Sending question: Why english?

[keybounce]

So we've seen lots of people with trouble fitting the 25 word limit in english.

Why not use a different language? Spanish, for example, lets you combine the subject and verb (and often objects) into a single word. German, from what I understand, lets you put an entire sentence into a single word.

I mean, it's not like you have a 140 charac

[Peelee]

So we've seen lots of people with trouble fitting the 25 word limit in english.

Why not use a different language? Spanish, for example, lets you combine the subject and verb (and often objects) into a single word. German, from what I understand, lets you put an entire sentence into a single word.

I mean, it's not like you have a 140 charac

Common is, I assume, the native language of the group. Germany based gaming group? German language is Common. OotS has English as Common, so English is used.

Nope, I'm wrong. See Grey Wolf for not bring wrong.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

So we've seen lots of people with trouble fitting the 25 word limit in english.

Why not use a different language? Spanish, for example, lets you combine the subject and verb (and often objects) into a single word. German, from what I understand, lets you put an entire sentence into a single word.

I mean, it's not like you have a 140 charac

Because the universe uses the English rule book. It's the same reason why they can't abuse the "give a one word command" spell (which in the Spanish rule book specifically says to use English grammar rules - i.e. "mátale" ["kill that guy"] is not one word, where this spell is concerned).

GW

[dancrilis]

So we've seen lots of people with trouble fitting the 25 word limit in english.

Why not use a different language? Spanish, for example, lets you combine the subject and verb (and often objects) into a single word. German, from what I understand, lets you put an entire sentence into a single word.

I mean, it's not like you have a 140 charac

It isn't english it is Common.

Further it is possible that all languages are related to common and that have direct word for word translations, thereby ensuring that no language would offer an advantage for the spell over common.
Equally possible is that Common became the common tongue as it is most efficient and thereby that all other languages would be less useful for the Sending spell.

[hroþila]

Why not use a different language? Spanish, for example, lets you combine the subject and verb (and often objects) into a single word.

Usually, Spanish takes up around 30% more words than English. This is a well known fact in translating/interpreting circles. :)

[NerdyKris]

Has there been a situation outside of the joke with Nale where it would have made a difference? I can't remember any scenario where the word limit caused a communication problem. There would be no purpose to utilizing a more efficient language, and would only add more information that would need to be explained to the reader.

[dancrilis]

Has there been a situation outside of the joke with Nale where it would have made a difference? I can't remember any scenario where the word limit caused a communication problem. There would be no purpose to utilizing a more efficient language, and would only add more information that would need to be explained to the reader.

The prison scene with Durkon and Roy.

[DaggerPen]

So we've seen lots of people with trouble fitting the 25 word limit in english.

Why not use a different language? Spanish, for example, lets you combine the subject and verb (and often objects) into a single word. German, from what I understand, lets you put an entire sentence into a single word.

I mean, it's not like you have a 140 charac

What is this "Spanish" of which you speak? I have never heard of it before.

In-game, they speak Common. On a meta level, Common lines up more or less exactly with English, being as that's the author's native language. Given that he won't sign off on any fan translations as official due to being unable to verify their quality himself, I'd hazard a guess that he doesn't speak Spanish or German well enough for that.

The prison scene with Durkon and Roy.

... no? They made it in exactly the right number of words - heck, Roy had two left for "Hurry up". The problem wasn't a lack of words - the problem was that Durkon only had so many prepared and tried to respond to Roy to reassure him that he had one left.

[NerdyKris]

And it was a back and forth conversation. The number of words was irrelevant, since each sending and reply were a response to the previous statement, if dancrilis is referring to the fact that he needed four sendings.

[Joerg]

German, from what I understand, lets you put an entire sentence into a single word.

German can't do that any more than English. It just combines substantives in special cases, usually if one thing is defined more specifically by another thing (e.g. a robe for a mage -- eine Magierrobe). English also has some words which do that, e.g. broadsword, but German can form these kind of words on the fly. Then, people make fun of it by defining a thing ever more specific, thus creating amalgams of six or seven words (prominent example: the hat of a captain of the society for steam boat cruising on the Danube -- Donaudampfschifffahrtsgesellschaftskapitänsmütze).

[dancrilis]

The problem wasn't a lack of words - the problem was that Durkon only had so many prepared and tried to respond to Roy to reassure him that he had one left.

And if he had the words left to assure Roy without needing to use that one than he would still have had one left.

And it was a back and forth conversation. The number of words was irrelevant, since each sending and reply were a response to the previous statement, if dancrilis is referring to the fact that he needed four sendings.

You said 'I can't remember any scenario where the word limit caused a communication problem. There would be no purpose to utilizing a more efficient language ...'

A more efficient language could have reduced the amount of sendings needed and allowed Durkon to use another sending as desired.

I am still unsure if a more efficient language than Common actually exists.

[Jasdoif]

And if he had the words left to assure Roy without needing to use that one than he would still have had one left.

I don't think so, actually. Each message and response was a complete and distinct transition in the conversation, and sending sends the twenty-five word message and then the recipient can reply; so without altering the conversation (by Durkon not using his last sending to tell Roy he had his last sending, or Durkon agreeing to break Roy out despite his reservations, or Roy not pushing back the first time Durkon said he couldn't break them out) it'd take at least the same number of sendings regardless of the language or word count used.

[dancrilis]

I don't think so, actually. Each message and response was a complete and distinct transition in the conversation, and sending sends the twenty-five word message and then the recipient can reply; so without altering the conversation (by Durkon not using his last sending to tell Roy he had his last sending, or Durkon agreeing to break Roy out despite his reservations, or Roy not pushing back the first time Durkon said he couldn't break them out) it'd take at least the same number of sendings regardless of the language or word count used.

You are right ... I retract the prison scene as an example.

[denthor]

In my current game Spanish is the common my character speaks giant( in the playground ) as well I pick a language and send to the player I want to send to.

Since everyone at the table speaks English guess what language it comes from before the universal translator kicks in

[An Enemy Spy]

The joke isn't that 25 words isn't enough to get a message across, it's that Nale just can't stop himself from going on long-winded blustering monologues and therefore can't get across even a simple message without having to use up several Sending scrolls. Outside of him, nobody has ever had a problem with Sending.

[Onyavar]

So we've seen lots of people with trouble fitting the 25 word limit in english.

Why not use a different language? Spanish, for example, lets you combine the subject and verb (and often objects) into a single word. German, from what I understand, lets you put an entire sentence into a single word.

I mean, it's not like you have a 140 charac

To the contrary: German sentences are generally structured the same as English, it's just that the words are longer. A message can't be contracted into a word, no.

25 words in English: Translations of most books need more space than the english original. As hroþila mentions for Spanish, this is a well-known fact also among German translators.
25 words in German: Übersetzungen der meisten Bücher brauchen mehr Platz als im Englischen Original. Wie hroþila für's Spanische erwähnte, ist dies ein wohlbekanntes Phänomen auch unter Deutschen Übersetzern.
The exact same meaning could have been put shorter, 16 words in German:
Viele Buchübersetzungen sind länger als im Englischen. Was hroþila zu Spanisch sagt, gilt auch für Deutsch.
That can be done in English, too. Also only 16 words: Many book-translations are longer than in English. What hroþila said about Spanish, also applies to German.

In all languages it is possible to compress messages into a shorter version: Using abbreviations, contracting words, violating grammar. For an example of "Fitting a complex situation into 25 words", just take the sending of 603:
"From Haley: Alive, in danger in Greysky, with Belkar, Celia. Roy's Body stolen, Thieves Guild attacking. Come ASAP. Bring diamonds for Resurrection(s). Love to Elan."

The above is SMS/Twitter English, the proper version would be in 50 words, the double amount.
"I am conveying a message from Haley Starshine. She is currently in Greysky, alive but in danger. Roy's body has been stolen, the Thieves Guild is attacking us. Come as soon as possible. Please bring diamonds for at least one resurrection. She asked me to express her love to Elan."

In short: Sending is just the art of being snappy.

[Vinyadan]

Latin would probably be the most synthetic language that is widely known in the West.

"Valesne?" "Valeo".
"Are you all right?" "I'm fine."

"Morituri sumusne?" "Sumus."
"Are we going to die?" "Yes, we are."

"Quot verba sunt tibi?" "XXIV".
"How many words do you have?" "24".

"The horse will be stolen." "Equus rapietur."

"Once you will have stolen the horse, we will escape". "*** equum raperis, fugiamus."

[SirKazum]

Usually, Spanish takes up around 30% more words than English. This is a well known fact in translating/interpreting circles. :)

I'm speaking from a knowledge of Portuguese (though it's got very similar grammar and lexicon to Spanish), but AFAIK, it's not a question of word count. Common translator wisdom holds that Portuguese (and presumably Spanish) text is 30% longer than English, for a sufficiently large block of typical textbook text. This is due to our languages having larger word lengths in average. (So, when keeping the same page numbering is important, e.g. for referencing, either the book has to be physically larger, or the font smaller.) Word count itself should be more or less similar, perhaps even smaller due to ellipses and contractions, but that doesn't matter much to typography so it's not usually talked about.

As for Sending, I've always held that it doesn't make a lot of sense for magic to be capable of transmitting different amounts of information depending on stuff like abbreviations, language choice, word choice and the like. I like to think that Sending can transmit spoken information roughly equivalent to what a typical English-language message with 25 words or less can convey (perhaps using somewhat telegraphic/clipped phrasing), and not worry too much about it otherwise.

[hagnat]

you guys are overthinking over a simple answer:
they use "english" (common, actually) because that's the language both understand.

it would be the same thing over asking why are we sending messages here in english, a language different than the one most of us use in a regular basis. We use it because its a common language to most of us, irregardless of where we came from.

[hroþila]

I'm speaking from a knowledge of Portuguese (though it's got very similar grammar and lexicon to Spanish), but AFAIK, it's not a question of word count. Common translator wisdom holds that Portuguese (and presumably Spanish) text is 30% longer than English, for a sufficiently large block of typical textbook text. This is due to our languages having larger word lengths in average. (So, when keeping the same page numbering is important, e.g. for referencing, either the book has to be physically larger, or the font smaller.) Word count itself should be more or less similar, perhaps even smaller due to ellipses and contractions, but that doesn't matter much to typography so it's not usually talked about.

No, it applies to the word count too, not just to the length of the text. This becomes quite clear when you discuss payment - if you can charge per word in the target text rather than in the source text, by all means, do so! You'll make significantly more money (which is also why most everybody pays per word in the target text these days, alas).

The ubiquity of compounding in English and its less frequent use of articles are two key factors in bringing the total word count down compared to Romance languages.

[SirKazum]

No, it applies to the word count too, not just to the length of the text. This becomes quite clear when you discuss payment - if you can charge per word in the target text rather than in the source text, by all means, do so! You'll make significantly more money (which is also why most everybody pays per word in the target text these days, alas).

The ubiquity of compounding in English and its less frequent use of articles are two key factors in bringing the total word count down compared to Romance languages.

Huh, I've only ever heard about total text length, and heard it linked to word length. But we do use articles more frequently than you, so I guess that makes sense.

Actually, this talk of compounds brings to mind more questions about what counts as "one" word. Say, for example, "bat" in French is "chauve-souris". Is that one or two words? Semantically it's one word (compounded from two semantically separate words), orthographically... it looks debatable to me. Also, I think at least Rich Burlew in the comics with Sending is counting, say, "I'll" as one word (haven't checked though), but one might make the case that it's really two words, with two semantic components, written and spoken like it was one word. That's not even getting into languages like Chinese, which is really fond of compounds, and usually writes without spaces, so you're never quite sure where one word ends and another begins. (Is "hen hao kan", i.e. "very good-looking" or "beautiful", one, two or three words? Those three words occur commonly enough together that one might make the case it's a compound word, but then again, the analytical construction involved is transparent enough that it also looks like three words, or two if you count "haokan" as one word.)

[Flickerdart]

Latin would probably be the most synthetic language that is widely known in the West.

"Valesne?" "Valeo".
"Are you all right?" "I'm fine."

"Morituri sumusne?" "Sumus."
"Are we going to die?" "Yes, we are."

"Quot verba sunt tibi?" "XXIV".
"How many words do you have?" "24".

"The horse will be stolen." "Equus rapietur."

"Once you will have stolen the horse, we will escape". "*** equum raperis, fugiamus."

Casting a wider net, you can do exactly the same thing with Russian. Hell, in some cases it even works better - your "Are we going to die?" "Yes, we are." becomes the incredibly compact "умрем?" "да" thanks to the student-maddening feature of declension. Similarly, the horse plan would be "как сопрешь лошадь, бежим" which also has fewer syllables than the Latin.

[Peelee]

Latin

[snip]

"Once you will have stolen the horse"

I do not miss conjugating in Latin.

[keybounce]

"Once you will have stolen the horse..."

It's a perfectly clear time-tense. In the future, looking back.

[atemu1234]

Usually, Spanish takes up around 30% more words than English. This is a well known fact in translating/interpreting circles. :)

Then why not french? Or southern english?

Spoiler: Meme

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[Elderand]

Then why not french? Or southern english?

Spoiler: Meme

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English to French increases word count by anywhere between 10 to 20%

Southern english has less words but it's so drawn out it feels twice as long. :P

[littlebum2002]

Usually, Spanish takes up around 30% more words than English. This is a well known fact in translating/interpreting circles. :)

English to French increases word count by anywhere between 10 to 20%

Southern english has less words but it's so drawn out it feels twice as long. :P

I mean, perhaps people are just giving bad examples, but there HAVE to be languages that have a greater information density (is that the correct term?) than English. Maybe logographic languages like Chinese?
Yes, I had to look that word up

[martianmister]

A better question would be "Why not engrish?"

[keybounce]

Ok, so we need a language that combines the verb-object combination of spanish along with the reduced "clutter" count of english and the german pile-on construction.

That should reduce the word count enough to fit a short story into a single sending... what do you mean, my recipient needs a language skill of 20?

[Zyzzyva]

Ok, so we need a language that combines the verb-object combination of spanish along with the reduced "clutter" count of english and the german pile-on construction.

That should reduce the word count enough to fit a short story into a single sending... what do you mean, my recipient needs a language skill of 20?

Heh.

I think we also have to consider that there aren't that many possibilities that would help much so far. Dwarven I think looses a few words here or there but not many, and Elven is Common in angle brackets. That's really not a big advantage against 25 words.