Erfworld Thread IX: By the Flower and Gray Skull

[Xihirli]

Cities can only be built in certain areas, also. Cities are money makers, but there's a finite number of cities.

[Douglas]

Right. That mechanic is razing cities. It's apparently a big money maker for some aggressive sides.

Razing cities gets you a big influx of cash, but the question is whether it gets you more money than building the city in the first place cost, because that's what it would take for it to be a net positive. If two sides can make a mutual profit by repeatedly building, capturing, and razing the same city, then it would be the kind of mechanic that explains what I was talking about.

However, the obvious expectation would be that razing a city gets less than the cost to build the city, because all real world equivalents work that way. Under that paradigm, the aggressive razing side is able to profit only because it is always the winner so that other sides are paying the cost. Two evenly matched aggressive sides that raze each other's cities regularly would be worse off than if they left each other alone, with the loss from cities razed by the other being greater than the gain from the cities they raze themselves.

[eschmenk]

However, the obvious expectation would be that razing a city gets less than the cost to build the city, because all real world equivalents work that way.

Yes, but building and razing is done is such an artificial way that I wouldn't rule anything out.

[lord_khaine]

The difference in prices would be absurdly high. Razing a city loses both its income, and the price it takes to build it back up to level 5.
And im honestly certain Parson would have remarked up it if that were the case.

[guttering flame]

There's an alternative explanation. During war-times the economic costs of maintaining your own side go down. A sort of wartime economy.

[Xihirli]

Wartime economies do well at the expense of a nation's treasury. The treasury seems to be the only economy any one Side has.

[guttering flame]

Wartime economies do well at the expense of a nation's treasury. The treasury seems to be the only economy any one Side has.

Just because (if my theory is true) costs go down doesn't mean the side doesn't splurge-spend its treasury on expensive magic scrolls and such. You can go broke even in good conditions.

[virgileso]

I remain a firm believer that there's some sort of bounty mechanic, where you get schmuckers (subject to some formula) for every enemy unit you croak, but like leveling, you only get it if the kill was part of a *successful* engagement.

[Grim Portent]

As I recall Dirtamancers (and possibly Moneymancers) reduce the cost of upgrading cities and similar expensive projects while also making it easier and more profitable to do things like mining for gems.

I bet a side with a Dirtamancer and a Moneymancer at the same time could raze and rebuild cities for a profit, especially if they could set up a tri-link with a Thinkamancer. Problem is that's three casters who can all be used elsewhere getting sent out to participate in razing and reconstruction of hostile sites, unless you find another side with the same caster balance and work out a deal involving taking turns building and razing a city between your sides.

[Xihirli]

Just because (if my theory is true) costs go down doesn't mean the side doesn't splurge-spend its treasury on expensive magic scrolls and such. You can go broke even in good conditions.

I mean, war economies do well in our world because the intense increase of government spending drags Aggregate Demand to the right. But in Erf's economy, there is little to no relation between consumption, aggregate demand, and the economy.

[eschmenk]

The difference in prices would be absurdly high. Razing a city loses both its income, and the price it takes to build it back up to level 5.
And im honestly certain Parson would have remarked up it if that were the case.

But in Erfworld, you could build Rome in a turn. If someone attacked and razed a city, then left, the city could be rebuilt immediately, so how much income would be lost? At the same time, how reasonable is it to assume the difference couldn't be absurd? Lots of things in Erfworld are pretty absurd. Retconjuration is officially a discipline of magic, after all. How much sense does it make to sweat the details, given that? Even if you managed to figure out a detail today, that detail may not be true tomorrow, because official built-in magic.

To me, the bigger problem probably wouldn't be economics, anyway; it would be manpower, wouldn't it? Or at least that stands out more to me. If a city is contested, both sides would have to pop replacements at an incredible rate to replace their losses (assuming no necromancer with an Arkentool). Since it's normally pointless to send low level units against high level units, often higher level units would find themselves facing roughly equivalent units and there would be a good chance that they wouldn't survive. How long would it take to replace them? How many units would you loose before a unit managed to survive long enough to level up?

Normally, in PC vs. NPC games, odds are stacked in the players' favor, otherwise it's no fun for the players. That allows them to level up. Apparently there is some mechanisms in Erfworld like that, but we've heard very little mention of them. There's training, but that's apparently very slow. At one point, though, Parson mentioned something about tube sock worms, or something like that, that were apparently just there to provide an easy way for GK units to level up. Who knows how much there is in the game that's like that? Who knows how many game features we haven't heard of yet?

To me, Erfworld is much more about the characters than the Erfworld rules. I don't expect that we ever will get a complete explanation for how Erfworld works. I expect the way Erfworld works to be mostly consistent, but I also expect it to serve the needs of the plot at the moment. I expect new stuff to keep being invented at time goes on.

As I recall Dirtamancers (and possibly Moneymancers) reduce the cost of upgrading cities and similar expensive projects while also making it easier and more profitable to do things like mining for gems.

I thought I remembered something like that, too, but didn't want to mention it because I wasn't sure and didn't want to double-check. There might be other "cheats" like that, too. It's just a matter of Rob inventing them.

[DataNinja]

Well, new update.

It's certainly updating.

[-D-]

It's certainly updating.

Yes. Updating.

God, I was wrong. Text updates, give so much more meat than comics ever could. /s

I like that mid comic, Rob does a recap comic. It's like he doubts we are paying attention.

[Jasdoif]

I like that mid comic, Rob does a recap comic. It's like he doubts we are paying attention.

How many plot fragments do we have running concurrently, again? I wouldn't be particularly surprised if he needed a roster refresher himself, and decided to do it in-universe style so he can share

[-D-]

How many plot fragments do we have running concurrently, again? I wouldn't be particularly surprised if he needed a roster refresher himself, and decided to do it in-universe style so he can share

Somewhere around dozen. Possibly more *shudder* . We haven't heard from Marie... Or Trammenis.

Roster isn't complete. No listing of MK assets.

[Yana]

Sarcasm and bitterness regarding the update aside, did no one else find the apparent exchange between Stanley and Parson amusing?

Oh and Hamstard's Little Caesar gag was surprisingly funny.

[Razade]

How many plot fragments do we have running concurrently, again? I wouldn't be particularly surprised if he needed a roster refresher himself, and decided to do it in-universe style so he can share

Not as many as we did and everything's seeming to be coming back together again?

[Lizard Lord]

Yes. Updating.

God, I was wrong. Text updates, give so much more meat than comics ever could. /s

I like that mid comic, Rob does a recap comic. It's like he doubts we are paying attention.

This is no different that the Parson's notes we got in book one. If those don't count as text updates then neither does this one.

[-D-]

This is no different that the Parson's notes we got in book one. If those don't count as text updates then neither does this one.

Those did have some useful speculation tidbit. I got nothing in this update.

[Lizard Lord]

Those did have some useful speculation tidbit. I got nothing in this update.

But its not like a text update is defined by what it does or does not add. It is defined only by whether or not it comes in the form of text. The text updates have the potential to give you more and even when they give you nothing a comic update with the same content would have given you the same nothing but at a possibly slower speed. I continue to stand by the claim that the problem is the content and not the medium. If you simply prefer the comic version due to the inherent advantages of a visual medium (and the fact that most readers went into this with the impression that Erfworld would be a solely visual medium), then fine I will not argue that. But when you claim that the inherent advantages of a text based medium don't exist at all then you are objectively wrong.

[-D-]

But its not like a text update is defined by what it does or does not add. It is defined only by whether or not it comes in the form of text. The text updates have the potential to give you more and even when they give you nothing a comic update with the same content would have given you the same nothing but at a possibly slower speed.

I am just noting why I tolerated B1 text updates. They were in essence info dumps about mechanics/ new world. What new mechanic do we have in this update?

I'm merely sarcastically reflecting, "comic is slower, text update is fast".

I continue to stand by the claim that the problem is the content and not the medium. If you simply prefer the comic version due to the inherent advantages of a visual medium (and the fact that most readers went into this with the impression that Erfworld would be a solely visual medium), then fine I will not argue that. But when you claim that the inherent advantages of a text based medium don't exist at all then you are objectively wrong.

My claim was not that text updates are without merits, but that comic pacing is doggone slow. So slow, that things that are better suited for comic take longer in comic than text.

Maybe it's finally time to just **** off somewhere for a month or a year and see how this all pans out.

[DigoDragon]

Sarcasm and bitterness regarding the update aside, did no one else find the apparent exchange between Stanley and Parson amusing?

Not really. I think it would have been funny if we were shown the actual exchange, rather than told about it. The Little Caesars Hamstard thing was funny though.

Those did have some useful speculation tidbit. I got nothing in this update.

Well, Parson is chief warlord again. That's a thing now.

But its not like a text update is defined by what it does or does not add. It is defined only by whether or not it comes in the form of text.

Fair point I suppose. But then in my opinion this is a text update lacking new content. It's just a review of what we know.

[guttering flame]

The Little Caesars Hamstard thing was funny though.

What does the second one say? Can't make it out.

[DigoDragon]

What does the second one say? Can't make it out.

"Have Caesar seize her."

[Chromascope3D]

"Have Caesar seize her."

"...but I 'ardly know 'er!"

[guttering flame]

Is there a Caesar Pizza place?

[Yuki Akuma]

Is there a Caesar Pizza place?

Three seconds of Googling informed me that yes, there is.

[DigoDragon]

Three seconds of Googling informed me that yes, there is.

It's something of a no frills "fast food" pizza chain, in that they'll have premade 1-topping medium pizzas on hand for instant purchasing on the go (in addition to ordering something on the menu to be baked). The foods alright, pretty much what you'd expect for the price.

Now I'm imagining what pizza delivery would be like in Erfworld... delivery time in turns, extra charge to deliver through battle hexes, chains of flying units to expedite delivery, etc.

[-D-]

Now I'm imagining what pizza delivery would be like in Erfworld... delivery time in turns, extra charge to deliver through battle hexes, chains of flying units to expedite delivery, etc.

Or it just pops with your rations...

[DigoDragon]

Or it just pops with your rations...

Normally, but that's boring.

What if your rations don't pop a pizza and you really want one? ;)