OOTS #1062 - The Discussion Thread

[Jasdoif]

You mean it isn't?

Nope. Whether a particular cause of frustration warrants hitting people is another matter entirely, but frustration doesn't mitigate or absolve responsibility simply by being there.

[LasVegasLawyer]

On a slightly different note from the Andi vs. Bandana struggle for continued leadership, has anyone else noticed the somewhat deliberate positioning of those two gauges on the main control panel? They went from one red, one yellow to both red in the space of a few strips. Last time they were both red was when both main propellers were stalled, but the props are spinning fine here. I considered helium level, but that wouldn't make sense given strip 949. Also, just before the giants started attacking, the top was yellow/red, while the bottom was yellow/green.

Just art, or a portent of an impending crash?

[Ridureyu]

Before you say that this is an unrealistic way to get promoted, I want to point out that this is exactly how I got my last three jobs.

[Forikroder]

Before you say that this is an unrealistic way to get promoted, I want to point out that this is exactly how I got my last three jobs.

i feel bad for your coworkers having to deal with 3 frost giant assaults

[Peelee]

On a slightly different note from the Andi vs. Bandana struggle for continued leadership, has anyone else noticed the somewhat deliberate positioning of those two gauges on the main control panel? They went from one red, one yellow to both red in the space of a few strips. Last time they were both red was when both main propellers were stalled, but the props are spinning fine here. I considered helium level, but that wouldn't make sense given strip 949. Also, just before the giants started attacking, the top was yellow/red, while the bottom was yellow/green.

Just art, or a portent of an impending crash?

Holy crap, that's awesome. Gotta be deliberate.

[HalfTangible]

@Bandana and Andi: On this page alone Andi's called her a stubborn little brat, "Little Miss Junior Captain" and screamed that Bandana should "just do what I tell you to". She's done nothing to actually fix the ship during the attack, has been questioning Bandana's competence and undermining her authority throughout the entire book and has been looking for reasons to be insulted since the start of aforementioned book. Bandana's position as captain is temporary, sure, but she's still the captain.

Yes, ****'s gone horribly bad, but acting like Andi did nothing to spark this conflict is absurd. Okay?

EDIT: And now that I read it again, she HAS been listening and responding to Andi's input. She just hasn't been doing exactly what Andi's suggested. Because her plans have been ****e.

Ugh. I was one of many who saw this coming and don't see how it benefits the story in any way. I think this book is getting a bad case of this: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...yMountainLions I had my doubts about this High Priest of Hel plot so late in the game but stuck with it, but now a mutiny on the Mechane too? I really hope this gets resolved one way or another within the next few strips...

For one thing, the final battle's going to take place over the final gate, meaning that the villains need time to FIND the final gate. It's the same reason Xykon lost his phylactery, but in reverse this time. He couldn't just show up at the last gate like he did with Girard's, because that would be repetitive, boring and undermine the strength the gate's defenses are supposed to have when at full strength.

The gods are involved because there isn't much time left to get them involved, and they're pretty much the only source of accurate info we have on the world in the Rift. We know the Snarl is real, but we also know that the Order is unsure of its existence, and that world is definitely still an eyebrow raiser. This is also a logical point to bring them in, narratively speaking: this is the last point where they'll have a chance to take their time and think about their decision to destroy the world.

There's also a theme of how one's past and upbringing creates who you are being built in the background, much as how family and blood ties were in the last book as early as Sandsedge. We've learned of Crystal and Haley's formative years in Greysky city (and potentially foreshadowed how the HPoH is gonna go in the process, though imo that was the weakest part of the entire story so far) and Bandana's whole character is built around how she wanted to be captain from her earliest memories. Durkon's early life is also put at the forefront.

The HPoH became a character to both create a dramatically significant villain and to remove the Order's access to Resurrection. It's also given us a good luck at Durkon's motives and home life, as well as clued us in to how exactly the HPoH was formed, its own motives and how vampires work in the setting (at least by the chosen method). It's been reinforced that Roy had a **** dad and because of that his brother died. (Side note: my personal theory is that Eugene is so bitter about family because of what happened with Ben (Bill? F$#@, I don't remember). He's gonna get to go to the Mountain, but learn Ben's in the afterlife as well and unfortunately Eugene promised to never go visit his family. Screwed over by his own attitude again.)

Those're the thoughts off the top of my head. And yes, a lot of this has been brought up before (though often in less detail). The point of bringing it up again is so you're thinking of it later in the book when it becomes relevant.

[TheNecrocomicon]

You say that like frustration is a valid reason to excuse hitting people.

This. It comes across more as Andi's narcissistic reaction to a blow to her ego than some kind of "valid" response to a life-threatening situation.

The Mechane was actually starting to get away from the threat, was it not? The spellcasters are behind and either maimed or dead. The warriors were getting taken down by a combination of Roy and gravity, while Elan is fixing the balloon. But why yes, let's all panic and respond to the life-threatening situation by turning back into the army of hostile frost giants and letting them all potshot us again.

If they didn't want to risk their lives for reasons they might not have explained to them, then maybe they shouldn't have joined a pirate ship. The cook doesn't get to question the captain, for instance, especially in the heat of battle.

Also, this. The crew seems perfectly fine picking on "fat merchant blimps" with wanton piracy, but apparently threading through a hazardous mountain pass is out of the question. I guess they're a lot more cowardly than they've ever let on in the story before.

Hell, the crewmembers who are below decks might not even know or realize (yet) that a change in command has even taken place. I wonder what their reaction will be.

[Laurana]

Always hated Andi.

I hope she dies a horrible death, preferably soon.

[Cirin]

And just like that, Andi deserves to be on the business end of some damage, preferably lethal -- whether it's Roy's greatsword or Julio's sabre, I really don't care anymore. This is a pirate ship? Then deal with it like pirates.

Fortunately for Bandana, the wrench is most likely an improvised weapon dealing nonlethal damage, but like posters upthread said, the added damage of hitting the rail plus the helmsman (Mateo?) changing who he's addressing as "Captain" isn't a good sign. I guess we all just have to wait a couple more weeks to find out.

At this point, quite frankly, if the crew are that enthusiastic for attempting murder and blundering into a dead end, they deserve to lose the ship and their lives.

Yeah, my first thought was Roy's going to tell her she's basically doomed the world with what she's done, and it'll probably end with Roy's greatsword going through her.

Andi just went from supporting character to significant antagonist, and pretty much her life is forfeit now.

[Forikroder]

This. It comes across more as Andi's narcissistic reaction to a blow to her ego than some kind of "valid" response to a life-threatening situation.

The Mechane was actually starting to get away from the threat, was it not? The spellcasters are behind and either maimed or dead. The warriors were getting taken down by a combination of Roy and gravity, while Elan is fixing the balloon. But why yes, let's all panic and respond to the life-threatening situation by turning back into the army of hostile frost giants and letting them all potshot us again.



Also, this. The crew seems perfectly fine picking on "fat merchant blimps" with wanton piracy, but apparently threading through a hazardous mountain pass is out of the question. I guess they're a lot more cowardly than they've ever let on in the story before.

Hell, the crewmembers who are below decks might not even know or realize (yet) that a change in command has even taken place. I wonder what their reaction will be.

the crew is perfectly fine with following Bandanas orders, Andi is the only one with a real problem, the crew is only listening because Bandana is out for the count

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

Mutiny!

[HalfTangible]

This. It comes across more as Andi's narcissistic reaction to a blow to her ego than some kind of "valid" response to a life-threatening situation.

The Mechane was actually starting to get away from the threat, was it not? The spellcasters are behind and either maimed or dead. The warriors were getting taken down by a combination of Roy and gravity, while Elan is fixing the balloon. But why yes, let's all panic and respond to the life-threatening situation by turning back into the army of hostile frost giants and letting them all potshot us again.

To be fair, her plan is to turn off the pass, not to turn back. It could lead them into a dead end, but it's not quite walking back through the fire you just got through.

Also, this. The crew seems perfectly fine picking on "fat merchant blimps" with wanton piracy, but apparently threading through a hazardous mountain pass is out of the question. I guess they're a lot more cowardly than they've ever let on in the story before.

Most people ARE "cowardly" like this. (By which i mean they have no idea what to do in a combat scenario, even if they can tell what's going on). Thieves are not known for their courage either.

Always hated Andi.

I hope she dies a horrible death, preferably soon.

I like her as a character, for what it's worth. The problem with her right now is that she's making a ton of mistakes and they're likely to cost more lives. We know that they'll be fine because this is a fictional story, and the Order still has to take on the HPoH, but they don't know this.

[ti'esar]

If they didn't want to risk their lives for reasons they might not have explained to them, then maybe they shouldn't have joined a pirate ship. The cook doesn't get to question the captain, for instance, especially in the heat of battle.

I've said before and I'll say it again: these are pretty wimpy sky pirates. It's explicable in that they previously probably just had to stand around and look impressed while Julio did all the actual heroics, but if one giant attack is this problematic, they should just become legitimate traders.

[Peelee]

Most people ARE "cowardly" like this. (By which i mean they have no idea what to do in a combat scenario, even if they can tell what's going on). Thieves are not known for their courage either.

For as we all know, criminals are... A superstitious, cowardly lot! They plan and plot, but they always get caught! Their evil schemes all come to naught! A superstitious, cowardly lot!

Man, that show was great.

I've said before and I'll say it again: these are pretty wimpy sky pirates. It's explicable in that they previously probably just had to stand around and look impressed while Julio did all the actual heroics, but if one giant attack is this problematic, they should just become legitimate traders.

Wimpy sky pirates, who have no problem yelling at and attacking Frost Giants who board their ship, who have no problem continuing to carry the Order so long as they're paid, who have no problem flying through the pass.... except for the chief mechanic, who is mostly just railing against the acting captain.

They may not be able to handle martial combat with Frost Giants, but they're clearly willing to try.

[Kish]

I don't think the pirates are actually wimpy. (Even Andi--I think "this is too dangerous!" is the excuse, just like "we're not a ferry service!" was the excuse when she protested the Order's presence onboard, and "I should be Captain!" is the reason.)

I do, however, observe that people's defenses of their hypothetical desire to give up keep amounting to saying that they shouldn't be more used to danger than the average store clerk.

[hamishspence]

Case in point, Captain Bligh and Fletcher Christian. (Oh, wait, that wasn't just a movie, it was actual history). Unlike Bandana, who is mostly a decent person, Captain Bligh was an asshat. He was also mutineed against when governor of New South Wales.

Most of what I've read about Bligh, has suggested that his main flaw was not getting on well with his junior officers - as is suggested here:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/YMMV/TheBounty


his mutinies might have been to do with him not being strict enough (for the era) - rather than being too strict.

[137beth]

Well that can't be good.

[Forikroder]

people dont seem to get the Mechane is literally against an entire army of frost giants including there most powerful elite here, they are massively outnumbered in the middle of enemy territory

[8BitNinja]

Great comic, although I might be a little slow to the draw for that comment.

Also, I didn't know that the nameless redshirts had such fine beards.

[Tvtyrant]

If they didn't want to risk their lives for reasons they might not have explained to them, then maybe they shouldn't have joined a pirate ship. The cook doesn't get to question the captain, for instance, especially in the heat of battle.

They aren't on a pirate ship though, are they? They are on a warship now, under a captain they didn't sign up for, fighting for a cause they did not agree to. Nothing in there suggests Bandana has the moral authority to take their agency and risk their lives against their will.

[Forikroder]

They aren't on a pirate ship though, are they? They are on a warship now, under a captain they didn't sign up for, fighting for a cause they did not agree to. Nothing in there suggests Bandana has the moral authority to take their agency and risk their lives against their will.

Miko level logic leap there

[Porthos]

@Bandana and Andi: On this page alone Andi's called her a stubborn little brat, "Little Miss Junior Captain" and screamed that Bandana should "just do what I tell you to".

I believe I called their relationship "dysfunctional" for a reason.

(Note: Relationship here does not imply a romantic one, now or in the past)

[Renegade Paladin]

Well, if all you've got to do to be the captain is whack the previous captain on the back of the head, it seems to me that the Order's choice of actions should be fairly clear.

[TheNecrocomicon]

They aren't on a pirate ship though, are they? They are on a warship now, under a captain they didn't sign up for, fighting for a cause they did not agree to. Nothing in there suggests Bandana has the moral authority to take their agency and risk their lives against their will.

They are under the duly appointed first mate of the captain they signed up for, wherein the latter put the former in charge as per his authority as the owner of the ship. A pirate ship is a warship, just one that picks on targets of economic opportunity rather than other warships.

If they're just going to be in favour of the chain of command when it suits them, then Julio should be seeing about hiring a more loyal crew at the first opportunity, assuming the Mechane itself survives.

Don't get me wrong, Andi and the crew still have every right to perpetrate such a mutiny, but the longer it continues, the less concerned I will be when they eventually crash into a mountain, lose their ship, and get picked off one-by-one by the unfriendly neighbourhood frost giants.

[Jasdoif]

Nothing in there suggests Bandana has the moral authority to take their agency and risk their lives against their will.

I wonder if they'll refund Roy's money, since they seemed fine with the mission Bandana put them on after each crew member was paid 200gp.

[Morquard]

Ugh. I was one of many who saw this coming and don't see how it benefits the story in any way. I think this book is getting a bad case of this: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...yMountainLions I had my doubts about this High Priest of Hel plot so late in the game but stuck with it, but now a mutiny on the Mechane too? I really hope this gets resolved one way or another within the next few strips...

Just have some faith into the Giant that he knows what he's doing...

Seriously this kind of argument pops up every time something deviates from the "main plot"...

[Douglas]

Just have some faith into the Giant that he knows what he's doing...

Seriously this kind of argument pops up every time something deviates from the "main plot"...

I'm pretty sure this quote from The Giant still applies:

I'm sorry you don't care for it, but this isn't a "sidequest." This is the main plot.

[ChillerInstinct]

While I'm certainly not about to claim Andi's in the right here, we need to remember the circumstances before we pass judgement.

This was, up until the past day or two, supposed to be a simple one-stop transportation detail. This is now the second time in a couple of days that the Mechane has been in very real danger of being brought down (not including the Tarquin fight a couple weeks prior, but that was Julio's call, so I'm not counting it).

Perhaps most importantly, their crewmates have died, which (to my memory, anyway) has not happened on-screen before. Being badass lovable rogues is, surprisingly, a relatively low-risk job as far as fantasy tropes go. At worst, you have a close shave, lose the loot, MAYBE have to leave loved ones behind. Going from charming cartoon pirates to having your friends literally bisected is... a jarring shift, to say the least. Judging by how stunned Bandana, Andi, and the pilot were when it happened, I think it's reasonable to say this doesn't happen a whole lot. They went to bed last night in the 60's Batman show and woke up in The Dark Knight, basically.

And for what? What they consider to be a Once-An-Episode Generic Doomsday Plot? For 200 gp per person?

Under the circumstances, I don't think Andi's actions are unreasonable. Poorly thought through, no question. But I think, if most of us were in her most likely neutral, not particularly high-level, horrific odds-facing shoes, we'd probably be having second thoughts. Assuming we're thinking reasonably at all and not being in full flight-or-fight mode.

[Tvtyrant]

Miko level logic leap there

Thanks. I know I am in the minority for distinguishing between soft targets such as pirates usually go after abd suicide missions against frost giants, so I appreciate the insult.

Imagine you got a job at Wallmart, and your boss quiy and made one of your fellow employees the new boss. Then they informed you your job is now going to be to drive a car for a decent amount of money delivering pizza. You agree, due largely to your loyalty to the original boss. Then several of you get shot and you find out you are delivering cocaine, but your boss refuses to let you quit despite you having agreed to a totally different job under a different leader.

That is the scenario we are in now, and my vomment was directed at a person calling for the deaths of the crew for finally driving away from the cocaine drop zone rather than die.

[Forikroder]

Thanks. I know I am in the minority for distinguishing between soft targets such as pirates usually go after abd suicide missions against frost giants, so I appreciate the insult.

im sure the empire of blood is happy to be considered a "soft target" they are already used to Julio using them to launch an assault against a powerful empire to rescue a complete stranger purely to laugh in the face of a powerful dictator

i wonder how many people died during those raids?

That is the scenario we are in now, and my vomment was directed at a person calling for the deaths of the crew for finally driving away from the cocaine drop zone rather than die.

that is in no way a good comparison, Bandana is not doing anything out of the ordinary, in fact i seem to recall Julio doing the exact same thing for a certain blond stranger, assisting him into flying into Azure city despite them being wanted there and sustaining fire as a result

for no pay