OOTS #1062 - The Discussion Thread

[Keltest]

Andi thinks everyone is going to die right here, right now, if they kept following Bandana's plan. Can't save the world, if everyone here is dead, no?

And, besides, it WAS a moment of frustration there. Well, not so much a moment but a volcanic eruption.

But it mostly stems from the PoV that Bandana is leading everyone to Certain Death.

Is she right to think that? Well from a character point of view it only matters if she has cause to think that.

And I think it's been well established from her PoV that it has. Might be stupid, but it is reasonable. From a narrative standpoint, that is.

Her alternative plans have amounted to "hope the frost giants will be nice and leave us alone." For somebody in a position that requires intelligence, cool headedness and problem solving skills, she has shown a remarkable lack of all of them. On top of that, her motivation so far has been explained pretty much as "we need someone to drive conflict" so I cant even really look at it from the position of her casting aside her good judgment to deal with legitimate personal problems. That might change eventually, but for the most part, I'm asking myself why she could possibly be thinking anything she has done is a good idea and coming up blank.

[Quibblicious]

Andi thinks everyone is going to die right here, right now, if they kept following Bandana's plan. Can't save the world, if everyone here is dead, no?

And, besides, it WAS a moment of frustration there. Well, not so much a moment but a volcanic eruption.

But it mostly stems from the PoV that Bandana is leading everyone to Certain Death.

Is she right to think that? Well from a character point of view it only matters if she has cause to think that.

And I think it's been well established from her PoV that it has. Might be stupid, but it is reasonable. From a narrative standpoint, that is.

FWIW, Bandanna did kind of bait Andi a little. Poor leadership move but somewhat understandable under the stress of combat. It still doesn't excuse Andi's blindside attack, but it could have been handled a little better.

Another strong guideline of leadership is to praise in public and punish in private. Bandanna's hard snark was more of punishing in public. She lost her temper at a subordinate and said some things intended to embarrass her, and did it in front of the other crew members.

Q

[Porthos]

theres no way to defuse that, Andi does not respect Bandana and refuses to

Are you saying Bandana's need for self-validation didn't exacerbate the situation? At all?

Remember, I'm saying Andi is at fault here AND saying Bandana didn't deserve a whack to the head.

I am ALSO saying that Bandana's actions weren't the best in the run up to this situation.

[JumboWheat01]

So what would we classify a wrench as? Club (1d6) or Mace (1d8)? Either way, taking that to the back of the head cannot be good in the HP department.

[Quibblicious]

At the same time, having an inexperienced captain who has personality conflicts with a member of the crew suddenly run into MAJOR PROBLEMS on their maiden voyage is a time honored tradtion in storytelling.

In fact, if that specific situation in storytelling ain't a trope, it should be.

Well, yeah, there's that, too

Q

[Shining Wrath]

That is a somewhat more nuanced view, but it boils down to the same thing -- they put their ships ahead of the mission, which it seems that Andi is doing now.

The Paladins would be pitching fits...

Q

To quote Winston Churchill, who may in fact be entitled to an opinion, "No one in Europe can lose a major war faster than the commander of the British Home Fleet". Emphasis mine. Captains in the Mediterranean were not Admirals of the Home Fleet.

And yes, Paladins are not big on putting personal safety ahead of saving the world. That's why they are eternally dissatisfied with rogues, and vice versa.

[Quibblicious]

Case in point, Captain Bligh and Fletcher Christian. (Oh, wait, that wasn't just a movie, it was actual history). Unlike Bandana, who is mostly a decent person, Captain Bligh was an asshat. He was also mutineed against when governor of New South Wales.

At least he was consistent...

Q

[Forikroder]

Are you saying Bandana's need for self-validation didn't exacerbate the situation? At all?

Remember, I'm saying Andi is at fault here AND saying Bandana didn't deserve a whack to the head.

I am ALSO saying that Bandana's actions weren't the best in the run up to this situation.

Andi has been pushing Bandana's buttons since Julio left, its not wierd that she snapped in such an incredibly tense moment id say its at least 90% andis fault

[Peelee]

Are you saying Bandana's need for self-validation didn't exacerbate the situation? At all?

Remember, I'm saying Andi is at fault here AND saying Bandana didn't deserve a whack to the head.

I am ALSO saying that Bandana's actions weren't the best in the run up to this situation.

I'm not disagreeing with you, but I do have a question. Do you believe that Bandana could have done anything to make the situation with Andi better during this mission?

[Porthos]

On top of that, her motivation so far has been explained pretty much as "we need someone to drive conflict"

Her motivation is "this inexperienced captain is going to destroy my precious ship kill us all through her poor judgement".

In fact, her motivation (jealousy, bitterness, thinking Bandana doesn't 'have what it takes') has been shining through since almost since she walked on the scene.

The only real question is: Is there some sort of history between the two that explains a bit of the WHY she has these motivations.

[Porthos]

I'm not disagreeing with you, but I do have a question. Do you believe that Bandana could have done anything to make the situation with Andi better during this mission?

A LOOOOOOOOONG private sit down chat after this strip at the very least.

Might be too late by then, but a "Shut up and like it" probably wasn't the best of closing arguments.

Preferably after this point though, where we have the second point of Andi backtalking Bandana and she just snaps with a "CAPTAIN Bandana".

She should have realized what was happening between the two of them and addressed it right there, right then, before it got worse.

At the very least, hearing out Andi's grievances wouldn't make her feel disrespected and taken for granted. She might have still simmered and seethed, but at least she would think she is being listened to, if not agreed with.

IMO it's the flagrant ignoring of most/all of what Andi said is what led up to this. Still doesn't make it right or excusable. But it does make it believable.

[mouser9169]

Great strip! Long time coming, and swiftly arrived.

Will Bandana will tossed off the ship along with the Order? The Mechane clearly has served its purpose, and needs to be off from the story, but maybe Bandana will stick around.

Perhaps Bandana will become a romantic rival for O-Chul for the heart of Oona?!?

[Jasdoif]

Andi's fundamental position has been that Bandana simply does not deserve and has no right to be captain. That might not have led to mutiny under other circumstances, but I don't really see it being resolved by a long talk either.

While it could be resolved/mitigated by a long talk, the problem is that Andi's respect for Bandana appears too low to care what Bandana might feel or think; she's only going to listen if Bandana says something Andi already agrees with. For a talk to have a genuine chance of reconciling their differences, it needs the involvement of someone they both respect enough; and Julio's absence is what led to this in the first place.

[Avianmosquito]

Wow, I didn't think she would go that far as to actually attack her with a wrench! Not looking good for the home team.

And just like that, Andi deserves to be on the business end of some damage, preferably lethal -- whether it's Roy's greatsword or Julio's sabre, I really don't care anymore. This is a pirate ship? Then deal with it like pirates.

Fortunately for Bandana, the wrench is most likely an improvised weapon dealing nonlethal damage, but like posters upthread said, the added damage of hitting the rail plus the helmsman (Mateo?) changing who he's addressing as "Captain" isn't a good sign. I guess we all just have to wait a couple more weeks to find out.

At this point, quite frankly, if the crew are that enthusiastic for attempting murder and blundering into a dead end, they deserve to lose the ship and their lives.

At least Bandana was able to give Andi a piece of her mind before Andi whacked her with a wrench from behind...

Man oh man, I had a modicum of sympathy for Andi up until the point where she started to insult Bandana and commit mutiny via backstabbing (or backwhacking...).

Great job Andi... now you`ll waste all the effort you and your crew have done (and the heroic sacrifice of some of your crewmates) and pass again for that ice giant infested route. If you want to rebel you should did it before or after, but you are maximizing the damage with that course of action. Aggh, pride and ambition always ruins the party.

Also... you remember the end-of-the-world thing?... you´ll die if the heroes don´t arrive in time, wherever you go. Well i guess the order will save you even with this treason.

You people DO realize she just snapped and didn't actually mean to do that, right? Because it sure seems like you don't get that part.

[Clistenes]

I can see two scenarios:

1.-Bandana isn't dead. The ship turns and is taken down by giants, and crashed in the middle of the mountains. becoming so damaged it will need weeks or repairs and resources worth tens of thousands of gold pieces.

When Bandana wakes up, the crew blames her for the disaster and supports Andi, so Bandana joins the OotS, hoping she will be able to find a new ship as a an adventurer. Winter wolves, yetis, ice trolls and frost giants eat most of the crew of the Mechane, the rest having to leave the ship and walk through out of the moutains.

2.-Banana is dead. Andi and the crew lie to the OotS, telling them it was an accident, and asking them to pay for the damage, bring the resources and protect the crew during the repairs. Haley may be able to use Sense Motive to detect the lie, or she may not, but that's irrelevant; the OotS is in a time crunch, and have to save the world, so they may give them gold, but they go anyways (taking the corpse of Bandana with them)

Winter wolves, yetis, ice trolls and frost giants eat most of the crew of the Mechane, the rest having to leave the ship and walk through out of the moutains. And they don't get to keep any gold.

[Tvtyrant]

And just like that, Andi deserves to be on the business end of some damage, preferably lethal -- whether it's Roy's greatsword or Julio's sabre, I really don't care anymore. This is a pirate ship? Then deal with it like pirates.

Fortunately for Bandana, the wrench is most likely an improvised weapon dealing nonlethal damage, but like posters upthread said, the added damage of hitting the rail plus the helmsman (Mateo?) changing who he's addressing as "Captain" isn't a good sign. I guess we all just have to wait a couple more weeks to find out.

At this point, quite frankly, if the crew are that enthusiastic for attempting murder and blundering into a dead end, they deserve to lose the ship and their lives.

Really? You think killing people for choosing not to have their lives tossed away for reasons they have never had explained to them is appropriate? Bandana is lucky they didn't simply kill her and dump her over the side, it would be self defense at this point.

[Kish]

Are you saying Bandana's need for self-validation didn't exacerbate the situation? At all?

Unknown. Unknowable (short of Rich spelling it out, which means "probably until the next book comes out and we can read its commentary"). I think it's entirely possible that the call-me-captain-bandana thing ticked Andi off; I think it's also equally possible that faced with a meek, verbally extra-courteous, I'm-just-in-charge-while-Captain-Scoundrel's-away Bandana who still gave the same orders and didn't follow Andi's orders...Andi would have hit her even sooner.

I don't think Bandana put one of her best two rolls in Charisma, and maybe if she had she could have averted this, but very likely if she hadn't put them in Intelligence and Dexterity Julio would never have found her competent enough at her job to consider putting her in charge and her position in this scene would be switched with the helmsman.

[Keltest]

Her motivation is "this inexperienced captain is going to destroy my precious ship kill us all through her poor judgement".

In fact, her motivation (jealousy, bitterness, thinking Bandana doesn't 'have what it takes') has been shining through since almost since she walked on the scene.

The only real question is: Is there some sort of history between the two that explains a bit of the WHY she has these motivations.

I wouldn't necessarily have a problem with that except, as you noted, where that comes from is entirely unexplored. We don't even really know why she thinks she should have been made captain. She clearly isn't qualified for it, and nothing in-comic establishes that she is even really in the running. She is coming off, to me at least, as completely delusional, which I'm pretty sure is not what Rich is going for here.

[b_jonas]

Pity Belkar isn't here. He understands this Klingon promotion well, and killing unpopular people.

[Asteroid Bomb]

Ugh. I was one of many who saw this coming and don't see how it benefits the story in any way. I think this book is getting a bad case of this: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...yMountainLions I had my doubts about this High Priest of Hel plot so late in the game but stuck with it, but now a mutiny on the Mechane too? I really hope this gets resolved one way or another within the next few strips...

[Keltest]

Really? You think killing people for choosing not to have their lives tossed away for reasons they have never had explained to them is appropriate? Bandana is lucky they didn't simply kill her and dump her over the side, it would be self defense at this point.

The problem there is that Andi's response is, if anything, MORE likely to get them killed at this point. Her decision making is based on wishful thinking, not a well thought out analysis of the situation and a thorough understanding of the psychology of religious Frost Giants.

[Porthos]

Andi's fundamental position has been that Bandana simply does not deserve and has no right to be captain. That might not have led to mutiny under other circumstances, but I don't really see it being resolved by a long talk either.

Very possibly true! But Bandana not only didn't try very hard, she kept poking the bear.

Personally, I think it isn't just "Bandana doesn't deserve to be Captain (and I do)" it's also "Bandana isn't listening to me good advice".

To put it another way: Frustration and jealously/bitterness is a HELL of a combo.

[Jasdoif]

You people DO realize she just snapped and didn't actually mean to do that, right? Because it sure seems like you don't get that part.

You say that like frustration is a valid reason to excuse hitting people.

[Tvtyrant]

The problem there is that Andi's response is, if anything, MORE likely to get them killed at this point. Her decision making is based on wishful thinking, not a well thought out analysis of the situation and a thorough understanding of the psychology of religious Frost Giants.

No arguments there, the optimal time to have mutinied was when they first saw the frost giants. However there were adventurers on ship at the time.

My argument is about the moral claim that the crew should be executed for resisting the authority of someone they never agreed to leading them to their deaths, not the effecriveness of their resistance.

[Keltest]

No arguments there, the optimal time to have mutinied was when they first saw the frost giants. However there were adventurers on ship at the time.

My argument is about the moral claim that the crew should be executed for resisting the authority of someone they never agreed to leading them to their deaths, not the effecriveness of their resistance.

I don't think its a moral claim, I think its an intellectual one. "too stupid to live" and all that.

[Peelee]

Really? You think killing people for choosing not to have their lives tossed away for reasons they have never had explained to them is appropriate? Bandana is lucky they didn't simply kill her and dump her over the side, it would be self defense at this point.

If they didn't want to risk their lives for reasons they might not have explained to them, then maybe they shouldn't have joined a pirate ship. The cook doesn't get to question the captain, for instance, especially in the heat of battle.

[JumboWheat01]

You say that like frustration is a valid reason to excuse hitting people.

You mean it isn't?

Crap... I'll have to tell my Elder Scrolls players to stop killing the Annoying Fan.

[Keltest]

You mean it isn't?

Crap... I'll have to tell my Elder Scrolls players to stop killing the Annoying Fan.

The Annoying Fan is a perfectly acceptable target even without any additional excuses. You can tell because he keeps getting resurrected. he's clearly just a respawning monster.

[Forikroder]

I wouldn't necessarily have a problem with that except, as you noted, where that comes from is entirely unexplored. We don't even really know why she thinks she should have been made captain. She clearly isn't qualified for it, and nothing in-comic establishes that she is even really in the running. She is coming off, to me at least, as completely delusional, which I'm pretty sure is not what Rich is going for here.

i dont think Andi thinks she should be captain, to her Julio is still captain and Bandana is just a stand in

[Lord Raziere]

.....

I am disappointed in Andi.

*sips tea*

But not surprised.