatic this experience was for them. They might have “saved” them, but they haven’t truly saved them.

Why I want to use this scenario:

There are lots of things I like about this idea: a cautionary tale about the perils of the adventuring life and the lust for gold (a sort of Lord of the Flies aspect in a way), a cautionary tale about popular perceptions and stereotypes (with the initial search focusing on the hobgoblins), a connection to the deeper horrors of the megadungeon (which drove some of the evil adventurers towards taking these evil actions when they were initially less inclined to do so), and the reality of those damaged by rape (to counter the tendency of our culture to normalize it).

Why I am cautious about this:

Neither I nor anyone currently important in my life (that I know of) has experienced rape, so as much as I don’t want to normalize it, I fear I might trivialize it unintentionally.

There is already so much of this in the genre (Game of Thrones, not uncommon in published RPG material, and all the horror stories I’ve heard about what some women have to put up with in game stores) that I wonder if even as careful as I’m trying to be here, it’s just better to avoid using rape in the story at all.

So what should I do? Have I taken enough precautions in the aftermath of the event? Is there something else I should try? Should I scrap the idea altogether?

Its a bit off topic, but here's my take.

Spoiler: At least it's a bump. . . .

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Since you thought it a relevant detail, this is coming from another straight white cismale.

This is frankly going to depend on your players. You really need to know how comfortable they are with this subject matter. I assume they are mature enough to not try and make fun of it, but that doesn't mean they are comfortable with it.

I've got a dark sense of humor and a habit of being inappropriate and rape is still my number one trigger (well, tied for it). If you are really attached to it, you might be better served by never directly referring to it. Let the players draw their own conclusions and take those details where they want.

It's often used pretty cheaply as a plot device, and I think you can do better than "Heroes avenge the rape victims".

[noparlpf]

I have a question. It’s not about LGBTQAI+, but I would appreciate answers from an equity perspective and I think that is more likely here than if I just start a new thread in the general discussion. If it is inappropriate to ask this question here, please feel free to delete it and I will post it elsewhere.

I am a cis straight white male with a wife, career and two young sons, and I’m working on a campaign I’m going to run via PbP at another site. My concern is whether I’ve included subject matter that could be triggering to some potential gamers and whether the things I’ve done to minimize that are sufficient.

Spoiler: potential triggers: rape, kidnapping, abortion

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The game will start with the PCs involved in a search for signs of a missing woman, the daughter of a wealthy merchant. The PCs will be one group of several searching the surrounding hillsides for signs of what happened to her. Two hobgoblins were slain by the town guard at the missing woman’s last known location, so it is believed that hobgoblins are responsible (they are not).

The real captors are another group of adventurers who have been looking for a secret entrance to the same megadungeon that the PCs are interested in searching. These adventurers have found a dungeon beneath an abandoned mine and have captured a Skum whom they have been trying to get information from. They eventually realize that torture doesn’t work, but that it will speak if it is allowed to “have sons” (because that’s what Skum do). So these adventurers have been providing it with women in exchange for information about the megadungeon. The PCs will come along and have to face the evil adventurers (one of which has realized they have done wrong but is too scared to go against the others, and might be convinced by the PCs to surrender), then the Skum, then find the women he has kidnapped in his lair. The first woman (a former member of the evil adventurers before they went bad) died fighting the Skum off before anything could happen (maybe even taking her own life). The second is a poor prostitute who thinks the child she bears might have been from the (evil) bard who seduced her and wants to keep it. The third (merchant’s daughter) will ask the PCs to discretely go purchase herbs that will abort it, other herbs that will make her forget what happened, and then pays them to never come back to town again. The regretful evil PC (a gnome) will help the prostitute raise the child as penance for his crimes (assuming the PCs let this happen), though the merchant’s daughter never forgives him for his part in it.

Things that will not happen:

Anything remotely sexual is completely “off screen”. The PCs show up afterwards.

The PCs will not be allowed to have romantic relationships with any of these women: any interactions with these NPCs will be to show how truly traumatic this experience was for them. They might have “saved” them, but they haven’t truly saved them.

Why I want to use this scenario:

There are lots of things I like about this idea: a cautionary tale about the perils of the adventuring life and the lust for gold (a sort of Lord of the Flies aspect in a way), a cautionary tale about popular perceptions and stereotypes (with the initial search focusing on the hobgoblins), a connection to the deeper horrors of the megadungeon (which drove some of the evil adventurers towards taking these evil actions when they were initially less inclined to do so), and the reality of those damaged by rape (to counter the tendency of our culture to normalize it).

Why I am cautious about this:

Neither I nor anyone currently important in my life (that I know of) has experienced rape, so as much as I don’t want to normalize it, I fear I might trivialize it unintentionally.

There is already so much of this in the genre (Game of Thrones, not uncommon in published RPG material, and all the horror stories I’ve heard about what some women have to put up with in game stores) that I wonder if even as careful as I’m trying to be here, it’s just better to avoid using rape in the story at all.

So what should I do? Have I taken enough precautions in the aftermath of the event? Is there something else I should try? Should I scrap the idea altogether?

Well, first of all, yeah, this isn't really the appropriate thread for this.

Secondly, I'm not a fan of the premise.

Spoiler

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You could accomplish more or less the same thing with kidnapping and murder, which is already an accepted part of the genre, without going all the way to rape. That goes double for straight cis male story writers, who are the ones who most need to stop using rape as a cheap plot device to motivate the (usually also straight male) protagonist(s). Judging by your post you seem to be aware of this and were hoping to address it, but I think you pretty much nailed it with your "why I am cautious about this" paragraph. There's already too much use of rape as a plot device, it's a very difficult subject to handle appropriately, and if it's pbp, you won't necessarily know the players well enough to know how they will handle the subjects of rape and abortion. I can't really see it working out that well. If you want to highlight how the genre normalises violence while ignoring its long-term effects, I think you can explore that well enough using kidnap/torture/murder. Those are already plenty traumatic.

[goatmeal]

Thank you both for your responses. I think I will put this idea on hold for now and just use an AL or something instead.

Also, sorry for the off topic question. I will try to delete my original post.

[Svata]

Ok guys. I am deeeeeeeeply confused right now. Can anyone tell me if there's any truth to this, or is this person just being kinda... look, Idk what even to call it. Can someone please explain this to me if it is true? Please? If I'm in the wrong, I would like to know so that I can improve myself and not be anymore.




https://twitter.com/valeriekeefe/sta...15895286611968






Pls help.

[Jormengand]

Ok guys. I am deeeeeeeeply confused right now. Can anyone tell me if there's any truth to this, or is this person just being kinda... look, Idk what even to call it. Can someone please explain this to me if it is true? Please? If I'm in the wrong, I would like to know so that I can improve myself and not be anymore.




https://twitter.com/valeriekeefe/sta...15895286611968






Pls help.

I'm pretty sure that person just doesn't know what words mean.

[Iruka]

It seems I'm completely out of the loop. Don't even know what CAMAB means.

[Svata]

I'm pretty sure that person just doesn't know what words mean.

Ok, good. That was my gut feeling, but I've been wrong before. (and I learned I was wrong and I changed, and now I'm a better person :D )


Also, Iruka, it means "coercively assigned male at birth".

[BiblioRook]

So I never posted here, largely since I rarely actually leave the Media sub-forum I guess, but it there always was quite a lot I desired to talk about with myself and understanding where I fit in the LGBTQ+ community and so, it being Pride Month, I felt it was as good as a time as any to just do it...
Sorry if it reads weird, I'm kind of copy-and-pasting it from where I wrote it out elsewhere and it was hard enough to write then and I'm not entirely sure I would be able to write it out a second time without chickening out and just not bothering...

[CWater]

So I never posted here, largely since I rarely actually leave the Media sub-forum I guess, but it there always was quite a lot I desired to talk about with myself and understanding where I fit in the LGBTQ+ community and so, it being Pride Month, I felt it was as good as a time as any to just do it...
Sorry if it reads weird, I'm kind of copy-and-pasting it from where I wrote it out elsewhere and it was hard enough to write then and I'm not entirely sure I would be able to write it out a second time without chickening out and just not bothering...

Anyways:

Hi, welcome! But you should perhaps move (or repost) this in the other thread. That's the main support thread, this is more for questions.

Unless there was a particular question that I missed. If so, maybe try put it in bold?