Erfworld Thread IX: By the Flower and Gray Skull

[-D-]

Personally, I have zero problems with his tone. If I had to deal with the kind of feedback this comic gets, I'd really like to have people make suggestions about my work in a manner consistent with "treat others the way you'd like to be treated" too. Luckily I don't have to deal with so many opinionated people ^_^

The trick is ignoring the douchebags. How do you differentiate douchebag from legitimate criticism? No idea

[virgileso]

Whenever that stuff happens with Erfworld, or any of the other webcomics that miss an update or something, I think about Unsounded. That webcomic is freakin' astounding. Ashley produces better writing & art on her own, releases half again more pages per week, runs the site on her own, & has a legitimate buffer that can be measured in months. To top it all off, she's still keeping her schedule open to do freelance work as well.

[Anteros]

Whenever that stuff happens with Erfworld, or any of the other webcomics that miss an update or something, I think about Unsounded. That webcomic is freakin' astounding. Ashley produces better writing & art on her own, releases half again more pages per week, runs the site on her own, & has a legitimate buffer that can be measured in months. To top it all off, she's still keeping her schedule open to do freelance work as well.

I'm not a big fan of Unsounded, but I definitely appreciate the art, and the amount of work that the artist puts in.

As far as Erfworld goes, I definitely prefer "we can't tell you why it's late" more than "It's all Xin's fault" like Rob used to do...so that's an improvement. I never even realize when the comic updates unless you guys tell me so I don't really care on that front.

[tomaO2]

The trick is ignoring the douchebags. How do you differentiate douchebag from legitimate criticism? No idea

Probably why he asked to be nice about giving suggestions, but, then again, if you make a valid point, it's still valid, even if you are a douche about it.

I can't help but feel he's being disingenuous when he asks for opinions on what to do better. Him doing that honestly annoys me more than the missing update. He's struck me as a guy that isn't really receptive to criticism, judging from past interactions with him. Even a simple concept like "don't make promises you can't keep". He, Thunt, and Piro, all have real problems with admitting when they just can't manage an update schedule. Also with kickstarters (why yes, I'm still bitter over "year of the dwagon"), although Thunt, to be fair, wasn't directly involved with the one that was associated with him. He also had that Tempts Fate dungeon crawl screw up though. So there is that. I dunno why anyone seriously thought Piro would manage anything worthwhile, but he ended up getting the most money of the three for his fiasco. Three years and counting for part one of his game. I really doubt there is any money left from it anymore. I wonder how long he's going to keep pretending before he does another kickstarter for the funds to finish the game, that he couldn't make, due to his unavoidable circumstances, that only needed 20k to make in the first place.

I'll be fair and say Rob's been really good now though, and I'm satisfied with how the comic is going. It's a little worrying that he's already skipping another update but, even if he skipped 1 update every month, I'd be super fine with it. I could suggest to not switch to a monthly model, because I'm convinced that doing this is at least half the reason the updating is good now, and probably a lot higher than that. I found it really disturbing that there was discussion over them going back to the monthly model after they missed an update for the first time. That really says that money is a much bigger motivator than feedback. He's probably not going to switch, but I would say, if the workers are asking for it again, don't let them do it. It's 2 pages a week, there is a big staff, you get almost 2k per update. It's a very fair trade.

But if he wants to do something to compensate for missing updates, he could have a write-up of some Erfworld trivia to post. He's supposed to spend an hour every week editing the Erf wiki page anyway. It is a reward for getting to the 1,000 mark per update that he's never done anything with, for whatever reason. Possibly because no one calls him on not delivering, due to him not being really good with criticism, even when deserved.

But hey, that's just the opinion of one douche of an Erfworld fan, pay it no mind Rob.

[-D-]

But hey, that's just the opinion of one douche of an Erfworld fan, pay it no mind Rob.

Fool! I was the douchebag all along! Me. I was the turkey! Me!

I'll be fair and say Rob's been really good now though, and I'm satisfied with how the comic is going.

To be fair, I think comic output is much more stable, now. However stability isn't same as being good. I'm often left wanting for this whole book to finish already. I mean, we knew Caesar had problems with Don. They could have had their whole quarrel finished in a couple text/comic updates. But no, we spend about a hundred pages on "Will they or won't they murder each other?". And they did, and we knew. Because, why would Fate protect Caesar, unless he was relevant to the plot?

It's a little worrying that he's already skipping another update but, even if he skipped 1 update every month, I'd be super fine with it. I could suggest to not switch to a monthly model

I am not sure what the hell is happening, I doubt that he would be able to get 16,000 bucks per month. I mean, we had monthly updates, but that was nowhere near current sum I assume, some Erfworld team people are pissed, since they are essentially getting $1900/X money this month, because someone else screwed up.

[Doran]

Whenever that stuff happens with Erfworld, or any of the other webcomics that miss an update or something, I think about Unsounded. That webcomic is freakin' astounding. Ashley produces better writing & art on her own, releases half again more pages per week, runs the site on her own, & has a legitimate buffer that can be measured in months. To top it all off, she's still keeping her schedule open to do freelance work as well.

To be fair, Ashley does take regular breaks after every chapter to build up her buffer again, although I agree having one is certainly recommended.

Also with kickstarters (why yes, I'm still bitter over "year of the dwagon"),

To be fair regarding Year of the Dwagon, the only thing that wasn't eventually fulfilled was the motion comic, and as a backer of that I got a message from Rob saying that they weren't able to produce it currently, and asked if I preferred a refund of that amount, or kept it for when it could be produced.

[-D-]

To be fair, Ashley does take regular breaks after every chapter to build up her buffer again, although I agree having one is certainly recommended.

To be fair, Ashley's updates always arrive at same time, early in the morning. Also Ashley is ready to post several pages at once, if it makes more sense.

True, multiple updates mean she skips those in future, but a small price to pay imo.

[Razade]

Is everyone having a stroke? Or has some weird virus come on my computer that forces very comment to have to, be and fair in that order.

I am not sure what the hell is happening, I doubt that he would be able to get 16,000 bucks per month. I mean, we had monthly updates, but that was nowhere near current sum I assume, some Erfworld team people are pissed, since they are essentially getting $1900/X money this month, because someone else screwed up.

Do you have any kind of evidence to that effect?

[DataNinja]

Is everyone having a stroke? Or has some weird virus come on my computer that forces very comment to have to, be and fair in that order.

I'm sorry, it might just be because it's late, but I can't quite parse what you're trying to say.

[-D-]

Or has some weird virus come on my computer that forces very comment to have to, be and fair in that order.

I'm unsure I understand? Did you mean "every comment" ?

Do you have any kind of evidence to that effect?

Other than basic economics and logic, no?

If they miss an update they don't get money. That has to impact someone. The speculation that Erfworld is going back to monthly payment, makes me think, someone is causing ruckus, and monthly payment is way to insure, they have no cause for complaint.

[Razade]

I'm unsure I understand? Did you mean "every comment"?

Yes.

Other than basic economics and logic, no?

If they miss an update they don't get money. That has to impact someone. The speculation that Erfworld is going back to monthly payment, makes me think, someone is causing ruckus, and monthly payment is way to insure, they have no cause for complaint.

You don't need to quantify it. The answer is no, you don't know if people on the Erworld team are upset over the lost revenue.

[-D-]

You don't need to quantify it. The answer is no, you don't know if people on the Erworld team are upset over the lost revenue.

It's certainly a point of stress, if they are wiling to trade money flow for a more steady income.

[Anteros]

Yes.



You don't need to quantify it. The answer is no, you don't know if people on the Erworld team are upset over the lost revenue.

That's why it's called speculation. I have a question for you Razade. Why are you always so hateful over the tiniest of disagreements?

[tomaO2]

To be fair regarding Year of the Dwagon, the only thing that wasn't eventually fulfilled was the motion comic, and as a backer of that I got a message from Rob saying that they weren't able to produce it currently, and asked if I preferred a refund of that amount, or kept it for when it could be produced.

Did he now? That's very interesting. I don't recall getting an offer like that. Then again I didn't give a whole lot either, could be just for higher end payer. At this point I don't care enough to to take the money back though. Heck, I never bothered downloading my e-book. I had some issues with doing so at first and I just never bothered. That said, I have no interest in donating again to someone that screws up like that. Kickstarters are MASSIVE crapshoots to begin with. There are so many people that fail that it just doesn't make sense, in my mind, to support someone that actually DID fail.

You have to really show me that you've changed, and Rob just hadn't been able to do that until Xin came back. I got other reasons to not donate at this point though.

I also don't count something as being done with the kickstarter money, if you then have a second kickstarter to get the money.

You don't need to quantify it. The answer is no, you don't know if people on the Erworld team are upset over the lost revenue.

This isn't speculation, Rob flat out said it in an announcement, when he was talking about a missed update, that the idea of them missing an update was so upsetting, due to the lost revenue, that actually talked about switching back to a monthly model, and Rob decided not to. This should not have been even a discussion, as far as I am concerned. Monthly model is a failed model. It concerns me that he actually takes the time to mention that he seriously thought about doing this.

This means that our streak breaks at 114 on-time strips in a row, which I think is a record we'll probably never equal. The instinct is to keep it going, but taking breaks is necessary, however much it knocks off the bottom line. (We've gotten suggestions to go to a monthly pledge system, but I believe in the built-in accountability of the Toolshed. For the first time in our history, something is working to keep us on schedule, so it's not going to change.)

Damn right. Just say no to monthly payments!

On a completely seperate note. One of the Erfworld posters want to submit Erfworld for a Hugo. Can you do that with books that don't even have paper editions? One thing about all these text updates mixed in with the comic pages, is that I really doubt that there will EVER be a physical copy of any Erf books, past the first one.

[Doran]

Did he now? That's very interesting. I don't recall getting an offer like that. Then again I didn't give a whole lot either, could be just for higher end payer. At this point I don't care enough to to take the money back though. Heck, I never bothered downloading my e-book. I had some issues with doing so at first and I just never bothered. That said, I have no interest in donating again to someone that screws up like that. You have to really show me that you've changed, and Rob just hadn't been able to do that until Xin came back. I got other reasons to not donate at this point though.

I also don't count something as being done with the kickstarter money, if you then have a second kickstarter to get the money.

Yes - see the below message sent on KS back in 2014

Spoiler

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Jan 24 2014
This message is just for those who backed Year of the Dwagon at the $50, Shiny Circle of Something level.

A donor at this level made a comment on our last backer-update to the effect that donating to the lapel pin Kickstarter would be throwing good money after bad. That made us take another look at the YotD project, and realize that although we've managed to deliver every electronic reward and ship out every physical item we promised EXCEPT the DVD/Blu-Rays (because the motion comic has not been made, and likely won't be made as we envisioned), that still has left over a hundred of you without your main reward item. You should have received the Stupid Meal pack (ebook, site badge, stickers and postcards), but you pledged at this level to get a DVD and you don't have that yet, even after two years.

So we want to give you the option to retroactively lower your pledge to the "Stupid Meal" tier. We'll send a $25 refund and take you off the list of people who will eventually be sent a DVD or Blu-Ray.

If you hang on and wait for your DVD/Blu-Ray, you will get a complete video treatment of Erfworld Book 1. Someday. It will get made, I promise. It probably won't be a full motion comic—we spent our budget for that and did not come close to being able to complete it—but it will be a full adaptation of the book. And when we have that, we will send it to you. But realistically, that item will not exist until 2015 sometime, and we know that's a long time after it was promised.

If you want to keep your pledge at this level, then you don't need to do anything at all. If you'd prefer to receive the partial refund, please respond to this with your Paypal email, and we will send it to you.

We're very sorry that our battle plan for the Year of the Dwagon project did not survive contact with the enemy. As a certain Hamster Lord once said, "We try things. Sometimes they even work." Erfworld exists for the fans and because of the fans, and your support means everything to us. I can't stand the thought of any of our supporters feeling cheated or lied to, after you've shown us such incredible generosity.

-Rob Balder

On a completely seperate note. One of the Erfworld posters want to submit Erfworld for a Hugo. Can you do that with books that don't even have paper editions? One thing about all these text updates mixed in with the comic pages, is that I really doubt that there will EVER be a physical copy of any Erf books, past the first one

There's definitely been physical copies of Book 2, including individual issues.



By the by, has anyone else been reading some of the various Erfword fanfics on the site?

"Ethereum", "The Last Turn" and "Dance Across The Hungry Jungle" are all excellent.

[tomaO2]

Yes - see the below message sent on KS back in 2014

<nods> That's a reasonable compromise. I certainly didn't pay 50 bucks, and it's good he did that.

*EDIT* oh wait, he had to do that because it's a kickstarter rule that you have to pay out all the bonus prizes. you can fail with the main project but the side stuff has to be handed out still, I think?

There's definitely been physical copies of Book 2, including individual issues.

oooh yea. I forgot about that.

Did you get it? They have everything from the website? I just look at those texts and the image and I just have trouble imagining the flow for actually reading it.

By the by, has anyone else been reading some of the various Erfword fanfics on the site?

"Ethereum", "The Last Turn" and "Dance Across The Hungry Jungle" are all excellent.

I like "the imperfect warlord". Big fan of the guy that wrote that... *cough*cough* I wrote it

[DavidSh]

On a completely seperate note. One of the Erfworld posters want to submit Erfworld for a Hugo. Can you do that with books that don't even have paper editions? One thing about all these text updates mixed in with the comic pages, is that I really doubt that there will EVER be a physical copy of any Erf books, past the first one.

Some answers to that:
1) The Hugo Awards are perfectly fine with electronic publication these days. There is currently language in the rules that explicitly permits this for the Novel, Novella, Novelette, and Short Story categories, and some years of history of acceptance in other categories.

1.5) Nomination for one of these text categories, or for Best Graphic Story, requires that the item being nominated was completed in the year in question (2016, in this case). When Book 3 is completed, one might nominate it. People have nominated "that part of endless serial X that appeared in year Y", but I think that is bad form.

2) I believe the current drive is for Xin Ye and Lauri Ahonen as a team for Best Professional Artist. Professional Artist is defined as

An illustrator whose work has appeared in a
professional publication in the field of science fiction or fantasy during the
previous calendar year.

A publication counts as professional if it provides at least a quarter of the income of any one person. I think the main issue here is treating a team as a single artist, although that has a precedent.

[Razade]

That's why it's called speculation. I have a question for you Razade. Why are you always so hateful over the tiniest of disagreements?

It wasn't phrased as speculation. As to "hateful", I think that's a tad hyperbolic don't you? Aggressive, I'll take that when it comes to certain posters. I don't have a hateful bone in my body though. I think that's you reading way more into something than is actually there.

[Welf]

New text update

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So confirmed that the GReat Minds killed Claud and Ivan. And more hints they will be the ultimate enemy after Charley with the sentence for Maggie.
The update format itself is not too thrilling. Literately a summery what happens. Tell, not show. I get that the transfusion is difficult to show, and this update wouldn't be worth the effort for designing a few pages to show that. But still feels a bit tiresome. And at the end another new plot thread/mysterious hint that probably won't be resolved for years.

[-D-]

Got to keep coffers full. I am sure Wanda will be rescued in next 200 or so strips.

[DigoDragon]

New text update

Spoiler

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So confirmed that the GReat Minds killed Claud and Ivan. And more hints they will be the ultimate enemy after Charley with the sentence for Maggie.
The update format itself is not too thrilling. Literately a summery what happens. Tell, not show. I get that the transfusion is difficult to show, and this update wouldn't be worth the effort for designing a few pages to show that. But still feels a bit tiresome. And at the end another new plot thread/mysterious hint that probably won't be resolved for years.

Spoiler: Update

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Yeah I didn't like the format either. It read more like a stat sheet than a story.

[Zalabim]

The form reminds me mostly of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abstract_(summary) from research publications.

[-D-]

The form reminds me mostly of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abstract_(summary) from research publications.

Except no quotes and cross references IMO would be banned, because it doesn't quote enough existing material.

But it has SOME information, which is less than I can say for the update preceding it.

[DigoDragon]

But it has SOME information, which is less than I can say for the update preceding it.

Such as the Great Minds thinking Charlie is gonna adhere and allow himself to be hampered by their so-called "New Bargain". I think they stopped short of asking "so besides Ivan, who else is secretly freelancing for Charlie around here?"

[-D-]

Such as the Great Minds thinking Charlie is gonna adhere and allow himself to be hampered by their so-called "New Bargain". I think they stopped short of asking "so besides Ivan, who else is secretly freelancing for Charlie around here?"

I find it interesting, they didn't know about Wanda's ability to remote decrypt everyone. I wonder would they have killed Ivan/Claude if they did?

[Killer Angel]

So, the Great Minds are willing to let Wanda die, because there's the risk that the MK could be overrun/conquered by a decrypted army... and Wanda's plan to escape death sentence is to decrypt an army in the MK.

[Leewei]

So, the Great Minds are willing to let Wanda die, because there's the risk that the MK could be overrun/conquered by a decrypted army... and Wanda's plan to escape death sentence is to decrypt an army in the MK.

And Wanda now knows she doesn't have to be personally present to do this. Any time anyone at all dies in the MK, they're hers. In fact, desperate free casters in the MK have a perverse incentive to get decrypted. They no longer have to be miserable scraping together enough rands to survive.

[DigoDragon]

I find it interesting, they didn't know about Wanda's ability to remote decrypt everyone. I wonder would they have killed Ivan/Claude if they did?

Possibly not, but I don't know what other options they have at a distance. Scramble their brains like early Jack was?

And Wanda now knows she doesn't have to be personally present to do this. Any time anyone at all dies in the MK, they're hers. In fact, desperate free casters in the MK have a perverse incentive to get decrypted. They no longer have to be miserable scraping together enough rands to survive.

There's a bit of fridge... um, not sure if brilliance or horror. Maybe a bit of both?

[-D-]

And Wanda now knows she doesn't have to be personally present to do this. Any time anyone at all dies in the MK, they're hers. In fact, desperate free casters in the MK have a perverse incentive to get decrypted. They no longer have to be miserable scraping together enough rands to survive.

Pfft. I thought about Deal to Die For around the time book two was out.

People that die in pier depop. No decryption there.

Why not offer them a Deal to serve GK as Decrypted, for the duration of the deal?Afterwards, using special Turnamancy*, you return to live out rest of your life as a Barbarian Decrypted caster?

*Actually thinkamancy.

[eschmenk]

Except no quotes and cross references IMO would be banned, because it doesn't quote enough existing material.

Einstein's paper introducing his Special Theory of Relativity had no references. He released three other very important papers, one of which introduced the E=mc^2 equation, the same year. None of those papers had references either. His later paper introducing his General Theory of Relativity had only one reference, his own paper on the Special Theory of Relativity. Einstein began with a few postulates and derived everything in the papers from them himself, so he didn't need references.