OOTS #1062 - The Discussion Thread

[Gray Mage]

Way I see it, Bandana was thrust in a position of power without any experience or respect for her underlings at all. She's been dismissive of any complaints from the crew in pursuit of her "big break" (she even blamed Andi for the expenses and time when the Gnomes were fixing the ship) and lead crewmen to their deaths now. I think both her and Andi are due to a scolding from Julio.

[Chei]

Struck. Down. Looking forward to the backlash on this. I was thinking that if Bandana legitimately is dead, Haley is going to have a serious test on that whole "Good" thing she's been trying out lately. Vengeance is a siren...

[aurilee]

Things from fictional TV shows generally have low correlation with reality. Scotty got left in charge because the two lead actors were down on the planet where most of the stuff happened. In reality the captain stays with the ship and does not join the seal team on their missions.

OOTS generally also has a low correlation with reality. ^_^

The idea is that a person who is a chief engineer could be a captain, and people who create stories have long thought this to be the case, it's just Andi that specifically has issues that mean she shouldn't really be captain.

Also, IRL the chief engineer is still in the chain of command as a high ranking officer. Obviously it doesn't usually get to that point (because, as you said, the captain and FO don't usually leave the ship), but it is still possible in dire circumstances.
(note that I've never been in the Navy, and although I've been around a fair amount of Naval people in my life and have absorbed some knowledge that way, I'm not 100% certain what the chain of command is on a ship, so someone is more than welcome to correct me.)

[TheNecrocomicon]

Yes, this. "So whoever knocks the current captain unconscious becomes Captain? Okay then..."

I wonder ... how has Roy previously dealt with people backstabbing their leaders in front of him?

Way I see it, Bandana was thrust in a position of power without any experience or respect for her underlings at all. She's been dismissive of any complaints from the crew in pursuit of her "big break" (she even blamed Andi for the expenses and time when the Gnomes were fixing the ship) and lead crewmen to their deaths now. I think both her and Andi are due to a scolding from Julio.

Sure, the mutineers have a few feeble points, but nothing justifying attempted murder in mid-battle. She was placed in charge by the legitimate captain, and despite inexperience was actually doing just fine in the minds of most of the crew right up until the battle by getting them paid. Hence the crew's shock at the mutiny actually happening.

[hroþila]

I wonder ... how has Roy previously dealt with people backstabbing their leaders in front of him?

That was obviously not a backstab. It was a chestslice.

[Forikroder]

Way I see it, Bandana was thrust in a position of power without any experience or respect for her underlings at all. She's been dismissive of any complaints from the crew in pursuit of her "big break" (she even blamed Andi for the expenses and time when the Gnomes were fixing the ship) and lead crewmen to their deaths now. I think both her and Andi are due to a scolding from Julio.

she in no way blamed Andi, in fact specifically pointed out that she wasnt to blame

the complaints of the crew are 1) they werent getting paid enough (which she listened to and fixed) and 2) that she is not Julio Scoundrel (which she cant fix)

aside from Andi noone has a problem with her decision making

[Peelee]

Way I see it, Bandana was thrust in a position of power without any experience or respect for her underlings at all. She's been dismissive of any complaints from the crew in pursuit of her "big break" (she even blamed Andi for the expenses and time when the Gnomes were fixing the ship) and lead crewmen to their deaths now. I think both her and Andi are due to a scolding from Julio.

If Bandanna was truly so inept that she shouldn't have been put in the captains chair, I don't think Julio could really put the blame on her for it, since he's he one who thought she should be captain.

[Killer Angel]

I'm more amazed by how the crew accept the mutiny's act.

[Sans.]

Oh gods, Andi is going to be another Miko...

[GreatWyrmGold]

We all knew it was coming, but still...

What am I, chopped liver?

I really like how Bandana's eyes are obscured by the fence there. A little bit of suspense for us, since she could be dead or unconscious...

Ooh, good eyes. (I mean yours, not Bandana's.)

Edit: what exactly does "turn off the pass" mean?

A "pass" is a path through the mountains which doesn't go over them. Andi's asking the pilot to turn the ship off of that pass and between other mountains, where there should be fewer frost giants.

Can't wait to see Roy's reaction when the ship starts turning.
Also - crap, we've split the party again haven't we?

"Why am I getting a feeling of deja vu?"

Well, actually, that would be a giant. Now, ogres - oh, they're much worse.

All ogres are giants, though not all giants are ogres.

Besides, Elan does have magic, she could be helping him.

I doubt it. I mean, he could try, but...

I'm thinking the crew member at the helm referring to Andi as "captain" may have as much to do with not wanting a wrench to the head as to Bandanna's current condition.

My thoughts exactly.

Obviously, keelhauling.
On a flying shiop, that's a combination of swings and bungy-jumping, probably...

That actually sounds kinda fun.

I, personally, see no hint of sexual tension between Andi and Bandanna.

You're clearly not a shipper. Of course, they can find sexual tension in anything from active hatred to ignorance of the other's existence.

Roy strikes me as likely to take her back-bludgeoning badly, especially since he's probably still raw from Lurkon's betrayal, what, a day or two earlier? If efforts to talk sense fail, I could easily see a "screw it", followed by a greatsword being applied to Andi to get the crew back under control.

The flat, maybe. Roy's still on the merciful side of LG at his worst.

That being said, Andi also isn't the greatest Chief Engineer since she actively complains about having to fix the ship (as someone linked to above), and seems to be more concerned with command than the state of the ship. To continue the ST example, I can't think of a single Chief Engineer who would see their ship coming apart and then *not* fix it, or see that it needs repairs and *not* obsessively try to get it up and running. The ship should be the Chief Engineer's baby, and should come first.

At least she has her priorities in order. It's not the right order, but it's better than nothing.

As to what Roy does about it, it's obvious:
"I challenge you for leadership of the Mechane!"

Yes, this. "So whoever knocks the current captain unconscious becomes Captain? Okay then..."

The crew doesn't trust him. If he knocked out Andi, he'll just split the ship between those who agree with his logic more than they distrust him and those who like Bandana more than they trust him. That would make the situation worse.

Andi as the older sister? Yeah, quite possible, but as someone pointed out, Bandana isn't Julio's child. Well, I guess it's possible that she is, but that the guy she thought was her father didn't know either.

It's hypothetically possible that they both grew up on the ship together and developed a sibling-like relationship. Or at least the parts which involve being able to rub each other the wrong way within the span of a single sentence.

I'm more amazed by how the crew accept the mutiny's act.

At this point, it's either listen to Andi or guess what Bandana would have said.

Oh gods, Andi is going to be another Miko...

Judging by Andi's expression in the last three panels, she's a lot better at introspection and regret.

[Peelee]

I'm more amazed by how the crew accept the mutiny's act.

Ship needs a captain. Chain of command likely exists. Middle of battle isn't really the time to discuss it in committee.

I doubt it. I mean, he could try, but...

Trying to help is infinitely more helpful than not helping at all

[skaddix]

Not a shocker. The Crew hasn't been happy with the mission for awhile and were mollified mostly by finally getting paid. But even that probably isn't enough considering they saw 4 of their buddies cut down, the giants are swarming and Julio who signed them up for this mission is on vacation. This breaking point was due to occur. As for Andi in charge well she took out the captain, seems to be a senior crew member and has been leading the dissident faction. She is the logical choice.

[Forikroder]

Ship needs a captain. Chain of command likely exists. Middle of battle isn't really the time to discuss it in committee.

middle of battle isnt time to knock out captain either

[Peelee]

middle of battle isnt time to knock out captain either

You're not wrong, but discussing it on the ship would only aggravate matters.

[M Placeholder]

I'm more amazed by how the crew accept the mutiny's act.

Guess they are in shock, and just want to get the hell out of there. They might accept it now, but when the danger passes and Bandana regains conciousness, they will be out for answers from Andi - if she's lucky, then they will be out for her blood.

[Snails]

As an engineer myself (not a naval one though), I take issue with that generalization. Engineers can make fine leaders, if they have developed the right skills and talent for that on top of technical knowledge. Andi specifically would make a lousy captain due to personal traits: arrogance, impulsiveness, and a sense of entitlement (for starters).

Oh, yes, I do agree. Andi specifically has not honed the full skillset necessary for a competent leader of a multifaceted team. I hold her primary area of expertise as a positive, but I simply see no evidence of skills beyond that. Frankly she could learn a few tips about Diplomacy (and Bluff) from Belkar(!!!) She has not outgrown "I am smarter than you, so you should show you are listening by doing what I say."

As I am sure you know, engineers that think being really smart makes them automatically wiser at complex topics waaaay outside their expertise are not exactly rare. That is a failing not confined to engineering, of course.

[Mordokai]

Oh Andi... you stupid bitch.

[Snails]

The idea is that a person who is a chief engineer could be a captain, and people who create stories have long thought this to be the case, it's just Andi that specifically has issues that mean she shouldn't really be captain.

Battlestar Galatica had an episode about that. After some ugly attrition, the most senior officer available with a significant history on the Pegasus was the chief engineer. He was very obviously great officer in a number of ways, but simply not up to being thrust into command in a ridiculously stressful scenario without some handholding and grooming first.

While it unfortunately perpetrated the stereotype against smartypants engineers, that kind of problem was not rare in the real world.

I was reading about various leadership problems in the Civil War on the Confederate side in the Chickamunga campaign. An officer who gets rapidly promoted to general because of a lack of good other candidates is almost destined to fail. The majority of such people are simply remembered as bad generals. A careful historian will look back carefully at their performance as at the regiment level, and can make a more nuanced interpretation of what went wrong, especially if their career as a general lasts long enough to see a trajectory of improvement.

None of this really applies to Andi, who is both subordinate and shows no indications of competence outside of her role as engineer. No on ever thought she had such qualities, not Julio, no one except her.

[HandofShadows]

Oh, Sheep Dip! That idiot is going to get everyone killed.

[TheNecrocomicon]

Oh, yes, I do agree. Andi specifically has not honed the full skillset necessary for a competent leader of a multifaceted team. I hold her primary area of expertise as a positive, but I simply see no evidence of skills beyond that. Frankly she could learn a few tips about Diplomacy (and Bluff) from Belkar(!!!) She has not outgrown "I am smarter than you, so you should show you are listening by doing what I say."

As I am sure you know, engineers that think being really smart makes them automatically wiser at complex topics waaaay outside their expertise are not exactly rare. That is a failing not confined to engineering, of course.

Yeah, when someone makes Belkar look like a paragon of diplomacy, they are doing something profoundly wrong.

To be fair, I've run into a lot of engineers who either read up on a diverse variety of subjects or have a lot of life experiences that do legitimately give them skills and proficiency that range far beyond their own specific field of study/work. The ones who are actually wiser, however, are the ones who know very well when their accumulated knowledge either is or is not useful to the situation at hand.

[Quibblicious]

Yeah, Chief Engineers have to have leadership abilities because they lead a team. All heads of department are theoretically capable of taking command (at least for a limited time) because they're already in charge of a decently-sized group of people. They would have also theoretically been through enough "tough" situations to be able to make some good judgement calls (or defer to the expertise of the right crewmates).

That being said, Andi also isn't the greatest Chief Engineer since she actively complains about having to fix the ship (as someone linked to above), and seems to be more concerned with command than the state of the ship. To continue the ST example, I can't think of a single Chief Engineer who would see their ship coming apart and then *not* fix it, or see that it needs repairs and *not* obsessively try to get it up and running. The ship should be the Chief Engineer's baby, and should come first.

Andi strikes me as the engineer who hates to have to fix it again. She like to keep it humming and can optimize the heck out of it, and can fix things swiftly and efficiently when she puts her mind to it. She also, however, is so emotionally invested in the ship itself that she hates to see it put in any danger.

This is similar to the plankholder captains in the Gallipoli campaign in WWI, who were supposed to drive their fairly new but still outdated battle ships into the Dardanelles and close to the shore based gun emplacements and destroy the emplacements to allow the troop ships to gain passage. Well, many of those captains had the romantic notion that their ships were the fair ladies of the seas and shouldn't be risked in such a maneuver, putting the material safety of the ship over accomplishing their mission.

The end result was a failure of the Gallipoli campaign and much wasted life because the captains couldn't bear to put their ships in the line of fire in the manner they should have.

Its not completely the fault of those captains, but their initial failures complicated the subsequent decisions and led indirectly to a failed campaign and a loss of a lot of lives.

For those who don't know, the order of priority for a military commander is always mission, men, equipment, at least for the United States armed services. If mission took a back seat to either men or equipment, you'd never be able to send men into battle.

Q
Making another history check...

[Quibblicious]

I have no sympathy for Andi. She would never show this level of disrespect towards Julio and her rashness is proof that she's not meant to lead. I don't think the Giant will be cold enough to kill her for mutiny. I see an out of the frying pan and into the fire scenario followed by a heartfelt remorse and apology.

Personally I'd have her executed by Roy who is lawful and knows how important the chain of command is but I'd settle for one of Belkar's homicidal frolics.

It may be a case where she quits the crew of her own accord. She knows she's crossed a Rubicon of her own making. How can any of the crew really trust her again? How could Julio?

She's squandered years of good work in one rash act.

Q

[Noodz]

Another example of why i keep coming back to the Giant even as i drop other webcomics. There's been plenty of foreshadowing on a mutiny, but the timing is perfect.

Now, one thing people are forgetting is that the Mechane crew are not adventurers. They might be outlaws, but they're still as scared of dying as would any peasant. Add to that the fact that their 200 gp reward did not foresee any risk to life and limb, and afaik that they are in the dark on WHY they are doing this ferry mission. So while Andi is the most outspoken opponent to Bandana's decisions, she is clearly not the only one thinking Bandana is making one too many blunders to keep calling the shots.

And that leads me to Bandana. While her decisions were mostly right when seen on the big picture, she did not pay enough attention to her crew's morale, and that's a fatal flaw for a pirate captain. Since she obviously lacks Julio's charisma, she should have dedicated more time building rapport with her own crew (especially Andi, anyone could see her discontent from miles away), or as a last resort physically isolating Andi to avoid the literal backstab she just got.

(If you disagree about Bandana's leadership failure, think back on just how much effort Roy puts into building trust on the order, and he's leading 5 people. By the same token, the leader of a crew of dozens should barely have free time).

[Forikroder]

Another example of why i keep coming back to the Giant even as i drop other webcomics. There's been plenty of foreshadowing on a mutiny, but the timing is perfect.

Now, one thing people are forgetting is that the Mechane crew are not adventurers. They might be outlaws, but they're still as scared of dying as would any peasant. Add to that the fact that their 200 gp reward did not foresee any risk to life and limb, and afaik that they are in the dark on WHY they are doing this ferry mission. So while Andi is the most outspoken opponent to Bandana's decisions, she is clearly not the only one thinking Bandana is making one too many blunders to keep calling the shots.

And that leads me to Bandana. While her decisions were mostly right when seen on the big picture, she did not pay enough attention to her crew's morale, and that's a fatal flaw for a pirate captain. Since she obviously lacks Julio's charisma, she should have dedicated more time building rapport with her own crew (especially Andi, anyone could see her discontent from miles away), or as a last resort physically isolating Andi to avoid the literal backstab she just got.

(If you disagree about Bandana's leadership failure, think back on just how much effort Roy puts into building trust on the order, and he's leading 5 people. By the same token, the leader of a crew of dozens should barely have free time).

i dont get why people keep saying this, there has been no signs that Bandana is hated by the crew in general and they are probably more then used to ending up in dangerous situations with little explanation

[pentagram]

I'm with Team Andi.
Well, actually, that would be a giant. Now, ogres - oh, they're much worse.

I understood that reference...

[kenlund]

When playing D&D, you should never take the NPCs for granted or assume they will do what you want. It's never as simple as tossing them money to assure their loyalty.

Very excited to see the result of Andi's order. I hope it doesn't result in the Mechane's destruction. Of course, even if it doesn't. she likely opened them up to a new world of hurt...and she can't even cast plane shift.

[hroþila]

i dont get why people keep saying this, there has been no signs that Bandana is hated by the crew in general and they are probably more then used to ending up in dangerous situations with little explanation

Noodz didn't say anything about Bandana being hated, but it's obvious that her crew is not entirely on board with her decisions. Even if some monetary compensation was enough to assuage the concerns of most of them at the time.

[Grey Watcher]

Oh gods, we can't see Bandana's eyes! Are they X's? ARE THEY X'S!?

[Forikroder]

Noodz didn't say anything about Bandana being hated, but it's obvious that her crew is not entirely on board with her decisions. Even if some monetary compensation was enough to assuage the concerns of most of them at the time.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1028.html

aside from Andi they all seem pretty happy here, 200g might be alot more then there usual cut after a job

[Shining Wrath]

Andi strikes me as the engineer who hates to have to fix it again. She like to keep it humming and can optimize the heck out of it, and can fix things swiftly and efficiently when she puts her mind to it. She also, however, is so emotionally invested in the ship itself that she hates to see it put in any danger.

This is similar to the plankholder captains in the Gallipoli campaign in WWI, who were supposed to drive their fairly new but still outdated battle ships into the Dardanelles and close to the shore based gun emplacements and destroy the emplacements to allow the troop ships to gain passage. Well, many of those captains had the romantic notion that their ships were the fair ladies of the seas and shouldn't be risked in such a maneuver, putting the material safety of the ship over accomplishing their mission.

The end result was a failure of the Gallipoli campaign and much wasted life because the captains couldn't bear to put their ships in the line of fire in the manner they should have.

Its not completely the fault of those captains, but their initial failures complicated the subsequent decisions and led indirectly to a failed campaign and a loss of a lot of lives.

For those who don't know, the order of priority for a military commander is always mission, men, equipment, at least for the United States armed services. If mission took a back seat to either men or equipment, you'd never be able to send men into battle.

Q
Making another history check...

A battleship also hit a mine, which gave the officers an excuse for playing it safe. The Ottoman Sultan was busy evacuating his palace, if they'd pressed the attack it could have opened a 3rd front.

For those who don't know, a "plankholder" is a member of the first crew assigned to a ship when it enters service. If you've served your entire career on a vessel you will tend to be fond of her.