So, Total War: Warhammer

[Pilum]

There are lord and hero skills that can boost your ammo reserves army-wide if you really want to make sure you shoot as many of the cowards down as possible.

Great advice, LCP, just one quibble; what is this "if" you speak of? :D

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I would say that in campaign, Dwarf army comp is very simple - against the AI it's just a matter of bringing a sufficiently wide and tanky front line for your missile troops to wreck everything from a position of safety. You can make a stack that's just 100% dwarf warriors/quarrelers (at maybe a 60/40 mix) and with tech tree bonuses it'll scale very well right up until the mid-late game (whenever you start having to deal with Chaos really).

Designing a stack at a similar level to the GS one, and assuming you don't want to do a boring spam build... I would suggest something like this:


MAIN BATTLE LINE:
4 Dwarf Warriors
3 Ironbreakers.

You'll want to mix up how many of the warriors have great weapons depending on what kind of enemy you're facing. Most of the time I would go with majority shields - your infantry line's job is to hold, not blend, and the AI likes recruiting archers - but when Chaos arrives you will need the armour piercing damage of great weapons. If you want to go more elite you can replace the warriors with longbeards, but with tech + lord skills warriors remain effective well into the late game, and dwarf stacks are expensive.

Ironbreakers aren't like Black Orcs; they're maybe the tankiest unit in the game, but they dish very little damage in combat. Their main damage-dealing potential comes from their blasting charges - make sure you get those volleys in as the lines close. In sieges blasting charges are amazing - due to their AOE effect battlements give very little cover against them, so you can absolutely shred defenders on walls with your charges before you begin a ladder assault. Blasting charges also toss enemy units around so are great for disrupting a charge.

If you have access to regiments of renown, Norgrimling's Ironbreakers are worth their cost - extremely durable even by Ironbreaker standards.

MISSILE LINE:

4 Quarrelers or Rangers
2 Thunderers or Rangers with Great Weapons

The crossbow troops provide your real damage-dealing power to clear out cheap enemy infantry and focus down lightly-armoured monsters. The gunners/throwing axes provide armour piercing damage to deal with enemy lords, cavalry and armoured monsters like the Arachnarok. If you're facing a lord on a flying monster, the Thunderers are best, as they have a longer range and their bullets travel faster (so are harder to dodge). If you're facing a target that will oblige you by sitting still at short range then the throwing axes are probably a better choice.

Rangers all have Stalk, so can operate with a little less protection than the other missile troops if you're clever about tricking the AI. The downside though is that they have much less armour, so don't trade as well with big blobs of enemy archers (which Quarrelers will wreck with minimal losses).

The ideal dwarf strategy is to find a slope where this group can fire down over the heads of your infantry line into the melee. The crossbows have the arc to do that anyway but the thunderers are very easily obstructed. Unless you're in a very lopsided fight (i.e. outnumbered enough to run out of ammo before the enemy breaks) this is probably the group that will break the back of the enemy army.

ARTILLERY:

2 cannons or 2 grudge throwers

In the early game, grudge throwers will clear greenskin infantry hordes very nicely, and soften up the enemy morale in big blob fights. Cannons are of more use in the late game when you're fighting more monsters and heavy cavalry, although they can do a decent job against dense infantry formations too. They're invaluable to have against Chaos when Archaon arrives - they'll wreck Chaos Knights and chariots, and when they hit a Giant they tend to knock it down even when they don't kill it, significantly delaying its arrival at your lines. Mount Gunbad has a special building that lets you recruit cannons with hella veterancy - get this as soon as you can, as high-veterancy cannons get extremely accurate. Cannons can also do good counter-battery service against the Empire as they have higher base accuracy than shoddy umgi knockoffs. (Can you tell I like cannons?)

A regiment of renown worth mentioning here is the Gob Lobber. It's hilarious and also super-effective. It can pull counter-battery duty to equal or greater effect than a cannon, as even if it doesn't score the same quantity of direct hits, its morale debuff quickly routs artillery crews. In MP my 2 artillery pieces are always 1 cannon + the Gob Lobber.

If it's the late game and you want to have fun, you can experiment with Flame Cannons - they're very pricey and short ranged, but can be devastating against the AI, doing extreme damage to even very elite infantry like Chosen. Organ guns I would say are sadly not worth taking in most circumstances, and bolt throwers are budget cannons - there for you if you need cannons but don't yet have the buildings/cash.

REARGUARD:

2 Slayers
2 Longbeards with Great Weapons

These are to keep cavalry and other fast units off your missile line. Slayers are the fastest ground units in the dwarf roster, with a powerful charge and a big anti-large bonus, so use them as roving interceptors to catch cavalry and monsters and stay on their back when things get messy. The Longbeards meanwhile have a nice dense formation and charge defence against large, meaning they can position themselves as a wall to block off cavalry charges. As long as they're braced when the charge hits they'll shrug off a lot of the damage. Their encouragement aura helps keep the missile units around once things get messy and the armour piercing damage from the great weapons helps them chop through heavy cavalry.

In your favourite stack I would make sure to get the Grumbling Guard as one of the longbeards - as well as an encouragement aura they also replenish the fatigue of nearby units, which is immensely powerful in the kind of drawn-out battles of attrition dwarfs favour.

If the enemy stack doesn't have enough fast troops to encircle you, then you can just merge this group into the front line.

That's 19 units, so add a lord to taste (if you're picking a LL, Grombrindal is a melee beast, while Thorgrim provides powerful buffs to your infantry; if it's a generic lord, the Runelord has amazing utility and is much more survivable than typical wizard lords). Runesmiths are brill but will be limited by hero caps on the campaign map - if you can bring one then I'd absolutely drop a dwarf warrior unit to slot him in. Be aware that your leaders are slow, so easy targets for beefy enemy lords - Grimgor in particular will demolish any dwarf lord that isn't Grombrindal. A hit squad of Thanes or a bodyguard unit of Hammerers can help turn the tables in that situation - but generally your best answer to enemy lords is your Thunderers.

Gyros require some quite high-tier buildings to unlock, but are worth including once you start fighting Chaos, particularly the Brimstone Gun variant - I would think of them as a replacement for either Quarrelers or artillery. Their bombs are extremely effective when dropped over an engaged infantry line, and their guns can do a lot of damage to cavalry and monsters. Most of all they are maybe the best way to deal with Hellcannons, which Archaon's buddies will bring a lot of, and which will absolutely destroy a dwarf army if left to their own devices. The cheaper steam gun variant is highly effective in MP at cleaning up lightly-armoured infantry (e.g. Greenskins), but in campaign I find that generally by the time you unlock them you will already have the Greenskins on the run.

The gyrobomber I wouldn't rate, but the RoR version is perhaps an exception to the rule.

EDIT: A few more words about cavalry: dwarfs in campaign just have to live with the fact that they can't run fleeing armies down. Rather than one decisive battle you have to fight two or three as you chase down and mop up the survivors on the campaign map (although the later ones should be easily autoresolved). Slayers can chase down most infantry, but are difficult to recruit and not a unit you want to have lots of (and frequently don't survive the battle with high numbers); Gyros are fast enough to chase anything, but are even more difficult to recruit and only have 3 models per unit so are very ineffective at actually killing routing enemies.

Generally the best thing to chase routing enemies with is crossbow bolts and artillery fire. There are lord and hero skills that can boost your ammo reserves army-wide if you really want to make sure you shoot as many of the cowards down as possible.

This is equally insightful! Thanks again, LCP.

If I wanted to use Hammerers, could I swap the Dwarf Warriors with Great Weapons (assuming the army's built to deal with heavily armored foes like you suggested above, and not for more archery foes requiring shields to protect them) out for Hammerers, assuming cost isn't an issue?

[LCP]

Yes, Hammerers are a straight (and very powerful) upgrade over dwarf warriors with great weapons. The only thing to be aware of is that while the difference between the two units offensively is huge (over double the melee attack and almost double the weapon strength), the difference defensively is small (the exact same melee defense and only a ~10% bump in armour). So they tend to be a bit of a glass cannon, at least in as much as any dwarf unit can be. For that reason combined with their high upkeep I'm not the hugest fan of taking too many Hammerers in campaign. Longbeards are a good halfway house, particularly with their abilities that the other two units don't have (encouragement aura + charge defence against large).

A really elite infantry line might look something like

HM LB IB IB IB LB HM

(HM = Hammerers, LB = Longbeards with great weapons, IB = Ironbreakers)

If you use your missile troops to keep the hammerers from being pressured too much, you can chew up the flanks of the enemy line and get a Cannae-esque encirclement going on. My primary use for hammerers though would just be a single unit guarding your lord.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I see! Thanks again!

I'm not annoying you, am I?

[LCP]

Nah I like talking about the game . It's my favourite game for a long time.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Thanks. So what's a good 20-corpse setup for the Vampire Counts, specifically Mannfred since I know Vlad's ability to vanguard deploy EVERYTHING eliminates the majority of the Vampire Counts' issues like lacking archers and artillery of any kind?

[LCP]

I would say a good core for a VC army is something along the lines of

THE BLOB

5 Zombies
5 Grave Guard (with great Weapons vs. Dwarfs or Chaos, with shields vs. everyone else)
4 Crypt Horrors
Corpse Cart w./ Unholy Lodestone OR Mortis Engine

General idea here being to deploy in 3 lines:

-------zombies------

----grave guard----

--------horrors------

with the support wagon nestled somewhere safe among the horrors. The zombies block the enemy charge and help tire out their forces; the grave guard provide a durable backbone for your blob, and the horrors give you a solid whack of armour-piercing damage, while also debuffing the enemy with poison. Having them charge through your infantry is good as the zombies and grave guard will swamp anti-large units like spearmen and stop them from effectively focusing down the horrors.

The deep formation helps keep the maximum number of units in range of the healing from the buff wagon, and allows you to get the most bang for your buck out of the overcast AoE version of Invocation of Nehek. If the enemy encircles you, it's no big deal - if your wagon is a Mortis Engine that's even a good thing as it means its aura will be stripping HP from a lot of units at once. The main thing is just to stick together, heal up and grind the enemy down.

Usual RoR comment here: the Sternsmen are a fantastic regiment of renown, and you should absolutely swap out one of your Grave Guard for them if you can.

THE BLITZ

2 Blood Knights
2 Varghulfs

Blood Knights are maybe the best unit in the game when it comes to cavalry-on-cavalry duels, so are perfect for keeping enemy cavalry off your flanks - which is good, because you don't have much in the way of effective anti-large infantry. They'll also eat monsters alive. They take a T5 building to recruit, but once you get them you'll never go back. Until then you can make do with Black Knights (preferably the lance variant) or Vargheists (probably my pick). If you're fighting armies that have a lot of light cav that your knights can't catch, you can snip some zombies out of the blob and use those slots for Dire Wolves or Fell Bats - pin them down with wolves or bats and hold them until the knights can arrive. These units are also very useful for running down fleeing enemies and going after enemy missile troops (particularly against the Empire).

Varghulfs meanwhile make an excellent hit squad. They're very fast, so can keep up with your cavalry. And they've got very high mass, which combines with their high speed to let them pull through enemy lines to get to important targets. Playing against dwarfs in MP I frequently charge Varghulfs straight through their shieldwall to get at the missile troops in the rear. They also have strong regeneration which is a boon in campaign, as you can womble around after you've won the battle letting their health recharge for free. Their biggest weakness is their leadership, so keep Mannfred close by if you can and pull them out if things start looking hairy - you can always just hide them somewhere, let them recover their nerves while they heal up, then send them back in. Use their high armour-piercing damage to pound enemy characters into the ground, or else just charge them around like big hairy bowling balls to disrupt the enemy formation and make the most of the fact that they cause Terror.


Character-wise, Mannfred covers most of your bases - he's a passable combat lord and has a hugely versatile menu of spells. Spirit Leeching the enemy lord is always very effective as the AI has no real counterplay to it, and Invocation of Nehek is your bread and butter as a VC player. Other strategies I would think about when it comes to magic are:

LORE OF DEATH, Doom & Darkness + Soulblight - if you overcast these two on the same section of the enemy line then the combined debuff to leadership is fairly severe. Combine this with a solid charge from your blob and the Terror from your Varghulfs and in the right circumstances you can trigger a mass rout very quickly. This works best if you've brought some Dire Wolves or similar to keep the enemy running once they break.

LORE OF VAMPIRES, Raise Dead - with 7 charges per caster this lets you spam a ridiculous number of zombies or skeletons onto the battlefield. Just with Mannfred it's a great tool for shutting down missile troops (run up on a horse or flying mount and raise zombies underneath them), but you can double down on Raise Dead by bringing a Necromancer (if you mount him on an Unholy Lodestone corpse cart he can replace your usual support wagon). With 2 LoV casters you'll have 14 charges of Raise Dead, meaning you can theoretically bring 1,680 zombies onto the battlefield for no cost other than winds of magic. Swamped and surrounded, the enemy will have no way to actually focus down the units that matter.

LORE OF VAMPIRES, Wind of Death - this is your "nuke" spell and it's one of the few that can win games on its own. Against enemy armies that are fielding a solid infantry line, square up your zombies to their line and hold the rest of your blob a short distance back. Run Mannfred out to the flank as they engage, then send an overcast Wind of Death down the line once they get stuck on the zombies. If you angle it right you can completely wipe out 3-4 units' width of their line in a few seconds. It does cost a lot of Winds of Magic though, so don't expect to be casting too much stuff after the initial strike if you use this.

It's worth thinking hard about what kind of magic you want to use, as one of Mannfred's main draws is that with his unique abilities and legendary items, he boosts + regenerates Winds of Magic more than any other character in the game. So with 2 lores and extra Winds to spend you should make sure you get the most out of his casting.


All the above is one fairly safe build, but Vampires are very flexible and there are a few you could try. The vampire air roster is very strong, so you could replace the Blood Knights + Varghulfs with Vargheists + Terrorgheists to accompany Mannfred on a Hellsteed or Zombie Dragon. Ethereal units are also interesting and quite a strong counter to Chaos when Archaon arrives (as Cairn Wraiths pierce armour and all those expensive Chaos infantry don't do magical damage). As long as you get the hang of how to exploit enemy morale and use magic to keep your army in the fight, you should be alright.

[Grim Portent]

Vampire monsters are also better suited to smashing down gates than other armies because they get better support to help them reach the walls. A pair of Varghulfs can usually make it to the wall with with only half the health lost on one of them, which can easily be restored by the Lore of Vampires.

Orks, Beastman and Chaos monsters by comparison have no/little healing support.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I see. How does this setup deal with city walls?

[Blackhawk748]

Don't forget Hexwraiths. They are so many kinds of wonderful.

[LCP]

Run the Varghulfs and Crypt Horrors at the gates - they will smash them down very quickly, probably before the rest of your infantry catch up - then funnel your blob through the breach. Your Varghulfs have enough mass to push through & break up enemy encirclement on the other side, and in a big mosh pit your healing gives you the advantage. Particularly as you can use Raise Dead to disrupt and cut off enemy reinforcements, or achieve a double surround. If you have a Mortis Engine too to drain away the HP of the enemy gate defenders then it's all gravy.

You can also send your zombies to make ladder assaults if you want to tie up units on the walls. They'll die but that's what they're for. If you went for Vargheists over Blood Knights then they are also very strong siege attackers - fly them over the walls then double back and charge the defenders in the rear.

If you are not rushed for time on the campaign map of course, Grave Guard in siege towers work just as well as any other heavy infantry. They're a very solid main line unit - not all-star killing machines like Black Orcs, but very reliable and effective for their cost.

[Grim Portent]

Two methods for sieges I've used in the past for VCs, Mannfred specifically, was fully mounted and fully flying forces and just ignoring the walls completely.

Mounted force was, mostly due to early game cost cutting, something along the lines of:

Spoiler

Show

Mannfred on Barded Nightmare
3 Varghulfs
RR Black Knights
RR Dire Wolves
RR Hexwraiths
8 Black Knights with Lances
5 Dire Wolves

2 Varghulfs charged one gate, the third deployed on the far side of the castle and charged the gate there, Mannfred and all the rest of the army hung back out of missile range. Mannfred had to dart forwards to heal a Varghulf that was badly hurt by the time it reached the gate, but once they were under the gatehouse the defenders couldn't shoot them.

Once the gates broke everything that had been hanging back made a beeline for the capture point, a bunch of the Wolves got caught up fighting the defenders, but the cavalry just disengaged and started wrecking the artillery and Lord who were hanging around the capture point. Then I just split the force in two, left one unit of Knights to hold the point while everything else started chasing down fleeing injured units or heading off the attempts to retake the point. Enemy army wound up nearly broken, capture point runs down to nothing, fortress captured.

The army worked better in normal fights as a simple shock cavalry hit and run force, but it could take on walls regardless. In later game turns or if Mannfred was my main Lord it would basically be all Blood Knights and Hexwraiths.

The other was a longer time ago, though in my campaign at the moment Mannfred is in the process of building the same basic army again.

Spoiler

Show

Mannfred on Hellsteed/Zombie Dragon
7 Terrorgheists
12 Vargheists

Tactic is simple as mud, everything flies over the walls, kills the enemy General, rips apart any artillery hanging around and then just starts assaulting whatever makes a good target until the enemy's morale breaks. Works fine as long as you can keep them healed and avoid crumbling, which Mannfred can do just fine. Anti-Large enemies are a pain, but that's why Mannfred can learn so many buffing/debuffing spells.

Outside of Mannfred I usually just train a battering ram, drop it and have my undead rush the walls to put up ladders. I prefer Vargheists to Horrors and Terrorgheists to Varghulfs, so I don't usually need to worry about getting monsters/monstrous infantry into the walls since they fly, and I usually keep cavalry out of my infantry armies since they'll run out of range of my passive Lord buffs most of the time, and honestly do bugger all for an infantry army that fliers can't also do.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Thank you once again! Okay...so now that I've asked about those other factions, you know what's coming next:

What would a solid 20-troop setup for the Empire be?

From what I've seen, I could probably take a lot of inspiration from the Greenskin lineup, since like the Empire they have a lot of variety. Tell me if I'm on the right track here:

Karl Franz
1 Wizard (This could be tricky since with the DLC the Empire's got more options in this regard than any other faction)
3 Greatswords
4 Halberdiers
2...Free Company Militia, maybe? I'm not quite sure what'd replace the Nasty Skulkers in this regard.
1...Steam Tank? Luminark of Hysh? The Empire doesn't really have "Monsters" the way the Greenskins and Vampire Counts do.
2...I've got no clue, this was where the Trolls were in LCP's Greenskin setup and I'm not sure what the Empire has that'd be equivalent.
2 Cannons? I'm not sure how Imperial artillery differs from Dwarfen ones.
2 Demigryph Knights (My understanding is that these guys PWN ALL)
2 Outriders (for harassment, war machine breaking, and pursuit)

[Grim Portent]

If they haven't been nerfed yet the best Empire army is just Demigryph Knights.

More seriously, 6-8 anvil infantry units of your choise, 4 artillery of choice, 6 archers/marksmen, 2-4 shock cavalry of choice is a pretty good line up for Empire.

[LCP]

That certainly looks like it would work, but I wouldn't go unit-for-unit with that greenskin composition. The greenskins are a lot more rushy than the Empire - Empire have got excellent ranged capability and it's worth taking advantage of, whereas their infantry is a little on the weak side.

Empire have got probably the broadest selection of tools in the game and so there are multiple different directions you can go in, all of which are strong - but the best place to start is probably choosing a wizard. With access to all lores except Death (and realistically, Metal, because Balthasar Gelt is the worst) you can really have your pick of what magic synergises best with which units.

What I would think of is:

General of the Empire/Karl Franz/BORIS TODBRINGER (the man, the legend - only available if you confederate Middenland). On griffon as soon as possible.
Jade Wizard (going for Regrowth and Earth Blood). Mount on pegasus if the enemy has no fliers, or on a horse if they do (once a mount has been unlocked you can switch back to riding previous mounts/no mount in the character screen)
4 Halberdiers
4 Greatswords
4 Crossbows/Handgunners
Steam Tank
1 Great Cannon/Helstorm Rocket Battery
2 Demigryph Knights with Halberds
2 Empire Knights/Reiksguard/Knights of the Blazing Sun

Regrowth and Earth Blood both bring back HP but not dead models, which means they are most effective on high-HP-per-model units like Demigryphs, the Steam Tank, and your Griffon. A Steam Tank with Jade Wizard backup can seem almost indestructible. Earth Blood and Shield of Thorns are both also nice spells for buffing up your infantry line due to a decent-sized AoE.

You put pressure on the enemy to move forwards using your artillery piece and the cannon on the Steam Tank, while your infantry hold the line and your missile troops open up from a safe position. When the lines meet you swing your cavalry in from the flanks and use the Terror from your griffon + steam tank to start a mass rout. With halberds the Demigryphs will be able to tear down pretty much any enemy cavalry or monster unit, while the regular cav help you clean up and run down the enemy infantry.

RoR notes: The Altdorf Gryphites regiment of renown allow you to get Terror on one of your halberd demigryphs, which is invaluable (and they look purty too). The Hammer of Witches and Silver Bullets are very nice replacements for your artillery/handgunner slots vs late-game VC as they do magical damage. Sigmar's Sons are a very nice unit to sub into your main line as they are Unbreakable and quite tanky in combat. Finally, if you have 3 stacks of 20 zombies coming at you then nothing makes a mess of a huge blob of unarmoured troops like the Sunmaker.

This is just one build that I would think of as being pretty safe and flexible. With a Light Wizard, you can go for a more missile-heavy build that makes maximum use of Net of Amyntok (the Templehof Luminark RoR will let you bring two Nets). With a Beast Wizard, you can go with a more mobile army that focuses on harassment and cavalry cycle-charging while you wear the enemy down with Flock of Doom. With a Shadow wizard you can go with a defensive army that tries to corral the enemy into the right formations to use Pit of Shades and Penumbral Pendulum. Etcetera etcetera. Empire are definitely a faction where I'd say you should recruit as many wizards as you can, as early as you can, and have one in each army.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I didn't know you could get Todbringer as a general! That's so cool! Speaking of him, now I'm looking for a solid Beastmen army, something that can work in An Eye for an Eye and the Grand Campaign beyond it. It seems like Beastmen handle like a blend of Chaos and Greenskins, as they move in hordes rather than conquer settlements, but are mostly lightly armored.

Also, does that mean Grimgor could get Skarsnik or Wurrzag if he confederates with the Crooked Moon or Bloody Handz? I know you can recruit Azhag if you build a Shaman's Hut, but the idea of all the Greenskin legendary lords united in a single playthrough sounds...epic!

[Grim Portent]

Beastmen are best used as shock troopers, hit and run tactics, so on and so forth. The poor armour makes them mediocre at a stand up fight, much like in tabletop. Lots of their better units have a good charge bonus and want to pull out of the melee and rush back in multiple times.

The big problem for Beastmen is that they have guys with the leadership of Orcs, Ungor/Gors run really quickly if they're losing a fight, and don't hit very hard either, and Beastlords and the Heros are best built to murderise things rather than provide leadership buffs because they have really good combat stats that just get better the more you invest in them.

Good units off the top of my head are Minotaurs (for every lord but Morghur who makes them more expensive and Spawn cheaper), the Gorebull hero unit, the shaman hero, I think all the Lores they get are roughly equivalent, Bestigors, Cygors, Giants and Centigors. Everything else is basically useless chaff as I recall, though some of that chaff has Vanguard which makes it mildly useful.

Decent list is something like:

Khazrak
Gorebull
Shaman
3 Minotaurs
3 Cygors (think of them as artillery rather than monsters, actual melee fights will shred them)
4 Gor with Shields
2 Giants
5 Bestigors

Gors with shields go first to soak up arrows, Bestigors and Khazrak follow close behind as an actually decent melee unit with Shaman nearby for magical support. Minotaurs and Gorebull charge in from an angle once the battle has started and rely on their insanely good charge bonus to break some units off the bat. Cygors pelt the enemy with rocks, like any artillery, though they should be stuck in some woods for a modicum of safety. The giants accompany the Bestigors to provide the Terror debuff for enemies and act as a linebreaker unit. A centigor unit or two could be swapped in for a Gor/Bestigor unit to go hunt artillery in the enemy backline.

If Khazrak is on a chariot I'd probably swap the Bestigors and Gors out for a bunch of Centigors, some with shields some with great weapons, just so I'm not wasting the speed advantage from the chariot.

[LCP]

I don't think the exercise works the same way for horde factions. Because you have limited growth points to spend and you pretty much have to source all your units from one recruitment centre (i.e. the horde they come from), the composition of your horde is much more strongly impacted by your building slots (and what other collateral benefits those buildings might have). Unfortunately I don't remember the non-recruitment benefits of the beastman building chain that well. Upkeep is also much more important as you can't pump your economy up to sustain super-elite armies - the only way to boost your income is to have more stacks raiding more settlements simultaneously, which IMO inclines the faction towards more cost-effective builds.

My general thoughts for something that would do well on the battlefield would be:

• Beastmen are a pure rush faction. You want a small group of hard hitters, and then fill out the rest of your stack with a tidal wave of cheap infantry that can envelop and overwhelm the enemy line. You have a lot of Vanguard potential in your core infantry, but they tend to struggle without the support of your Vanguard-less big hitters, so use it judiciously. At its top level, the core infantry building lets you recruit Bestigor, but they are something of a trap - they take 3 turns to recruit (during which your horde must be stationary), have a very high upkeep cost and don't stack up well to similar elites. I'd only recruit them if you end up falling out with Archaon, as they are the only beastmen infantry who can survive against Chaos Warriors and Forsaken. Otherwise your regular gor will do the job.
• Minotaurs are maybe the most heavyweight units in the Beastmen roster - they're very fast and they cause extreme damage (with very entertaining attack animations). Use them like you would heavy cavalry. The regular variant are great for clearing up infantry, and the great weapon variant can make a real mess of enemy monsters and cavalry - even demigryphs. The minotaur building line also gives you access to Gorebulls which are possibly the best heroes in the game; get one for every army if you can.
• Centigors are extremely fast, and the great weapon variant is quite killy against armoured targets. Combined with Razorgor herds, warhounds and harpies they can make for a very zippy team that hunts down enemy missile troops and light cav (targets for which minos would be overkill), but can go toe-to-toe with heavy cav if intercepted.
• Beastmen have some good magic options in Death and Beasts (although the changes to summoning have made Wild pretty rubbish). You can use Death for spirit leeching + terror bomb in the same way as discussed for the vamps, or Beasts for Flock of Doom + Manticore summons (particularly effective as an anti-air strategy if you've brought Harpies to support). Shamans are also the more effective agents on the overland map compared to Gorebulls, so it's worth training one for each horde. Get them chariots to make them faster and more survivable.
• Giants are identical to their Greenskin and Chaos Warrior cousins - very good at beating down individual heroes and the fastest way to smash open a city gate (although gorebulls and minos can also do that), but very vulnerable to missiles.
• Cygors are very effective against dense infantry in open field battles, but by the time you can recruit them your horde is likely to be strong enough that most battles you'll fight will be sieges, where they don't really shine. I'd only use them in a late-game fight with the dwarfs, as dwarf stacks are strong enough to come out of their holds to fight you, and those boulders really make a mess of dwarf infantry blocks.

So ideally I would suggest something along the lines of:

LEADERSHIP
Morghur (the best beastman lord by a long shot, available if you beat the WE mini-campaign)/Khazrak/Beastlord
Shaman (Beasts or Death), on chariot ASAP.
Giant, to guard your lord if he's on foot - if he's on a chariot he'll be fast enough to run with the minos. If so you might want to sub this guy out for more minos or infantry, but he'll still be very useful for clobbering enemy monsters and knocking down gates. Definitely keep him if you've brought a Death shaman as he provides Terror (your minos only have Fear - although you can hand out Terror to your regular troops with Aspect of the Dreadknight if you have enough Winds of Magic when the clash occurs).

MOO SQUAD
Gorebull <<<--- the most important unit. In MP most people run 2, but you'll only be able to recruit 1 per horde so concentrating 2 in one army means leaving another army without its Gorebull.
4 Minos (2 regular, 2 great weapons)

FAST PURSUIT
2 Centigor with great weapons/Razorgor herds (Centigor if you expect a cavalry fight, Razorgor if you're hunting infantry)
2 Harpies/Poison Warhounds (Harpies for hunting missile infantry/supporting a Beasts shaman with ToK, Poison Warhounds for helping Centigor hunt down missile cavalry/running down routing troops from a Death Shaman's terror bomb)

^ Against dwarfs you may want to replace this section of the list with a couple of Cygors and a couple of Ungor Raiders (use their Stalk and Vanguard abilities to sneak up on artillery pieces and quickly shoot them to death, provided you can avoid any return fire from Quarrelers) - you don't need these guys when the fastest thing you're facing is a Slayer. Harpies can still do some work against Gyrocopters though.

THE HERD
6 Gor Herd (whichever variant you like best)
2 Ungor Spears (to guard flanks against cav)

Strategy is just to rush, wrap around and destroy. If you've brought a Beasts shaman you can use your speed (even your infantry are faster than regular infantry) to delay and encircle while you throw down Flock of Doom on dense enemy formations; if you've brought a Death shaman you can time your terror bomb with your initial charge to shatter the enemy line right off the bat.

This build does require I think at least 6 building slots, which will take a long time for your horde to develop. The first thing to do is to get the core infantry and minotaur producing buildings; all the fancy stuff like Giants, Centigors, Harpies and Shamans can be replaced by more infantry for the herd that you cut back as your horde develops.

Also, does that mean Grimgor could get Skarsnik or Wurrzag if he confederates with the Crooked Moon or Bloody Handz? I know you can recruit Azhag if you build a Shaman's Hut, but the idea of all the Greenskin legendary lords united in a single playthrough sounds...epic!

I think you can get them if you confederate them while they are unwounded (i.e. present on the campaign map). However I also think (not 100% sure) that if you confederate a LL that doesn't belong to your faction, they won't be legendary - they get permadeath like regular schmoes once they're confederated.

[Grim Portent]

At its top level, the core infantry building lets you recruit Bestigor, but they are something of a trap - they take 3 turns to recruit (during which your horde must be stationary), have a very high upkeep cost and don't stack up well to similar elites. I'd only recruit them if you end up falling out with Archaon, as they are the only beastmen infantry who can survive against Chaos Warriors and Forsaken. Otherwise your regular gor will do the job.

Nor sure I'd call Bestigors a trap myself. They're certainly expensive compared to the standard Gor and Ungor units, but they have much better staying power. While you don't want to have tons of them in every horde I'd definitely say you want your main horde to have them form a good chunk of your infantry line unless you're avoiding infantry entirely in that army.

[LCP]

I would think of them as a trap in a strategic sense. 3 turns to recruit a unit that has no shield and low melee defence. They hold out better than Gors but they still take a lot of casualties in the process. Then if you want to replenish, you either have to sit still for ages watching them heal up, or sit still for 3 turns to recruit more. Hidden encampment helps with that but as a horde faction I think you always want to be trying to maximise your time spent on the offensive.

Generally with beastmen I think the infantry are there to keep the enemy busy and overwhelm their weak troops, while the monsters are there to do the actual work - you can allow the cheap infantry to rout & return as long as they serve to give the Minos free rein. Army-wide buffs from the Gorebull skill tree can also make regular Gor and Ungor a lot better than their base stats imply.

[Grim Portent]

I suppose that's accurate, but the incentive to use Gors is purely that they're cheap, which is not something I generally consider when running my major armies.

I lean towards my main armies/hordes being composed entirely of the most elite units I can field, largely because I tend to get caught in big fights that bog them down when I can't just autoresolve things away. In VCs this means armies of Grave Guard backed up by monsters and death magic that grinds the enemy chaff until it breaks then mops up everything else, in Beastmen, who are not suited to grinding fights, this generally means pouring everything onto the first charge doing as much as possible. Standard line soldiers become a liability in 2 or 3 vs 1 fights because you need everything to hit hard and kill as many enemies as possible.

I'd actually be tempted to ignore (or ig-Gor! Hehehe... I'll leave now) the basic infantry of Beastmen entirely in favour of going heavy on the fastest hardest hitting things they have. Other than anti-large there's not much that threatens Minotaurs or Cygors, and I've had good experiences in the past (as VCs and WoC) with leveraging everything into good mobility and high charge bonuses. I've found all monster armies work well with Kholek in the past, readily defeating 3 armies of equal size, and I'm inclined to think Beastmen with Minotaurs would probably be able to function in a similar fashion.

[LCP]

I don't disagree with anything you say, I just think it's a difference in approach. With one super-elite horde you will be very safe from having to start from scratch after your primary horde gets caught and wiped out, and you'll be able to muscle through multiple enemy armies at once. With multiple more cost-effective horde you'll be able to coordinate more effective blitzkrieg attacks on the campaign map, suppress a much broader area of land in which your enemy can't retreat and recover, and have a much stronger cash flow from razing and raiding - but you'll be much more vulnerable to getting jumped, may have to coordinate some tactical retreats from strong army groups or well-fortified cities, and if for any reason your offensive campaign stalls then your money drains away that much quicker for having more stacks.

Personally I find that if an army gets too OTT in the amount of spend it represents then it stops being fun to use - either you're autoresolving with 100% odds in your favour or you're playing the odd game out just to mess about roflstomping the AI. The only time you're going to get an interesting fight is when the AI bundles its armies into death balls, and with Lightning Strike and Beastman ambushes/hidden encampments you can deal with that with a lower-quality stack too. That's half the fun of a beastman campaign for me - getting into the raiding guerilla playstyle.

Kholek and a stack of Dragon Ogres is obviously great fun though, if you've got to that point. And I have no problem with Bestigor when considered solely on the battlefield - in MP I use them pretty frequently.

EDIT: TBH I think Warriors of Chaos and Beastmen kind of represent the two opposite ends of this spectrum. Warriors start with a single horde, take penalties from having their hordes work close together, and can concentrate more force in one stack than any other faction. Beastmen start with two hordes, take no penalties from proximity, have campaign map abilities that level the playing field against stronger enemy armies, and don't have many units that can really rival other factions' elites.

[Grim Portent]

It's probably just a habit I got into from my first WoC campaign. Was playing on Hard or Very Hard, I forget which, and never managed to get any Lord but Kholek to survive more than a few turns, and that was just because he was my first one and had time to grow with my threats.

Which is a problem I have with the horde army mechanics really, since each new horde starts from scratch it's really punishing for one to get wrecked, since their replacement is basically worthless for dozens of turns unless you spend ages building a new army for them with your other hordes. By comparison the landed races usually have 2-3 provinces that can train their end game units.

[LCP]

Yeah, the AI likes to hunt down hordes pretty ruthlessly if it thinks it's got a stronger stack to sic on them. That's the nice thing about Beastmen being immune to the proximity attrition, though - you can use your developed hordes to babysit new ones.

[Grim Portent]

They certainly do love hunting down weak hordes.

At one point I trained Sigvald and had him go sit in the area around Bjornling Camp to mature his army until he had Chosen and could take on the Empire in an actual fight. The Empire sent two armies to hunt him down within about 5 turns through three provinces that Kholek had burned to chaos corrupted ashes, and Kholek himself had already sailed away to attack the Dwarves so I could try and secure an alliance with Grimgor and make a tidy profit on the side.

Turns out Marauders aren't a match for Empire Knights and Mortars.

Luckily Dwarves are no match for Shaggoths.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Wow, that's a lot of important stuff I'll have to remember. Thanks!

[LCP]

I'd honestly say the WoC campaign is the hardest currently available, and not in a good way. Their roster is great fun but they need more work on the campaign map. To me Beastmen feel much more fully developed as a grand campaign, even though their roster is a little more limited.

I played a very enjoyable versus campaign once as Archaon vs. Karl Franz. Me and my opponent were pretty evenly matched on the battle map, but by the time I'd built my forces up enough to actually push south and try to bring about the whole End Times deal he'd already built his economy into an unbeatable machine. It was a lot of fun (due to having a good opponent) but it doesn't feel representative of the lore that when played by a human Chaos spends most of the game as a scrappy underdog.

Supposedly though the last game in the trilogy is going to be all about Chaos, so there may be a rework incoming in the long term. What I'd really love to see is the Ruinous Powers becoming a more active presence in a WoC playthrough. Right now it feels way too much Warriors and not enough Chaos.

[Grim Portent]

Wow, that's a lot of important stuff I'll have to remember. Thanks!

Beastmen are ultimately not too hard, a bit harder than the guys with settlements, but they have some really good hard hitters to make up for it in fights even though they are a bit glass cannon-y.

Just make a beeline for minotaurs in your tech tree and building upgrades and enjoy smashing things with them. Maybe try a few custom battles to see what weapon and unit combos you like.

Be careful with Beast Path movement when near enemies, because if they catch you and beat you it's a wipeout with no way to salvage anything. Spend a while hanging around and burning up the lesser factions like Estalia, Tilea, the Border Princes and the southern Brettonian dukes with 2-3 armies to get the population bonuses from razing and exp spread out a bit, then when you want to build clump up for safety and upgrade everyone at once.

You basically want to treat your armies like a single army of huge size rather than as separate armies. Stay close, don't fight fair, be willing to take your time but remember to keep moving, your income relies on war.



Personally after my initial forays into Beastmen I did download a mod that gave their core building enough of an income to support a simple army and slow upgrading without needing to constantly raid, just so I didn't have to rush about fighting constantly and could spend a few turns marshalling my strength rather than constantly going from brawl to brawl just to meet my upkeep costs.

Also downloaded one of the 'hero adventuring party' mods that give you really high caps on how many heroes you can have so you can play out heroic 10 men against an army type scenarios, which turns out weird when you forget to turn it off and the AI start using it. I had about 70 Warherd of Chaos Shamans and Gorebulls clustered about Kislev during the Chaos incursion in my most recent game.

[LCP]

And remember to raid! A lot of the time you'll be in situations where you're waiting for the right moment to attack (e.g. reinforcements on the way, waiting for the enemy to make a move). If you don't need to be hidden then raiding is a great way to boost your income. Get a big stack raiding a rich province like Marienburg and you can easily be raking in 1000 a turn.

[Grim Portent]

Also, burn the Wood Elves as early as is feasible. All the 'evil' factions should do so, the WEs have some big tech bonuses to diplomacy in the late game that screw up your ability to ally with other factions and they hate all the evil factions, especially Beastmen, so alliances with the Elves are hard to get and it's easier to just murder them all before they can get to the point where the freaking Greenskins want to protect them.

Seriously, in my current VCs run the Greenskins broke up their alliances with me because they didn't like me attacking the Elves, who somehow have a +70 tech bonus to diplomacy with everyone.

Beware the Elves.