Fallout VI: Shotguns and Six-Shooters

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I would disagree in some rare cases. I had a Crippling SMG that was an absolute monster because of the rate of fire it could pour out. Not a knock down weapon, but extremely useful. It does shine in one other aspect, that none of the others do. It's got a Rate of Fire that's completely unmatched by any of the other guns. Only the Minigun and Laser Gatling beat it, and both have much more expensive/rare ammo.

Disagree. A common Pipe Pistol with the Crippling affix would have exactly the same result, with cheaper ammo.

I will spare the comment about Stormwind only applying to RPG's. The point is taken, but for whatever reason, it's in the heads of those discussing it, that the only application of the assault rifle is as an Automatic, which very few weapons shine as. It's super effective as a Battle Rifle, especially with the Advanced Receiver, making it hit hard and fire quick. 5.56 also weighs less than it's direct competition in .308, and .50. .45 still beat's it, but it's kind of impossible to beat that for weight/damage.

The Handmade Rifle says 'hi'. 7.62 ammo weighs just as little as 5.56, and the damage output just destroys the Assault Rifle. Worse, the two uniques you can get from vendors/quests has the Furious effect, which is PERFECT for an automatic weapon, since the damage per shot ramps up for every shot on target. Pretty soon, it's going to go from 'holy hell that hurt' to 'Gauss Rifle got nothin' on me'. Granted, not so much as a 'battle rifle', in which case you'd probably want Explosive, Plasma-Infused, or Freezing. And if you want to snipe with it (and it is VERY competitive as a sniper weapon), you'll want to farm up an Instigating version.

Handmade Rifle is the end-all-be-all rifle which takes both the Assault and Combat rifle to the curb, much less the SMG and Pipe Rifle. Auto or semi-auto, it really wins the day, and pretty much the only weapon to consider if you are a Commando build (since the Gatling Laser is classified as a Heavy Weapon).

I meant they should have focused more on one or the other, instead of trying and failing to do both adequately.

Sadly, they're relying on the community at large to provide the solution because... There's A Mod For That*.

[Balmas]

I think that's necessary to make the difficulty scaling work. Otherwise, what's to stop you from maxing out Rifleman at level 6? I don't think the problem is the level requirements, so much as the lack of pre-requisites. The FO4 talent bingo board lets you pick and choose exactly what you want to get, which ironically, means that you can't gate stronger talents behind weaker ones. I like Skyrim's system better, because while maybe you didn't care about getting a point into Eagle Eye or Critical Shot because they were kind of spud talents by themselves, but the better stuff was gated on your picking them up. Skyrim's balance was a hot mess, but that's because of how they implemented their crafting and armor mechanics. But having played both a fair bit, I like Skyrim's approach better.

Personally, I'd rather not have any kind of perk tax to get to what I want. My reason for taking a perk should be "This is a cool and interesting (or at least, mechanically rewarding) perk," instead of a pile of crap that I have to shovel through to get to the good stuff.

Then again, in the interests of full disclosure, I'm one of the people who thinks that the perk system in Vanilla Skyrim is genuinely terrible, and try to mod it away at the first opportunity.

There are plenty of interesting ones you could have that could give conditional damage. Like a perk that increases damage from shotguns if the enemy's armour is under a certain threshold, or one that gives increased headshot damage against targets over a certain distance away, or increased melee damage from behind or for a short time after blocking, and so on. Things that aren't dull and automatic but feed into a system where you actually have a build for your character.

Or stuff like And Stay Back!, which is more defensively oriented if you use shotguns regularly.

My two cents on what Bethesda did right, and where they could improve:

What They Did Right

* Palette and character design. I will agree with Balamas that this is a core strength, but I'm actually going to cite a different, and possibly contradictory reason: Because it isn't photo-realistic. It is a stylized technique which creates verisimilitude, even when you have blatantly non-human but human-like enemies like Super Mutants without falling off the Uncanny Valley. The physics engine is deliberately NOT uber-realistic, because that isn't going to support their cinematic style which they have been building. They have a deliberate skew, because it just feels so good to see your opponent flying after blowing his head off. That sort of thing is totally unrealistic... but it is extremely cinematic and that's the name of their game.

Verisimilitude is a good word for it. I've noticed that even a fully-modded New Vegas doesn't compare to Fallout 4. There are things that are coded-in in 4 that the New Vegas engine just doesn't know how to handle.

* Open World design. True to Bethesda design, you can get almost anywhere you want at any time you want... assuming you can get through the meatwall. The game subtly channels you to certain areas because they aren't as dangerous as others, but you can theoretically 'rush' practically any area, so long as you can survive it.

I will note that this has certain caveats, as Bethesda is very dedicated to ensuring that you can't skip portions of the main quest. You can't access the downstairs area of Fort Hagen until the game decides you should find Kellogg. (And once the game forces you to confront a man who's backed up by a platoon of synths, you then cannot go back up the elevator you came down, as it's locked down. No, you need to take the elevator to the roof of the fort so you can see the Brotherhood's grand entrance.) If you head to Virgil's cave before you're sent there, Virgil's stuff is there, but the man himself is not. In the Far Harbor DLC, there are a ton of areas you can't access and loot that you can't find until the game says you should actually be able to find it.

There's probably more, but I'd need to actually boot up the game to find out.

Where they could improve:

* Game Balance. Ultimately, this is the single biggest failure. Honestly, it needs a systemic change from top to bottom. Actually, what it needs is F3 is to F:NV as FO4 is to this'. Take the awesome mechanics that I was talking about earlier, and build an actual game with it. This is where the Gear Modding system kind of breaks down as well. Some weapons are just... completely worthless (SMG's anyone?), whereas others are CLEAR outliers in effectiveness. The numbers need to be redone. The weapons re-conceptualized. There's no need for an SMG when you have an Automatic Combat Rifle that uses the same ammo to FAR greater effect or the Automatic Pipe Pistol that uses cheaper and more plentiful ammo to the same effect and a third the weight.

Personally, I find that game balance is much less important than the plot. It's relatively easy to change balance--just make an .esp that changes some values--but you can't fix a bad story.

As for the Settlement, the problem I find is that they couldn't seem to make up their minds about what they were doing with it. If the changes had been purely aesthetic, that would have been one thing. I can run around decorating the place however I want, la-di-da! Or purely functional: I'm going to build this thing that makes mines, and that one that makes bullets, and then this big water making thing so I can sell/drink it.

Either make it completely cosmetic, or totally essential.

Actually, that's the perfect transition into the second category I wanted to talk about, which is Things Which Could Have Been Better. As I see it, the major entry in this category is the Settlement system.

Let me preface this by saying that I genuinely love the settlement system in Fallout 4. It's fun, it enables the player to exert some limited amount of change in the world around themselves, and it gives a purpose to the sheer amount of junk that's just lying around the Commonwealth. Of the 500-something hours I've invested in the game, at least 200 are dedicated to making sure that my settlers have got everything set up right.

At the same time, it's in an awkward place. If you take out the settlement building system, you lose the great majority of F4's content. At the same time, settlement building isn't given any of the support it needs to truly shine as the central focus of the game. It's too long for Dick, and too short for Richard. I'd be happy with a game that embraces the loot-shoot-build nature of late-game settlement building, and backs it up with a proper building system. I'd be happy with a game with no settlement system whatsoever, but which focuses its efforts on better quest and a more coherent story. However, since Bethesda split their focus, we're left with a game that's subpar at both.

Things that need to happen either way:
Fix. The damn. Interface. Right now, the settlement system is positively crippled by the nonsensical array that we're forced to put up with since console controllers don't have enough buttons. Worse than that, there's practically no way to determine whether what you want to put down will actually land in the space you want it to go, or whether it's going to get caught on a pixel's width of invisible hitbox, or simply decide that screw you, it's not going to work. As is, the base game allows no way to introduce minute adjustments, exact positioning of objects, or to place objects where the game doesn't think they should go. If it's my settlement, then I should be able to place it where I want things to go, thanks very much.
Ideas for extending the settlement building system:

• Make this the main focus of the game. If you want post-apoc Sims/Minecraft, embrace that.
• Make scrapping and storing more expansive and consistent. Let me scrap stuff like leaves, clean the weeds out of the sidewalk, knock walls out of houses, take roofs off the top to make room for sniper platforms. Let me move cars, ships, boxcars, entire buildings. The goal is to give me control over every aspect of settlements.
• Flesh out settlers. As is, all settlers do is make the numbers get bigger; if you're doing this game entirely for the settling aspect, I'd need to have more investment in the people I'm working for. Give me personalities, quests, stuff to actually make them unique instead of NPC#2382.
• Give the Settlers the ability to actually do something. Let me assign them to strip an area after I've cleared the hostiles from the area. Maybe they can trade with other cities, spread the fame of my cities.
• I dunno. As I typed this up, I realized that most of them were dumb ideas. What do you think?

[factotum]

Ideas for extending the settlement building system:
[list][*]Make this the main focus of the game. If you want post-apoc Sims/Minecraft, embrace that.

Please God, NO! The settlement stuff was pointless and intrusive enough as it is, and you want to make it grow and take over the entire game like some sort of 50s blob monster? As far as I'm concerned, the most effective way to improve the settlement building system is to cut it entirely and use the time saved to add more content to other areas of the game--Fallout 4 is notably lacking in sidequests compared to previous Fallout games or Skyrim.

[GloatingSwine]

Personally, I find that game balance is much less important than the plot. It's relatively easy to change balance--just make an .esp that changes some values--but you can't fix a bad story.

You can't fix a bad story, but this is a Bethesda game, which means you lose nothing for ignoring it completely :P

[Rodin]

Please God, NO! The settlement stuff was pointless and intrusive enough as it is, and you want to make it grow and take over the entire game like some sort of 50s blob monster? As far as I'm concerned, the most effective way to improve the settlement building system is to cut it entirely and use the time saved to add more content to other areas of the game--Fallout 4 is notably lacking in sidequests compared to previous Fallout games or Skyrim.

Amen to that. Frankly, the settlement building should have been either a side project dedicated game, or it should have been a DLC expansion so that those of us who came to play Fallout and not Minecraft didn't get our game diluted.

Unfortunately, I seem to be in the minority where turning everything into build-your-own-everything is concerned, so I'm not-so-eagerly awaiting SimFallout V, where all sidequests and main quests have been removed and it's just random dungeons to loot and find new blueprints to wallpaper your metal shack with.

[Mutazoia]

Make scrapping and storing more expansive and consistent. Let me scrap stuff like leaves, clean the weeds out of the sidewalk,

As usual, there's a mod (several actually) for that.

[GloatingSwine]

The settlement building interface needed to be less Minecraft and more Tropico. A few more prebuilt structures for those of us who can't be arsed to snap awkward rubbish together, randomly generate names and lists of wants and likes/dislikes for settlers. Maybe give them varying skills at a few different tasks that determine how much they farm, how much material they generate when they're on scavenging duty, their item selection and happiness impact when they're on shops etc.

And they needed to focus on one settlement and make it a really great space to build in instead of having 30 of which most were crap like Coastal Cottage that only exist as a place to send Preston Garvey so you can avoid him forever.

[DigoDragon]

And they needed to focus on one settlement and make it a really great space to build in instead of having 30 of which most were crap like Coastal Cottage that only exist as a place to send Preston Garvey so you can avoid him forever.

This. ^

In the hundreds of hours I've played Skyrim I don't think I've ever really maintained more than like... two homes at once despite that there are a dozen you can buy or build. I cannot imagine I'd care to make more than one settlement. I like the idea of being a community leader and designing my own little shanty town, but ultimately I just need one central location to store my stuff, not deal with a 30-settlement franchise.

[Triaxx]

Okay, that's weird. Weight is a quarter on the pipe SMG, and they have the same damage, same DPS.

But not on Spray and Pray. Spray and Pray has a DMG of 33. 16 from the powerful reciever, and 15 from explosive damage. So where is the other two damage coming from?

Ammo cost doesn't bother me. Either it comes from the guy who's head I've just exploded, or I trade ammo types I'm not using for ones that I am.

Why the insistence on making the Assault Rifle automatic? We've repeatedly established Auto=BAD. That said, there's less than a pound of difference between a fully kitted Assault Rifle and an equivalently kitted Handmade. (27.1-28)

---

Personally I'd say four or five settlements, instead of just one. Say... Sanctuary Hills, and then Red Rocket. (Red Rocket for a player home so you have a place without all the whiny babies running around and using the bloody workbench you need the exact moment you realize you need it.) Hangman's Alley, because it's a cool location. Then Spectacle Island, and Jamaica Plain, with the task of rebuilding the town.

Then each faction has it's own because the main story relies on that. Castle, Airport, and then the Railroad could take over a Subway station, with the surface area being your construction zone, and then an underground area with Railroad agents.

Also, see this? It's flat ground. LEARN TO LOVE IT. Or at least give me tools to level the bloody ground with.

And while it would make the minutemen less interesting, instead of the settlements needing 'help' by which I mean being totally unable to do anything despite all the things they've done before I got there, each one produces a unique resource. Abernathy Farm produces a small, but continuous supply of fertilizer. County Crossing is next to the super irradiated propane tanks, and so produces a supply of nuclear material. But you've got to do their questy thing still.

On the other hand, Bethesda's one shining attribute is the more you like something the less they like to repeat it. So we won't see settlement building next time. It'll be replaced with something else half the people will like, and half will hate, and everyone will complain endlessly about.

[Avilan the Grey]

wut.

Not sure if serious or trolling. Game balance is the single most important aspect of ANY game, single or multiplayer.

Wait... did I just fail a Detect Scarcasm check?

No troll no sarcasm.
But balance, outside of a minimum required amount is irrelevant to single player.
Not all builds should be equal. If you ignore combat completely it is your problem not Bethesda's. As an example.
And if a mage is easier to survive on high levels than a thief? That is entirely fine.

Now. In a game like overwatch balance is the second most important issue after gameplay. In Pillars of Eternity? maybe the 9th most important thing.

[Balmas]

As usual, there's a mod (several actually) for that.

Here's the thing, though: there shouldn't have to be a mod. Imagine playing Minecraft or Terraria, but you can't move normally when you're placing items, there are some things that can't be moved or destroyed, there's things that can't be placed in a spot even though they fit perfectly fine a millimeter away from that spot, there's no way to guess which item falls under which category, and every item you want to place is in a nesting, scrolling menu behind at least two other nested scrolling menu.

Please God, NO! The settlement stuff was pointless and intrusive enough as it is, and you want to make it grow and take over the entire game like some sort of 50s blob monster? As far as I'm concerned, the most effective way to improve the settlement building system is to cut it entirely and use the time saved to add more content to other areas of the game--Fallout 4 is notably lacking in sidequests compared to previous Fallout games or Skyrim.

Yep, one of the options I listed was to cut it out entirely. But in the words of Ron Swanson, you should never half-ass two things; whole-ass one thing. If you're going to include it, it should be developed well, given the support it needs, and fixed so that console UIs and limitations don't force everyone else to suffer.

You can't fix a bad story, but this is a Bethesda game, which means you lose nothing for ignoring it completely :P

Except all of the Institute content, most of the Brotherhood content, and half of the quests which are locked behind it. But I see yoru point.

Personally I'd say four or five settlements, instead of just one. Say... Sanctuary Hills, and then Red Rocket. (Red Rocket for a player home so you have a place without all the whiny babies running around and using the bloody workbench you need the exact moment you realize you need it.) Hangman's Alley, because it's a cool location. Then Spectacle Island, and Jamaica Plain, with the task of rebuilding the town.

Then each faction has it's own because the main story relies on that. Castle, Airport, and then the Railroad could take over a Subway station, with the surface area being your construction zone, and then an underground area with Railroad agents.

Also, see this? It's flat ground. LEARN TO LOVE IT. Or at least give me tools to level the bloody ground with.

And while it would make the minutemen less interesting, instead of the settlements needing 'help' by which I mean being totally unable to do anything despite all the things they've done before I got there, each one produces a unique resource. Abernathy Farm produces a small, but continuous supply of fertilizer. County Crossing is next to the super irradiated propane tanks, and so produces a supply of nuclear material. But you've got to do their questy thing still.

On the other hand, Bethesda's one shining attribute is the more you like something the less they like to repeat it. So we won't see settlement building next time. It'll be replaced with something else half the people will like, and half will hate, and everyone will complain endlessly about.

This. So much this. Instead of having thirty crap settlements, I'd say to shoot for a total of ten quality ones, with flat ground, lots of space, access to water and dirt...

[Triaxx]

Or failing flat ground, something that's designed to take advantage of ground that's not level so it at least looks like the structure is supported.

[Morphic tide]

Or failing flat ground, something that's designed to take advantage of ground that's not level so it at least looks like the structure is supported.

Like the concrete pillars? Or the shack foundations? Or really any of the foundations or concrete things, come to think of it...

I have discovered the worth of having a level 3 shop adjacent to the fast travel location. Much caps to sell for, many items to buy for mods I can't make yet. Also ammo to buy. I use laser weapons, so ammo is an actual monetary concern, to the point that I run to every place I hear of having Synths to kill. I have yet to have more than 2,000 caps at the same time because of the cost. It's not nearly as much a problem at this point, because I've gotten to the point of 2 shotting Deathclaws with my laser rifle of choice. Instigating is so very, very good... I one shot Legendary enemies semi-frequently at this point.

I have also discovered immense frustration at the search function of the mod interface. I just want my "any mod on any weapon" mod! So that I can have my rapid fire missile shotgun with heat seeking warheads! Also the Legendary effect crafting mod, so that I can switch around effects to better weapons. Explosive Flamethrower sounds like a nightmare of doom, for one...

[The_Jackal]

Ah, good, we've reached this point: OHMG, Dis ar teh WRNG WY 2 PLY. Y U NO Min/Max!

I could be misinterpreting your remark, but to mee it seems you're conflating my desire to be presented with interesting choices with some kind of prescription for YOU should play the game. If you don't care about how the system works, and you just want want to shoot giant cockroaches, good on you. I care about the balance of the game system because I like having choices, and I don't like having to make choices that are imbalanced. I care about rifleman being objectively better than gunslinger, because I'd like to do a gunslinger run, and not do the bullet sponge thing when I'm playing on survival.

Seriously, just because it's not the absolute optimal way to play the game, does not make it wrong. This I will argue forever.

I COULD NOT CARE LESS how you play the game. I honestly hope the inverse is true.

Gear modding is awesome, but the default titling system is awful. Marksman's automatic tactical pipe rifle? I don't need bullets, I can bludgeon the enemy with the title. Good thing we can rename things.

I think it's probably best that they spent more money on making the modding system good, than making the name of modded weapons good. Money is fungible, and all that.

I won't argue game balance. That's a no-win situation, though I agree the presence of bullet sponges is symptomatic. (And it's been around since Morrowind, so there's no point complaining now.)

I'm basically with Sheenkey all the way on this one, though I will hedge insofar as it's deceptively difficult to balanace ALL of the options they give you. That's why I'm more concerned about the damage reduction mechanics than comparing one weapon to another. It simply grotesquely rewards burst damage over volume of fire.

As for the Settlement, the problem I find is that they couldn't seem to make up their minds about what they were doing with it. If the changes had been purely aesthetic, that would have been one thing. I can run around decorating the place however I want, la-di-da! Or purely functional: I'm going to build this thing that makes mines, and that one that makes bullets, and then this big water making thing so I can sell/drink it.

I'm afraid I'm in the "It's a poor aesthetic and design choice" segment of the player population. The settlement systems are, IMO, tedious, and dramatically undercut the sense of scarcity and ruin that's thematic to a post-apocalyptic game. It seems to be like a "let's broaden the appeal of our story-based wasteland shooter by adding minecraft elements to it". I guess it's a nice diversion if you're a minecraft player, but that's just not my bag.

Either make it completely cosmetic, or totally essential.

This. As it was, the settlement system actually feels like a millstone when I play. I actively avoid missions that unlock settlements, because I don't want another handful of mouths to feed, and I'm pretty sure I'm not alone, what with the Preston Gravey memes out there.

There's 'not min/maxing', then there's 'literally no mechanical reason to ever pick this weapon up'.

Exactly. Plus when they add ammunition weight for survival, the balance problems are thrown into sharper relief.

I would disagree in some rare cases. I had a Crippling SMG that was an absolute monster because of the rate of fire it could pour out.

An automatic pipe rifle has exactly the same rate of fire as a SMG, while being lighter, doing the same damage, and having more abundant ammunition. While there are some legendary effects that do benefit from automatic fire, I'm not sure that justifies the medicrity of the base characteristics of high fire-rate weapons.

I will spare the comment about Stormwind only applying to RPG's. The point is taken, but for whatever reason, it's in the heads of those discussing it, that the only application of the assault rifle is as an Automatic, which very few weapons shine as. It's super effective as a Battle Rifle, especially with the Advanced Receiver, making it hit hard and fire quick. 5.56 also weighs less than it's direct competition in .308, and .50. .45 still beat's it, but it's kind of impossible to beat that for weight/damage.

Yeah, I did that math earlier in the thread, but the point remains that going automatic AT ALL is decidedly mediocre, especially in survival.

Personally, I'd rather not have any kind of perk tax to get to what I want. My reason for taking a perk should be "This is a cool and interesting (or at least, mechanically rewarding) perk," instead of a pile of crap that I have to shovel through to get to the good stuff.

Clearly the correct solution is make every perk 100% fair and balanced. The trouble with that is it is nigh-impossible, which is why I think trees are a better design. Giving you 'exactly what you want' doesn't necessarily make for a better, more satisfying game system. While a tree system won't forgive talents which are complete filler (Hello, there, V.A.N.S.), it will make it easier to provide you with a sense of progression while making the game easier to tune and balance. I'm not advocating crap talents, just suggesting that providing a flat menu interspersed with crap talents and non-crap ones doesn't make things better.

But balance, outside of a minimum required amount is irrelevant to single player.
Not all builds should be equal. If you ignore combat completely it is your problem not Bethesda's.

I worry that you're getting hung up on semantics. How about instead of 'balance' replace the term with 'viable options' in any difficulty.

[snowblizz]

I absolutely love the settlement building stuff. The interface leaves some to be desired though. Screw consoles is all I'm saying. Screw em.

Snapping and placement issues confound me at every turn. A number of the pre-existing structures and random garbage blocking stuff. Why can't I renovate existing housing? Or clear items out (yea I know mods but still).

Why is the Jamaica plains workshop placed that way, why couldn't it be more centrally to the settlement. Seems really awkwardly placed.
I do actually enjoy the challenge of Hangman's Alley (trying to make a multistory anthive settlement) but boy is it frustrating to cram stuff in. Also ran out of allowed pieces, wtf? I do feel the settlements could be larger, they aren't all the same size are they? Starlights(?) Drive-in and Sanctuary hills seem a lot larger than some others. And plenty of places on the map just makes me wonder why is there no settlement here?

By what a friend showed me the Vault 88 add on would be right up my alley but I'd like some more "city building" options, and the ppl that could be expanded a bit more in tasks maybe than now. Flesh out settlers as someone said. Sancturay hills is constanly being patched but it never seems to get any better. Be fun if my progress showed in improvements to it somehow. I've been creating Starlight as a central trading hub, be nice if that was somehow acknowledged. Bunker Hill should probably be very angry with me.

There's only 2 real NPC towns are there? Dimond City and Goodneighbour.

Could be more done with Picket Fences magazine mechanics, be fun if you could learn "recepies" as it were for more things. (Yea I knwo mods... am gonna have to finish the game so I can go on a mod bender playthrough). Why is there no windmill powered waterpump thingy?

And trying to draw powerlines drives me nuts. How can it be so hard to get power from the outside inside.

[Avilan the Grey]

I worry that you're getting hung up on semantics. How about instead of 'balance' replace the term with 'viable options' in any difficulty.

To a point you are right. Though I am.. hesitant to agree with you about your actual point: The game should be at it's best on Normal difficulty. If not all builds are viable on very hard (or nightmare or whatever you call it depending on game) then it is perfectly fine with me. It seems a lot of people have the incompatible parallel attitudes of "All games should be played on max difficulty or not at all" and "The game is balanced wrong because my favorite character concept doesn't work on the highest difficulty"

[Triaxx]

Um... *reads topic* Oh, sorry, that was directed at GloatingSwine. I have no interest in how you play, unless you ask for advice. I think all methods of play are equally valid, even if it's not technically the best. If you want to run around with a basic pipe pistol, then I think that's awesome. It's going to be harder, sure, but that's as much fun as playing to one-shot something.

True, but Pipe Weapon (Modified) is probably less effort than all the pre/suffixes.

I don't know. Given that most of the automatics have an option for armor-piercing receivers, I don't think it's that bad.

If the settlements had started out with the Contraptions stuff, it might have been a better draw. But by the time they turned up, we'd already had not only ammo crafting but also additional ammo options for months already. More function and leave form for the afterwards. Though to be fair, once Wasteland Workshop arrived with it's beautiful concrete, I quit using junk walls.

*shrug* I just enjoy playing my way, whether it's 'correct' or not.

---

@snowblizz: Two options: If you're on PC, there are mods to get around build limits. If you're not, then a vanilla trick works on both, which is to drop weapons and then scrap them, which for some reason counts as removing items and nets you more build 'points'.

Wasteland Workshop and Contraptions both added some useful things for power. Contraptions in particular has conduits that can pass power through walls, and radiators that spread power to objects, even if it's on the other side of a ceiling.

Fun thing about Jamaica Plains: If you're sneaky enough, you can clear it out, and then build the place into a Feral deathtrap and lure the rest of the town too you.

[LuckGuy]

I'd be happy if the settlements was an actual mini-game. The most basic would be to have settlers required for building, so that you have to have enough resources to support workers. Food and water would need to be much more limited too. You'd have to balance expansion vs keeping people happy, with raider and monster attacks thrown in to keep things interesting. There's a million implementations of that basic idea which could have been copied if nothing else.

[GloatingSwine]

Um... *reads topic* Oh, sorry, that was directed at GloatingSwine. I have no interest in how you play, unless you ask for advice. I think all methods of play are equally valid, even if it's not technically the best. If you want to run around with a basic pipe pistol, then I think that's awesome. It's going to be harder, sure, but that's as much fun as playing to one-shot something.

As long as you don't make it automatic, unless you want it for a specific legendary effect.

It's not my fault Bethesda decided automatic weapons should be trash, doing inexplicably only a fraction of the damage they would if they weren't automatic whilst being further punished by the armour system.

But they are. An automatic version of a weapon is strictly worse than a nonautomatic version of the same weapon. Sure, you can get Crippling and break something's knees, or you can do enough damage with your first stealthed headshot to kill it outright.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Okay, that's weird. Weight is a quarter on the pipe SMG, and they have the same damage, same DPS.

But not on Spray and Pray. Spray and Pray has a DMG of 33. 16 from the powerful reciever, and 15 from explosive damage. So where is the other two damage coming from?

Ammo cost doesn't bother me. Either it comes from the guy who's head I've just exploded, or I trade ammo types I'm not using for ones that I am.

Why the insistence on making the Assault Rifle automatic? We've repeatedly established Auto=BAD. That said, there's less than a pound of difference between a fully kitted Assault Rifle and an equivalently kitted Handmade. (27.1-28)

I believe I may not have made my point clear...

If you want 'babby's first automatic', use an automatic pipe pistol. If you want an automatic that uses .45 ammo, use a combat rifle. In no case is the SMG a viable choice. It's not a matter of insisting on making it an automatic, it is trying to compare apples and apples for those who like automatic weapons and trying to be encouraging to a build which is clearly sub-optimal but might be fun to play. Yanno, supporting your right to play however you want, even if it isn't 'optimal'?

And was demonstrating that even IF you want to play with Commando, the SMG is *STILL* not worth bothering with. On the one side, the pipe pistol is obtained earlier and deals the same damage with cheaper and lighter ammo. On the other side, the combat rifle is actually marginally lighter and deals FAR more damage with the same ammo. There isn't a margin or corner case in which the SMG is viable. Ever. It is, mechanically, always going to be a 'bad' choice. You are deliberately making your character less powerful than he otherwise would be, even within the same play style, by choosing to use this.

This is an ex-weapon.

That's not to say that using a combat rifle as an automatic doesn't make Pun-Pun cry, because it does. But that's optimization, and a whole 'nother topic which, while relevant, isn't the point we were discussing.

No troll no sarcasm.
But balance, outside of a minimum required amount is irrelevant to single player.
Not all builds should be equal. If you ignore combat completely it is your problem not Bethesda's. As an example.
And if a mage is easier to survive on high levels than a thief? That is entirely fine.

Now. In a game like overwatch balance is the second most important issue after gameplay. In Pillars of Eternity? maybe the 9th most important thing.

Well, I don't really know what to say, then, other than:

I accept that this is your personal belief, and I respect your right to hold that belief, even as I disagree with it in the strongest possible terms.

If you have no internal balance to the system, it simply doesn't work. The player takes the clearly optimal choice, and you are less playing a game than watching a movie. The genre is a 'first person looter', which requires challenging NPC's in combat. If the combat system is not relatively balanced, the entire mechanic behind the draw to the game collapses.

[Rodin]

Well, I don't really know what to say, then, other than:

I accept that this is your personal belief, and I respect your right to hold that belief, even as I disagree with it in the strongest possible terms.

If you have no internal balance to the system, it simply doesn't work. The player takes the clearly optimal choice, and you are less playing a game than watching a movie. The genre is a 'first person looter', which requires challenging NPC's in combat. If the combat system is not relatively balanced, the entire mechanic behind the draw to the game collapses.

I think it depends on what we're talking about. To take a couple examples from the same developer:

In Oblivion, you can enchant gear so that you are 100% invisible all of the time, which utterly breaks the game as the AI doesn't know how to handle it. You're effectively invulnerable. I have zero problem with this in a single player game, because it takes effort on the part of the player to do and the simple solution is "Don't do that."

In Fallout 4, automatic weapons are worthless. That's a systemic problem that should have been addressed. It isn't a single interaction that breaks the game and can easily be avoided by the player, but rather a major game feature that's not working as intended.

[Triaxx]

There's absolutely a reason to pick them up. (And then drop them again because even I admit you only need one for completionism.) They hold more bullets in a magazine or drum than any other weapon of the caliber. So you pick it up to get the ammo, and then drop the gun again.

Combat Rifle, even if automatic did the same damage, is the worst bloody automatic weapon in a field of incredibly awful automatic weapons. Two shots on target and then you're firing into the (deleted) sky. (It also maths out to slightly heavier than SMG, but it's not significant enough to make a difference in the argument.)

[Spore]

In Fallout 4, automatic weapons are worthless. That's a systemic problem that should have been addressed. It isn't a single interaction that breaks the game and can easily be avoided by the player, but rather a major game feature that's not working as intended.

Funnily enough I consider automatic weapons endgame while in reality they were concepted so that even a rookie gunman could reliably hit SOMETHING. For when you don't have to worry about caps, or ammo or efficiency anymore. Sadly, automatic weapons have their own perk. Maybe they are just meant as a sidearm for melee characters with terrible perception but even then I would prefer either walking those 20 meters and bashing the guy OR using a useful long range rifle and popping that annoying guy's head.

And I have played roleplay games that do the "automatic weapons are for terrible aimers" thing way better.

[Balmas]

I'm too tired to write down any thoughts tonight, but I'm rather enjoying this video. Guy makes some good points about how Fallout 4 was developed, and how its quests all fall flat as a result.

[Rynjin]

Yeah, there are a lot of good things about Fallout 4. The gunplay is nice, the weapon and armor customization is a fun idea (though it could use work because of the tedious "Loot, drop off junk, craft, loot again" treadmill), the voiced protagonist is better than I thought it would be, and I like a lot of the characters, particularly the companions.

But the settlement building is atrocious and it seems to have taken a lot away from the rest of the game.

The quests are generally bland and same-y even in flavor (of all the quests in the game, the only ones that have really stuck with me are the Silver Shroud questline and Pickman's Gallery before the anticlimactic end).

The lack of skills takes a lot away from the progression of the game, and the shift to the weird perk wall just felt off.

I still go back and play Skyrim when I get the itch (particularly with the Special Edition out now) and even Oblivion. I'm tempted to hop back into New Vegas and 3 as well (Tale of Two Wastelands is the bomb). But Fallout 4 every time I get tempted to play it I very swiftly remember how dissatisfied I was with the game as a whole. It has no sense of really getting stronger over time, just better equipped. Most of the perks are unsatisfying in effect, being boring damage bonuses or other "boring, but practical" stuff like increased accuracy in VATs or more banked criticals. The quests are generally unappealing largely because it feels like you, personally, have little effect on the world.

Looking at just the modern games, Fallout 3 is a very personal story, maybe not implemented the best, but your search for dad and picking up of his torch makes a nice arc, and you end up having a lasting effect on the future of the everyday lives of everyone in the Capital Wasteland. New Vegas puts you at the crux of everything in the Mojave. For better or worse you end up making or breaking nations by the end, even discounting Lonesome Road.

Fallout 4 is a lazy rehash of 3's instigator plot (find dad/find Shaun) and the consequences of your actions are relatively minor overall. The daily lives of people in the Commonwealth (and the fact that it took me like 30 seconds to remember the name tells you how engaging the setting was...) are largely unchanged by the destruction of the Institute. Maybe it's different if you side with them? But I doubt it.

It doesn't help that your choice of faction is between a group of *******s (the Institute), an even bigger group of *******s (the Brotherhood), and the Railroad who...exist, I guess. Oh yeah and the Minutemen. Forgot they were an option.

A lot of this stuff SHOULD have been right up my alley. I love base building stuff and getting to be the big man of an organization like you wouldn't believe. Restoring and upgrading the town in Assassin's Creed 2 was one of my favorite parts, I like Xcom, and the fact that you're the face of a major political/military organization in Dragon Age: Origins (and Inquisition...and the Mass Effect series) are my favorite parts about them. But all of those things have what Fallout 4 lacks in that area: Focus. You have one base, fortify, expand, upgrade it to your hearts content. You have a set of named advisors, underlings, and specialists to keep you up to date on the goings on of the world, and then you act and your choices shape things in at least small ways even if the diamond shaped plot does eventually merge again.

In Fallout 4 you say "Howdy Settler" to the unnamed peons, and desperately try to avoid the whiny, useless, loud, obnoxious, ENDLESSLY BITCHING, and often drug addled wastes of ****ing space that occupy Sanctuary. Your companions sometimes chime in on quests and that is hands down the BEST part about the game, but those moments are relatively few and far between and fewer and farther if you're rolling with a companion whose name doesn't rhyme with Slick Balentine or Swiper. Not that I mind that much since Nick is the best NPC in this game, but still.

This game is one of my biggest disappointments with a game in recent memory. I actually can't think of a game that so thoroughly dashed my expectations and hopes for it to the point that I actually didn't care enough to say or write anything about it until now, utterly bored at 3 AM on a Friday over a year after its release.

[The_Jackal]

To a point you are right. Though I am.. hesitant to agree with you about your actual point: The game should be at it's best on Normal difficulty. If not all builds are viable on very hard (or nightmare or whatever you call it depending on game) then it is perfectly fine with me. It seems a lot of people have the incompatible parallel attitudes of "All games should be played on max difficulty or not at all" and "The game is balanced wrong because my favorite character concept doesn't work on the highest difficulty"

It's less that 'my favorite character concept' doesn't work', it's: 'You will play a rifleman using a single-shot weapon, probably a combat rifle, or you will die, frequently and horribly, because none of the other options are remotely close to it in effectiveness'.

Given that most of the automatics have an option for armor-piercing receivers, I don't think it's that bad.

If Rifleman didn't get 30% armor piercing with their perks, no additional mods required, it might not be that bad. Sadly, testing has shown that armor piercing receivers don't really accomplish very much. When I say that the Fallout game mechanics are bad and broken, it's not without reason. Now you might not care, but some of us do.

This is not to suggest that some of Fallout 4's other "could be better" features aren't also important, but I'm a gameplay sort of fellow, so how game math works, and how that math affects how the game feels is important, at least to me.

I'm too tired to write down any thoughts tonight, but I'm rather enjoying this video. Guy makes some good points about how Fallout 4 was developed, and how its quests all fall flat as a result.

I, on the other hand, have been rather enjoying this.

[factotum]

It's less that 'my favorite character concept' doesn't work', it's: 'You will play a rifleman using a single-shot weapon, probably a combat rifle, or you will die, frequently and horribly, because none of the other options are remotely close to it in effectiveness'.

I think that's a massive exaggeration? I've completed the game using both a stealthy sniper and a gunslinger, and I didn't notice any significant difference in difficulty between the two. Admittedly, neither of those runs were on Survival difficulty, but as far as I can see all that does is add a whole lot of pointless busywork like having to eat and drink to survive--if I want that sort of stuff I'll play Nethack.

[Triaxx]

Melee stealth finds your insistence on spitballs amusing. Furious Super Sledge with Blitz? Combined with perks and gear making you offensively and defensively stronger when standing still? With Grognak's armor also providing a direct melee bonus. I also believe you can apply Gun-fu but I've got to check on that. Plus Ninja's melee bonus is so much higher than it's ranged bonus it's not funny.

[The_Jackal]

neither of those runs were on Survival difficulty.

When you're taking quad damage, the time it takes to fill an enemy full of holes is considerably more important. There is NO analogue to the combat rifle in pistols, ie: nothing that hits like a truck, has a ton of cheap ammo, and bypasses a portion of the enemy's armor.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Melee stealth finds your insistence on spitballs amusing. Furious Super Sledge with Blitz? Combined with perks and gear making you offensively and defensively stronger when standing still? With Grognak's armor also providing a direct melee bonus. I also believe you can apply Gun-fu but I've got to check on that. Plus Ninja's melee bonus is so much higher than it's ranged bonus it's not funny.

That's a mid to late game build for everything to get together. Melee can be strong, but it requires rather extreme investment in perks to get it to work, AND requires you to get close to your opponent. Which is a BAD idea when said opponent is, say, a Super Mutant Suicider. Or a Mirelurk Queen. Or a Behemoth. Or a Deathclaw of any stripe. You get the idea.

For a stealth melee build to remotely work, you need to be good enough at stealth to get into melee range with your proposed target. AND any of his friends who will be rather upset with you. At places like, say, the Quarry, where raiders are all over the place, including across the chasm... that's a bit of a tall order. And you're going to be taking fire the whole time you are trying to close.

Don't get me wrong there, once it gets set up, stealth melee builds can be pretty sick, but it's a VERY long time until it becomes truly viable. Early to mid game... you're going to be dying more times than in Meatboy.

When you're taking quad damage, the time it takes to fill an enemy full of holes is considerably more important. There is NO analogue to the combat rifle in pistols, ie: nothing that hits like a truck, has a ton of cheap ammo, and bypasses a portion of the enemy's armor.

Cowboy Revolver