Dervish build?

[Whiplord]

So, I'm gonna be starting up a second campaign, this one a more serious RP type compared to the tongue in cheek one I'm currently in. Since I am going to have to be much more in character this time around, I wanted to be playing something fun, and with more options.

I'm basically looking for a Dervish build. I'd like it to be fairly useful in lower levels while I'm working up to Dervish, as well as have some options to it. Options are always fun. It doesn't have to be the most terribly optimized, but I want something that can do quite well in combat.

Also, I sort of feel like going with a unique race, perhaps something with LA. Or perhaps not. Suggestions welcome.

[bigbaddragon]

This should help.

A little more info on allowed books and starting level would be useful.

You may find something useful in this thread too.

[Person_Man]

Are you wedded to the Dervish PrC, or do you want an effective melee character with Dervish flavor?

The reason I ask is that the Dervish really isn't very good. Two Handed Fighting is mathematically superior to Two Weapon Fighting. The Pounce ability is pretty easy to get via a variety of methods. And the Dervish has very heavy and generally useless feat requirements.

Having said that, here's the optimization handbook on it.

[Silentmaster101]

i have the most fun going fighter and specin out in two weapon fighting and rapier feats, thus i can go weaponmaster. when the build is even moderately good at level 12 you can have 7 attacks with 12-20/x2 rapiers, and with an item of constant "critical strike" (level 1 wizard spell from spell compendium) you can have dual 10-20/x2+1d6 rapiers. you can make one hell of a good finesse fighter and mithril chain is your best friend. then add weaponmaster, on there and you can have 8-20/x3+1d6 rapiers with 9 attacks. that is a level 12/8 fighter/weaponmaster.

[Rad]

If dervish it is...
The only way to get a viable 2WF is getting some extra per-hit damage. My advice would be to go with a Scout/Ranger with the swift hunter feat (scout and ranger levels stack for skirmish and favored enemies + you can deal skirmish damage to favored enemies). Pick two favored enemies normally immune to critical hits, like elementals or undead. You have not-too-bad skills too.
I think that Ranger 2/Scout 4 meets the dervish entry requisites and you might even have a feat or two to spare.

[Whiplord]

Alright, I've come up with a few things I like, although it's not incredibly optimized, and I'm not sure how to build it.

The three classes that I really want are Dervish/Tempest/EWM

I was thinking 10 Dervish, 4 Tempest, 2 EWM. I also really want monk 2 in there for flavor (probably cobra strike for added synergy), but due the BAB loss, have no idea if that's possible. I'm also dead set on playing an Tiefling, but my DM is allowing buyoff, so I can have the full 20.

I realize that swashbuckler/fighter may be neccessary, so whatever.

Feats I need/want:
Mobility (required)
Dodge (as per the handbook, expeditious dodge would be nice)(required)
Weapon Focus (required)
Exotic Weapon Proficiency (required)
TWF/ITWF (required)(also due to houserule by my DM, ITWF and GTWF are combined)
Combat Expertise (required)

Oversized TWF (not technically required, but pretty much needed for build I want)

The rest are technically beans, but I'll take whatever:
Elusive target
Acrobatic Strike
Double Hit


That's all for that. Any help will be appreciated. Starting level 5, although I'd like a full build breakdown. Any books allowed except ToB. Forgot to say, 25 point buy.

[Quietus]

Are you wedded to the Dervish PrC, or do you want an effective melee character with Dervish flavor?

The reason I ask is that the Dervish really isn't very good. Two Handed Fighting is mathematically superior to Two Weapon Fighting. The Pounce ability is pretty easy to get via a variety of methods. And the Dervish has very heavy and generally useless feat requirements.

Having said that, here's the optimization handbook on it.

Dervish is generally seen as one of the better melee classes out there, due to their ability to move while making a full attack, in addition to their full BAB, several neat abilities, AND the bonus attack/damage their Dance gives them. Plus, they can two-hand it if they want, because they can use a Twohanded slashing weapon if they choose to.

[bigbaddragon]

I'm also dead set on playing an aasimar

I think that tiefling would serve you better due to its bonuses to int and dex which you will need both. Aasimar's +2 wis is ok but you really don't need cha bonus for your build.

I would go with Rad's proposal if I were in your place. I have similar character already built but can't remember where is it, but if I find it and if you want it I'll post it.

Also tempest isn't that good as it looks at the first glance and double hit is most useful with combat reflexes.

[Whiplord]

I think that tiefling would serve you better due to its bonuses to int and dex which you will need both. Aasimar's +2 wis is ok but you really don't need cha bonus for your build.

I would go with Rad's proposal if I were in your place. I have similar character already built but can't remember where is it, but if I find it and if you want it I'll post it.

Also tempest isn't that good as it looks at the first glance and double hit is most useful with combat reflexes.

That's actually what I meant to say. I'll go back and edit that. Silly me.

What would you recommend instead of Tempest?

EDIT: Alright, hopefully this'll be seen, as I don't think I'm allowed to double post. I decided to drop Tempest, as on look it over closer, I can see it's not the hugest deal, and anyways, the build was getting really complex.

My one remaining problem is whether to go Scout or Swashbuckler as my entry. Scout would give me 2d6 skirmish, which would be very handy as a Dervish. Swashbuckler gives me weapon finesse (and int to dmg, but that's less important to me), and I keep hearing that the best way to build a dervish that's not going to be power attacking is using dex/weapon finesse.

Now, at first glance, to a fairly inexperienced player like myself, it seems that the 2d6 +3 STR added damage would be very beneficial to me, especially due to the whole TWF thing.

But on the other hand, due to racial adjustments, I can get my Dex to 18 as opposed to 16 STR. Would the extra +1 to hit be all that beneficial? Or am I missing something else?

Once I get this answered all I will need to do is rework the favor that has been raped by all this reworking. Hopefully someone can get me an answer, as I've beeen stressing needlessly over this all day.

Thanks!

[Talya]

There's an iron heart stance that gives you +5' reach with any weapon you use, which is great for a scimitar-weilding twf dervish. People say that TOB doesn't work well with dervish because most strikes are standard actions, but the best things TOB classes get are boosts, stances, and counters, not strikes.

[Whiplord]

Sounds interesting, except that my DM has strictly outlawed ToB. He seems to think it's broken, and I really don't want to put myself through the grief of arguing otherwise.

And now my real problem is in my edit above.

[Talya]

See, the problem with strength and TWF is that it only gives 1/2 it's bonus (rounded down) on your off hand. Your much better finding another source of bonus damage that applies equally in each hand. Some of the disadvantages of those other sources, however, is that they are often precision damage that does not apply to many creature types (undead, constructs, elementals.) The Ranger/Scout combination is nice as you can get them to stack for skirmish and favored enemies, and also get skirmish to apply to favored enemies even if they are normally immune to skirmish.

I prefer the swashbuckler 3/fighter 2 route to dervish, then mix in other stuff along the way, but it lacks a huge source of bonus damage. It's decent and viable all the way up, but never a "Oh my god, WOW!" type of build.

Here's one build I absolutely love. If your DM lets you take flaws for additional feats, this becomes even easier.

Race: Gray Elf. (This is essential...you must be an elf, and dex and int are your main stats anyway.)
1: Swashbuckler 1(Finesse, Weapon Focus: Longsword. It's a requirement, despite that you'll never use it. Don't worry about it.)
2: Swashbuckler 2
3: Fighter 1 (Expertise, Expeditious Dodge)
4: Fighter 2 (Mobility)
5: Swashbuckler 3
6: Dervish 1 (TWF. Use scimitars)
7: Fighter 3
8: Fighter 4 (Mounted Combat. Another silly requirement)
9: Champion of Corellon Larethian 1 (Improved TWF)
10: Champion of Corellon Larethian 2
11: Dervish 2
12: Dervish 3 (Greater TWF)
13: Dervish 4
14: Dervish 5
15: Dervish 6 (Weapon Focus: Scimitar)
16: Dervish 7
17: Dervish 8
18: Dervish 9 (Weapon Specialization: Scimitar)
19: Dervish 10
20: Scout 1

With this build, you're getting + dex to damage, +int to damage, and +2 from weapon specialization, in full, on each hand. If you happen to manage 14 strength to go with it, you'll get strength too, but it's not important. The little dip into scout at 20 gives you an extra +1d6 damage per hit, too, but how many games reach 20?

As I said, if you can take flaws, you can get a lot of those feats earlier, and possibly skip those extra two levels of fighter for something more useful.

Tiefling would work for the above build if you can convince your DM that the concept behind the Champion of Corellon Larethian class should not apply only to elves, rename the class and open it to other races. Otherwise, you're stuck...it's the only way I know of of allowing you to apply dex to damage (short of some specific TOB situational stuff.) As a tiefling or gray elf, it's a shame to waste the +2 dex/+2 int they both get (being able to apply them both to damage is sweet.)

[purple gelatinous cube o' Doom]

Now, due to the LA for this, it can take some time, but once it's done, the build is ridiculous. Anywho, a thri-kreen (non-psionic to cut down LA) straight fighter or fighter/thief-acrobat, or fighter/swashbucklers make good dervish builds. Being able to wield 4 scimitars in a whirling mass of blades is great fun.

[Whiplord]

Directed to Talya:

I kind of like the idea of that, but due to RP reasons (which really, is the entire point of this campaign), I really want to stay Tiefling. So, I'll try to convince my DM to reflavor the class.

The other annoying thing is that I found an exotic weapon that I had absolutely set my heart on (Double Chained Axe from Bastion Press Arms and Armor). So I would have to try and convince him to change the longsword prereq to something of that sort as well.

But thansk for the suggestion. Failing my DM agreeing to reflavor, me me switching to elf, or give up the axe, which route would you recomend then?

I realize it may not be the best character, but I have this idea in my head all the same.

[Talya]

The longsword focus prerequisite is part of the champion of corellon class. Note the above build doesn't use that proficiency, any more than it uses mounted combat, it just took them to qualify for the PrC. If you can get him to rebuild that class, or find some other way to give you dex to damage (there are other examples you can point out: a feat in TOB that lets some players add dex to damage with certain weapons, and the Ataru lightsaber technique talent in Star Wars Saga Edition. If you don't have to take the champion class all the better, all you really want is the ability to add dex to damage.)

[multiclassfool]

I've rolled up a fun dervish that I'd like to see in action:
(houserule disclaimer: we play with Flaws, and all races have the human-style preferred-class)

I'm envisioning an elf, but haven't decided. Dex is primary stat.

1 Scout C.Expertise, Dodge, Mobility (1d6)
2 Swashbuckler (Finesse)
3 Scout Weapon Focus Scimitar
4 Scout (1d6/1AC)
5 Ranger (maybe Urban Ranger variant for RP purposes)
6 Ranger Swift Hunter (2 WpnFightng) (2d6/1AC,Favs:undead & constructs)
7 Dervish (DD1/day) {let the good times roll}
8 Scout Improved Skirmish (4d6/3AC)
9 Dervish Improved Critical (15-20/x2 ftw)
10 Dervish (DD2/day)
11 Fighter Improved 2Wpn
12 Dervish Acrobatic Strike
13 Dervish (DD3/day)
14 Dervish
15 Dervish (DD4/day) Deadly Defense (Elaborate Parry)
16 Fighter Greater 2Wpn
17 Dervish
18 Dervish (DD5/day) Telling Blow OR Power Critical
19 Dervish
20 ?

This build intrigues me. Almost full BAB progression (BAB 18 @ Lvl 19), possible 4d6 skirmish early on. Nice Reflex and Fort saves. (Most of my Dex warriors end up all Reflex.) I snuck in Scout 4 and Fighter 1&2 to pick up important feats, but those could be skipped if one prefers faster Dervish advancement.
-edit(added): I've played a scout before(scout, halfling paragon,master thrower,ExWpnMstr (skiprocks),ThiefAcrobat), and let me tell you that it's greatest weakness is the precision limitations, being near-useless vs undead and constructs (DR, grrrr). Swift Hunter is a dream come true!

[Whiplord]

Woah, wasn't expecting this to be bumped. That build looks decent, but as was recomended to me, I would try and get at least Swash 3 in there for the Int to damage. But it's your choice, and that build looks like it would function.
Since this got bumped, I may as well post my build that I decided on. My DM agreed to homebrew me a PrC that gave Dex to damage, so I worked that in. I'll just post small bits here, and post the whole thing only if I get interest.

Race is Tiefling with buyoff rules in place, and I got a free exotic wpn prof.

Swashbuckler 1 - Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Combat Expertise
Swashbuckler 2
Fighter 1 - Weapon Focus, Expeditious Dodge
Swashbuckler 3
Fighter 2 - Mobility
Dervish 1 - TWF
Wanderer of the Southern Winds (WotSW) 1 - Improved TWF
WotSW 2
Dervish 2 - Greater TWF
Dervish 3
Dervish 4
Dervish 5 - Weapon Specialization
WotSW 3
Dervish 6
Dervish 7 - Elusive target
Dervish 8
Dervish 9
Dervish 10 - Acrobatic strike
Exotic Weapon master 1

seems like it should work for my purposes. Has full BAB, Int and Dex to damage, a few nice perks from WotSW, and solid all around saves.