Blade Adept Arcanist 20

[tadkins]

I've been looking for info and I'm curious; would this work on its own?

Most of the Arcanist guides I've looked up talk about having to prestige Eldritch Knight, or abuse some kind of Aasimar trick, to make it work properly. I know the low BAB and HP that the Arcanist has work against it, but I figure there might be a set of spell, exploit and/or feat options that might make a straight up Blade Adept 20 work. Otherwise it seems like what I'm looking for; a full arcane caster that doesn't look too foolish wielding a weapon.

[CasualViking]

+10 BAB, +5 weapon, not using you casting stat to attack: Looking like a chump. You gain so little, you will be tempted to take VMC: Magus.

[tadkins]

+10 BAB, +5 weapon, not using you casting stat to attack: Looking like a chump. You gain so little, you will be tempted to take VMC: Magus.

Yep that's what I was afraid of. Thanks for the response though. I might just have to go with the Wizard/Fighter/Eldritch Knight build instead.

[Kurald Galain]

I've been looking for info and I'm curious; would this work on its own?

Sure it works, but only by virtue of being a full caster. That goes for a number of EK builds as well.

The question you should ask yourself is, do you want to play a gish, or do you want to play a wizard with a sword in his hand.

[tadkins]

The question you should ask yourself is, do you want to play a gish, or do you want to play a wizard with a sword in his hand.

Ideally, I'd like to be gish-y, but I'd also like access to 9th level spells for reasons. xD

[Serafina]

Well, you can get an effective Arcanist level of 19 if you go for Arcanist 10/Evangelist 10. Compared to Eldritch Knight, you do lose 3 points of BAB though - but it's worth it for further progressing your Black Blade.

But really, even with Eldritch Knight or Evangelist, the Blade Adept isn't actually that great in melee.
You don't get a Magus ability to cast spells while attacking - you can get spell strike, but that's just one melee attack worth of damage.
You're not blessed with an excess of hit points, but more importantly you won't have good AC. Defensive spells can help of course, but still.
You'll either have to invest significantly into Strength or Dexterity, or wait until you can get the right Arcana and then spend both swift actions and pool points to reliably hit.

Mind you - you can still be mostly a spellcaster who occasionally goes into melee. Whether that's gish enough for you is up to you.
If you go Evangelist, I'd recommend Diverse Obedience so that you can pick&choose which boons you can get, instead of automatically getting Evangelist-boons. You'll get your second boon at 11th level, and your third at 14th. Some decent options:
- Calistra can give you an extra 5 foot reach (great for not provoking AoOs), and then Charisma-to-AC
- Desna can give you Charisma to Concentration and Caster level, and then a swift-action attack. Take Way of the Shooting Star and you can actually use Charisma for attack and damage all the time.

Either way, your tactics will probably resolve around being mobile and using hit&run tactics to great effect. Move-action teleport, Swift-Action Arcane Accuracy, Standard-action spellcast that is then delivered via spellstrike. You'll probably want reach on that to avoid AoOs, so you might want to use a Swordmasters Flair or Calistras second boon. That one attack is very likely to land, but mostly you'll do damage from the spell you cast - ideally, it'll crit and then deal a ton of damage.

At high levels, you could use this with Meteor Swarm - together with Close Range, you get four attacks that deal 2D6 damage on their own, but also apply a -4 penalty to the save against that 6D6 fire damage from each sphere. 8D6 bludgeoning damage and 24D6 fire damage is pretty devastating, of course. Just make sure you're not burning yourself to a crisp.

Though it's probably wiser to use other spells for this.
Energy Drain is great for this, especially if you manage to land a critical hit - then it'd be 4D4 negative levels.
Polar Ray does a lot of damage (up to 25D6), but also Dexterity drain which can devastate certain creatures with low Dexterity.
Disintegrate does a ton of damage, but only if they fail their save, which you're no better at than a normal Arcanist. Still, a critical disintegrate holds the record for sheer amount of damage dice - 80D6.
Generally, you'll want spells that do a lot of damage to a single creature, or that do some random numerical value such as ability damage/drain or negative levels. You'll only ever have a 25% chance of landing a crit though, so this is hardly a reliably tactic.

[Florian]

Yep that's what I was afraid of. Thanks for the response though. I might just have to go with the Wizard/Fighter/Eldritch Knight build instead.

Just drop the idea. PF redefined what a Gish should look like and how it should function, and a Blade Adept does not come nowhere near it.

[tadkins]

Mind you - you can still be mostly a spellcaster who occasionally goes into melee. Whether that's gish enough for you is up to you.

Yup, that's the idea. I'd like to be a decent switch-hitter. There's always those moments where magic is unreliable and being a competent weapon user is a boon. Thank you for that info, I'm rather unexperienced and some examples of tactics are a big help.

Alternatively, I was considering going with a Melee Oracle/VMC Magus. I posted a similar thread a while back and got that as a response. It's just a matter of deciding whether I want my 9th level spells to be Arcane or Divine.

Just drop the idea. PF redefined what a Gish should look like and how it should function, and a Blade Adept does not come nowhere near it.

Hehe, fair enough. xD

[Serafina]

Well, Oracles can be "gishes" by virtue of buffing themselves, and then going to town with that. Casting in melee will then mostly be done via quickened spells.
Do note that if you go for Magus VMC, you have to take the Broad Study arcana to really use spell strike at all, since almost no Cleric-spells are also on the Magus-list.
But even then the value is questionable. You'd want to get full-round attacks to make the most of your buffed-up melee attacks - but that means you can't cast a spell to use it with spell strike, unless you quicken it. But you lack the damaging spells that are really good with spell strike, though there's certainly some stuff that can be used.
While you could certainly benefit from the right Arcana - such as a swift action to make all your melee attacks touch attacks for a round - you'll also have a limited arcana pool since your Intelligence won't be terribly high.


If you want it just for switch-hitting, I think your idea is actually reasonably solid. It's not the most optimized thing ever of course - but you're a primary caster, make use of your overpoweredness!
So, here's some more input on the build.

Assuming a 25 point buy, I'd recommend the following:
Strength 10, Dexterity 14, Constitution 14, Intelligence 16, Wisdom 10, Charisma 14.
You could dump Strength to 8 and Wisdom to 7, or vice versa, to get a second score to 16. But ideally, you'll take a race that dumps either of those and grants a boost to one of the scores you actually want instead.

Race doesn't actually matter that much - you'll be using your favored class bonus to boost your HP, and of the core races you could easily play anything but a Dwarf.

Feats aren't terribly complicated.
You won't take power attack - you can't afford the penalty, and don't care that much about the damage bonus.
Arcane Strike isn't that good for you either, you'll want your swift actions for other stuff. Though at low levels it might be worth it, if you have access to easy retraining.
You'll really want Weapon Finesse, obviously - ASAP actually. Normally you'd want Fencing Grace or some similar feat - but do consider that it effectively costs you two feats, and that you aren't about doing actually high melee damage.
Since you can't custom-enchant your weapon, you'll want Improved Critical (Rapier) around the time you can afford it - which is actually level 16 (!!) if you go for straight arcane adept, and level 13 if you go for Evangelist.
Lunge is good once you can get it for extra reach.
So you'll probably use your feats on extra exploits, and other caster-stuff like that. There really isn't much need for other things that make you better in melee here. If you go Evangelist, you'll need Divine Obedience and want Diverse Obedience.

On to Exploits. You only get your first two at level 5 and 7, then again from level 11 onwards.
You'll need four exploits to make the idea viable:
Spell Strike is obvious. Close Range is needed to have access to more spells with it. Arcane Accuracy is needed to actually hit most things. And Dimensional Slide is needed so that you won't be at such a high risk.
Put the other exploits towards the usual good ones, which you can find in guides.

And actually - you need to survive. To that end, let me recommend you a dip: Inspired Blade Swashbuckler. One level for +1 BAB, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Rapier) and most importantly, Panache and deeds. Use Dodging Panache or Opportune Parry and Riposte to stay alive.

Again, you'll mostly be a caster. However, if you see a vulnerable enemy, you can teleport to them (you can get pretty far with Dimensional Slide, at 15th level it'd be 150 (140 with Evangelist, 130 with dip) and hit them with a touch-spell. Eventually, it'll have a decent chance to crit and do a ton of damage or bad things. You'll probably be a pretty high-profile target, but that can be a tactical boon in some situations. Throw in some illusions for confusion, if the enemies fall for that.


Actual Build:
Race: Gnome works well, but so do most other races as mentioned above.
Swashbuckler 1/Arcanist 4/Evangelist 10
BAB: +10. Saves: +4/8/5
Feats: Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Rapier), Improved Critical (Rapier), Deific Obedience (Calistra), Diverse Obedience, Extra Exploit x2, Toughness, Improved Initiative, Lunge, Spell Penetration
Traits: somethingsomethingcan'tbebotheredreadsomeguides
Exploits: Spell Strike, Arcane Accuracy, Close Range, Dimensional Slide, Metamagic Knowledge (Dazing Spell), Greater Metamagic Knowledge
Important Items: Blue Scarf Swordmasters Flair, Quickrunners Shirt

How to play this:
Set up the battlefield with your spells. Buff your allies if needed. Take out weak enemies with area of effect spells.
To get into actual melee, you may want to have your swordmasters flair active. It'll increase your reach to 20 feet, otherwise it's 15 feet which is good enough for most cases.
Move action, spend 1 point to activate dimensional slide - 15 feet normal move, but only if they don't provoke AoOs. Then you can teleport up to 130 feet, which really ought to be enough almost all the time. Safely through most enemy defenses, park yourself outside of the reach of the enemy you want to hit.
Free action to activate Lunge. If necessary, free action to activate your +5 feet reach from Winsome Lash, which you can only do four times per day.
Swift-action to activate arcane accuracy, unless you're sure you can hit without it. You'll attack with ~+20, so it might. If you think you can hit without, cast a quickened first- or second-level spell. Or if you haven't used it, save it for your Quickrunners Shirt.
Standard-action cast. Really hope you're outside of enemy reach, otherwise you'll go squish with quite some likelyhood. And fail the spell too. Cast something that does good damage - Disintegrate, ideally with a boosted DC. Or Cosmic Ray, or Enervation, or Vampiric Touch, or Force Punch, or Scorching Ray, or something. Deliver via melee attack (Scorching Ray gets three), hope it crits for maximum effect.
Now - if the enemy is still alive, or the area otherwise dangerous, get the fudge out of there. Which you can only do right way if you still have your quickrunners shirt available - swift-action teleport and you're good in basically every situation. If not - well, then hope you can get out of reach via Dodging Panache, otherwise it'll be likely you'll be hit since you'll be only wearing light armor, don't have that much Dexterity (20 or something) and while getting Charisma-to-AC is nice, that's only +3 or so right now.


What does this cost you?
Three exploits - well, actually six, since you'll sink three purely into this melee trick.
A dip, and arguably another level from Evangelist, since Evangelist is really mostly good for your melee too.
Two feats that are just there for melee.

What do you gain for casting?
A 30% chance to do double damage with a non-area spell, as well as 1D6+5 or so damage on top.
Some extra pool points if you draw them from your black blade.
Also Altertness.
Also a buddy that can't take actions.
The ability to look badass.

[tadkins]

Well, Oracles can be "gishes" by virtue of buffing themselves, and then going to town with that. Casting in melee will then mostly be done via quickened spells.
Do note that if you go for Magus VMC, you have to take the Broad Study arcana to really use spell strike at all, since almost no Cleric-spells are also on the Magus-list.
But even then the value is questionable. You'd want to get full-round attacks to make the most of your buffed-up melee attacks - but that means you can't cast a spell to use it with spell strike, unless you quicken it. But you lack the damaging spells that are really good with spell strike, though there's certainly some stuff that can be used.
While you could certainly benefit from the right Arcana - such as a swift action to make all your melee attacks touch attacks for a round - you'll also have a limited arcana pool since your Intelligence won't be terribly high.

For that build I'd be taking Broad Study, Bane Blade and Devoted Blade, as per this piece of advice I received in another thread a while back.

Bane Blade and Devoted Blade Magus Arcana both let you tag specific Bane and Holy/Axiomatic/Anarchic onto you weapon as needed effectively adding 4d6 extra damage on every attack you make.

Plus I'd use the spell Holy Ice Weapon with all that. I like the idea of doing my lion's share of melee damage with magic. My character wouldn't be that strong physically, gotta find a way to compensate, right?

If you want it just for switch-hitting, I think your idea is actually reasonably solid. It's not the most optimized thing ever of course - but you're a primary caster, make use of your overpoweredness!
So, here's some more input on the build.

Assuming a 25 point buy, I'd recommend the following:
Strength 10, Dexterity 14, Constitution 14, Intelligence 16, Wisdom 10, Charisma 14.
You could dump Strength to 8 and Wisdom to 7, or vice versa, to get a second score to 16. But ideally, you'll take a race that dumps either of those and grants a boost to one of the scores you actually want instead.

Race doesn't actually matter that much - you'll be using your favored class bonus to boost your HP, and of the core races you could easily play anything but a Dwarf.

Feats aren't terribly complicated.
You won't take power attack - you can't afford the penalty, and don't care that much about the damage bonus.
Arcane Strike isn't that good for you either, you'll want your swift actions for other stuff. Though at low levels it might be worth it, if you have access to easy retraining.
You'll really want Weapon Finesse, obviously - ASAP actually. Normally you'd want Fencing Grace or some similar feat - but do consider that it effectively costs you two feats, and that you aren't about doing actually high melee damage.
Since you can't custom-enchant your weapon, you'll want Improved Critical (Rapier) around the time you can afford it - which is actually level 16 (!!) if you go for straight arcane adept, and level 13 if you go for Evangelist.
Lunge is good once you can get it for extra reach.
So you'll probably use your feats on extra exploits, and other caster-stuff like that. There really isn't much need for other things that make you better in melee here. If you go Evangelist, you'll need Divine Obedience and want Diverse Obedience.

On to Exploits. You only get your first two at level 5 and 7, then again from level 11 onwards.
You'll need four exploits to make the idea viable:
Spell Strike is obvious. Close Range is needed to have access to more spells with it. Arcane Accuracy is needed to actually hit most things. And Dimensional Slide is needed so that you won't be at such a high risk.
Put the other exploits towards the usual good ones, which you can find in guides.

And actually - you need to survive. To that end, let me recommend you a dip: Inspired Blade Swashbuckler. One level for +1 BAB, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Rapier) and most importantly, Panache and deeds. Use Dodging Panache or Opportune Parry and Riposte to stay alive.

Again, you'll mostly be a caster. However, if you see a vulnerable enemy, you can teleport to them (you can get pretty far with Dimensional Slide, at 15th level it'd be 150 (140 with Evangelist, 130 with dip) and hit them with a touch-spell. Eventually, it'll have a decent chance to crit and do a ton of damage or bad things. You'll probably be a pretty high-profile target, but that can be a tactical boon in some situations. Throw in some illusions for confusion, if the enemies fall for that.


Actual Build:
Race: Gnome works well, but so do most other races as mentioned above.
Swashbuckler 1/Arcanist 4/Evangelist 10
BAB: +10. Saves: +4/8/5
Feats: Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Rapier), Improved Critical (Rapier), Deific Obedience (Calistra), Diverse Obedience, Extra Exploit x2, Toughness, Improved Initiative, Lunge, Spell Penetration
Traits: somethingsomethingcan'tbebotheredreadsomeguides
Exploits: Spell Strike, Arcane Accuracy, Close Range, Dimensional Slide, Metamagic Knowledge (Dazing Spell), Greater Metamagic Knowledge
Important Items: Blue Scarf Swordmasters Flair, Quickrunners Shirt

How to play this:
Set up the battlefield with your spells. Buff your allies if needed. Take out weak enemies with area of effect spells.
To get into actual melee, you may want to have your swordmasters flair active. It'll increase your reach to 20 feet, otherwise it's 15 feet which is good enough for most cases.
Move action, spend 1 point to activate dimensional slide - 15 feet normal move, but only if they don't provoke AoOs. Then you can teleport up to 130 feet, which really ought to be enough almost all the time. Safely through most enemy defenses, park yourself outside of the reach of the enemy you want to hit.
Free action to activate Lunge. If necessary, free action to activate your +5 feet reach from Winsome Lash, which you can only do four times per day.
Swift-action to activate arcane accuracy, unless you're sure you can hit without it. You'll attack with ~+20, so it might. If you think you can hit without, cast a quickened first- or second-level spell. Or if you haven't used it, save it for your Quickrunners Shirt.
Standard-action cast. Really hope you're outside of enemy reach, otherwise you'll go squish with quite some likelyhood. And fail the spell too. Cast something that does good damage - Disintegrate, ideally with a boosted DC. Or Cosmic Ray, or Enervation, or Vampiric Touch, or Force Punch, or Scorching Ray, or something. Deliver via melee attack (Scorching Ray gets three), hope it crits for maximum effect.
Now - if the enemy is still alive, or the area otherwise dangerous, get the fudge out of there. Which you can only do right way if you still have your quickrunners shirt available - swift-action teleport and you're good in basically every situation. If not - well, then hope you can get out of reach via Dodging Panache, otherwise it'll be likely you'll be hit since you'll be only wearing light armor, don't have that much Dexterity (20 or something) and while getting Charisma-to-AC is nice, that's only +3 or so right now.


What does this cost you?
Three exploits - well, actually six, since you'll sink three purely into this melee trick.
A dip, and arguably another level from Evangelist, since Evangelist is really mostly good for your melee too.
Two feats that are just there for melee.

What do you gain for casting?
A 30% chance to do double damage with a non-area spell, as well as 1D6+5 or so damage on top.
Some extra pool points if you draw them from your black blade.
Also Altertness.
Also a buddy that can't take actions.
The ability to look badass.

This is all really interesting. Thanks for the hard work you obviously put into this. Definitely have to tag this thread to use as a later reference. xD

I like that your example uses a Gnome. It's hard to find a way to make an effective gnome melee combatant. The strategy run-down is a big help as well.

[Serafina]

Do note that there'll probably be situations where you can have sufficient amounts of defensive spells that you can just stay in one place and stab a bad guy each round. Your damage output can be pretty good - it's just that the vast majority will be from spells, and that you'll be critfishing.

So sometimes you'll be able to buff up, and go stab some faces without teleporting out right away. Mostly against enemies that aren't that dangerous in melee, or are likely to go down to one attack (in that case area spells would be better, but sometimes you have to worry about friendly fire). If you're trying to kill an enemy caster, this is all reasonably low-risk and hoping for that crit that takes them down quickly is a reasonable bet.


I think if you like this build, you can play it.
You'll start out as a caster for your first four levels. The fifth will be your Swashbuckler level, then you'll go into Evangelist. By level 7, you have your teleport, your spellstrike, plus your necessary arcana. You'll have a nice +2 weapon that can bypass most DR and your melee attack won't be anything to write home about, but it'll be there. You'll be quite capable of getting out of sticky situations via either Deeds or teleportation, and can dish out some good spell damage, and at 8th level you'll get 3rd-level spells with a normal progression from then on out. I've already outlined what you'll be capable off later.

[tadkins]

Do note that there'll probably be situations where you can have sufficient amounts of defensive spells that you can just stay in one place and stab a bad guy each round. Your damage output can be pretty good - it's just that the vast majority will be from spells, and that you'll be critfishing.

So sometimes you'll be able to buff up, and go stab some faces without teleporting out right away. Mostly against enemies that aren't that dangerous in melee, or are likely to go down to one attack (in that case area spells would be better, but sometimes you have to worry about friendly fire). If you're trying to kill an enemy caster, this is all reasonably low-risk and hoping for that crit that takes them down quickly is a reasonable bet.


I think if you like this build, you can play it.
You'll start out as a caster for your first four levels. The fifth will be your Swashbuckler level, then you'll go into Evangelist. By level 7, you have your teleport, your spellstrike, plus your necessary arcana. You'll have a nice +2 weapon that can bypass most DR and your melee attack won't be anything to write home about, but it'll be there. You'll be quite capable of getting out of sticky situations via either Deeds or teleportation, and can dish out some good spell damage, and at 8th level you'll get 3rd-level spells with a normal progression from then on out. I've already outlined what you'll be capable off later.

The only real issue I have with Evangelist is the flavor, that you have to pretty much throw yourself into a deity's arms. Other than that the build and mechanics are very sound.

At this point I'm leaning more and more toward going Winter Oracle/VMC Magus. The revelations look like they have a lot of synergy with each other, and I can take Broad Study to spellstrike Harm and other good stuff. Seems like it could be fun.