LGBTAI+ Question and Discussion Thread III: Third Time's A Charm

[AmberVael]

I have a question, are trans. people willing to date other Trans people?

Trans people dating other trans people is fairly common, so in general I'd say yes. We're not a monolith though, so exceptions probably exist.

If not that sounds like a huge hypocrisy.

...

If yes that sounds like way solution to most of trans people dating issues, isn't it?

I wouldn't say this is a solution to trans dating issues in general. Acceptance within a small group isn't a solution to being shunned by a far larger group. It's nice, it's helpful, but it hasn't fixed the broken dynamic.

[Shamash]

To me it means someone who understands what you have been through, your hardships, issues and demands.

[Recherché]

I have a question, are trans. people willing to date other Trans people?

If not that sounds like a huge hypocrisy.

If yes that sounds like way solution to most of trans people dating issues, isn't it?

I know a married couple who are both trans. So at least anecdotally it happens. However expecting trans people to only date other trans people seems problematic at best.

[Shamash]

I know a married couple who are both trans. So at least anecdotally it happens. However expecting trans people to only date other trans people seems problematic at best.

Oh, I see now how what is said could be read that way

That wasn't my intention. Sorry, I just see so many trans people trying to date CIS people and getting frustrated on how they are not able to understand them.

[golentan]

Most relationships don't work out one way or another, and often people like to complain about it (see how often you hear straight people make a sweeping complaint about "men/women"). Based on my experiences, trans people dating trans people is disproportionately likely compared to how many trans folks are in the general pop.

Coming in asking a yes or no question about people's dating habits and saying "one makes you a hypocrite, the other solves your problems," kind of... off put me.

[Shamash]

Most relationships don't work out one way or another, and often people like to complain about it (see how often you hear straight people make a sweeping complaint about "men/women"). Based on my experiences, trans people dating trans people is disproportionately likely compared to how many trans folks are in the general pop.

Coming in asking a yes or no question about people's dating habits and saying "one makes you a hypocrite, the other solves your problems," kind of... off put me.

Sorry you are correct, deleted it.

[EternalMelon]

I have a question, are trans. people willing to date other Trans people?

If not that sounds like a huge hypocrisy.

If yes that sounds like way solution to most of trans people dating issues, isn't it?

Trans people in theory should be willing to date other trans people, as long as all the hundreds of conditions for attraction match up.

To me it means someone who understands what you have been through, your hardships, issues and demands.

Not every trans person experiences being trans the same way. Take passing for example; someone who can pass easily or is less bothered by not passing might cause friction in a relationship with someone who is agitated by their inability to pass.

Oh, I see now how what is said could be read that way

That wasn't my intention. Sorry, I just see so many trans people trying to date CIS people and getting frustrated on how they are not able to understand them.

Hey, don't fret about asking what might be an off colour question, and thank you for apologizing.

And trans people should be able to date cis people if they want, and just as Trans people don't necessarily understand the needs of a Trans person a Cis person is capable of understanding/tolerating/empathizing/accepting/ect the issues that Trans people have in the sphere of dating. As long as they put the effort into it and the transperson is willing/cap to help educate

Most relationships don't work out one way or another, and often people like to complain about it (see how often you hear straight people make a sweeping complaint about "men/women").

And of course, everything gol said here is important.

[golentan]

Hey, don't fret about asking what might be an off colour question, and thank you for apologizing.

Seconded. It is kind of the mission statement of the thread.

[lio45]

Also, generally speaking, I wouldn't call having deal-breakers you don't satisfy yourself "hypocrisy". Especially if you're honest about it.

For example, I've known overweight people who weren't attracted by overweight people (and yeah, they admitted they weren't really in a position to "demand"...) but they couldn't help it - it's how attraction works.

If the other person has a different set of deal-breakers, the relationship can very well work fine.

[WarKitty]

Also, generally speaking, I wouldn't call having deal-breakers you don't satisfy yourself "hypocrisy". Especially if you're honest about it.

For example, I've known overweight people who weren't attracted by overweight people (and yeah, they admitted they weren't really in a position to "demand"...) but they couldn't help it - it's how attraction works.

If the other person has a different set of deal-breakers, the relationship can very well work fine.

Heck, technically that's how heterosexual relationships between straight people work.

[EternalMelon]

Also, generally speaking, I wouldn't call having deal-breakers you don't satisfy yourself "hypocrisy". Especially if you're honest about it.

For example, I've known overweight people who weren't attracted by overweight people (and yeah, they admitted they weren't really in a position to "demand"...) but they couldn't help it - it's how attraction works.

If the other person has a different set of deal-breakers, the relationship can very well work fine.

Just to be clear we are talking about aversions to Trans-byproducts like equipment and passing as apposed to deal breakers in spite of otherwise passes in compatibility and attraction right?

[Prospekt]

To me it means someone who understands what you have been through, your hardships, issues and demands.

One of the reasons I've been in a relationship with another trans woman for over 5 years is because of this, yes. (The biggest reason of course is that we actually love each other very very much.) It's also just because- and sorry if this sounds a bit rude- I don't want to be a cis person's learning experience. I do personally know cis people who are cool with trans people and know more about us than you'd expect, but it's still a risk with relationships. There's dealing with the fact that they may not be comfortable with how our bodies change. They may not be comfortable with the things we want to do with our bodies. I've seen trans women with cis partners who disagree with what they want for themselves personally. That's why I'm personally not interested in cis people. Plus, you know, you never hear of another trans person murdering another person for finding out that they're trans.

[lio45]

Just to be clear we are talking about aversions to Trans-byproducts like equipment and passing as apposed to deal breakers in spite of otherwise passes in compatibility and attraction right?

I just wanted to point out the general idea that was being floated that it would be hypocrisy to simply be attracted to whatever you happen to be attracted to, regardless of yourself, is wrong.

[EternalMelon]

I just wanted to point out the general idea that was being floated that it would be hypocrisy to simply be attracted to whatever you happen to be attracted to, regardless of yourself, is wrong.

Ah, I see now. Thanks.

[WarKitty]

Do you think there's a social component to who does and does not decide to identify as transgender? I was thinking about how, statistically, there's more trans women than trans men. One of the possible reasons presented for this is that being a woman with masculine traits is more acceptable than being a man with feminine traits. I, as a cisish woman, can put on a sports bra, shave my head, put on a flannel button-down and cargo pants from the men's department, and still not be regarded as crossdressing or seriously outside the bounds of acceptable behavior for a woman. It might get a bit of side-eye. But compare that to the reaction if a male-identified individual were to put on a dress, carry a handbag, and paint his nails.

I'm wondering if that has some impact on who identifies as transgender.

[Astrella]

Do you think there's a social component to who does and does not decide to identify as transgender? I was thinking about how, statistically, there's more trans women than trans men. One of the possible reasons presented for this is that being a woman with masculine traits is more acceptable than being a man with feminine traits. I, as a cisish woman, can put on a sports bra, shave my head, put on a flannel button-down and cargo pants from the men's department, and still not be regarded as crossdressing or seriously outside the bounds of acceptable behavior for a woman. It might get a bit of side-eye. But compare that to the reaction if a male-identified individual were to put on a dress, carry a handbag, and paint his nails.

I'm wondering if that has some impact on who identifies as transgender.

Most recent research actually shows that amab and afab people transition at similar rates these days; but social factors do of course influence things; just look at different cultural interpretations of gender and transness.

[golentan]

Most recent research actually shows that amab and afab people transition at similar rates these days; but social factors do of course influence things; just look at different cultural interpretations of gender and transness.

As someone living in santa cruz and who has on numerous occasions gotten to visit the castro... People might also self segregate into or out of certain communities, throwing off samples.

[Mari_Lilac]

Most recent research actually shows that amab and afab people transition at similar rates these days; but social factors do of course influence things; just look at different cultural interpretations of gender and transness.

There's also the issue that because transness is read so differently in trans men and trans women, many trans men might just be assumed by cis peeps to be butch lesbians, or well tomboyish women (What's a grownup tomboy? Butch is a lesbian identity afaik?) reinforcing the notion that trans women are more common.

[Knaight]

There's also the issue that because transness is read so differently in trans men and trans women, many trans men might just be assumed by cis peeps to be butch lesbians, or well tomboyish women (What's a grownup tomboy? Butch is a lesbian identity afaik?) reinforcing the notion that trans women are more common.

This seems unlikely - both trans men and trans women are relatively small fractions of the population, to the point where the general population noticing a difference in size there (and thus being skewed by all the people who aren't counted) is likely to be a fairly small factor. Widespread media panic aimed vastly more towards trans women on the other hand...

[ArlEammon]

Does anyone know how to use the Bro app? I keep trying to put it on my phone and it keeps saying I need to post more on my "about me" section. :/

[Comrade]

Er, I suspect you'll have better luck contacting customer service for that app than asking here.

[ArlEammon]

Er, I suspect you'll have better luck contacting customer service for that app than asking here.

I got it done anyway. LoL.

[Zendy]

Hello all, I have a question.

I have this friend who everyone think is really handsome, we are very close, he is like my best friend, and every girl we meet confess that they have a crush on him to me and ask me to be their wingman.

Anyway, I think he is rather plain looking, but since everyone thinks he is super hot I guess he is? Even my mom once commented on his beauty -_-

I have to admit he is really charismatic, something on his voice is really charming and alluring, my point is that he could have any girl he want with little to no difficulty.

In the end of 2015 he started dating a girl.

I just found out yesterday that she is not "cis" but rather a trans woman, I found that intriguing and asked him why date a M -> F woman since he identify as straight and he told me he found her body and the fact she was trans really hot.

What I want to ask you guys is, what do you think about this whole thing? Is the fact that he likes her mainly because of a sexual thing, he finds her trans status something attractive that turns him on, something good or is this type of fetishization of trans bodies something harmful?

Don’t get me wrong he seems to be genuinely liking her, they are together for almost three years now and they even moved to the same apartment but still strike me as odd that the main factor that lead them to be a couple was so sexual. I mean he is a very sexual person and maybe that was only what started and he grow to love her for personality but still my question stays.

What you guys think? Good or bad? Healthy or harmful?

[Knaight]

I just found out yesterday that she is not really a girl per se but rather a trans woman, I found that intriguing and asked him why date a M -> F woman since he identify as straight and he told me he found her body and the fact she was trans really hot.

Trans women are really women. Men dating trans women is an indicator that they have a sexuality that includes dating women, a category that includes straight.

[Lissou]

What you guys think? Good or bad? Healthy or harmful?

I think the harm is when a fetish leads you to objectify people (who don't want to be objectified). In this case they're in a steady relationship, and he finds the fact that she's trans hot, but from what you've said we don't even know if that's why he started being interested in her or if he learned it later on (you learned it later on so I'm guessing she passes well?). At any rate, it seems like they have an actual relationship, and the fact that it started sexual isn't necessarily a problem. Dan Savage has talked about how his relationship with his husband started as a one night stand, and when his husband went to take a shower, he (Dan Savage), rushed to get the guy's wallet to look at his ID because he had forgotten his name (but the sex was so good he wanted to see him again I'm guessing). Other people have relationships that started as Craiglist ads for a particular fetish. You can have an awesome, deep relationship that started purely sexual. (You can also have awesome relationships that stay purely sexual by the way).

At any rate, it doesn't seem like he's using transwomen and dating one after the other, having sex with her and then dumping her or something. I can't tell you how the attraction would feel to his girlfriend because that's something that depends on the person so you really would need to ask her. Some people will be uncomfortable with it, some will embrace it. It depends on a lot of things, including how much disphoria they have and whether they plan on transitioning more (for instance if someone loves their penis but they're planning on having bottom surgery).

At any rate, I don't see any reason to worry from what you've told us.

[Eldest]

In the end of 2015 he started dating a girl.

I just found out yesterday that she is not really a girl per se but rather a trans woman, I found that intriguing and asked him why date a M -> F woman since he identify as straight and he told me he found her body and the fact she was trans really hot.

What I want to ask you guys is, what do you think about this whole thing? Is the fact that he likes her mainly because of a sexual thing, he finds her trans status something attractive that turns him on, something good or is this type of fetishization of trans bodies something harmful?

Don’t get me wrong he seems to be genuinely liking her, they are together for almost three years now and they even moved to the same apartment but still strike me as odd that the main factor that lead them to be a couple was so sexual. I mean he is a very sexual person and maybe that was only what started and he grow to love her for personality but still my question stays.

What you guys think? Good or bad? Healthy or harmful?

The fact that you think we (transwomen) can only get dates by being fetishized... that worries me. Unless he's stated to you that he's interested in her sexually because of her being trans, that seems like an unfounded assumption to me.

[golentan]

Sounds to me like you asked some uncomfortably personal questions and intimated he might not be straight, and he responded with "I am straight and my girlfriend is sexy."

And now you're making insulting comments about his attractiveness and insulting transwomen online, and basically offering various sly slanders against his person, identity, and grossly insulting ones against hers.

This isn't a good look on you.

[Zendy]

Trans women are really women. Men dating trans women is an indicator that they have a sexuality that includes dating women, a category that includes straight.

I know that’s not my point.

The fact that you think we (transwomen) can only get dates by being fetishized... that worries me. Unless he's stated to you that he's interested in her sexually because of her being trans, that seems like an unfounded assumption to me.

I don’t, please don't assume you know what I think, that's rude arrogant and pretentious, I know that some can find real love, some don’t (to be honest all trans people I know are or were prostitutes) my point is if you think a relationship who started in fetishization is good and healthy or something bad.

Sounds to me like you asked some uncomfortably personal questions and intimated he might not be straight, and he responded with "I am straight and my girlfriend is sexy."

And now you're making insulting comments about his attractiveness and insulting transwomen online, and basically offering various sly slanders against his person, identity, and grossly insulting ones against hers.

This isn't a good look on you.

We are good friends and he is very open about his sex life, mostly because I’m not a very big fan of sex in the first place and he almost has satyromania.

The point I was trying to make is that he is a very sexual person and someone who can easily start a relationship with any kind of girl and he choose to date a trans despite having so many other options which I think is valid and relevant I did it with no ill intentions.

I did no such things and I meant no harm, I would ask for forgiveness but all I said was said with no intention of harming others and since others seem to not be offended I will take that maybe you need to grow a thicker skin? This is the questions thread and not knowing is not a sin, can you turn that heterophobia down please? Thanks, I’m sorry if anything I said was offensive, I can’t see where and you haven’t pointed out where so I will just conclude that not everything is an attack sometimes people just don’t know any better, I hope this won’t make you think less of me.

I think the harm is when a fetish leads you to objectify people (who don't want to be objectified).

Hummm... That makes sense but are there people who are ok with being objectified?

In this case they're in a steady relationship, and he finds the fact that she's trans hot, but from what you've said we don't even know if that's why he started being interested in her or if he learned it later on (you learned it later on so I'm guessing she passes well?).

She does! Not only does she looks like a girl she looks like a very pretty one, above average looks, but when she starts talking you can clearly see that she was originally a man, that's how I found out about it (And confirmed by stalking her social media).

At any rate, it seems like they have an actual relationship, and the fact that it started sexual isn't necessarily a problem.

Isn't it? By what he said he knew she was trans found that hot and that's why they started dating, unlike the non-trans girls he dated who shared the same interests as him.

Dan Savage has talked about how his relationship with his husband started as a one night stand, and when his husband went to take a shower, he (Dan Savage), rushed to get the guy's wallet to look at his ID because he had forgotten his name (but the sex was so good he wanted to see him again I'm guessing). Other people have relationships that started as Craiglist ads for a particular fetish. You can have an awesome, deep relationship that started purely sexual. (You can also have awesome relationships that stay purely sexual by the way).

I don't doubt that such relationship are real I'm asking if they are good or healthy.

At any rate, it doesn't seem like he's using transwomen and dating one after the other, having sex with her and then dumping her or something. I can't tell you how the attraction would feel to his girlfriend because that's something that depends on the person so you really would need to ask her. Some people will be uncomfortable with it, some will embrace it. It depends on a lot of things, including how much disphoria they have and whether they plan on transitioning more (for instance if someone loves their penis but they're planning on having bottom surgery).

Yeah, I'm not friends with her so asking her is not really possible. By what he told me she has a **** and plans to keep, I don’t know if she uses it on him or not.

So I guess it all boils down on "if they are ok with it it's fine" I get that but let's stop focusing on him and his gf and generalize it to this kind of dating as whole, a guy who dates a trans woman because trans folk turn him on is a good or a bad thing? I believe that trans people have many dating issues is this kind of stuff something better and a good prospect or part of the problem?

At any rate, I don't see any reason to worry from what you've told us.

Good to know, I really like him and she seems like a good girl, I wish the best for them and would hate to see that they are stuck in a harmful situation.

[golentan]

You said he was unattractive, you asserted the relationship was based off of fetishization based on nothing more than him saying he found her body really attractive as you put it and asked your only question around said fetishization in a multi year relationship, which... anyway, you dismissed her identity as not really a girl, and in your explicit non-apology you implied most trans people are prostitutes and therefore unable to find love which... anyway, and used the word heterophobia to dismiss upset directed at you.

The reasons I think less of you are only partially ignorance related, and are nothing to do with your sexuality or gender.

[Rain Dragon]

Re good, bad, unhealthy, healthy question, I think it depends a lot more on context for each case.

For this one, if I'm reading right you said your friend is really into his girlfriend and only one of the reasons is she's trans. As posters above mentioned, lots of good relationships started from lots of different reasons. You said they'd been together almost three years and so from just the story and that, their relationship is probably good and healthy. How or why it started is probably rather small compared to how or why it continued for three years. =p