3.5 level 1 fighter vs. 3 orcs

[Psyren]

...Where did half an hour just go?

"Not reading the Core-only stipulation" would be one guess

[ExLibrisMortis]

Ha! Inevitability has fallen before the curse of Source Restrictions! Nothing shall be inevitable now, and we shall have freedom!

*cough*

If we're going off-books, I'd just use Astral Vambraces (and some other incarnum feat) to pick up DR 4/magic. That takes care of most of the damage, and leaves enough feats for Combat Reflexes.

Last I remember, you have to do something special to gain cover from a Tower Shield, like fight defensively or something.

1 orc threatens melee while other 2 throw javelins, you're still screwed.

As Lyndworm noted, it's unclear what exactly you have to do, but the FAQ suggests some rules, and under those rules, my plan works, provided:
1) You win initiative, and
2) You get to set up the shield (so you can wield a reach weapon, which is 2h in core).

If you lose initiative, you're flat-footed (not making AoOs) and sitting at a decent-but-beatable AC, something around 18 (10 +4 shield +4 armour). You'll probably die if you lose to more than one orc.
If you can't use a two-handed weapon, at least one orc will be free to attack you no matter what, getting around your tower shield cover.

An interesting situation is starting like this:

Spoiler

Show

+O	+	+	O
+	Y	+
+	+	+
O

You can't use a 5' step to reach a safe wall, but you can use your move action, because flat-footed orcs do not provoke. You'll have a standard to get tower shield cover, but not a move action to prop it up, if the DM requires it. Personally, I'd allow propping a tower shield as a move (because it's awesome, exactly for things like this), but as a free action... I'm not sure. It's all getting a bit speculative regarding tower shields at this point.

Overall, it may not be the most effective, but probably fairly effective, and it's compatible with any feat selection (Combat Reflexes and Improved Initiative come highly recommended, and maybe Weapon Focus? EWP (spiked chain)?).



A character with Two-weapon Fighting and Rapid Shot can use two main-hand and an off-hand attack to target all three orcs. With an 18 in strength, your minimum damage is 5 for your main hand and 3 for your off-hand, +1 on ranged attacks within 30'. First, you prick an orc threatening you in melee with a shortspear (main hand, -4 penalty) for 1d6+4 damage. Then, you throw the shortspear as a rapid shot bonus ranged attack (-3 penalty), for 1d6+5 damage. Finally, you throw your off-hand dagger, for 1d4 + 3 damage (off-hand -3 penalty).

[OldTrees1]

Wait, what about the Kusarigama(1 handed reach weapon from the DMG)?


Human Fighter 1:
Str 18, Dex 14, Con 11, Int 08, Wis 08, Cha 08 (16+6+3<=25)
Feats: Combat Reflexes, Weapon Focus, EWP
Equipment: Tower Shield, Chain Shirt, Kusarigama, Armor Spikes (190gp)
HP: 10
AC: 20
Atk: +4 or +3
Dam: 1d6+4
Initiative: +2

Starting position in keeping with only getting 1 Orc within my initial range

O1			O2
	Me		O3

Math:
Chance to win initiative
61.75% chance to beat any individual Orc (so beating O3 for example)
45.81% chance to beat 2 Orcs (output 1d20+2-[highest 1 of 2d20])
37.56% to beat all 3 Orcs (output 1d20+2-[highest 1 of 3d20])

Chance per attack for nothing/disabled/dying
Charging Orc: 70% to hit, 17% of hits are disabled and 83% are dying ->
30% / 12% / 58%
Otherwise Orc: 60% to hit, 17% of hits are disabled and 83% are dying ->
40% / 10% / 50%

Chance to survive a hit for nothing, 5 or under, 10 or under, out
Javalin: 10% to hit (2% to crit), 6+ on a 4-6 or on a crit (69%), 11+ on a 3-6 crit (1%)
90%, 3%, 7%, ~0%
Charging Falchion: 35% to hit (5% to crit), 11+ on a 7-8 (13%) or on a crit
65%, 0%, 26%, 9%
Falchion: 25% to hit (4% to crit), 11+ on a 7-8 (13%) or on a crit
75%, 0%, 18%, 7%

I could die immediately (O3 goes first and deals enough damage): 28.25%*7%=2%
O3 could still go first but only wound me & then I die to either of the other charging orcs:
28.25%*18%*((1-58%*58%)*35%+42%*42%*(1-65%*65%))=2%
Or I could beat O3 but miss or only disable & repeat case 2
61.75%*50%*18%*((1-58%*58%)*35%+42%*42%*(1-65%*65%))=2%
Or I could hit O3 but both charging orcs kill me
61.75%*50%*((1-58%*58%)*9%+42%*42%*(1-65%*65%))=5%

So I have an 11% chance of dying the first round. However if I survive the 1st round then I have killed 1.5 orcs on average so the 2nd round is much easier to survive although I am probably at low hp.

So perhaps we can estimate this as 1- Sum of 11%^N = 1 - 0.123596 = 83% chance of victory?

[Eldariel]

Isn't the Tower Shield-entry pretty obvious? "However, you can instead use it as total cover, though you must give up your attacks to do so." So if you use the shield for total cover, you can't attack. And of course, all the classical rules dysfunctions like hiding behind the Tower Shield, switching between shield mode and total cover mode without an action, having 360 degrees of total cover simultaneously, etc.

[Inevitability]

Ha! Inevitability has fallen before the curse of Source Restrictions! Nothing shall be inevitable now, and we shall have freedom!

One day I have this username, and people are already making puns about it.

Things are working out better than I expected.

[Calthropstu]

Human with 18 strength and 18 dexterity. ACF is Hit and Run Fighter.
Snip

...Where did half an hour just go?

Ummm question: since when can you take an attack of opportunity while flat footed?

[OldTrees1]

Ummm question: since when can you take an attack of opportunity while flat footed?

Combat Reflexes has this gem "With this feat, you may also make attacks of opportunity while flat-footed."

[Calthropstu]

Combat Reflexes has this gem "With this feat, you may also make attacks of opportunity while flat-footed."

Well I'll be damned. So it does. Ignore me, carry on.

[Deadline]

One day I have this username, and people are already making puns about it.

Things are working out better than I expected.

Think that's fun? Just try competing in the various competitions around here with a username like mine!

Competitor: "I missed the deadline"
Me: "Aw, I missed you too!"

Also, *gasp* Are you a Changeling? I see you for you who really are, Dire_Stirge!

[Ruslan]

Level: Willing Deformity
Human: Combat Reflexes
Fighter: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spinning Sword)
Flaw: Deft Opportunist
Flaw: Willing Deformity (Tall)

The two words no one ever reads or pays attention to: "Core Only".
I swear to god, if I ever have to submit an unpleasant report at work, I will plaster a "Core Only" watermark across every single page. Pretty much guarantees no one will read it.

[OldTrees1]

The two words no one ever reads or pays attention to: "Core Only".
I swear to god, if I ever have to submit an unpleasant report at work, I will plaster a "Core Only" watermark across every single page. Pretty much guarantees no one will read it.

Too be fair, several of us did notice it, as my Tower Shield & Kusarigama wielding Human can attest.

[Sapreaver]

Okay so human level 1

Fighter bonus feat: rapid shot
Human feat : point blank shot
First level feat: improved unarmed strike
Flaw: deflect arrows
Flaw: snatch arrows.

18 str
18 dex
8 con
8 int
8 wis
8 cha

Weapons:
harpoon in main hand
Net in off hand.
Braid blade in hair
O = = O
=
= M
0
Net the furthest orc from you this prevents him from reaching you with a charge forcing either a walk over with debuffs or hopefully a javelin throw.

Harpoon one of the of the other orcs.
It deals 1d10+4 so it will die if you hit.

5 foot step back in to the corner

N = = O
=
=
D. m

The unimpeeded orc if it charges you have an attack of opportunity. For 1d6+4 killing it on hit

If either of them throw a jav throw the first one back and then bait the remaining orc by staying out of charge lines and trying to get either attacks of opportunities or a snatch arrow kill with the jav.

Requires you to win initiative though or at least come second.

Does everything here look right?
I haven't played in a longtime

[Zaq]

...Where did half an hour just go?

I forget, is this why we love D&D, or why we hate it?

[Inevitability]

Also, *gasp* Are you a Changeling? I see you for you who really are, Dire_Stirge!

Oh no, I've been found out! What gave it away: the well-known thread I've been running for nine months which suddenly switched owners, or the fact that I kept the exact same signature?

I forget, is this why we love D&D, or why we hate it?

Both.

[Lans]

Level one did you say?
Core only?
Human?


Half Dragon Half Fighter 1 14 Hp
Strength 28
Dexterity 18
Constitution 19
Intelligence 12
Wisdom 12
Charisma 14
Feats improved initiative, combat reflexes, Exotic weapon proficiency kusaigarma
AC 25, 23 flat footed Scale Male, tower shield, +5 Natural armor, 2 dexterity
5/magic DR
Attacks Kursai Gama+10/ d8+9
Breath weapon 6d8 30 foot cone
Only takes an average of 4 points of damage from a hit, and the orcs need a 18 to hit.

[Inevitability]

Level one did you say?
Core only?
Human?


Half Dragon Half Fighter 1 14 Hp
Strength 28
Dexterity 18
Constitution 19
Intelligence 12
Wisdom 12
Charisma 14
Feats improved initiative, combat reflexes, Exotic weapon proficiency kusaigarma
AC 25, 23 flat footed Scale Male, tower shield, +5 Natural armor, 2 dexterity
5/magic DR
Attacks Kursai Gama+10/ d8+9
Breath weapon 6d8 30 foot cone
Only takes an average of 4 points of damage from a hit, and the orcs need a 18 to hit.

If we're assuming 'fighter 1' leaves room for LA, you might as well be a ghost and reduce the chance of failure from 'very small' to 'zero'.

[Lans]

I didnt want my character to die though.

[Harlekin]

Level one did you say?
Core only?
Human?


Half Dragon Half Fighter 1 14 Hp

Half Dragon has a LA +3 listed, so it is not level one...

For all the builds using flaws, i thought "core" meant PHB, DMG and MM1. Unearthed Arcana (and EPH), though part of the srd, are not part of core.

What is surprising is that this means 3 orcs are supposed to be overpowering for ANY class at level 1 (solo).

A bit offtopic, but I'm not sure, thats true...

Human Druid 1
Str 8 Dex 9 Con 16 Int 10 Wis 16 Cha 10 (25 pb)
HP 11
Spellfocus Conjuration, Augment Summoning
Riding Dog Animal Companion

1. Round: Cast Obscurring Mist, Move to a corner where no orc stands, have total concealment, direct your Riding Dog to attack nearest orc.
2. Round: Summon Wolf, turn the action advantage against the orcs

Or maybe
Human Wizard 1
Str 8 Dex 12 Con 16 Int 16 Wis 9 Cha 8 (25 pb)
HP 10
Spellfocus Enchantment, Improved Initiative
Toad familiar

Cast sleep (DC 15) vs the Will save of -2 of the orcs. This is abit of along shot, since you have to win initiative with is tricky in core without nerveskitter and you have only a little above 50% chance that all three orcs fail their saving throw.

But again it shows: IF someone is able to overcome obstacles in dnd, its the tier 1 casters, even at level 1.

[Lans]

Half Dragon has a LA +3 listed, so it is not level one...

You are mistaken, its level 1 with an ECL of 8.

F

Cast sleep (DC 15) vs the Will save of -2 of the orcs. This is abit of along shot, since you have to win initiative with is tricky in core without nerveskitter and you have only a little above 50% chance that all three orcs fail their saving throw.

But again it shows: IF someone is able to overcome obstacles in dnd, its the tier 1 casters, even at level 1.

Won't your plan go like this

Wizard wins initiative

"Ha ha orcs have crappy will saves, I will use sleep to put them under"

Starts casting sleep

Orcs go and attack

Wizard casts sleep

[Calthropstu]

You are mistaken, its level 1 with an ECL of 8.

F




Won't your plan go like this

Wizard wins initiative

"Ha ha orcs have crappy will saves, I will use sleep to put them under"

Starts casting sleep

Orcs go and attack

Wizard casts sleep

Problem is, it's a one shot deal. If any orc is still standing, that wizard is dead, guaranteed.

[Marlowe]

Well, that and the Wizard has to survive three attacks before the spell even goes off.

[Calthropstu]

Well, that and the Wizard has to survive three attacks before the spell even goes off.

LOL yup.1 round casting time forgot about that. Color spray is more viable, but they can position themselves so that only 1 can be hit. In short, wizard boy be screwed 8 ways from sunday.

[Harlekin]

You are mistaken, its level 1 with an ECL of 8.

if you are interpreting it like that, a great wyrm gold dragon fighter 1 is also level 1, but it gets a bit pointless, doesn't it? And it's less about a fighter fighting orcs and more about dragons (and half dragons) being cool.

Won't your plan go like this

Wizard wins initiative

"Ha ha orcs have crappy will saves, I will use sleep to put them under"

Starts casting sleep

Orcs go and attack

Wizard casts sleep

You're right, i missed the casting time of 1 round, that's a bit of a problem. But in a room this small (20x20 ft.) color spray would work.

[Harlekin]

Problem is, it's a one shot deal. If any orc is still standing, that wizard is dead, guaranteed.

The wizard has a toad familiar, so he has 10 HP and can survive one average hit from an orc. But you are right, the wizard is probably dead. My point was just, that the wizard has roughly the same chances as the (better) fighter builds we came up with and the druid would be able to solo this encounter with a respectable chance to win.

But that's not the topic of the thread so i apologize for derailing it.

[Pleh]

Half orc is core, too.

Being half human doesn't really satisfy the starting conditions anyway.

A bit offtopic, but I'm not sure, thats true...

Human Druid 1
Snip

Or maybe
Human Wizard 1
Snip

But again it shows: IF someone is able to overcome obstacles in dnd, its the tier 1 casters, even at level 1.

My point was that the CR is rated as Overpowering according to the level calculations, which means the authors intended this to be a brutal fight for ANY class at that level.

This means Fighter is not stronger than it was written to be (no matter how you build it, surviving an overpowering encounter by fighting through it is tough). If the T1 classes have a relatively easy time defeating an overpowering encounter (barring simple escape), that is an indication they are more powerful than intended by the authors.

It says the game makers expected a Druid to have just much trouble as the Fighter, because CR is irrespective of class, and thus, disparity as well.

TL;DR: numbers tell us Fighter is not weak. Other classes are too strong.

[Lans]

[QUOTE=Harlekin;21633286]if you are interpreting it like that, a great wyrm gold dragon fighter 1 is also level 1, but it gets a bit pointless, doesn't it? And it's less about a fighter fighting orcs and more about dragons (and half dragons) being cool./QUOTE]

Well, it is a level 1 fighter, but it is also a level 42 character over all so I think that goes against the spirit of the rules.

[Inevitability]

I didnt want my character to die though.

How does being a ghost mean the character has to die? At most, they died somewhere, once, in their backstory, before becoming a character. Besides, 'not dying' isn't the goal of the fighter, it's 'defeating three orcs'.

You are mistaken, its level 1 with an ECL of 8.

This is wrong in so many ways I don't even know where to begin.

First, a human half-dragon fighter 1 would be ECL 4, not 8.

Secondly, know what ECL stands for? Effective Character Level. An ECL 4 character is, by definition, level 4. At most, it's fighter level would be 1, but 'fighter level 1' and 'level 1 fighter' are different things.

[Lans]

How does being a ghost mean the character has to die? At most, they died somewhere, once, in their backstory, before becoming a character. Besides, 'not dying' isn't the goal of the fighter, it's 'defeating three orcs'.



This is wrong in so many ways I don't even know where to begin.

First, a human half-dragon fighter 1 would be ECL 4, not 8.

I left out it being half celestial. Thats why the it reads half dragon half fighter.

Secondly, know what ECL stands for? Effective Character Level. An ECL 4 character is, by definition, level 4. At most, it's fighter level would be 1, but 'fighter level 1' and 'level 1 fighter' are different things.

I am pretty sure your wrong on this but I don't feel like looking it up till I get some sleeep

[Pleh]

I am pretty sure your wrong on this but I don't feel like looking it up till I get some sleeep

No way. ECL is part of how you measure level when you include multiclassing.

So by the logic that ECL doesn't affect level, therefore we can solve the OP by building Fighter 1/Druid 19 because having ECL 20 doesn't affect this level 1 fighter.

[Psyren]

TL;DR: numbers tell us Fighter is not weak. Other classes are too strong.

This fight would likely be overpowering for a Wizard or Cleric too, unless all the orcs happened to be in color spray range and the wizard got really lucky. Are they not T1 as a result?

Druids at low levels are an outlier compared to other classes.

No way. ECL is part of how you measure level when you include multiclassing.

So by the logic that ECL doesn't affect level, therefore we can solve the OP by building Fighter 1/Druid 19 because having ECL 20 doesn't affect this level 1 fighter.

This I agree with.