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  1. - Top - End - #271
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    Default Re: Pokémon Thread XXVIII: Get. In. The. BAG.

    I ended up replaying it because I couldn't find the last Zygarde cell and starting over sounded more fun than trying to hunt it down.

    Team I used was Persian (with Fur Coat ability. Not worth using without that), Arcanine, Electabuzz, Toxapex, Lucario, and Decidueye and they cleaned up pretty good. Transferred the non-starters at level 1 from my old file... Riolu/Lucario aren't available before the elite 4, so my team is a bit of a NewGame+ thing, but you could substitute him out for Machoke or any of the others for something else of the appropriate type.

  2. - Top - End - #272
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    Default Re: Pokémon Thread XXVIII: Get. In. The. BAG.

    Quote Originally Posted by Velaryon View Post
    Even if it's been that way all along, doesn't mean it needs to continue. There's obviously no technological limitation keeping them from putting them all in the games, so it's clearly just about making it so you have to buy the older games if you want everything.
    From what I hear of the Zeta/Omnicron fan games, stretching the game out long enough that you have that many routes for that many pokemon ends up turning everything into a slog at one point or another. And, well, maybe I'm just lucky, but GTS has been plenty nice to me for getting anything that's not legendary or mythical or whatever you want to call it.

    Though, granted, DexNav and Friend Safaris were really good ways to add more pokemon to established areas, and it really wouldn't hurt to see those types of things come back to help spread even more availability around.
    "Okay, so I'm going to quick draw and dual wield these one-pound caltrops as improvised weapons..."
    ---
    "Oh, hey, look! Blue Eyes Black Lotus!" "Wait what, do you sacrifice a mana to the... Does it like, summon a... What would that card even do!?" "Oh, it's got a four-energy attack. Completely unviable in actual play, so don't worry about it."

  3. - Top - End - #273
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    Default Re: Pokémon Thread XXVIII: Get. In. The. BAG.

    The alternative would arguably be worse... The game isn't stretched out to Route 87, but there are so many species crammed into each route that you've only got a 5-10% chance of catching each individual one. Fishing up Feebas and tracking down Mimikyu was annoying enough. Imagine doing that for ALL of them.

    Speaking of catching them all though, I'm trying to complete the Alola Pokedex in Moon (for the Shiny Charm, mostly). I'm basically done at this point, I just need to evolve a handful more, then after that it's only the ones that evolve through trading and the Sun exclusive mons (Edit: Also Litten and Popplio). Would anyone be willing to lend a hand with that?

    Less likely but I'll ask anyways... If anyone has a non-English version of either game, I'd also be interested in swapping Dittos for Masuda method breeding.
    Last edited by TheSummoner; 2017-03-29 at 10:21 PM.

  4. - Top - End - #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hiro Protagonest View Post
    Just collect all the ones in the region. If you want to collect more, buy another game. That's how series work.
    That'd be fine, except for the part where not being able to import from other games means there are literally hundreds that you can't get that others can.


    Quote Originally Posted by OracleofWuffing View Post
    From what I hear of the Zeta/Omnicron fan games, stretching the game out long enough that you have that many routes for that many pokemon ends up turning everything into a slog at one point or another. And, well, maybe I'm just lucky, but GTS has been plenty nice to me for getting anything that's not legendary or mythical or whatever you want to call it.

    Though, granted, DexNav and Friend Safaris were really good ways to add more pokemon to established areas, and it really wouldn't hurt to see those types of things come back to help spread even more availability around.
    There are plenty of ways they could add in more Pokemon without adding a ton more routes.

    1. Replace some of the more common ones that can be found everywhere with others. Do we really need to be able to catch Yungoos, Wingull, and their evolutions in like 90% of zones in the game? Throw some Pidgeys in there on the second or third island.

    2. Poké Pelago. The feature where you can leave out some wild beans to attract wild Pokemon would be a lot more interesting if it didn't usually bring in things I've already caught by the time I'm first introduced to the place. How about making it so that you get a completely different group of Pokemon this way that you can't catch elsewhere in Alola?

    3. In-game trading. It was pretty lackluster this time around, mostly stuff that I had already caught by the time I found the person wanting to trade, or that could be caught nearby. Remember in Red and Blue when the only way to get a Farfetch'd was through trading with a trainer in game? I don't believe that was the case in these games.

    4. How about a shop in the Festival Plaza that sells a few Pokemon you can't find elsewhere in the game? Might make that section of the game more worthwhile.

    5. How about winning Pokemon as prizes at the Battle Royal?

    There, that's 5 places they could add more Pokemon to the game without having to make the game a giant slog to get through. Took me like 2 minutes of thought; I'm sure there are a dozen more ways they could cram another 200 Pokemon in there without breaking a sweat.

    By making it so more than half the Pokemon are completely unattainable unless you go back and buy like 3 or 4 more games, they're really making it unfriendly to newer or returning players.

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    Default Re: Pokémon Thread XXVIII: Get. In. The. BAG.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheSummoner View Post
    Less likely but I'll ask anyways... If anyone has a non-English version of either game, I'd also be interested in swapping Dittos for Masuda method breeding.
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  6. - Top - End - #276
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    Default Re: Pokémon Thread XXVIII: Get. In. The. BAG.

    Quote Originally Posted by Velaryon View Post
    There are plenty of ways they could add in more Pokemon without adding a ton more routes.
    Seems we agree on this point in general, but I have a question of consistency. I understand you consider GTS trades as lame, which is why you consider such pokemon unattainable. Then why suggest additional in-game trades? A trade is a trade, and if one just arbitrarily ignores an obtainment vector on a matter of opinion, the same principle would hold that we ignore other vectors, as well.

    And if I may digress on a matter, I honestly consider it very friendly that I don't need to meet up with another Pidgey and am somewhat jealous that new players don't get to see them everywhere. Can we please do that with Zubat? Please? And maybe Lucario?
    "Okay, so I'm going to quick draw and dual wield these one-pound caltrops as improvised weapons..."
    ---
    "Oh, hey, look! Blue Eyes Black Lotus!" "Wait what, do you sacrifice a mana to the... Does it like, summon a... What would that card even do!?" "Oh, it's got a four-energy attack. Completely unviable in actual play, so don't worry about it."

  7. - Top - End - #277
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    Default Re: Pokémon Thread XXVIII: Get. In. The. BAG.

    They did that with Lucario. Can't get him at all until you beat the main story and even then it's only a 10% spawn in one tiny area.

    Also, Lucario is a fair bit better than Pidgeot and Crobat...

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    Default Re: Pokémon Thread XXVIII: Get. In. The. BAG.

    Hey, crobat is awesome.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Extra Anchovies View Post
    A 20th-level fighter should be able to break rainbows in half with their bare hands and then dual-wield the parts of the rainbow.

    Dual-wield the rainbow. Taste the rainbow.

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    Default Re: Pokémon Thread XXVIII: Get. In. The. BAG.

    If you REALLY wanted to insist on having all 802 obtainable in one game (and honestly, I frankly find it enough to pick up the majority in a new game only worry about completing my living dex), it would make far more sense to seed the final evolution forms in late areas and make you breed for the the earlier forms...

    Because I was/am FRACKING SICK of encountering Geodude/Graveller/Zubat/Golbat (and to a very slightly lesser extent), Tentacool/Tentacruel every-freaking-where, let alone catching them. One of the better parts of Black/White was the majority of the game was at least a different set of Pokémon spammed in cave areas...

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    Default Re: Pokémon Thread XXVIII: Get. In. The. BAG.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aotrs Commander View Post
    One of the better parts of Black/White was the majority of the game was at least a different set of Pokémon spammed in cave areas...
    Oh yeah, Roggenrolla and Woobat are totally different. Not Geodude and Zubat at all!
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    I'm going to be honest, "the Welsh became a Great Power and conquered Germany" is almost exactly the opposite of the explanation I was expecting

  11. - Top - End - #281
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    Default Re: Pokémon Thread XXVIII: Get. In. The. BAG.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    Oh yeah, Roggenrolla and Woobat are totally different. Not Geodude and Zubat at all!
    Well, yes. Roggenrolla especially – it had Sturdy! And half as much weakness to two starter types!
    Quote Originally Posted by jamieth View Post
    ...though Talla does her best to sound objective and impartial, it doesn't cover stuff like "ask a 9-year-old to tank for the party."
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    Default Re: Pokémon Thread XXVIII: Get. In. The. BAG.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheSummoner View Post
    They did that with Lucario. Can't get him at all until you beat the main story and even then it's only a 10% spawn in one tiny area.
    I know I'm in the minority on this personal opinion, but that's about 100% too frequent for my tastes. I'll fully acknowledge it's a good pokemon, I'm just tired of it and all the aura flavor text that doesn't get used by anyone else in the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    Oh yeah, Roggenrolla and Woobat are totally different. Not Geodude and Zubat at all!
    for a single-player journey, I'll gladly take the Psychic/Flying foocubus that ignores the opponent's stat changes over the Poison/Flying wad of wings that can't flinch. Heck, even with Fairy types, I'll generally make sure I got something Psychic on my team before I get something Poison. Sadly for me- but for the benefit of everyone else- Unova just had to shove Golbat into the postgame.
    "Okay, so I'm going to quick draw and dual wield these one-pound caltrops as improvised weapons..."
    ---
    "Oh, hey, look! Blue Eyes Black Lotus!" "Wait what, do you sacrifice a mana to the... Does it like, summon a... What would that card even do!?" "Oh, it's got a four-energy attack. Completely unviable in actual play, so don't worry about it."

  13. - Top - End - #283
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    Quote Originally Posted by OracleofWuffing View Post
    I know I'm in the minority on this personal opinion, but that's about 100% too frequent for my tastes.
    There's an entire cave dedicated to Diglett. I hate Diglett.
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  14. - Top - End - #284
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hiro Protagonest View Post
    There's an entire cave dedicated to Diglett. I hate Diglett.
    When I was going through my generation one Nuzlocke, I found it refreshing to know with absolute certainty what I was going to get from that cave.

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    Default Re: Pokémon Thread XXVIII: Get. In. The. BAG.

    Since different patches of grass in a particular route can now have encounter rates, that could allow a lot more Pokémon to get squeezed into the game while still keeping gameplay reasonable. If you made each individual patch have a 40+% encounter rate for a different Pokémon, it gets a lot easier to add them all in one world without requiring a lot of 5% searches. Adding encounter rates (even if vague) to the Pokédex location function would increase the usefulness of these designed encounter rates.
    Last edited by TurboGhast; 2017-03-31 at 09:06 PM. Reason: Bad wording
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    Quote Originally Posted by KillingAScarab View Post
    When I was going through my generation one Nuzlocke, I found it refreshing to know with absolute certainty what I was going to get from that cave.
    Same. I got a Paras. :/

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    Default Re: Pokémon Thread XXVIII: Get. In. The. BAG.

    Quote Originally Posted by KillingAScarab View Post
    When I was going through my generation one Nuzlocke, I found it refreshing to know with absolute certainty what I was going to get from that cave.

    I got a Zubat in all three Gen 7 nuzlockes during my visits in Diglet Cave...

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    Default Re: Pokémon Thread XXVIII: Get. In. The. BAG.

    Somewhat on-topic, but I've started playing through Y. At 457, X and Y have a larger selection of mons than any other game... And it's annoying. It seem slike every route, no matter how small has atleast 8 different species, at least one of which only has a 5% chance of appearing. I'm only particularly worried about the ones I couldn't get in Moon, but even those are random enough that I find myself shuffling around in the grass a fair bit before moving on to the next area. I'm not even at the third gym yet and already my Pokedex is at 135... It's a little silly.

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    Default Re: Pokémon Thread XXVIII: Get. In. The. BAG.

    The important difference, is that now they've added different encounter chances for each individual 'clump' of grass, or whatnot, on a route. That way they can at least shrink the number of species appearing at any given time, while still having a large number of 'Mon on a route in total.
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    Default Re: Pokémon Thread XXVIII: Get. In. The. BAG.

    Shuffling around in three different clumps of grass isn't different in any noteworthy way than shuffling around in one for the purposes of "catching 'em all"

    Also, to an extent that was present in X & Y as well. Patches of flowers would have different encounter rates than patches of grass. Different colors of flowers would have different encounter rates even if encountered in the same route.

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    Default Re: Pokémon Thread XXVIII: Get. In. The. BAG.

    I agree. Sometimes (even in BW2, where normally I'd have not tried to but it had the you'd got the Dex-nav, so I felt I had to try), I felt the game would come to a screeching halt every time I went to a new area, becase I would have to stop to catch things.

    I got away with in it XY, since the Pokébank came out sufficiently early and - for once - I was ahead of the game and my Living Dex was able to be ported up. I spent the later bits of the game going "wow, I'm glad I'm not having to stop to catch everything I'm seeing, because I'd be her for ages."

    There's a limit to how long random encounters and running away can go on before it gets to be tedious - and the lower your chances of finding a particular Pokémon in an area are (e.g. the rare one, the new generation one), the more tedious it feels. Pokémon already has enough grinding (to the point - because I WILL insist on breeding, like a dolt - I spend more time grinding-while-passing-time than I do actually playing.) But at least that grinding is entirely self-inflicted.

    Cramming all 802 into one game would largely not be, because the spill-over (even if you didn't try to catch everyhting, as I don't on a subsequent game of a generation) would be quite large.
    Last edited by Aotrs Commander; 2017-04-02 at 06:30 AM.

  22. - Top - End - #292
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheSummoner View Post
    Shuffling around in three different clumps of grass isn't different in any noteworthy way than shuffling around in one for the purposes of "catching 'em all"
    It is: A larger number of smaller encounter tables means that you can get higher odds of the specific thing you want. If all the different clumps had their tables averaged together for any given route, the rare things would be even harder to get because they'd be competing with each other as well as with the commons.

    When you don't have anything yet, it's no different, but if you're looking for specific things and not other things, the reduced number of things that might show up is useful.
    Last edited by Qwertystop; 2017-04-02 at 01:22 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by jamieth View Post
    ...though Talla does her best to sound objective and impartial, it doesn't cover stuff like "ask a 9-year-old to tank for the party."
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    Default Re: Pokémon Thread XXVIII: Get. In. The. BAG.

    So I've more or less finished the main storyline in Y. More or less because I'm still grinding for a Yveltal with the right nature before going further, but I've gotten to the point where I'm done with Team Flare. Some thoughts...

    Spoilered for length more than anything. I'm assuming most people here have played it.
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    Team Flare are pretty weak as villains. They don't really do anything to make themselves stand out. Coming off of Moon in particular, I'm forced to compare them to Team Skull in all their quirky incompetent glory and there really isn't any contest. Likewise, the player's friends don't really stand out either. Four characters, very little personality between them.

    Lysandre himself reminds me a bit of Zephiel from Fire Emblem 6 if Zephiel was far less interesting. Both are genocidal madmen who hide their insanity under a seemingly normal exterior and do what they do because they have lost faith in humanity. But where Zephiel's issues stem from serious daddy issues (dude tried to have him killed. More than once), Lysandre's come off as "just because." Presented better, he really could've been an interesting villain, but the execution just fell flat. The only point that genuinely surprised me was when, while storming the Team Flare base, Serena asked "what about the pokemon?" and he started crying saying that once his plan was finished, they would no longer exist. That was the one moment he had that was done well... It shows him as a man who knows what he is doing will come with a terrible cost. A cost that he, himself deeply regrets, yet he continues because he still feels despite that, it is for the greater good. Again, he could've been an interesting villain. Further, he just seems overdesigned visually (it's mostly the wild hair). From his introduction, it was obvious he was going to be the villain. Contrast Lusamine who gives you a taste of her unhinged nature when you defeat the Nihilego in Aether Paradise, but before then seems more or less normal. Hell, contrast Giovanni's design. If you had encountered him outside of his villainous role earlier in the games, there would be nothing to indicate he was any more than some businessman, and it's not just because of the visual limitations of the early games.

    That said, Kalos does do a good job in the worldbuilding department. It feels like there's a great deal of history and they present it early on with the visit to Parfum Palace. Despite my annoyance at getting lost often in Lumiose City, it does seem a lot more alive than the cities in Alola, and that annoyance probably could've been solved with a better UI/Minimap. And while it served no mechanical purpose, NPCs asking for tips after performing services also helped the setting feel more alive.

    Finally, bringing things back to Team Flare, I did really enjoy the final sequence where the player and rival storm the Team Flare base, fighting several multi battles as they progress, rescuing the game's Legendary pokemon, and climaxing with the final battle with Lysandre. While simple, it just works well for the situation. No more puzzles, no more tricks, just brute force your way through and save the day. Probably would've worked better if Lysandre hadn't been so passive about stopping you, but whatever.


    And while typing that out, I got the Yveltal I wanted. So that was cool.

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    Default Re: Pokémon Thread XXVIII: Get. In. The. BAG.

    Quote Originally Posted by OracleofWuffing View Post
    for a single-player journey, I'll gladly take the Psychic/Flying foocubus that ignores the opponent's stat changes over the Poison/Flying wad of wings that can't flinch. Heck, even with Fairy types, I'll generally make sure I got something Psychic on my team before I get something Poison. Sadly for me- but for the benefit of everyone else- Unova just had to shove Golbat into the postgame.
    Quote Originally Posted by Qwertystop View Post
    Well, yes. Roggenrolla especially – it had Sturdy! And half as much weakness to two starter types!
    Those are all things they have, not things they are. What they are, are the annoying cave bat and annoying cave rock that you'll be bashing your head against for the entirety of the game. There are lots of cool things that could live in caves, and yet "bat-thing" and "rock-thing" was the best BW's design team could come up with.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artanis View Post
    I'm going to be honest, "the Welsh became a Great Power and conquered Germany" is almost exactly the opposite of the explanation I was expecting

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    Default Re: Pokémon Thread XXVIII: Get. In. The. BAG.

    I don't think the problem is that they're bats or rocks or poison type or sturdy or whatever. It's just that they're too ubiquitous and you keep running into the same thing from the early game forever. The devs should probably just limit each species (especially now there are so bloody many species) to a single area and not repeat them later so you don't have to run into the same thing again unless you intentionally go back to look for it, and also just have wild Pokémon levels scale with yours and have later evolutionary stages appear in place of earlier ones.
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    Quote Originally Posted by noparlpf View Post
    ...and also just have wild Pokémon levels scale with yours and have later evolutionary stages appear in place of earlier ones.
    One thing that I'd love to see, but that I admit is probably never going to happen is a much less linear game. Where the levels of things are determined by your levels when you first enter an area. Trainers would have their levels (and thus evolution states, etc.) determined when you first fought them. So, if you spent ages grinding, you could still have a challenge with your strong Pokémon - but, as soon as you hit a roadblock, they wouldn't level any more, so you could still grind to overcome that challenge. (More likely, though, it's be something to scale with badges, since it'd be really easy to use PC and/or trading, depending on how things worked, to easily game the system.)

    I know that it'd be unlikely, but I feel that something like this would not only make the game feel different every time you played it, but give a bit more freedom in general. *shrug* Just my rambling.
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    Default Re: Pokémon Thread XXVIII: Get. In. The. BAG.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    Those are all things they have, not things they are.
    Is that an assertion that Roggenrolas are not Rock types, and that Swoobats are not Flying and Psychic types?

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    What they are, are the annoying cave bat and annoying cave rock that you'll be bashing your head against for the entirety of the game. There are lots of cool things that could live in caves, and yet "bat-thing" and "rock-thing" was the best BW's design team could come up with.
    Yet regrettably enough, it's still light-years ahead of the cave-dwellers we've got in other generations.

    ...Y'know, as a side note to all this discussion, as someone in a landlocked area, are jellyfish really that common in the ocean? Actual serious question here.
    "Okay, so I'm going to quick draw and dual wield these one-pound caltrops as improvised weapons..."
    ---
    "Oh, hey, look! Blue Eyes Black Lotus!" "Wait what, do you sacrifice a mana to the... Does it like, summon a... What would that card even do!?" "Oh, it's got a four-energy attack. Completely unviable in actual play, so don't worry about it."

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    Default Re: Pokémon Thread XXVIII: Get. In. The. BAG.

    Quote Originally Posted by OracleofWuffing View Post
    ...Y'know, as a side note to all this discussion, as someone in a landlocked area, are jellyfish really that common in the ocean? Actual serious question here.
    It really depends on the area of the ocean, though I can't speak specifically for anywhere but the Pacific Northwest. However, Jellyfish are a good indicator species. In that if they're thriving, it means that all the normal ocean life has begun to be killed off by changing ocean conditions - whether that's acidity, chemical composition, or temperature. So, having consistently swarms of jellyfish in an ocean, at least around here, means something is seriously wrong. Make of that what you will, in regards to Tentacool encounter rates.
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    Default Re: Pokémon Thread XXVIII: Get. In. The. BAG.

    Quote Originally Posted by OracleofWuffing View Post
    Seems we agree on this point in general, but I have a question of consistency. I understand you consider GTS trades as lame, which is why you consider such pokemon unattainable. Then why suggest additional in-game trades? A trade is a trade, and if one just arbitrarily ignores an obtainment vector on a matter of opinion, the same principle would hold that we ignore other vectors, as well.
    Trading with in-game NPC's is one of my least favorite ways to acquire a Pokemon, actually. I like to always be the OT for my Pokemon, and I dislike not being able to change the name. So unless it's a Pokemon that can't breed, I always end up breeding a new one and then usually releasing the old one.

    That said, whatever it takes to get more Pokemon into the game is fine with me. NPC trades are okay because at least you know what you need to get in order to make that trade, and you know the trade will still be there when you come back a few days later after having caught whatever it is.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aotrs Commander View Post
    If you REALLY wanted to insist on having all 802 obtainable in one game (and honestly, I frankly find it enough to pick up the majority in a new game only worry about completing my living dex), it would make far more sense to seed the final evolution forms in late areas and make you breed for the the earlier forms...

    Because I was/am FRACKING SICK of encountering Geodude/Graveller/Zubat/Golbat (and to a very slightly lesser extent), Tentacool/Tentacruel every-freaking-where, let alone catching them. One of the better parts of Black/White was the majority of the game was at least a different set of Pokémon spammed in cave areas...
    I love this idea. And actually, I would be totally fine if Zubat and all its evolutions simply ceased to exist.

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    Default Re: Pokémon Thread XXVIII: Get. In. The. BAG.

    Quote Originally Posted by Velaryon View Post
    I love this idea. And actually, I would be totally fine if Zubat and all its evolutions simply ceased to exist.
    HOW DARE YOU SAY THAT IN FRONT OF CROBAT

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