Erfworld 68 - Page 62

[ChowGuy]

(I didn't notice siege being mentioned in Ansom's battle plan when he first discussed it with the warlords after all).

Arroooo? This dicussion? What part are you missing in "But we don't know the weakest spot in the outer walls, so we will hit it from all directions, and pour through the first breach we get."?

Per Klog #5, Ansom has a backup, but it involves fighting his way in through the tunnels. He's already sending Marbits in there as a feint, but if necessary will make that the main attack. It will be messy and costly though, and he and Parson both know it. Parson know his best long range hope is/was to make it costly enough to save the city, but he's still willing to give Klog #3's "Ender's Game - Fool's Mate" option a try. "What about pegging Ansom himself? Would that be checkmate?"

[Fuzzy_Juan]

well...now we know that keeping Jillian in reserve was actually a great idea...leaves her free to do what needs to be done...but is she really strong enough to take on the A Dwagons and not get croaked? Will she be able to find them with enough move to get the job done...and...even if she can...will Parson shroud the units over the lake and make 'the hunt' pointless?

[sihnfahl]

well...now we know that keeping Jillian in reserve was actually a great idea...leaves her free to do what needs to be done...

The prevailing thought is that Ansom kept her in reserve so that, when he beat the warlords and injured dwagons, that he'd have a full-health protection force to pull in and keep him from croaking when Stanley's turn came up.
She just got... redirected... since his back's against the wall right now.

but is she really strong enough to take on the A Dwagons and not get croaked?

First off, it's not the dwagons; it's the warlords. If she can get rid of the warlords, the dwagons mean less. Yes, she may be croaked. BUT, if she can get rid of the warlords in the doing, it can save at least some of the siege units and makes an attack on GK feasable. Acceptable loss.

Will she be able to find them with enough move to get the job done?

She just needs that lucky 1 move point to get into that hex. If it's her last move point, it may be she can't retreat. But, if she can get rid of the warlords...

will Parson shroud the units over the lake and make 'the hunt' pointless?

Given that it's not Parson's turn, we're not sure if he can veil units now (it may be only doable if declared during his turn). Also, we can get a clue by Ansom's actions. The bats wouldn't reveal the veiled units; Ansom's group would have. Since Ansom sends Jillian on the hunt, knowing that Stanley could have veiled the dwagons, then I'd say no, the hunt wouldn't be pointless.

[ag30476]

You said that your suspension of disbelief was stretched. Unless you mean something different than the standard definition, that means that you found that the setup was implausible, or it had internal consistency issues. Thus, what makes this "got to do with making a good comic" is that maintaining internal consistency keeps the readers immersed in the world.

Right

As to whether "any competent warlord" could do what Parson did, I would have to suspect the answer is, no.

Well a lot of wargaming experts on this forum guessed that the hex might be empty. Not me. I'm not a wargaming expert.

He arrived with an amazing amount of preparation, and is portrayed as being unusually perceptive and able to deal with a difficult boss and the pressures from many real threats to his life, including from the whims of that leader. He has already wargamed out this scenario for months, (at least, that is heavily implied in the plot), undoubtedly varying a number of elements. Still, the weakest point about any story like this is that it's detailed enough that a large number of intelligent readers have a LOT of time to dissect every element of the story and judge it against their particular tactical abilities, some of which are probably pretty formidable (not me - I have always been a mediocre gamer). Your belief needs to remain suspended, dangling over the plot, for a looong time here.

See you're right but you're missing my point. So far, I don't see Parson proving his worth as the Perfect Warlord. Of course you don't have to game like the Perfect Warlord to write about the Perfect Warlord just like you don't have write the greatest rock song ever to write a story about the greatest rock song ever. You set up the character. But my suspension of my disbelief is not a whim on mine. It is an emotional reaction to the story as it is.

For me, I can suspend disbelief to different degrees depending on the story. An old episode of Dr. Who doesn't get the same level of disbelief that the LotR gets. It's not too say that Tolkien is more real than Dr. Who. It's just that if you see the feet suffling under the Dalek, I don't care. But if the hobbits stop being hobit-sized, then I do care.

Here, the problem I'm having is the setup is good but in the follow through, Parson is not getting any real challenges. This is what his 3rd day on Erf and his 1st real battle and it would seem at this point that his won the war already. Excuse me while I yawn.

Secondly, my interest in Erfworld is not based on how well Parson plays the rules which may or may not exist. Parson may be making great moves but then it's like watching a blown out game or a won end game in chess. If it is an endgame then change the channel or start a new game already. If Parson has beaten Ansom hands down, if Ansom boop is booped as booped can be booped, boop Ansom, start a new arc and get a fresh new anti-anti-hero in here but let's get some action going.

I am willing to suspend belief for a looong time here as long as it's wooorth it.

What makes it worse is that, like people endlessly rehashing US Civil War/WW I/ WW II, etc. battles, we have a TON more time to make decisions than the characters in the story. We waited longer between the release of page 61-62 than Parson Gotti has had since he arrived in Erfworld.

Who's this we? I tend to over-analyze literary elements not gaming elements because, as I said, I'm not the gaming master. I'm not a master of literary analysis either. I'm more venting at the fact that, yes, "we waited longer between the release of page 61-62 than Parson Gotti has had since he arrived in Erfworld", but also that we just got essentially a continuation of the previous cliffhanger and that it looks like to me that the cliffhanger won't be resolved until at least page 64 if page 63 is filled with reactions and expositions to 61-62.

[ag30476]

It has everything to do with making a good comic. Or at least a good story. Otherwise it's just another Peter Jackson hack job - all battle scenes and special effects, but the characters get lost. And it's the charatcters that a story should be about.

I can see that we will disagree cause I thought did a great job bringing LotR to the screen....tangent...I like Tolkien but it is loooong and boring and he did a good editing job. AND I though he did most of the characters and interpersonal relationships well, often better than in the books, Elrond's relationship with hos daughter, Samwise's friendship with Fordo...back to our regularly shceduled waste of time...

Anyway, I was talking about characters and story. And action is part of the story. Exposition, not so much. What we've had in 61 and 62 is a lot of exposition.

I said

My problem with the story is the coalition itself. Although I'm fine with coalition being personalized by 3 main characters, I'm not fine with the coalition not seeming to have sufficient fire power to make it a real fight. This threatens suspension of disbelief for me.

To which berrew responded

What Parson did is to severely limit the Alliance's options in this one, particular, narrow set of circumstances. A force is no good if it cannot be brought to bear.

First, Parson clearly took advantage of a tactical choice on the part of the Alliance. We know that the Alliance's air power is twice that of Stanley's vaunted dwagons - thus, it seems evident that due to Lord Stanley's general incompetence, Ansom has been following the usually foolish strategy of "moderately strong everywhere". That strategy rarely works against a competent opponent (unless there's some tricksy strategic reasoning involved), and it certainly is hurting the Alliance now.

Second, Parson has been able to take advantage of his short window of opportunity to outstanding effect - namely by forcing a major shift in immediate Alliance strategy (assuming he is able to deal effectively with the remaining siege weapons).

Third, showing the fractious nature of the Alliance probably forces the Alliance to make a tunnel assault their permanent strategic goal - without that friction, there isn't some limiting timetable that a cautious gamer would use to make a hammer big enough to blow away anything that Parson could do (see the Xykon quote mentioned several times above).

My one-liner was saying...look I'm having a problem with the setting of the story and the character of the setting and he is saying that it all makes sense if you look at it from a gaming perspective. That is, that he and I seemed to be talking at corss-purposes at that point. But in his last post, he did address directly my concern about SoD.

[Vreejack]

I don't think the genocide of the Cherokee, and the dismissal of the Supreme Court's rulings, to be something that only 'liberals' revile [Andrew Jackson] for.

You didn't attribute that quote you were responding to and I cannot find it. Was someone really apologizing for Andrew Jackson? And claiming he was a conservative, no less? Whoever it was, please do not try to pawn off that ignorant bigoted populist on my party. "Liberals" of his own day--you know, people like Thomas Jefferson and John Adams--despised the man as a hate-filled ignoramus who appealed to the ignorant because he was one, also. Long after he was dead they still put his picture on the posters because they knew the "unwashed masses" that the o.p. mentioned would think he still was running for office.

In 1812 he was probably the only competent general in the army who was young enough to have the necessary energy to lead (the fact that he was not trying to lead morally indignant troops on an annexation mission into Canada probably helped, too,) but he needed a short leash. Once in the White House he was like a feral hound. Mark Twain lists him as one of the worst results of the War of 1812. He successfully increased the power of the central government (South Carolina nullification issue), but he literally destroyed the central bank because he didn't understand it and was afraid of it. He let his irrational hatred of England and the Indians affect all his decisions; the latter problem was solved at the end of a musket but he would have been happy to solve the former that way, too. But when he was overly troubled by "perplexing thoughts" he could usually drink enough wine and snake oil to clear his head.

You know that jackass that the Democratic party uses for its symbol? It is, quite literally, Andrew Jackson, who adopted it as his own to defy the taunts of his enemies.

- - - Okay, that was fun. I rarely get to do that.

[galdon]

Exactly the way sihnfahl read it, most likely.
"His assumption, again. He knows we have a Foolamancer... Perhaps he would rather believe that we have veiled our wounded units than that we bested him tactically."
She explains to Parson what Ansom's way of thinking could be, but nor her words, nor her face, seem to express anything regarding its potential, it's just an explanation. Nothing about probability, just Ansom's wish being the father of his thoughts.


As for Galdon, a few remarks. First of all, I doubt the Archons are warlords, probably just expensive mercenary moths that are pretty decent at fighting. Second, even if they are, the system isn't clear about warlord bonuses. If they stack, then it would be far too easy to construct an invincible group existing of way too many warlords, so most likely the main one counts. Which means +8 stack and +9 Zamussels, so +17.
Was good enough for her to take out a full-health dragon with some help from annoying birds, so this stack probably could take out at least half the A-dragons, even if we exclude Vinny and Ansom. But we'll find out, or not, soon enough I guess.

well, they are special units of some sort, special units tend to either be commanders or have unique bonuses, they arent moths though, they are just glowing. and i usually assosiate glowing with being important too.

something though, she was able to take out a full health dragon in one shot, so, would it even matter how wounded the dwagons are? she can still only kill one at a time, and the dwagons can take out a gwiffon in one shot, since jillian cant fly, she'd be out along with the gwiffons on the first round, and then the archons would be the only combat units left to finish with.

[DDL]

See you're right but you're missing my point. So far, I don't see Parson proving his worth as the Perfect Warlord. Of course you don't have to game like the Perfect Warlord to write about the Perfect Warlord just like you don't have write the greatest rock song ever to write a story about the greatest rock song ever. You set up the character. But my suspension of my disbelief is not a whim on mine. It is an emotional reaction to the story as it is...

...Here, the problem I'm having is the setup is good but in the follow through, Parson is not getting any real challenges. This is what his 3rd day on Erf and his 1st real battle and it would seem at this point that his won the war already. Excuse me while I yawn.

As far as I can see it's more a case of Parson bringing his 'tips and tricks of asymmetric warfare' to the table.

Previously, the impression I get is that Stanley has been playing it fairly cautious: not engaging unless he can get something with only 'acceptable losses' (c.f. the dwagon in exchange for capturing Jillian..again). When the forces are as wildly disparate as they are in this scenario, this only serves to delay the inevitable. It's not a winning tactic, it's a 'slow losing' tactic.

Parson, on the other hand, is prepared to do what Stanley isn't: risk virtually everything on the outcome of a single turn: if Ansom catches the wounded dwagons, Parson (and GK as a consequence) may be doomed...but if he doesn't, Parson has just massively hindered the Allied war-effort. Not destroyed, note: hindered.

Even if he gets through this turn intact, he's still in a losing position as it stands...but now he's in a MUCH BETTER losing position than he was before.

So relax: it ain't over yet by a long shot.

Personally, watching him develop ways to exploit the erfworld ruleset and come up with tactics previously unheard of (selective targetting followed by withdrawal appears to be entirely novel to the erfworlders, f'rinstance) is incredibly enjoyable. Sitting there thinking "A-HAH! I'm willing to bet schmuckers that the centre hex is empty!" and then finding yourself validated is a nice little thrill.

Possibly you're not into your wargames enough to fully appreciate this side of it, in which case I can sympathise: the wargame side of this is half the fun!

[Vreejack]

You took the words right from my mouth. Quite a few games allow you to retreat to any free hex. Usually you can't retreat to the hex the opposing units came from, but that wouldn't apply to stationary units. "No game would ever..." There are an awful lot of games out there...

Attackers cannot retreat to any hex. I defy you to name a single game outside of Erfworld in which attackers can retreat to any hex they like in the manner in which Vinny is proposing for option one (and probably the way Parson attacked the siege earlier in the turn.)

[galdon]

Attackers cannot retreat to any hex. I defy you to name a single game outside of Erfworld in which attackers can retreat to any hex they like in the manner in which Vinny is proposing for option one (and probably the way Parson attacked the siege earlier in the turn.)

in the rules of erfworld as has been stated, commanding units CAN choose not to engage the enemy if they enter the same hex, uncommanded units automatically attack. so what would happen is, vinny and ansom would choose not to engage, using the bats as a shield, and continue moving through.

[Vreejack]

Here, the problem I'm having is the setup is good but in the follow through, Parson is not getting any real challenges. This is what his 3rd day on Erf and his 1st real battle and it would seem at this point that his won the war already. Excuse me while I yawn.

Secondly, my interest in Erfworld is not based on how well Parson plays the rules which may or may not exist. Parson may be making great moves but then it's like watching a blown out game or a won end game in chess. If it is an endgame then change the channel or start a new game already. If Parson has beaten Ansom hands down, if Ansom boop is booped as booped can be booped, boop Ansom, start a new arc and get a fresh new anti-anti-hero in here but let's get some action going.

Excuse me? I don't think you have been paying attention. Ansom is about to destroy the three warlords Parson has in the field, dealing him a severe blow which may end the threat of Parson's dwagon attacks until the re-croaked warlords can be replaced (are we ready to see Parson in the field?). The only question is, how much will it cost Ansom? A lot of additional, unexpected plot twists can occur in that lake hex. Ansom might lose the pliers. Parson might recover them. Someone else might take them (Jillian? Archons?) but whatever happens Parson's dwagon flights will be crippled for a while. That is, after all, Ansom's purpose, and he knows exactly what he is facing in that hex.

I am willing to suspend [dis]belief for a looong time here as long as it's wooorth it.

What are you having trouble believing? I made the comment earlier that is was the inherent self-consistency of this story that made the results so predictable. You seem to be saying that the results are predictable but unbelievable; this is a contradiction. Besides, your predictions are wrong as I stated above. There is a plot singularity approaching beyond which it is impossible to speculate because quite literally anything can happen, but Parson is certainly not going to run roughshod over Ansom for the rest of the strip.

Who's this we? I tend to over-analyze literary elements not gaming elements because, as I said, I'm not the gaming master. I'm not a master of literary analysis either. I'm more venting at the fact that, yes, "we waited longer between the release of page 61-62 than Parson Gotti has had since he arrived in Erfworld", but also that we just got essentially a continuation of the previous cliffhanger and that it looks like to me that the cliffhanger won't be resolved until at least page 64 if page 63 is filled with reactions and expositions to 61-62.

So, you are complaining about having to wait? I cannot help thinking that you should pay a little more attention to the rather minimalist "reactions and expositions." Rob seems to tell us just enough to keep us from becoming hopelessly lost, while Jamie gives us just enough expressive illustration to understand what the characters are feeling, without which their actions would be incomprehensible.

Page 63 might have some reactions from the GK crowd, especially since Stanley's opinion of Parson is so critical, but I am pretty sure an important plot crux is rapidly approaching and that there will be a lot of hackety-slash-chop-chop. Yes, you have to wait for it. If they stick it at the beginning then there is not much story left to tell.

[DDL]

Excuse me? I don't think you have been paying attention. Ansom is about to destroy the three warlords Parson has in the field, dealing him a severe blow which may end the threat of Parson's dwagon attacks until the re-croaked warlords can be replaced (are we ready to see Parson in the field?). The only question is, how much will it cost Ansom? A lot of additional, unexpected plot twists can occur in that lake hex. Ansom might lose the pliers. Parson might recover them. Someone else might take them (Jillian? Archons?) but whatever happens Parson's dwagon flights will be crippled for a while. That is, after all, Ansom's purpose, and he knows exactly what he is facing in that hex.

Surely not a foregone conclusion, though?

Ansom MAY be about to destroy the three warlords. He might not even find them. Even if he does, we don't yet know how combat with warlords on both sides is directed...there's a lot that's up in the air. The impression I get is that Parson has some sort of ace up his sleeve...and I'm mightly interested to find out what that is.

[Vreejack]

Arroooo? [url=http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0021.html]Parson know his best long range hope is/was to make it costly enough to save the city, but he's still willing to give Klog #3's "Ender's Game - Fool's Mate" option a try. "What about pegging Ansom himself? Would that be checkmate?"

He's pretty close to that right now, but it's curious that Ansom seems to be oblivious to it. There was a whole panel showing his nonplussed reaction to that suggestion. In a way this is a strength, since--to take the chess analogy further--by keeping the opponent's king in check you have him at your mercy. But when Parson shouts "check" Ansom seems not to hear it, so Parson is deprived of a useful technique, namely fear.

On Vinny and Ansom

I note that Vinny is not the tactical genius many of us were taking him for since option three is frankly quite obvious to anyone who has ever gamed or fought a battle. Vinny's strengths may lie in basic skeptical nature and his ability to compensate for Ansom's blind spots, but given Ansom's lack of military intel he has actually done fairly well (witness the ten previous successful and successive city conquests.) I gather that had he known about the change in Stanley's leadership structure he would have been more cautious and circumspect. How long is it going to take him to figure it out, though? He's practically tripped over the fact of Parson's existence a few times already. What does Jillian know about Parson? What will she tell him? What will he do about it?

Edit:

Surely not a foregone conclusion, though?

Ansom MAY be about to destroy the three warlords. He might not even find them. Even if he does, we don't yet know how combat with warlords on both sides is directed...there's a lot that's up in the air. The impression I get is that Parson has some sort of ace up his sleeve...and I'm mightly interested to find out what that is.

I think so, too, based on some of his previous statements, but I suspect that we simply lack enough information to guess. People have mentioned spidews, for example (whatever good they would do in a water hex) but I cannot see anything in the story that suggests a specific strategy. Don't forget that Parson does not know about the pliers, otherwise the "hunt" force would not be all that threatening. My only prediction is that Ansom will find the uncroaked warlords (how can possibly miss them miss them now?) and destroy at least one and possibly all of them.

[tomaO2]

Arroooo? This dicussion? What part are you missing in "But we don't know the weakest spot in the outer walls, so we will hit it from all directions, and pour through the first breach we get."?

Okay, ya got me. I didn't read carefully enough and glanced over that quote but that doesn't mean that Ansom has to go underground or that by going underground he would need more then 6 to 1 odds to win. He would appear to still have at least 3 times what he needs after the losses he's been suffering lately.

We don't know enough about how the combat works. Parson might be wrong with that assumption (seeing how he's new to all this as well). Ansom still has battering rams and stuff, after all..

[Kasey Chang]

The "problem" with the HUNT option, assuming "hunt" is after the 3 uncroaked warlords, is a very significant one:

Ansom has NO IDEA where the 3 warlords are. He got fooled into going after the fort hex, and he wasted MORE moves by heading INTO the fort hex to make absolutely sure there are no veiled units inside it.

Unless they suddenly pull a rabbit out of the hat (i.e. by revealing a new ability that the Arkenplier has, like it can be used to find undead in a hex direction) the only chance Ansom has is to use Jillian's gwiffons and Dora's Archons as a suicidal recon by force. J-force enter a hex, hit a dwagon. Other dwagons, unled, attack a random stack in J-force. The J-force then moves on to another hex until they can see the warlords, or run out of moves, or run out of units.

Further analysis implies that

1) Ansom and Vinnie have enough moves to get back... probably, unless their move can be reduced by damage. Vinnie says... we can make it, probably. Either that, or he meant they have the moves, but maybe not the hit points.

2) Previous comments on leaving Gwiffons and Archons as reserve as the only other units that can reach the hex would suggest that the recon by force would use up most of J-force's moves as well, perhaps not as much as 90%, as the gumps and forest elves, but probably in the range of 60-75%, leaving very little "loiter time", if you will, to locate and attack the warlords.

[DDL]

He knows the warlords AREN'T in the ring of dwagons surrounding him, at least (yay for Bat-cams!). So the only 'suicide recon' involved will be if Jillian and co. actually stroll into the lake hex where all the other dwagons are. And that, I presume, is the idea ANYWAY.

[sihnfahl]

Unless they suddenly pull a rabbit out of the hat (i.e. by revealing a new ability that the Arkenplier has, like it can be used to find undead in a hex direction) the only chance Ansom has is to use Jillian's gwiffons and Dora's Archons as a suicidal recon by force. J-force enter a hex, hit a dwagon. Other dwagons, unled, attack a random stack in J-force. The J-force then moves on to another hex until they can see the warlords, or run out of moves, or run out of units.

First, how did they become Dora's Archons? She's a 2. Webinar (who's with her) is a 5. If they were assigned to a commander that's Not Jillian, it'd be Webinar.
Second, it is recon by force, but not on the dwagon fort hexes. They're going to play Blind Man's Bluff. Blunder around the hexes near the dwagon fort and hope to find the dwagons. Course, that means the moment they 'tag' the dwagon hex, the dwagons might just... tag back.

1) Ansom and Vinnie have enough moves to get back... probably, unless their move can be reduced by damage. Vinnie says... we can make it, probably. Either that, or he meant they have the moves, but maybe not the hit points.

If they didn't have the move to get back, he wouldn't have suggested it - but only if they go through, instead of around. That intimates that Ansom and Vinny have 4, maybe 5, move left. If the dwagons hit them instead of the bats... they probably don't have the health.

2) Previous comments on leaving Gwiffons and Archons as reserve as the only other units that can reach the hex would suggest that the recon by force would use up most of J-force's moves as well, perhaps not as much as 90%, as the gumps and forest elves, but probably in the range of 60-75%, leaving very little "loiter time", if you will, to locate and attack the warlords.

But does Ansom have much of a choice now? If he runs back, he loses the siege. If he hunkers down, he loses the siege.
He doesn't have much choice in his eyes to save the siege - he commands Jillian to try to find the dwagons. Either she finds them and SOMEHOW succeeds in dusting the warlords - siege is (mostly) saved... or, if she doesn't find them.... well, he would lose the siege anyway. He's grasping at the only straws he can.

[Krellen]

I mean..yeah! Yeah, you idiots: Why did you make us wait all that time for our free, entertaining, lovingly illustrated, free webcomic? Also, did I mention free?

*sigh* Some people, eh?

Why is there this assumption that just because something is free means it should be free of criticism? Did I make any mention whatsoever about revoking my patronage? Obviously not, because I'm not patronising anything - it's free! But that doesn't mean I can't say it wasn't worth the wait, or that I am dissatisfied with the pacing. Rob himself invites criticism, because he knows it's better to have it out than have it brew, especially if there is a point in the future when you do want to make money from a project.

This strip was not worth a two-week delay. It did not resolve any cliffhangers or answer many questions. While I understand that things come up, this one specific strip does nothing to alleviate dramatic tension built by the long delay. It's a dissatisfying strip; after such a long stretch of time, it's only natural to expect some sort of resolution, which this strip had none of.

It's mind-boggling to me why people think that just because I haven't (yet) paid money for something that means I need to just shut up and take whatever I get. I'm not begging here, so I can do all the choosing I like.

[Letifer]

Attackers cannot retreat to any hex. I defy you to name a single game outside of Erfworld in which attackers can retreat to any hex they like in the manner in which Vinny is proposing for option one (and probably the way Parson attacked the siege earlier in the turn.)

Cyber Empire (Steel Empire for the Europeans out there). Anyway, as a war gamer I have to say I don't find that portion of the comic very compelling either. I know Parson can only be as good a strategist as the authors, so I don't expect god like powers. However, I have trouble enjoying the "guessing the master plan" game when we know so little about the rules that every "twist" is really just us finding out about a rule we didn't know before. The war gaming portion just feels contrived.

That said, I don't mean to be all negative about the comic. I quite enjoy the art and story and plan to continue reading it (thanks to Piperka). Keep up the good work and perhaps when we know all the rules the war gaming will be fun too.

[DDL]

This strip was not worth a two-week delay. It did not resolve any cliffhangers or answer many questions. While I understand that things come up, this one specific strip does nothing to alleviate dramatic tension built by the long delay. It's a dissatisfying strip; after such a long stretch of time, it's only natural to expect some sort of resolution, which this strip had none of.

You make it sound like they deliberately postponed the strip. Like "Yeah, this is an awesome place to make people wait for an extra long time!"


This does not appear to be the case: they would've released it on time and in schedule with all the other strips, but couldn't because of all the convention-related hassle.

In the light of this, you just come across as unjustifiably petulant. No offense. You're entitled to be dissatisfied, but not for the reasons you seem to be citing.

I mean, would you rather they just condensed four entire pages into one, just to satisfy your craving for instant resolution?

I'd rather read the story at the pacing they intend, no matter how much time it takes.

[Michael Chandra]

Plus this comic isn't supposed to have a big change in every comic, since it apparently is meant for bookform. And having a comic where plans are shaped by Ansom, was to be expected, since he'd have to do that and he wouldn't just go down without trying something. So even before this comic came out, it was already rather clear it wouldn't be that thrilling.

[ag30476]

As far as I can see it's more a case of Parson bringing his 'tips and tricks of asymmetric warfare' to the table.

Yes, Parson bringing his 'tips and tricks of asymmetric warfare' is the power of the Perfect Warlord. I accept that. But watching the Perfect Warlord playing against a supposedly bad opponent is as exciting as watching Kasparov play me in chess.

Previously, the impression I get is that Stanley has been playing it fairly cautious: not engaging unless he can get something with only 'acceptable losses' (c.f. the dwagon in exchange for capturing Jillian..again). When the forces are as wildly disparate as they are in this scenario, this only serves to delay the inevitable. It's not a winning tactic, it's a 'slow losing' tactic.

But we are not seeing that right now because we are not seeing what the coalition can do. Instead we see:

1. Parson claims he can "turn the whole course of the battle for no cost" after learning of Ansom's "fog of war".

2. Ansom and his warlords agreed that they had to go after the dwagons because in the columns current posture they could not defend the seige units against the dwagons on the next turn. And they only had limited forces to use against the dwagons.

3. Parson claims Ansom's "boops are in a vice".

5. Vinny explain how the coalition has to either (option 1) escape protect the seige as best they can though they never could protect the seige well (see 1 above) and the escape would leave the forest units vulnerable; or (option 2) give up the seige to protect the forest units with the stand.

Either way, next round Ansom is likely to loose most of the rest of the seige and possibly the forest units. It may be even possible that Ansom and the Arkenpliers are captured. Though this leave the coalition with still more force than needed to take GK, it would force the coalition to use the tunnels only. And with the column still 4 days...turns...away from encamping at the city, Parson has another 3-4 days of "assymetric" warfare to practice against the column. To sum it up: it don't look good for the coalition.

But wait! What's this, there is an option 3??? Yes, but we have to wait for that...

Parson, on the other hand, is prepared to do what Stanley isn't: risk virtually everything on the outcome of a single turn: if Ansom catches the wounded dwagons, Parson (and GK as a consequence) may be doomed...

No he isn't. Parson has very wisely minimized his risks.

but if he doesn't, Parson has just massively hindered the Allied war-effort. Not destroyed, note: hindered.

So you agree? It don't look good for the coalition? Or does "massively hindered the Allied war-effort" mean something else.

Even if he gets through this turn intact, he's still in a losing position as it stands...but now he's in a MUCH BETTER losing position than he was before.

Assumptions...assumptions...I am not assuming anything about Erf as a strategy game. I am talking about Erf as a story. My assumptions, if you had read my previous posts, are that as a story it has to turn around. We have to see the colation, whether with or without Ansom, effectively counter what Parson is doing, that is put up a good fight. And I'm saying that right now we are waiting for the shoe to drop.

So relax: it ain't over yet by a long shot.

Relax? I'm posting this from work my friend.

Personally, watching him develop ways to exploit the erfworld ruleset and come up with tactics previously unheard of (selective targetting followed by withdrawal appears to be entirely novel to the erfworlders, f'rinstance) is incredibly enjoyable. Sitting there thinking "A-HAH! I'm willing to bet schmuckers that the centre hex is empty!" and then finding yourself validated is a nice little thrill.

Possibly you're not into your wargames enough to fully appreciate this side of it, in which case I can sympathise: the wargame side of this is half the fun!

Congrats! You deduced correctly. I prefer to get that "A-HAH!" feeling by beating an opponent in a game myself. From a comic, I want a good story, a good joke, and good art. But to each his own.

[ag30476]

Excuse me? I don't think you have been paying attention. Ansom is about to destroy the three warlords Parson has in the field, dealing him a severe blow which may end the threat of Parson's dwagon attacks until the re-croaked warlords can be replaced (are we ready to see Parson in the field?).

Really? Your sure about that? Cause if I took a poll of forum posters, I'd think the majority would think completely the opposite, that Ansom is booped.

Either way, it doesn't matter to me. The story is already written. There is already a winner and loser and the authors know who it is. I'm just complaining about how the outcome is revealed. And my chief complaint for the last few posts has been that the coalition has not been seen doing much. As I posted above, here is a rehash of what we have seen in the comic for the last 9 pages:
1. Parson claims he can "turn the whole course of the battle for no cost" after learning of Ansom's "fog of war".

2. Ansom and his warlords agreed that they had to go after the dwagons because in the columns current posture they could not defend the seige units against the dwagons on the next turn. And they only had limited forces to use against the dwagons.

3. Parson claims Ansom's "boops are in a vice".

5. Vinny explain how the coalition has to either (option 1) escape protect the seige as best they can though they never could protect the seige well (see 1 above) and the escape would leave the forest units vulnerable; or (option 2) give up the seige to protect the forest units with the stand.

The only question is, how much will it cost Ansom? A lot of additional, unexpected plot twists can occur in that lake hex. Ansom might lose the pliers. Parson might recover them. Someone else might take them (Jillian? Archons?) but whatever happens Parson's dwagon flights will be crippled for a while. That is, after all, Ansom's purpose, and he knows exactly what he is facing in that hex.

Fine. I'm all for plot twists. Let's have one. Right now. It's been almost 50 pages since the last one.

What are you having trouble believing?

That the coalition can put up a good fight. That is what I have been saying consistently for the past few posts.

I made the comment earlier that is was the inherent self-consistency of this story that made the results so predictable.

Inherent self-consistency? What's that? Either every story has that or it doesn't have it. And what does a story's self-consistency have to do with my suspension of disbelief?

And before you said the story can have plot twists we don't expect. Now you sayit can be predictable. Which is it? I'm not just picking on you. I'm just not following you in this argument of the predictability of the story.

If you had read and understood my previous, though admittedly long winded...I type fast...posts, you would have seen where I have said that a story arc can both be predictable...in terms that we know how it will end...and unpredictable...in that we don't know how it will get to the end...But so what?

You seem to be saying that the results are predictable but unbelievable; this is a contradiction.

No. You are saying the story ...plot details to be specific... are predictable. You predicted the empty hex.

I am not saying the story is believable. It's unbelievable. It's a story about a guy who gets zapped into a table top war game. That's unbelievable. That's why it's called a fantasy story.

I am saying that my suspension of disbelief is wavering. Suspension of disbelief has nothing to do with whether a story is believable. Rather, quoting Wiki, "Suspension of disbelief is an aesthetic theory intended to characterize people's relationships to art. It refers to the alleged willingness of a reader or viewer to accept as true the premises of a work of fiction, even if they are fantastic, impossible, or contradictory. It also refers to the willingness of the audience to overlook the limitations of a medium, so that these do not interfere with the acceptance of those premises. According to the theory, suspension of disbelief is a quid pro quo: the audience tacitly agrees to provisionally suspend their judgment in exchange for the promise of entertainment."

Besides, your predictions are wrong as I stated above. There is a plot singularity approaching beyond which it is impossible to speculate because quite literally anything can happen, but Parson is certainly not going to run roughshod over Ansom for the rest of the strip.

So we are not in disagreement then. Funny how these forums go. I start by arguing against people who think Parson is going to run roughshod over Ansom by saying that Parson is not going to run roughshod over Ansom and end up arguing with someone who says that I'm wrong that Parson is not going to run roughshod over Ansom because Parson is not going to run roughshod over Ansom

So, you are complaining about having to wait?

Are you complaining that I'm complaining? I have a right to complain!...at least until the Mod tells me otherwise.

Page 63 might have some reactions from the GK crowd, especially since Stanley's opinion of Parson is so critical, but I am pretty sure an important plot crux is rapidly approaching and that there will be a lot of hackety-slash-chop-chop. Yes, you have to wait for it. If they stick it at the beginning then there is not much story left to tell.

Again we are in vicious agreement here. But just in case there is a misunderstanding...It's not so much that I want hackety-slash-chop-chop, I want hackety-slash-plot-plot-plot.

[ag30476]

Why is there this assumption that just because something is free means it should be free of criticism? ...
It's mind-boggling to me why people think that just because I haven't (yet) paid money for something that means I need to just shut up and take whatever I get. I'm not begging here, so I can do all the choosing I like.

Well said!

[skyk]

Despite sort of hoping that they're going to hunt Stanley, I suspect it's a lot more conventional "find the wounded dragons and mash them with our reserve".

I don't think I know the game mechanics well enough to say what Ansom should be doing, but it strikes me that he'd be pretty well positioned to just attrit the dragon units regardless of how the hunt goes - the "meatgrinder" solution isn't an elegant one but seems likely to leave Stanley out of troops way before Ansom and friends would be depleted.

I'm sure Parson has thought of that - and I guess he's just been relying on Ansom to try and take the minimal-casualty route rather than sacrificing more of his forces to remove more of Stanley's dragons.

As an aside - and this might have already been mentioned - I gather the reason Ansom moved into the center hex to try and find the "veiled units" is because he's a command unit? And commanders can perhaps see veiled units where normal troops can't? (a la certain RTS'es, I think starcraft did this)

What I don't get is - if you could veil the units in the first place, why would you telegraph where they were at by putting a ring of unveiled units around them? I guess I'm missing something.

[ChowGuy]

First, how did they become Dora's Archons? She's a 2. Webinar (who's with her) is a 5. If they were assigned to a commander that's Not Jillian, it'd be Webinar.

They're Charlie's Archons, and Charlie was contracted by Ansom. If they're to take orders from anyone, it's from him. As for their original assignment, they were told to report to a given hex "to provide escort three commanders and their entourage." Now that's a funny word, escort. the dictionary has it as "a group of persons, or a single person, accompanying another or others for protection, guidance, or courtesy: An escort of sailors accompanied the queen.." As if they weren't sent as "backup" or "reinforcement" or to be "teh uber l337 Dwagon killars" but to provide ancillary services to the commanders.

Second, it is recon by force, but not on the dwagon fort hexes. They're going to play Blind Man's Bluff. Blunder around the hexes near the dwagon fort and hope to find the dwagons.

Why would they do that when they could like, I don't know, use the bats maybe? We know the ground units don't have the move to go anywhere, but where does anyone get the idea that Vinie's remaining bats do not? I'd be very surprised if their 22 move, while "crap" compared to Jillian's 52 or a Dwagon's 56-ish is still not greater then an Elf or Gumps. When Ansom refers to the strike force as being "out of move" he means the effective fighting force as a whole, not every unit in it individually. Now, he's even saying "you, me, and the bats" have some move left. Not to mention that the last we saw of the bats, they had not only not yet entered the center, they had been left outside the weak hex. If they're still there (why would they not be) then we know they have to have at least 3-hex move left if they can reach the far side.

Plus, that's only the bats Vinnie brought with him. If they didn't know where the DoD was initially (and we must presume they didn't) they had to scout along a significant front to find it. Either some of those bats that missed it may still be out there orbiting, with plenty of move left ready to resume the search. Or the initial scouts might have been pulled back to join with the rest of the flock, in which case its likely that there are bats there, never dispatched in that initial search, with move in excess of their comrades. Or some bats may never have left the column at all. None of those are "rabbits" and the term "The Hunt" need not equal "The Search." But if you'd like futher speculation on the possible implications of either of the above you can find it in another thread elsewhere.

[Scientivore]

What I don't get is - if you could veil the units in the first place, why would you telegraph where they were at by putting a ring of unveiled units around them? I guess I'm missing something.

You wouldn't. Like Parson said, Ansom thinks that Stanley is stupid. If Stanley does something that looks really, really clever -- like placing a ring of dwagons around an empty hex to fake him out -- then it's easier for Ansom to believe that Stanley actually did something really, really dumb, like both ringing and veiling a hex.

They're Charlie's Archons, and Charlie was contracted by Ansom. If they're to take orders from anyone, it's from him. As for their original assignment, they were told to report to a given hex "to provide escort three commanders and their entourage." Now that's a funny word, escort. the dictionary has it as "a group of persons, or a single person, accompanying another or others for protection, guidance, or courtesy: An escort of sailors accompanied the queen.." As if they weren't sent as "backup" or "reinforcement" or to be "teh uber l337 Dwagon killars" but to provide ancillary services to the commanders.

The best speculative explanation that I've read for that was:

Spoiler

Show

Maybe Charlie's Archons are infiltration experts who were going to escort Ansom, the incursion group and fliers to Gobwin Knob itself where they would stage a daring rescue of Jillian. Ansom said for someone to get him Charlie all the way back on page 34, when he found out that she'd been captured, not after she "escaped".

[ChowGuy]

The best speculative explanation that I've read for that was:

Spoiler

Show

Maybe Charlie's Archons are infiltration experts who were going to escort Ansom, the incursion group and fliers to Gobwin Knob itself where they would stage a daring rescue of Jillian. Ansom said for someone to get him Charlie all the way back on page 34, when he found out that she'd been captured, not after she "escaped".

*cough*here*cough*

But that was before we see Ansom calling for "The Hunt" so the conditions have altered slightly. Both are still viable options based on the same foreshadowings however.

[berrew]

Yes, Parson bringing his 'tips and tricks of asymmetric warfare' is the power of the Perfect Warlord. I accept that. But watching the Perfect Warlord playing against a supposedly bad opponent is as exciting as watching Kasparov play me in chess.

....

Really? Your sure about that? Cause if I took a poll of forum posters, I'd think the majority would think completely the opposite, that Ansom is booped.

Just want to mention two things here. First is that he's not playing against a bad opponent. Several times, it's been pointed out that Ansom has a good grasp of tactics and seems (to me) to be a reasonable leader. What Parson is doing is what the "perfect warlord" of the US, Robert E. Lee, did - he's running a psychological strategic war against his opponent, in addition to using good tactical employments. Second - even if everything goes his way, and he kills all the siege units, Ansom and Vinny and gets the Arkenpliers - Jetstone is still in an immensely favorable tactical position, with enough firepower to finish Parson's side off handily. This is only "the little battle", regardless of its outcome - and he's risking the bulk of Stanley's forces to do so. This tightrope is a thin one indeed.

Parson must have a run of successful or nearly successful engagements, or it's all over. First, because he will be disbanded/sacrificed by Stanley, second because without something amazing happening, Gobwin Knob has absolutely no hope of winning the war against even a fairly incompetent opponent. That phrase of Xykon that we've seen, "In battle, there's always a level of force against which no tactics can succeed", is the line we are firmly pressed against, and Parson will have to pull a number of rabbits out of his hat to beat that. The trick of the authors is to make sure that the opponents are intelligent, to make the story interesting - and, IMO, that's the case here.

[berrew]

I'm more venting at the fact that, yes, "we waited longer between the release of page 61-62 than Parson Gotti has had since he arrived in Erfworld", but also that we just got essentially a continuation of the previous cliffhanger and that it looks like to me that the cliffhanger won't be resolved until at least page 64 if page 63 is filled with reactions and expositions to 61-62.

Sorry - I didn't make my point clearly :(. What I meant by this is that one thing to keep in mind is that these are events that we have analyzed for weeks, with all the advantages that brings, while the characters in the story only had a few hours to analyze the situation and come up with a viable plan. I suspect that for someone who reads this in book format, or comes to the strip later, a lot of the points that are hashed out on the forums will simply not occur or matter nearly as much to someone who reads all the pages in one setting. That was my real point - hope that it's more obvious here. That makes authoring in this kind of medium a real challenge - the story needs to succeed in both serial form, and in toto.