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2017-01-18, 04:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2004
Re: OOTS #1063 - The Discussion Thread
Now that Andi's, for the moment anyway, an important enough character to remember the name of from one strip to the next, I'm looking back at her interaction with Belkar and wondering about her incuriosity when Belkar outright says that holy water hurts him.
I wonder just how thoroughly "Captain Andi" would ditch the "heroic" in "heroic pirates," if the choice was hers.Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2017-01-18, 04:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2015
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- The Great Eastern Bay
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2017-01-18, 04:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2015
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- Gondor, Middle Earth
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Re: OOTS #1063 - The Discussion Thread
I'm a Lawful Good Human PaladinJustice and honor are a heavy burden for the righteous. We carry this weight so that the weak may grow strong and the meek grow brave
— The Acts of Iomedae, Pathfinder
Avatar made by Professor Gnoll
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2017-01-18, 04:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2015
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Re: OOTS #1063 - The Discussion Thread
I just reviewed the strip where Elan and Roy discuss Helium and the ship.
The Giants can crash the ship by cutting the lines/ropes that suspend the ship from the gas bag. (I am not referring to Roy). However, they may be smart enough (or their leader may be smart enough) to realize that they only need to get it leaking for it to settle down (rather than crash) which puts the crew and their passengers on the ground where more of the giants can get at them. Were they to cut the lines, it would be a suicide mission for the frost giants who'd then also go down with the ship.
Or, they could cut the lines on one side and the ship would list heavily to that side. With the propellers configured as they are, the ship would mostly fly in circles with all hand on deck either sliding off or hanging on for dear life.
All of this based on "how the airship works" discussion Roy and Elan had, and the drawing of the ship as presented.
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2017-01-18, 05:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2016
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Re: OOTS #1063 - The Discussion Thread
Eh, I'm thinking that panel is meant to be glossed over for the sake of a joke. She didn't comment on his sophisticated Halfling palette either. Even if we're meant to take Andi's dismissal absolutely seriously, she was still the person least on board with having Greg on board aside from Belkar himself. So unless it's only Evil people who naturally distrust vampires, I think we give her a pass here. She's just a huge Neutral jerk, in my book.
Even the wind will know agony.
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2017-01-18, 05:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2004
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Re: OOTS #1063 - The Discussion Thread
To be fair to the captain, there are specific standard operating procedures for ignoring apparent partial transmissions for a good reason: some order style encryptions could be partially hacked, such that you find a key that can only correctly decode or encode a portion of the full message. The working assumption is that your communications are secure enough that full and complete false orders are unlikely, but you can never really know about a partial message. So the captain was not crazy to assert that partial messages are not messages.
The Brits ran into this a lot with their project Ultra during WW2. When the beginning portion of the message indicated the full message was very important, they would keep cranking the magic machine to search for the correct key. In most cases, the partial decrypt demonstrated that the particular message could be ignored, or the full message was not so important as trying to crack more recent messages.I owe Peelee 5 Quatloos. But I am going double or nothing that Durkon will be casting 8th level spells at the big finale.
I bet Goblin_Priest 5 quatloos that Xykon does not know RC has the phylactery at this point in the tale (#1139).
Using my Bardic skills I see the fate of Belkar...so close!
Using my Bardic skills I see the fate of goblinkind!
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2017-01-18, 06:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2009
Re: OOTS #1063 - The Discussion Thread
Oh, no doubt about Andi being in the wrong here. I'm pretty sure wrenching your boss in the head is a bad idea in many situations.
But this certainly isn't the ideal outcome. Taking a wrench in the head from a subordinate is unlikely to be considered the best outcome in any situation, even if said subordinate is a total jerk. And so looking at it purely from the consequences, Bandana's leadership has not gone well.
Morally, Bandana is totally in the right. Andi is being a jealous petty jerk who's failing to do her job or help our her crewmates.
But using the example of military command structures, it's a lot more complicated than "I am your commander, you obey me." That statement is true, but the modern military trains its officers over years to learn how to manage and get the most out of their subordinates. Asserting seniority might get a subordinate to obey you, but they'll be more effective in their duties if you and they have a good relationship.
With that in mind, I would say Bandana hasn't necessarily adapted to leadership all that well. Ignoring Andi's grousing for so long was a poor - if understandable - decision. Andi's bad behavior was affecting her work and causing friction with her crewmates. Either Bandana should've tried to work out something with Andi, or found an alternative solution for her chief engineer.
Losing your cool in a crisis is quite understandable - but isn't good leadership. There's a reason why the modern navy tends to prefer even-tempered, easygoing captains. The captains of nuclear missile subs in particular are known as the friendliest, most laid back, calmest people you'll ever meet.
Again, Andi is completely in the wrong here. There's few situations where wrenching someone in the skull puts you in the right.
But that is an important facet of leadership: sometimes, being right isn't enough to be a good leader. Learning how to manage complete jerks is a vital skill in leadership - and not an easy one.
That said, I still blame Julio for all this. Suddenly abandon a crew which is almost entirely united by their cult-like adoration of you, and put a young first-timer in charge with nary a word of endorsement. The least Julio could've done is give a speech like, "Hey, guys - Bandana is the awesomest. Listen to her, why not."
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2017-01-18, 06:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2009
Re: OOTS #1063 - The Discussion Thread
Well ... if Andi knew (based on her skill set) that any more boulder strikes would certainly kill them and was trying to say '... but Little Miss Junior Captain here won't listen to me tell her that a single additional strike will compromise the ships structural integrity and kill us all and we can do nothing about that with the tool on hand' than she might not be in the wrong at all.
We have no way of knowing that of course - but Andi might.
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2017-01-18, 06:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2015
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Re: OOTS #1063 - The Discussion Thread
If Andi believes the Mechane can't take a single additional hit, she should have said so. She got off quite a few speech balloons there before Bandana cut her off. Giving the captain a clear picture of the mechanical state of the ship is Andi's responsibility too, so if what you're saying is true, well, that'd be another way her professionalism fell short of sterling.
Last edited by hroþila; 2017-01-18 at 06:33 PM.
ungelic is us
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2017-01-18, 06:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2015
Re: OOTS #1063 - The Discussion Thread
Respectfully, I think you're setting the bar way too low with regards to what counts as people skills that don't suck. The ability to make small talk with acquaintances with whom you have no substantial conflicts without flying into a rage--or alternately, the ability to deal with customers without going out of your way to offend them--is the full extent to which Andi's people skills have been demonstrated. To me, that takes her out of "has an obvious, debilitating cognitive disorder" territory, but doesn't by itself raise her to even the low bar of "doesn't suck." The measure of your people skills isn't about how you get along with guys you are apathetic towards, or guys you really like, or guys who agree with you on everything--it's about whether you're able to work productively with people who you dislike, who disagree with you, even in stressful situations.
Regardless of how you split that particular hair though, I think we can both agree that Andi's have demonstrably fallen short of being "good," which is what you would want in a Captain. As others have pointed out, a coherent chain of command is perhaps even more important on an outlaw ship than on a conventional military vessel, and it's even harder to keep together because a pirate ship lacks the indoctrination and enforcement institutions of an official navy. That's why in the case of real pirates, the successful captains are the ones who are able to convince people to voluntarily submit to another's orders on the long term, to the extent that they're essentially consenting in advance to be punished later if they disobey orders or commit some other infraction. Knowing what people want and how to give it to them, how to balance enforcing discipline with creating a a sense that your crew is valued, that requires good people skills.
I believe Julio left Bandanna in charge because of her demonstrated ability not to panic in battle, and because she has the potential to develop good people skills. As others have pointed out, she has a lot of room to improve. Particular, the situation with Andi demonstrates a lack of ability to proactively spot issues arising from other people's personality problems--the management equivalent of defensive driving. Nonetheless, Bandanna is far more talented in this area than Andi, whose people skills are self-sabotaging. To extend the driving metaphor, Andi's the driver who keeps running red lights and yelling at the people who almost hit her, while Bandanna's main failing is that she isn't watching out for bad drivers. In terms of the management aspect of people skills, Andi was unable to convince any of the crew to see her side of things--which demonstrates a substantial lack of ability considering that, objectively speaking, Andi's position on helping the Order is much safer and more beneficial to the crew than following Bandanna/Julio's directives. In terms of the introspective side, Andi is even worse. As much as Andi (and dancrilis) might convince herself that trying to murder her captain was a selfless act motivated purely by some previously unmentioned duty to protect the ship at all costs, Andi is clearly quite jealous that Bandanna was put in charge, which led to a major deterioration in their relationship and caused substantial bias in her judgment. While the animosity goes both ways, I believe Bandanna is actually aware of this bias and tries not let it cloud her judgment. Bandanna has not obviously allowed her dislike of Andi's attitude to undermine her opinion of Andi's technical skills and advice, and she has enough self-control not to yell momentarily satisfying, but ultimately unproductive, crap back at her.
Alternately, other pirate captains manage to succeed by being flippin' terrifying, to both their targets and their own crews. You could call that a subset of people skills, and in that respect Andi is heading int he right direction.Last edited by Xyril; 2017-01-18 at 06:43 PM.
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2017-01-18, 06:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2008
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2017-01-18, 06:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2015
Re: OOTS #1063 - The Discussion Thread
Exactly. If the engines canna take anymore, Captain, that's the very first thing out of Scotty's mouth. If instead he first spends five minutes on a whiny, passive-aggressive rant questioning why the hell Starfleet put Kirk in charge of a star ship, no reasonable captain would spend another five minutes listening on the off chance there's some critical information coming later. If anything, coddling a spoiled child in a combat situation instead of dedicating that time and attention to another crew member who has something useful to say is completely irresponsible.
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2017-01-18, 06:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1063 - The Discussion Thread
What this logicfolk said. And yeah, most of the people rushing to defend Andi either ignored or missed the rather crucial timing of her wrench-smack. It didn't happen because Bandana disagreed with Andi's absolute authority on the ship's condition. It happened because Andi was insulted. Full stop.
Even the wind will know agony.
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2017-01-18, 07:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2015
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Re: OOTS #1063 - The Discussion Thread
I'm a Lawful Good Human PaladinJustice and honor are a heavy burden for the righteous. We carry this weight so that the weak may grow strong and the meek grow brave
— The Acts of Iomedae, Pathfinder
Avatar made by Professor Gnoll
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2017-01-18, 07:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2017
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Re: OOTS #1063 - The Discussion Thread
The important point being that the criticism, while using exaggerated imagery, was completely justified. So she overloaded and shot the messenger, so to speak, rather than acceping the truth of it and getting a grip on herself.
Some life wisdom from the Giant there, as this seems to be the more common reaction. :pLast edited by Vynn; 2017-01-18 at 07:52 PM.
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2017-01-18, 07:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2008
Re: OOTS #1063 - The Discussion Thread
The quality of that particular work, yes. The argument here seems to be along the lines of "Sure, she fixed a bunch of dramatic damages without adequate parts in a necessary rush, but the fix wasn't up to the standard of a fix with adequate parts where there wasn't a rush." That's not a particularly convincing argument.
I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.
I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that. -- ChubbyRain
Current Design Project: Legacy, a game of masters and apprentices for two players and a GM.
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2017-01-18, 08:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2007
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- NO LONGER IN CHINA!
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2017-01-18, 08:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2016
Re: OOTS #1063 - The Discussion Thread
Let us, for a moment, assume this is true. That still does not explain her actions as anything other than an angry rant by a highly unprofessional engineer. If in fact her professional opinion is that another hit would almost certainly destroy the ship and kill the crew, then including "stubborn little brat" and "Little Miss Junior Captain" is still wrong and likely to get this ignored. Deciding to leave this statement until after explicitly rejecting the captain's status and authority as captain is wrong. Which means even under the ridiculous assumption that Andi's next statement was going to be some validation of her actions and not simply "but Little Miss Junior Captain isn't paying attention to me," she still did the wrong thing and acted in a manner that is unacceptable on any ship, pirate included.
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2017-01-18, 09:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oregon, USA
Re: OOTS #1063 - The Discussion Thread
FeytouchedBanana eldritch disciple avatar by...me!
The Index of the Giant's Comments VI―Making Dogma from Zapped Bananas
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2017-01-18, 10:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1063 - The Discussion Thread
No, Roy, that happens to be the people running the boat you're standing on.
But it's all for drama, it'll be fine. Beneath the Planet of the Apes . was . . . very very sad at the end.http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...6#post15476516
I know I'm stealing this from someone else. But it's SO FUNNY
Zweisteine quoting Razanir:
"I am a human sixtyfourthling! Fear my minimal halfling ancestry!"
From: Razanir
Bagnold could be one sixty-fourth halfling.
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2017-01-19, 12:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2015
Re: OOTS #1063 - The Discussion Thread
: Or my Wizard killed them all and everyone they went to high school with, but let's not dwell on that.
You commit one little act of genocide and the party leader never lets you live it down
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2017-01-19, 10:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1063 - The Discussion Thread
No one expects the Bardic Exposition!
Quibblicious.
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2017-01-19, 11:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2012
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Re: OOTS #1063 - The Discussion Thread
There's one path marked on the map. The Frost Giants, who live there, lined that path. Either everyone has missed a perfectly acceptable secondary path, or Andi's screwed the proverbial pooch.
I think Andi has been clearly portrayed as being good at fixing the ship.
I don't know if you've ever read any of H. Beam Piper's alternative reality stuff, but imagine that every time any sentient being makes a decision, a new set of universes are spawned, one for each of the possible choices they could have made. Some decisions are insignificant, and those choices don't spawn too many children; some important with lots and lots of repercussions.
I'm going to argue that almost all of the universes spawned by Julio's decisions to leave Bandana in charge of the Mechane, with Andi still on board, and Julio not telling Andi in no uncertain terms that Bandana was in charge, Andi winds up trying to usurp Bandana's authority in some fashion. That's not Bandana's fault. And most of the other universes wind up with the world destroyed by failure of the Order's mission, which is not a good goal for Bandana to aim for.
Which is another way that Andi's panic has negative consequences - no one can be sure who's in charge at a moment of crisis.
No need to insult millennials. They are in large part living in a world they didn't make.
Anyway, heading into uncharted waters at 2/3 full with no clear officer in charge and under fire from enemy forces sounds like panic to me.
Lawful evil or Lawful neutral sounds right to me. They lived by rules, but THEIR rules, not society's.
She was brusque but not insulting. And it was a moment of crisis.
Live by yourself with only a dog, then. Dogs submit easily. If you get a cat, you're screwed.This ... is my signature finishing move!
"It's never good when you make a fiend cringe" - MadGrady
According to some online quiz, I'm a 6th level TN Wizard. They didn't give me full XP for all the monsters I've defeated while daydreaming.
http://easydamus.com/character.html
I am a Ranger Archetype: Gleaming Warden (thx to Ninja Prawn)
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2017-01-19, 11:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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2017-01-19, 11:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2012
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- Colorado
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Re: OOTS #1063 - The Discussion Thread
This ... is my signature finishing move!
"It's never good when you make a fiend cringe" - MadGrady
According to some online quiz, I'm a 6th level TN Wizard. They didn't give me full XP for all the monsters I've defeated while daydreaming.
http://easydamus.com/character.html
I am a Ranger Archetype: Gleaming Warden (thx to Ninja Prawn)
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2017-01-19, 12:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2009
Re: OOTS #1063 - The Discussion Thread
I'm wondering if we will see the "Falling Rocs" soon, now that we leave the "Falling Rocks" region.
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2017-01-19, 12:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2015
Re: OOTS #1063 - The Discussion Thread
Andi. It's not all fine. It's not even some fine. You stupid felonious jerkface.
Thanks to Andi, the Mechane is now losing magic air and altitude in an uncharted-airspace situation, the person trying to fix the 'losing air and altitude' bit has been thwarted, the person whose whole job is to fix things, is continuing to have her oh-so-commanding temper tantrum, and there are still two giants tearing up the ship itself.
If Bandana were still upright and commanding, at the very least Elan would have been able to Mend that air leak. If Andi bothered to take time out of her busy tantrum schedule to do her job (or follow the orders of her captain), some of the nav fins (or whatever) might be unstuck. And hey, if Elan had been able to complete his Mending, he'd be able to shimmy back down to deck and speed up the removal of the two giants Roy is currently failing to solo.
I wouldn't even wait for a port to put Andi off the ship. Toss her into a snowdrift and leave her there. She might die, she might not, but at least she wouldn't be taking anyone else with her. Her decisions have already cost the crew and the Mechane a LOT and we're only minutes into her usurped command.
I don't think Julio's getting his ship back after all.
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2017-01-19, 12:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2015
Re: OOTS #1063 - The Discussion Thread
Agreed! And it's worth pointing out that the rest of the order had already volunteered to help and take useful roles aboard ship to deal with that crisis. (Belkar hadn't, but no one in their right mind expects Belkar to help with anything.) Roy was just standing around on deck doing nothing. I'd've gotten annoyed at that too, if I were Bandana. Especially since it turned out that all he had to do to be useful was 'hold a rope so my engineer can go back to fixing things so we don't all die here'.
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2017-01-19, 01:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2007
Re: OOTS #1063 - The Discussion Thread
There is nothing magical about the Helium, other than the method by which is obtained.
(Also, a friendly reminder that mods prefer us to not double post)
GWInterested in MitD? Join us in MitD's thread.There is a world of imagination
Deep in the corners of your mind
Where reality is an intruder
And myth and legend thrive
Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est
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2017-01-19, 01:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1063 - The Discussion Thread
Further, since they're off the pass and now have to maneuver around every mountain, it's possible that they will have to keep turning and delaying Elan's patch job. I mean, it's dramatic and all to show the spell fizzling, but that in itself is still only a six second delay. My read is that those panels were there to indicate that Elan straight-up can't fix the tear unless the ship is taking a relatively smooth course.
Even the wind will know agony.