Unchained Rogue Optimization

[Rumo]

Hello,

our level 7 group will be joined by a player who has never played Pathfinder before. She opted to go for a Halfling Unchained Rogue, and now it's my job to present her the best possible build. Which is not particularly easy for me, as I have never played Rogue before.

So here it is:

Point buy 25
STR 8
DEX 20 (raised at level 4)
CON 16
INT 12
WIS 10
CHA 12

1 Urban Barbarian - Two-Weapon Fighting
2 Unchained Rogue
3 Unchained Rogue - Toughness; Minor Magic (But which spell? No need for Detect Magic, Light could be useful when she's on her own, or maybe Message?)
4 Unchained Rogue
5 Unchained Rogue - Improved Low Blow; Major Magic (Vanish)
6 Unchained Rogue
7 Unchained Rogue - Two-Weapon Defense; Weapon Training: Weapon Focus Kukri

Next will be Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, and on Level 11 she can be looking forward to Improved Critical -> threat range 15-20 with +1ß% on confirmation + reroll.

Traits: Reactionary, Fate's Favored

Regarding Equipment, she has 16000 gold at her disposal. So far I have come up with the following idea, but I'm sure there are many good items that I simply don't know:

Kukri +1: 2308gp
Kukri +1: 2308gp
Daredevil Boots: 1400gp
Cloak of Resistance +1: 1000gp
Belt of Incredible Dexterity: 4000
Mithral Shirt: 1100
... adding up to 12116 gold.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

[Kniggits]

Is she dead set on Unchained Rogue, or just Rogue in general? If you're set on giving her vanish then try and get her to play a Ninja, it's just a rogue by a different name and it gets some pretty awesome tricks as well. Also, the magic talents aren't worth near as much as a number of other talents.

Talents that I usually use:

Bleeding Attack - Opponent takes bleed damage unless they use an action to heal it (buys you or someone else a turn). Doesn't stack on multiple hits though

Combat Trick - Combat Feat you qualify for

Fast Stealth - Move at full speed while using stealth without penalty

Ninja Trick - Gain one of the ninja tricks (Most aren't worth it without a Ki pool, but have a look at them)

Shadow Duplicate - Immediate action for Mirror Image when you're hit

Slow Reactions - Opponents hit by your sneak attack can't make Attacks of Opportunity

Trap Spotter - Get an Perception check when within 10 ft of a trap

Weapon Training - Weapon Focus for a talent instead of using your feats

Obscuring Blow - Instead of doing the extra damage from Sneak attack, you can cloud the opponents vision to give them a 20% miss chance on there attacks


Note: Any Talents that modify the sneak attack can only apply 1 at a time. That means no Obscuring Blow + Bleeding Attack on the same round.


If you convince her to go Ninja, Vanishing Trick is one of the best tricks to get. Shadow Clones is nice since it's Mirror image with multiple clones unlike Shadow Duplicate, though it takes a standard action instead of an immediate one. Hidden Weapons is nice if you want to look friendly while staying deadly. Pressure Points is a sneak attack modifier that damages Strength or Dexterity.

As for equipment, I think you've done well so far. If she goes ninja then you can switch the Kukris to Wakisashis

[exelsisxax]

Why do you think barbarian is a good dip? 10' speed and a rage that doesn't synergize is really not doing much. You could just take the halfling trait that improves speed to 30. A single level of UC monk gets you stunning fist, improved unarmed strike, another bonus feat, an extra attack every full attack(now stacks with TWF!), and an AC bonus if armor is foregone and some points moved to WIS. Or just stay rogue, because it isn't a bad class anymore.

Do you have a competent spellcaster? Then minor magic is probably worthless. Any spontaneous spellcaster has all the non-crap cantrips already, major magic doesn't get you anything your wizard couldn't give you 4 levels ago. Use those 2 rogue talents instead to get a ki pool and Vanishing trick(edit: ninja'd), basically vanish but swift action, lasts longer, and ends up with more uses per day, while having no INT requirements. Or, your spellcaster could just cast actual invisibility on this rogue, if possible.

Is the campaign particularly lethal? Resiliency is awful unless you think that this character is going to get KO'd on a daily basis. Use the talent to get dodge instead. It's consistently useful.

So with that out of the way, why are you making the character? If she has no experience with similar RPG systems so she asked for this assistance, she still needs to supply a clear idea of what she wants her character to be like. "best build" doesn't matter much when she's basically playing someone else's NPC.

[Serafina]

Why is she particularly set on "Rogue"? It might be worth pointing out that a lot of other classes can do the same things the Rogue can:
- the Vivisectionist Alchemist gets just as much sneak attack, can be basically as stealthy, but also gets spells (well, extracts
- the Investigator is basically a Rogue, but better. Studied Combat provides almost as much damage as sneak attack while also providing accuracy, you have more skills and are better at them, and you have extracts (or either psychic or arcane casting from the psychic or bard list, if you so choose).
- the Stalker Vigilante basically has sneak attack - it's weaker in prolonged combat unless you use some tricks, but actually better if you do a first-strike.

But alright, if she's set on Unchained Rogue for some reason, here's my way to optimize those:
Step 1: Take the Eldritch Scoundrel Archetype
Step 2: Take Forgotten Trick and Vanishing Trick. Get this early via either favored class bonus (not available to Halflings) or the Extra Rogue Talent feat.
Step 3: Be at least 7th level, take Magus Variant Multiclass. Take Ki Arcana.
Step 4: Take a Ring of Ki Mastery, and a good amount of Pearls of Power I.
Result: You can use all the ninja-tricks very often, as well as becoming invisible nearly at-will. You do less but more reliable damage, and have acquired spellcasting and a very large ki/arcana pool which you can use for any ninja-trick you want.

Level 7 is actually the exact right moment where that build comes online.
All you really need for this build is what I've described above. Your feats will be Extra Rogue Talent and probably Two-Weapon Fighting. Alternatively to Two-Weapon Fighting, you can grab "Forge Ring" to make sure you can afford and have that ring. Get good Dexterity and Intelligence, without neglecting Constitution. Strength and Charisma can be dumped, if you're okay with that.
The build would be much better as a Human due to favored class bonus and extra feats, but oh well.
Later, you can re-train extra rogue talent (at level 8 actually). For all the tricks you can pull off, and how your build will progress, see here.

[Long_shanks]

Step 3: Be at least 7th level, take Magus Variant Multiclass. Take Ki Arcana

Unfortunately, this doesn't work.

From the SRD:

Ki Arcana (Ex)

Prerequisite: Magus 6, must also have levels in a class that grants a ki pool

I've looked at a similar build but that was the last hurdle I couldn't jump over elegantly.

Edit: I misremembered the Eldritch Scoundrel ability to burn spells for ki. However, you still don't have an official ki pool (that was my prospective DM interpretation), so I scrapped the project.

[Serafina]

Right, I forgot that you also have to take the Ki Pool Talent, which sadly means this build will only be really good at level 8 where you can then take Vanishing Trick.
It's really much better if your racial FCB can give you extra Tricks, which sadly isn't an option for the Halfling.

[Rumo]

I'm sorry, I found some mistakes in the build that I posted, and I had already started editing before I saw that answers had come in by now. (Thank you for that!) I agree about Resiliency, and I had already thrown that out and thought about squeezing in Bleeding Attack. Minor Magic is useless, yes, but Vanish several times per day seems pretty strong to me. Still I agree that two Rogue Talents are a big investment for this, perhaps too big.

I am merely creating this build to have something to work with tomorrow. She will probably want a change or two about it, regarding the feats and talents, but it seems to be a good idea to not start from scratch at the moment when the character is put on paper. Your other suggestions may be good, but she is pretty much set on Unchained Rogue. The Urban Barbarian Dip does not give her a movement bonus. However, it allows her to rage with +4 DEX, with is pretty good for a character that uses DEX for attack, damage, AC and reflex save.

I was not aware about the 30 feet trait, need to look that one up, thanks for the tip!

[Rumo]

@ Serafina:

Interesting build, but the problem is: For a player who is new to pathfinder, starting that character at level 7 would be pretty complex and hard to handle. And the group already has a Wizard/Harrower, an Oracle and an Inquisitor, so it's not really lacking on the spellcasting front.

[Rumo]

Update:

Point buy 25
STR 8
DEX 20 (raised at level 4)
CON 16
INT 12
WIS 10
CHA 12

1 Urban Barbarian - Two-Weapon Fighting
2 Unchained Rogue
3 Unchained Rogue - Toughness; Weapon Training -> Weapon Focus Kukri
4 Unchained Rogue
5 Unchained Rogue - Dodge; Bleeding Attack
6 Unchained Rogue
7 Unchained Rogue - Two-Weapon Defense; Trap Spotter

Next will be Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, and on Level 11 she can be looking forward to Improved Critical

Traits: Reactionary, Fate's Favored
Racial Trait: Fleet of Foot

Regarding Equipment, she has 16000 gold at her disposal. So far I have come up with the following idea, but I'm sure there are many good items that I simply don't know:

Kukri +1: 2308gp
Kukri +1: 2308gp
Daredevil Boots: 1400gp
Cloak of Resistance +1: 1000gp
Belt of Incredible Dexterity: 4000
Mithral Shirt: 1100
... adding up to 12116 gold.

[exelsisxax]

I'm sorry, I found some mistakes in the build that I posted, and I had already started editing before I saw that answers had come in by now. (Thank you for that!) I agree about Resiliency, and I had already thrown that out and thought about squeezing in Bleeding Attack. Minor Magic is useless, yes, but Vanish several times per day seems pretty strong to me. Still I agree that two Rogue Talents are a big investment for this, perhaps too big.

I am merely creating this build to have something to work with tomorrow. She will probably want a change or two about it, regarding the feats and talents, but it seems to be a good idea to not start from scratch at the moment when the character is put on paper. Your other suggestions may be good, but she is pretty much set on Unchained Rogue. The Urban Barbarian Dip does not give her a movement bonus. However, it allows her to rage with +4 DEX, with is pretty good for a character that uses DEX for attack, damage, AC and reflex save.

I was not aware about the 30 feet trait, need to look that one up, thanks for the tip!

If your DM will allow that archetype, there's plenty of better rogue archetypes out there. For an experienced player that can use DSP material, I'd be screaming "hidden blade!" but that's relatively complex.

For a small-sized rogue, vexing dodger is actually hilariously powerful. You give up little for immense CMB bonuses against larger creatures, free dirty trick enhancements, and can nauseate creatures with swift actions while having +6 dodge bonuses.
Knife master will buff sneak attack to d8s while using those kukri.
Dark lurker basically ends up ignoring concealment and miss changes, so a globe of darkness(or a smokestick!) may as well be invisibility for the rogue only.

[Rumo]

Ah, Knife Master is a good idea. Initially it was the first thing I looked at, but then lost interest when I saw that it gave up "the trap stuff". On second sight, Trap Sense is just more reflex for a character that is expected to never fail a reflex save anyway. So what do I prefer, + 1/2 level bonus when dealing with traps or + 1/2 level damage bonus when sneak attacking? I think the latter occurs somewhat more often...

[Firest Kathon]

Minor Magic (But which spell? No need for Detect Magic, Light could be useful when she's on her own, or maybe Message?)

You can use it for a ranged touch attack spell (e.g. Acid Splash, Ray of Frost), as you can sneak attack with it (e.g. from hiding).

[Psyren]

Ah, Knife Master is a good idea. Initially it was the first thing I looked at, but then lost interest when I saw that it gave up "the trap stuff". On second sight, Trap Sense is just more reflex for a character that is expected to never fail a reflex save anyway. So what do I prefer, + 1/2 level bonus when dealing with traps or + 1/2 level damage bonus when sneak attacking? I think the latter occurs somewhat more often...

Note that you can get the "trap stuff" back with a trait or with a dip.

You can use it for a ranged touch attack spell (e.g. Acid Splash, Ray of Frost), as you can sneak attack with it (e.g. from hiding).

Another good option is minor wish, with creativity you can get the GM to sign off on all kinds of things. Message or Mage Hand are also good if you find yourself doing a lot of scouting.

[Rumo]

We created the character today, and she decided to go for the spell-like abilities. Which doesn't look like a bad chocie to me... I still do find Vanish incredibly useful for its versatility: Prepare Sneak Attacks, get out of trouble when low on hit points, Infiltration...
On the other hand, my suggestion of Dodge was rather bad, as the Knife Master already gainst Dodge Bonuses against light blades.

Regarding the trait, I don't quite understand why this is needed. As far as I understand, she still has Disable Device as a class skill, only doesn't get the bonus on trap- related perception checks anymore, and loses Danger Sense.

[exelsisxax]

We created the character today, and she decided to go for the spell-like abilities. Which doesn't look like a bad chocie to me... I still do find Vanish incredibly useful for its versatility: Prepare Sneak Attacks, get out of trouble when low on hit points, Infiltration...
On the other hand, my suggestion of Dodge was rather bad, as the Knife Master already gainst Dodge Bonuses against light blades.

Regarding the trait, I don't quite understand why this is needed. As far as I understand, she still has Disable Device as a class skill, only doesn't get the bonus on trap- related perception checks anymore, and loses Danger Sense.

a. Dodge bonuses stack
b. you can't disable a device that already blew your face off

[Psyren]

Regarding the trait, I don't quite understand why this is needed. As far as I understand, she still has Disable Device as a class skill, only doesn't get the bonus on trap- related perception checks anymore, and loses Danger Sense.

Trapfinding is a bit misnamed; I mean, sure, it does help you find traps in Pathfinder (via a scaling bonus to your Perception check) but in 3.5 its name was a bit more literal. Without it, traps with too high a DC would simply be undetectable to you - leaving you, well, unable to find them.

The term "trapfinding" does not do a good job of capturing its second use however, which is more important in PF in particular; namely, it gives you a secondary means of disabling traps, specifically magic traps. Normally, the Disable Device skill only works on, well, devices - i.e. purely mechanical things like tripwires, trap doors, spike pits, crushing walls, that sort of thing. Anyone can at least attempt to try and defeat those without trapfinding. But traps that either use magic (e.g. a turret recessed in the wall that shoots lightning) or consist entirely of magic (Explosive Runes etched on a doorframe) cannot be disabled this way; even if you knew they were there, you would need another way of dealing with the magic itself, like access to Dispels or Antimagic. A character with Trapfinding meanwhile knows how to use their mundane skills (i.e. the Disable Device skill) to interfere with the magic that these traps rely on.

In short - without Trapfinding, even if you can see the magic trap or know it is there, then unless you can dispel or suppress it, your only hope is to avoid it or try to trigger it safely. And since magic traps can include a very large variety of nasty effects (most notably alarms) that can make both of those options impractical, then having someone who can deal with them is important, especially if it can be done quietly.

[Rumo]

Oh, I see. Thanks for the explanation, I missed the magic trap part. Will pass that information on, maybe she wants to swap it for Reactionary.

[DracoknightZero]

Well could consider the Unchained Ninja even though its a 3rd party variant
Also when it comes to archtypes for unchained rogue "Danger sense" is technically trapsense for that purpose, even paizo said so somewhere.

[Rumo]

Yes, Danger Sense has also been kicked out. Well, there must be some compensation for getting +1 per die Rogue Level Sneak Attack damage I suppose. Regarding that Ninja thing, third party content is not allowed.

Trap Finder is a good idea, problem is that it's a campaign trait, which makes it illegal outside of the respective campaign. (At least that's how we play it.)

[Psyren]

Trap Finder is a good idea, problem is that it's a campaign trait, which makes it illegal outside of the respective campaign. (At least that's how we play it.)

Then your only recourse is a dip of some kind, or houseruling. Or you can use dispels or remote activation to handle magic traps, though these methods have drawbacks of their own.

[gr8artist]

Might be too late, but I'll second the Vivisectionist Alchemist as a better dip than Urban Barbarian.

Spoiler: Urban Barbarian Benefits

Show

+4 HP, +1 BAB (if you're using partial BAB & Saves rules, it's only +0.25 BAB)
Proficiency with all martial weapons and shields
Knowledge (Nobility) and Ride as class skills
"Crowd Control" that grants +1 attack & AC when poorly positioned, as well as an ability to move through crowds
+4 Dex for 7 rounds per day

Spoiler: Vivisectionist Alchemist Benefits

Show

+2 Ref (if you're using partial BAB & Saves rules, it's only +0.5 Ref)
Fly, Heal, Knowledge (Arcana, Nature), Spellcraft, and Survival as class skills
+1 level to Sneak Attack progression
2 extracts per day (self-target 1st level spells, basically)
Brew Potion and Throw Anything as bonus feats
A bonus to making mundane alchemical items (smokesticks, etc)
+4 Dex, -2 Wis, and +2 AC for 10 minutes per day

Furthermore, dipping a second level into Alchemist will net you more bonuses and 10 more minutes of mutagen goodness, as well as the option to take certain (really good) Rogue talents instead of the Alchemist's 2nd level "discovery."

[Rumo]

@Psyren: We decided to opt for "get blown up once in a while." ;)

@gr8artist: The Vivisectionist really does look like a good alternative. But I'm not sure it is better: Unlike drinking the Mutagen, Rage is a free action. Anyway, the character is finished now, and major changes are not going to happen. Swapping a feat or trait is possible, but adding a whole new class would go too far.