An Enemy Spy Plays F.A.T.A.L!

[ErebusVonMori]

This is every gaming group I've been in believe it or not, FATAL just has a horrific reputation (no idea why) in British universities, and newly arrived students can't believe it's that bad. Part of the reason is it's on the list of games not allowed to be run on roleplay society time, and in font three times the size of the other entries.

We usually get a wide-eyed 'when will the screaming inside my head stop?' apology the next day, although I may be mistaken and it's just a hangover.

Although in hindsight yes part of the group I was with genuinely was a cult. Two cults actually. And that's where I'll leave that subject.

[Anonymouswizard]

Noone has ever tried to defend bad mathematics.

You're lucky, you've obviously never had to talk to undergrad Games Design students. I've previously seen them argue that a game doesn't have to be tested, and one refused to believe you can roughly balance a game mathematically.

That acronym is a retrofit - the first edition had a different acronym, "Fantasy Adventure to Adult Lechery", a title that really fits the rest of the game.

As I remember the official story is that the first expansion is also a retrofit. Couldn't they just have picked a name?

[ErebusVonMori]

My apologies, I stand corrected and I'll rephrase, no one not high from smoking their own ego has ever tried to defend bad mathematics

[AMX]

As I remember the official story is that the first expansion is also a retrofit. Couldn't they just have picked a name?

But they did, didn't they?

They picked "fatal" (presumably because they felt it sounded cool) then made up an explanation for it.

[Cluedrew]

You're lucky, you've obviously never had to talk to undergrad Games Design students. I've previously seen them argue that a game doesn't have to be tested, and one refused to believe you can roughly balance a game mathematically.

Those two positions seem quite distinct from each other, if you can't balance a game mathematically/theoretically, how would you do so without play-testing it?

Having seen a lot of people entering the world of game design, I do get that a lot of people underestimate the need for revision (also the need for actual work), but few dismiss it entirely. Or maybe we just weed out those really fast around here, its a hobbyist environment so those who... underestimate the activity tend to leave pretty quickly. Those that are left tend to have their wits about them. Or we are all crazy.

[Anonymouswizard]

But they did, didn't they?

They picked "fatal" (presumably because they felt it sounded cool) then made up an explanation for it.

Sorry, I shall correct myself. Why couldn't they have picked a name and not have it stand for anything?

Those two positions seem quite distinct from each other, if you can't balance a game mathematically/theoretically, how would you do so without play-testing it?

Having seen a lot of people entering the world of game design, I do get that a lot of people underestimate the need for revision (also the need for actual work), but few dismiss it entirely. Or maybe we just weed out those really fast around here, its a hobbyist environment so those who... underestimate the activity tend to leave pretty quickly. Those that are left tend to have their wits about them. Or we are all crazy.

It's weird, I've only met one person at that extreme, but the Games Design course at my university is apparently so heavily slanted away from the hard maths stuff that most people didn't realise how important it is.

But yes, I've met one person who wants to design video games and believes balance is utterly unimportant. I mean I was arguing from a different standpoint because I design tabletop games as a hobby, and balance is even more important there because the player can directly see your rules. Nobody who did that course had any real desire to make a tabletop game, and a good number of them should have been doing creative writing because that's what I was arguing about.

On the 'hobby tabletop games design' a lot of balancing is essentially done by crowdsourcing a variety of opinions to get it to about the right level before it goes into playtesting.

Oh joy of joys, I'm currently writing a d20 (not d20 system) Steampulp game (think Steampunk*, but explicitly focused on the potential), I'll need a lot of work balancing it to make sure inventors don't overpower everyone else with their relative versatility but don't have their inventions reduced to uselessness (build 0.1 makes them essentially have to jump through three talents [feats] to get the ability to actually build stuff, with a 'repair/modify/build feat chain, but I'm making talents much more common in return for far fewer class features). It's going to be a slow purpose but it'll be worth it.

* Potentially not true Steampunk for the Space Opera variant but Steampunk+Magitech, but that's not the core which is what I'm focusing on.

[Lord_Bigot]

We begin with Condolfadis resting in a field. Condolfadis has set up a camp in a countryside, near a cliff face. Her tent is in front of a small, as of yet unlit campfire. The sun has recently set, and Condolfadis is taking time to relax after her walk, counting towards her strict 11 hour daily quota. She has unloaded her pack. She stands up, walking to the edge of the cliff face, and starts attempting to carve the unholy symbol of Abaddon in the rock she is camping atop. With a solid Engraving roll of 51, after almost half an hour the symbol is complete.
Rachdang stands a distance away, watching the carving. He has been roaming the wilderness, searching for food, but despite his search roll of 101 leading him to a literal 15 ft tall pile of rabbits, they were numerous and aggressive and had the LP to completely destroy him in open Warfare. Now they watch Condolfadis from the shadows. As Condolfadis takes a quick glance over the countryside with a Search of 114 (natural 100) Rachdang is spotted skillfully hidden with a Hide of 91. Condolfadis interprets this as threatening, and picks up the necessary materials to cast Bestow Fatigue as they traverse the slope to the right and approach the shady flower bush Rachdang is hiding under. With a pitiful Reflection roll of -27, Rachdang forgets that he was only hiding to stay out of her view and stays right where he is. Condolfadis sneaks up slowly on his position with a 71 Hide vs his 89 Search. He ducks out of cover just before Condolfadis gets within 50 ft, and their mutual hostile awareness results in an initiative roll, for the first round of this encounter. Condolfadis rolls a 52 and Rachdang rolls a 16 (natural 1). Condolfadis is capable of casting 4 1st level spells in one round. As the range is cleared, Condolfadis casts Bestow Virus. "UZEU I'D^T'RGX A YANE!!!" Condolfadis says in the span of 740 milliseconds. Rachdang shakes it off, but Condolfadis recognizes this and casts it again, and again, and hasn't enough MP to cast it a fourth time, but each time Rachdang clears the Threshold each time with his exceptional Health score. Rachdang wants to throw a hand axe, but has a maximum range of 8 ft. He runs into combat, sprinting 26 feet in one round. Condolfadis is concerned about their ability to fight the enraged, seemingly animalistic kobold. Initiative is rerolled. This time, Condolfadis gets an 80 and... Rachdang scores also gets an 80. Despite the reasonable chance of this happening in a many character combat, no rules are included for this eventuality. I decide to flip a coin, and Rachdang acts first. He runs 16 feet and chucks his axe with a 104 to hit, qualifying for automatic Crucial Damage. They score a powerful hit to the Left Armpit, causing Condolfadis' left lung to begin to fill with blood. Condolfadis falls down, unable to act and doomed to die in 9 seconds. But it also deals 24 points of damage, which is enough to automatically kill her before the suffocation can take effect. Rachdang attempts to loot her, but with a Search roll of 41 leaves him unable to find any food. However, despite this, he recalls her camp and with a single minded devotion searches the place for the obviously placed food. His 30 is enough to find the bread and vegetables she has, stacked against the wall, and pausing for a brief feast he packs the remainder in her backpack and is on his merry way.

And after all of those painstaking hours of work making a character sheet Condolfadis died in a heartbeat, with one blow killing them in TWO different ways. I never actually calculated their real CA but as an armorless character with mediocre Agility, Condolfadis wasn't going to be the 84 they needed. I might reuse this two characters in a different scenario and prepare a short dungeon to demonstrate some faulty game mechanics outside of instant death. I'll give them four rooms: a creature encounter, a magical trap, a social encounter, and a randomly generated hoard. Or I might not. idk

I thought playing this game would give me an insight into it's flaws and it's redeemable traits, but the big problems I've seen so far are aimless discrimination and unimportant detail. I can appreciate having to adapt to the dies rolls I get, and bonly being able to decide my character's Race, Gender and Occupation, but do we really need to calculate the exact width of out character's head, or the largest jigsaw they can solve, or the width of their nipples? And do you really have to offhandedly say that your race determined your ability irl? Did you have to make a load of fantasy races and then say none of them can be gay? Were you unable to resist saying anyone who is unintelligent is probably some kind of ugly, uncultured brute? I have questions to ask the designer of this game.
I could forgive awfulness of the game in theory. But in practice, this game encourages racial/sexual vilification and rape/pedophilia. Anyone who plays this game and has an enjoyable experience will walk out viewing those things as slightly less evil than when they started. Those who already engage in such activities will feel reassured. I don't think any discussion to remind people of what is wrong with this game is complete without saying this.

[Cluedrew]

"Anyone who plays this game and has an enjoyable experience" is already in very desperate need of help.

Is the game combat focused? Because that sounds like a pretty terrible main loop, dying in the first round of combat only works in systems where you are supposed to avoid combat.

[Anonymouswizard]

"Anyone who plays this game and has an enjoyable experience" is already in very desperate need of help.

Is the game combat focused? Because that sounds like a pretty terrible main loop, dying in the first round of combat only works in systems where you are supposed to avoid combat.

But it's REALISTIC1!!!!!, which obvious makes it better.

And remember, character creation requires you to not only alter your stats based on your age, race, gender, and potentially the current day of the week (might be somewhere in the 900 pages), which is REALISTIC1!!!!! in and of itself, but also has you roll for your genitals, outstanding features, hair length, chest size, anal circumference, nipple diameter, nipple length, hair colour, and so on, all of which can change your stats because it's REALISTIC1!!!!!. Then to be REALISTIC1!!!!! you can't choose your race, date of birth, or social class.

You do get to chose your gender, because this game is all about being REALISTIC1!!!!!.

But then a strict reading of the rules reveals that you're only supposed to roll for your parent's occupations, and can technically choose your own. If you rolled noble for your social class and your bad's profession was 'King' I recommend picking Bandit, because if that's not REALISTIC1!!!!! then I know what is.

And then after you've spent 2 hours creating a new character because your first died in combat you can see if any of the party made it to round 2 and come up with an excuse to join up with the survivors.

[Tectorman]

I was a little worried about clicking on this one, so thank you for sanitizing the experience a bit for us.

As well, what is with the age? I mean the other aspects of the system are probably worse from a moral perspective... but can't people just do math and see that 4d100/5-25 gives 55 to -24.2. I wonder how you are supposed to handle a character with negative ages.

I think I know. You're supposed to be an unfertilized egg in a woman's ovaries. Which is probably the safest thing to be in this world.

The good news is that you don't have to roll for anal circumference potential. The bad news is that after you're fertilized, the first thing to form is the anus...

[An Enemy Spy]

My schedule is busier than usual this week as I'm possibly going through a slight career change, but as soon as I get a day to do it I'll work on skills and hopefully finish Kiki, because yikes, you do not want to do the skills in this game unless you have a clear schedule in front of you. I estimate there are 216 skills on this massive multi-page table, some of them as delightfully esoteric as Delousing or Girdlemaking, and some that are just stupid(though not unexpected) like Urinating. I bet Byron Hall and his minions had a good laugh about that one.

[Cluedrew]

REALISTIC1!!!!! [...] REALISTIC1!!!!! [...] REALISTIC1!!!!! [...] REALISTIC1!!!!! [...] REALISTIC1!!!!! [...] REALISTIC1!!!!!

Out of the 3 truly terrible systems I have any really knowledge of (F.A.T.A.L., SUE & deadEarth) all of them have made heavy claims of being realistic. I wonder why? Is realism something people tend to pursue excessively in game design? Is realism a handy shield to protect a system's faults? Or is it just luck that the terrible systems I have seen make that claim?

You're supposed to be an unfertilized egg in a woman's ovaries.

You know it is entirely biologically possible for your mother to not even be born 24 years before you are born. In modern culture it might be less common, but in historical medieval setting it would be the default for the older children. ... In other words, no, not even stretching rationalisation to its limits will save this system.

To An Enemy Spy: If there is any project that really deservers stopping and continuing once you are comfortable again, it is one like this.

[Anonymouswizard]

Out of the 3 truly terrible systems I have any really knowledge of (F.A.T.A.L., SUE & deadEarth) all of them have made heavy claims of being realistic. I wonder why? Is realism something people tend to pursue excessively in game design? Is realism a handy shield to protect a system's faults? Or is it just luck that the terrible systems I have seen make that claim?

I think it's the shield against criticism, it's certainly normal for realistic systems to be complex (look at GURPS). But I don't get it, being a game that's both good (debatable) and realistic (citation needed) doesn't stop GURPS from being criticised from those who don't like it.

On the other hand the good games I've seen have tended to emulate pulp stories in one or more aspects, and basically go 'this isn't all realistic, but we're not aiming for realism'. That doesn't mean that pulpy games are necessarily good games, just that the people who tend to write them will tend to write better games.

You know it is entirely biologically possible for your mother to not even be born 24 years before you are born. In modern culture it might be less common, but in historical medieval setting it would be the default for the older children. ... In other words, no, not even stretching rationalisation to its limits will save this system.

To An Enemy Spy: If there is any project that really deservers stopping and continuing once you are comfortable again, it is one like this.

I suppose until she's born you should roll up her mother and roleplay her status as an unfertilised egg, assuming that you aren't willing to sit out the game for a few hundred sessions (which is my recommendation).

[jindra34]

I think it's the shield against criticism, it's certainly normal for realistic systems to be complex (look at GURPS). But I don't get it, being a game that's both good (debatable) and realistic (citation needed) doesn't stop GURPS from being criticised from those who don't like it.

Here's the main difference between GURPS and the systems that tend to use 'realism' as a shield from criticism; GURPS includes a bloody bibliography, dares you to go check it yourself, and attempts to give accurate guesses as to what would happen if some elements of realism were thrown out. Also ye gods the research that is put into the books (GURPS 3e Biotech was considered about on par with a MEDICAL TEXT book in terms of information, quality and presentation...)

[Anonymouswizard]

Here's the main difference between GURPS and the systems that tend to use 'realism' as a shield from criticism; GURPS includes a bloody bibliography, dares you to go check it yourself, and attempts to give accurate guesses as to what would happen if some elements of realism were thrown out. Also ye gods the research that is put into the books (GURPS 3e Biotech was considered about on par with a MEDICAL TEXT book in terms of information, quality and presentation...)

True, GURPS is detailed enough that I'd be willing to pick up the books while running almost any other game. The books at least used to be just that detailed, and are still detailed enough for me to bother with it occasionally. It's also why I think GURPS excels at science fiction, the books past the core go into enough detail and then say 'here's where we got the info, feel free to check'.

Know to be fair, FATAL also lists it's sources. It just so happens to either be ancient Greek philosophy or the mind of the creator every single time.

I think there's also a difference in attitude between GURPS and games which use realism as a shield. As far as I can tell the writers of GURPS use 'it's a game' to protect them from being accused of insufficient realism, while the writers of the other games do it the other way around.

[Khedrac]

To An Enemy Spy: If there is any project that really deservers stopping and continuing once you are comfortable again, it is one like this.

I am far from convinced that this project deserves "continuing" - "stopping" yes, but it does not "deserve" continuing.

Now that isn't a comment to AES not to continue if (s)he wants to, but it does seem at times that FATAL is sufficiently terrible to fascinate people and it gets a lot more time on these boards that it "deserves". If we were going by what it "deserved" I would expect it to be a banned topic. The more people talk about it, the more other people are inspired to find out more and its pollution spreads further.
Case in point is the post about it being on a Uni Games club's rules as banned in large type - drawing people's attention to its existence. I spent 5 years (1988 to 1993) as a member of a university RPG society (I changed subject then stayed for a masters) and I had never even heard of the game until I first saw it mentioned on these boards. I think not drawing the attention of people still in their formative years (to a degree) to things like FATAL a good thing.

That said, I am reading this thread because I too find the awfulness of it to be fascinating, I am just comfortable enough in myself to feel no draw to seeking out a copy.

/em goes back to munching popcorn.

[An Enemy Spy]

Eh, FATAL is too stupid to be dangerous. Unlike certain other texts which I won't mention due to the politics ban, FATAL has no actual influence in the world, and remains as just a pretty obscure piece of dreck that gets occasionally brought up, laughed at, and then forgotten. Byron Hall's writing is so sophomoric that it's more pathetic than offensive. It's like a nine year old that just learned how to swear: foul enough to be unpleasant, but too immature to be hurtful.

[Cluedrew]

On GURPS: GURPS also has the advantage of being actually realistic and a good game (or so I have heard). The systems I mentioned earlier aren't even close to either of those things.

To Khedrac: Maybe, I think being for warned has some advantages as well. I warned some friends off some other questionable systems in the past because I have heard of them before hand. Or maybe it was only one. Anyways, if anything F.A.T.A.L. makes the backwards views it holds even worse by associating them with -24.2 year old characters. And I plan to never look directly at the rules of this game, so there is that.

[velinion]

Ran across this thread and... FATAL's a little like seeing a really bad car wreck. It's horrifying, and yet you somehow can't bring yourself to look away.

"Inspired" by others to try rolling a character, but after opening the PDF, I just couldn't bring myself to dig through it...

So I tried the official Character Creator program!

Yay, dark read text on a black background is just soooo cool, that it doesn't matter if it's almost impossible to read, right?

Also, it adds programming errors to already existing systemic errors. I was informed my random character's random age fell in the "Young Adult" category, but later detailed views showed the exact age to be... 0. Zero. So, a newborn young adult, I guess? Appears the zero is what carried on to modify most of the other physical stats too.

Gender: Female. Race: Dark Elf
Age: Young Adult (0)
I also re-rolled the lowest two stats (before modifiers) at the cost of aquiring two mental illnesses.
You have acquired mania
You have acquired avoidant personality disorder

Full stats (as output by the program) behind the spoiler.

Spoiler

Show

Sub-ability Score Skill Modifier
__________________________________________________ ______________________________
Physical Fitness: 106 3
Strength: 32 -44
Bodily Attractiveness: 145 22
Health: 89 -6
Facial: 123 12
Vocal: 107 3
Kinetic: 91 -3
Rhetoric: 91 -3
Hand-eye Coordination: 120 9
Agility: 114 6
Reaction Speed: 85 -6
Enunciation: 119 9
Language: 124 12
Math: 97 0
Analytical: 70 -17
Spatial: 94 -3
Drive: 111 6
Intuition: 126 12
Common Sense: 124 12
Reflection: 102 0

Ability Score Skill Modifier
__________________________________________________ ______________________________
PHYSIQUE: 93 -3

CHARISMA: 103 3

DEXTERITY: 109 6

INTELLIGENCE: 96 -3

WISDOM: 115 9

Age: 0
Height: 9 inches
Weight: 2 pounds
BMI: 17.41
BMI Status: Healthy weight
Breadth: 4 inches
Foot Size: 1 inches
Head Size: 11.65 inches
Handedness: Right-handed
Hair Length: 2 inches
Hair Color: Brunette
Hair Type: Thick, straight
Eye Color: Black
Skin Color: Black
Vision: Perfect natural vision
Most Attractive Feature: Chest
Most Repulsive Feature: Buttocks

Facial Feature: Big nostrils
Perceived as a waster of money, generous

Vaginal Depth: 0.80 inches
Vaginal Circumference: 7 inches
Hymen Resistance: 61
Cup Size: B
Tongue: 0.50 inches
Areola Diameter: 0.50 inches
Areola Hue: Light
Nipple Length: 0.25 inches
Anal Circumference: 5 inches
Sexuality: Heterosexual
Debauchery Score: 86

Your Ethicality result: 98

You are: Ethical.

Your Morality result: 49

You are: Neutral.

Your Peity Points: 7

Your character believes in their god, but does not care.

You have asthma

Temperament Value
__________________________________________
Sanguine 19
Choleric 35
Melancholic 100
Phlegmatic 28

Your temperament is: Melancholic Choleric

Birthday: 1/4/5100
Birth Status: Legitimate
Social Class: Serf
Starting Funds: 1 s.p.
Education: Literate
Birthplace: Capital City
Brother(s): 1
Sister(s): 1
Birth Rank: 1st
Marital Status: Single

Your randomly generated birthname is: Aedelhild

Edit: 3 notes
1. I now feel vaguely unclean.
2. The official character creator was made with a trial version of a compiler, and so notes the executable is "Not for redistribution"
3. After you finish creating a character, it saves it as a .txt and dumps you out of the program. Appears even the programmers realized you'd never want to create more than one character.

[Anonymouswizard]

On GURPS: GURPS also has the advantage of being actually realistic and a good game (or so I have heard). The systems I mentioned earlier aren't even close to either of those things.

True, GURPS has massive advantages in this department. There are people who try to make it more realistic though.

I tend to find GURPS to be a good game where the designers stopped making it realistic at the point where playing it began to be difficulty.

Maybe I'll roll up a character myself, I'll have to get the pdf, but it might be fun to go through and make an honest rolls victimbrave adventurer. Let us see if we can roll ourselves a Clerk.

[Particle_Man]

Up next is the racial hatred table. Thank goodness the game has a convenient table to let me know how racist my character is.

Next up is gender. Unlike D&D, gneder in this game does have an effect on your character's stats. Most of them are small pluses and minuses to certain abilities, each gender having the opposite strengths and weaknesses as the other. One could almost say that they balance each other out. This would be very, very wrong. While most of the stat boosts are differences between 2-5%, the Physique: Strength stat give as whopping +30% to males and a -30% to females. There is nothing, absolutely nothing, that female characters are given that even comes close to bridging this canyon. Oh, but they're not so unequal as it would seem, the game promises. After all, females have nurturing or some crap. We're not sexist! .

These make me feel bad about AD&D 1st ed., which did have a racial relations table (how elves in general feel about dwarves, etc.) and did have maximum strength limits that were lower for female characters than for male characters for every playable race.

It also irks me that "far away times and lands" would be a nice phrase to describe a game and it has now been ruined by FATAL forever.

[Lord Torath]

These make me feel bad about AD&D 1st ed., which did have a racial relations table (how elves in general feel about dwarves, etc.) and did have maximum strength limits that were lower for female characters than for male characters for every playable race.

On the plus side, they scrapped that idea in 2nd Edition, and never looked back. F.A.T.A.L.'s second edition... not so much.

[Anonymouswizard]

These make me feel bad about AD&D 1st ed., which did have a racial relations table (how elves in general feel about dwarves, etc.) and did have maximum strength limits that were lower for female characters than for male characters for every playable race.

On the plus side, they scrapped that idea in 2nd Edition, and never looked back. F.A.T.A.L.'s second edition... not so much.

Also, while I dislike gender-based strength limits in my games of make believe, AD&D was significantly better about it than FATAL, which was closer to '-4 Strength' (ironically the justification is essentially 'they can get pregnant and make better mothers'). At the very least a limit doesn't come up unless you're at the limit, a penalty always applies.

[An Enemy Spy]

These make me feel bad about AD&D 1st ed., which did have a racial relations table (how elves in general feel about dwarves, etc.) and did have maximum strength limits that were lower for female characters than for male characters for every playable race.

It also irks me that "far away times and lands" would be a nice phrase to describe a game and it has now been ruined by FATAL forever.

Luckily for you you, FATAL stands for "From Another Time, Another Land" so your title is safe.

[Particle_Man]

Luckily for you you, FATAL stands for "From Another Time, Another Land" so your title is safe.

Yeah, but that would have been a good title too, if only it were not attached to a game like this.

edit: Actually, pretty much any phrase with the acronym FATAL is rpg poison.

[Particle_Man]

On the plus side, they scrapped that idea in 2nd Edition, and never looked back. F.A.T.A.L.'s second edition... not so much.

True. There was a vestige of sexism in D&D's 3rd edition (jump distances were related to height, which was for most races a way of favouring male characters' jumping distances) but even that disappeared in later editions.

[Anonymouswizard]

Yeah, but that would have been a good title too, if only it were not attached to a game like this.

edit: Actually, pretty much any phrase with the acronym FATAL is rpg poison.

I wonder if we can come up with an accurate expansion of the name. Final Adventure Towards Another Lobotomy?

[Cluedrew]

F#%$ A%& T^*%& A$^% L## sounds appropriate.

[Particle_Man]

Forsake All Tolerance And Laudability?

[2D8HP]

For A******s That Avoid Love