Haley and Solt Lurkyurg

[Mightymosy]

If you go out of your way to humanise a character, some readers will find them human. If you go out of your way to make a character edgy, people are going to differ about how justified their actions were. I actually like those kind of characters, but I'm at something of a loss as to what response he was expecting.

Yep. Me neither, although in some cases we can read about his surprise, as evidenced in Jasdoif's community library.

Oh, yes. I can definitely see how Roy was handling Miko with maximum tact and sensitivity in that scene. I agree with the basic point that the gender belt would be an awkward analogy for MtF dysphoria, but I don't think that arc was a great vehicle for showcasing Roy's growth or respect for a woman's feelings.

The hotel arc has Roy, at the end, acknowleding to be in the wrong (if we agree is a different topic), apologizing to Miko, and then dismissing her for all the right reasons after that.

EDIT: Anyway, if I remember rightly, Julia was attempting to use her body to manipulate academic outcomes in her favour and Durkon is attempting to save her from abduction by a mass-murderer. If the worst Julia suffers is some mild scolding, I don't really see Durkon coming off as the bad guy.

It's not Julia who suffers but people who like female characters ;-)

I wouldn't say Durkon is a bad guy either, but his speech about disrespect for her own body is crap.
He could have said "Respect the academical authority and don't use your sexy body to try to cheat".
That would demand respect for the law. Respect for her body? Nonsense I say!

[Kish]

The hotel arc has Roy, at the end, acknowleding to be in the wrong (if we agree is a different topic), apologizing to Miko, and then dismissing her for all the right reasons after that.

Sure. If Roy and Miko are robots and the important thing to do is make sure procedure is being followed. If they're both people, then the hotel arc has Roy, at the end, act conciliatory for a few seconds before delivering a massive, hypocritical (when does Roy show concern for the dignity of sentient beings?) gut-punch.

[SilverCacaobean]

<snip>

Whatever my feelings about what was said here, this, unlike the last topic that derailed the thread, can actually be talked about in a new thread. This is the OotS forum after all and it's directly about something that happened in the comic. If it's posted as a topic, it'll also attract a lot more attention than poor Solt...
So I suggest starting a new topic to talk about that...

Sorry to be a wet blanket but imma make a last pathetic attempt to salvage the topic and if it fails, leave it, in disgrace:

(dug up from earlier so you don't have to dig yourself.)
What is the in-universe reason Haley and Celia didn't

Take Solt on the cart and carry him with Roy. This would not slow them down. See if they can get him to a Cleric. They were looking for a cleric anyway. When they get them to a cleric resurrect him if they have enough money not to gimp themselves by paying. (They could arrange for Belkar to pay like with the guard. Again if the order gets gimped by that, don't pay). If they couldn't pay then, they could pay after defeating Xykon. They could leave Solt's body behind the moment it becomes inconvenient (Not slightly inconvenient, mind you. Within reason).

If anyone has anything to say about the above plan (I doubt that) they should say it! Otherwise, maybe it's time for this thread to die.

Unmourned... and unloved.
Like...
: (beat)
Solt Lurkyurg

[Kish]

Pretty sure I did address that way back on Page 1, actually:

Haley is explicit: she takes no responsibility for Belkar's actions and grudges having to take responsibility for her own. You can disapprove of that attitude--and I'd probably agree--but that's what her attitude is.

As for why Celia didn't demand it, one can speculate, either (kindly to Celia) that she simply doesn't think in terms of resurrection without being prompted because she can't be resurrected herself, or (less kindly) that she considered all her responsibility for Solt discharged by conveying that Belkar should not be permitted to travel freely as their companion. Either way, both of them arrived by some method at: Solt Lorkyurg got murdered by this halfling whom I am either unable or unwilling to meaningfully punish, and maybe people closer to the crime than I should get Solt resurrected or maybe this never occurs to me, but for certain I have no more responsibility to arrange the resurrection of Solt than I do to arrange the resurrection of Isamu.

It's also worth noting, for the "Belkar can pay" part of your plan, that Belkar was, explicitly and openly, out of Haley's control at that point, and developing a rudimentary conscience was hundreds of strips in his future; he just grumbled at his candy bar getting pulled away from him, but if Haley had said "now you're paying thousands of gold to resurrect [what Belkar would think of as a meaningless scenery NPC whether Haley did or not]," Belkar's response would probably have been to kill Haley, casually.

[SilverCacaobean]

Pretty sure I did address that way back on Page 1, actually:

You did and it was a good argument, I just wondered if anyone else has anything else to say.
I considered listing the proposed solutions but preferred not to be long winded. I'll do it now.

The solutions were:
(real world)
- didn't cross Rich's mind
- Rich avoids too much discussion about resurrection
- boring
(in-universe)
- they said something off-panel, decide to leave him for some reason that doesn't get explored
- pointless (That's why I posted the above plan)
- they are supposed to appear callous (unlikely, by the admission of its poster)
- they don't feel responsible (Your suggestion)

I have no more responsibility to arrange the resurrection of Solt than I do to arrange the resurrection of Isamu.

They couldn't take Isamu himself since he was a ghoul, I thought but they do kill him later... Do they ever have access to his body, though? Still, It's true that they didn't take any members of the resistance that have died (if there are any), or people of the city that had been butchered. Tsukiko could not have turned them all undead, could she? (She left Miko but Haley never found her. I also doubt she would resurrect her, practical though it might have been. Might.) Even if she did, at some point they must have killed a ghoul and not have to run away afterwards... Do we ever see anything like that, though?

It's also worth noting, for the "Belkar can pay" part of your plan, that Belkar was, explicitly and openly, out of Haley's control at that point, and developing a rudimentary conscience was hundreds of strips in his future; he just grumbled at his candy bar getting pulled away from him, but if Haley had said "now you're paying thousands of gold to resurrect [what Belkar would think of as a meaningless scenery NPC whether Haley did or not]," Belkar's response would probably have been to kill Haley, casually.

That's a good point. If they were to try and make him pay, it would be prudent to wait for Roy to make him. They could have agreed to it behind his back easily, though. He's been known to fail listen checks.

[Lacuna Caster]

Sure. If Roy and Miko are robots and the important thing to do is make sure procedure is being followed. If they're both people, then the hotel arc has Roy, at the end, act conciliatory for a few seconds before delivering a massive, hypocritical (when does Roy show concern for the dignity of sentient beings?) gut-punch.

Yeah, this.

Whatever my feelings about what was said here, this, unlike the last topic that derailed the thread, can actually be talked about in a new thread. This is the OotS forum after all and it's directly about something that happened in the comic. If it's posted as a topic, it'll also attract a lot more attention than poor Solt...

Sorry man. There just isn't that much to say. I agree it's a little... odd that Celia doesn't suggest taking him in the cart, but I might interpret this as knowing she was already on thin ice with Haley and Belkar.

Actually, now that I think of it, there would be nothing to stop Celia snapping off a finger-bone from Roy's body, flying to Greysky or Cliffport, hiring a caster to use a Sending spell to contact Durkon, and delivering enough of Roy to the latter to cast Resurrection. Problem solved. Why does nobody consult me on these things?

[SilverCacaobean]

Actually, now that I think of it, there would be nothing to stop Celia snapping off a finger-bone from Roy's body, flying to Greysky or Cliffport, hiring a caster to use a Sending spell to contact Durkon, and delivering enough of Roy to the latter to cast Resurrection. Problem solved. Why does nobody consult me on these things?

...

Damn.
Now, I'll read the whole book thinking about this...
What we learned here today, is that they should start consulting you.

[Jasdoif]

Actually, now that I think of it, there would be nothing to stop Celia snapping off a finger-bone from Roy's body, flying to Greysky or Cliffport, hiring a caster to use a Sending spell to contact Durkon, and delivering enough of Roy to the latter to cast Resurrection. Problem solved.

Assuming that all worked as stated, how do you plan to get Haley and (possibly) Belkar to meet up with them?

[martianmister]

Assuming that all worked as stated, how do you plan to get Haley and (possibly) Belkar to meet up with them?

They'll wait for Celia and others in someplace safe?

[Lacuna Caster]

They'll wait for Celia and others in someplace safe?

Well, I was going to suggest that Kylee Moonchild and Pelgar Sourbough will make capable additions to the team, but that works too.

[Jasdoif]

They'll wait for Celia and others in someplace safe?

What's the point of Celia playing courier-mortician, then? The sending alone would be enough to get Durkon directions to the "someplace safe" to perform the resurrection there.

[SilverCacaobean]

Well, I was going to suggest that Kylee Moonchild and Pelgar Sourbough will make capable additions to the team, but that works too.

I guess that stroke of genius you had before had to be countered by a regular stroke that resulted in this idea, if only to preserve the balance of nature . I knew militant neutral druids ruled the world.

What's the point of Celia playing courier-mortician, then? The sending alone would be enough to get Durkon directions to the "someplace safe" to perform the resurrection there.

She'd have to be courier anyway to get to someone for the sending, so why not take a fingerbone, or something, with her? Roy getting raised sooner can only be a plus.

[goodpeople25]

And Haley would manage to warn her that greysky would be at best a significant risk with less chance of success and at worst certain failure in a way that would work in this scenario, how?

Greysky has alot of risks, from being relived of the money for the sending (where would she get this anyway?) and possibly even the finger bone either unknowingly or with risk of bodily harm to the sending being marked up past her price range.

Plus flying monsters exist and might be considered by Celia to be an obstacle she can't best on her own.

[Jasdoif]

She'd have to be courier anyway to get to someone for the sending, so why not take a fingerbone, or something, with her? Roy getting raised sooner can only be a plus.

...no, I don't think Celia flying all the way from Greysky/Cliffport to the Azure City fleet to meet up with Durkon, and then get them all back to wherever Haley and Belkar hopefully still are; constitutes a "plus", or necessarily "Roy getting raised sooner". Not compared to simply getting them all back to wherever Haley and Belkar hopefully are (and more than likely Celia returned to).

Well, I guess if you held an irrational hatred of Celia and wanted her to do a lot of needless work just because you wanted to see if she suffered, it might seem like an improvement....I don't, however.

[Lacuna Caster]

I guess that stroke of genius you had before had to be countered by a regular stroke that resulted in this idea, if only to preserve the balance of nature . I knew militant neutral druids ruled the world.

Is no-one else stoked to meet Kylee and Pelgar? Get them aboard, and we could introduce them to the hilarious Baron Hojos and lethal-yet-sultry Michiko Nishiwaki. (Who actually exists! Thank you, internet Gods.)

She'd have to be courier anyway to get to someone for the sending, so why not take a fingerbone, or something, with her? Roy getting raised sooner can only be a plus.

Greysky has alot of risks, from being relived of the money for the sending (where would she get this anyway?) and possibly even the finger bone either unknowingly or with risk of bodily harm to the sending being marked up past her price range.

Eh... given the local thieves' guild had a bounty on Haley's head, Celia's arguably safer going alone. (Technically, raising Roy at a sufficient distance from Belkar would trigger the MoJ, but I'd have to consider that a minor wrinkle.)

Well, I guess if you held an irrational hatred of Celia and wanted her to do a lot of needless work just because you wanted to see if she suffered, it might seem like an improvement....I don't, however.

EDIT: Hmm. Fair point. Well, I'm all in favour of eliminating redundant steps. And characters. And plot arcs. And suboptimal feat choices.

[SilverCacaobean]

...no, I don't think Celia flying all the way from Greysky/Cliffport to the Azure City fleet to meet up with Durkon, and then get them all back to wherever Haley and Belkar hopefully still are; constitutes a "plus", or necessarily "Roy getting raised sooner". Not compared to simply getting them all back to wherever Haley and Belkar hopefully are (and more than likely Celia returned to).

Well, I guess if you held an irrational hatred of Celia and wanted her to do a lot of needless work just because you wanted to see if she suffered, it might seem like an improvement....I don't, however.

She could carry a fingerbone in case the cleric she finds for the sending can also cast resurrection. It's not like it weights her down.

[Jasdoif]

She could carry a fingerbone in case the cleric she finds for the sending can also cast resurrection.

And then after she fronts the added cost for that cleric to cast resurrection...they still have to meet up with Durkon anyway.

It's not like it weights her down.

...I suspect being an accessory to the mutilation of what remains of her boyfriend's remains might not be something she would take casually.

[Lacuna Caster]

I'm so happy we're already invested in this new plot direction.

[goodpeople25]

Is no-one else stoked to meet Kylee and Pelgar? Get them aboard, and we could introduce them to the hilarious Baron Hojos and lethal-yet-sultry Michiko Nishiwaki. (Who actually exists! Thank you, internet Gods.)



Eh... given the local thieves' guild had a bounty on Haley's head, Celia's arguably safer going alone. (Technically, raising Roy at a sufficient distance from Belkar would trigger the MoJ, but I'd have to consider that a minor wrinkle.)


EDIT: Hmm. Fair point. Well, I'm all in favour of eliminating redundant steps. And characters. And plot arcs. And suboptimal feat choices.

It dosen't really have anything to do with being targeted specifically it's going to greysky in general. I'm trying to judge this on the higher end of Celia's intellgence, common sense and self reliance and not having unforeseeable stuff like her mentioning meetinh Haley or something to a thieves guild member.

[Mightymosy]

[...]

...I suspect being an accessory to the mutilation of what remains of her boyfriend's remains might not be something she would take casually.

Well, shed did react more calmly to Roy's death than Haley had anticipated, and is traveling with "him" as a rotten corpse, so maybe that won't be much of a problem....


Honestly, I think the plan doesn't sound too bad. Yeah, Belkar might suffer, but after the Solt Lurkyurg incident, that might be something Celia doesn't care about much when compared to resurrecting her boyfriend...

Flying. The small sister of Teleport. In creating plotholes, that is:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H11kCBhldbk



Another thought: We have learned now that Haley can use wands as a rogue.
Are there Resurrection wands?

[Jasdoif]

Honestly, I think the plan doesn't sound too bad. Yeah, Belkar might suffer, but after the Solt Lurkyurg incident, that might be something Celia doesn't care about much when compared to resurrecting her boyfriend...

I remain unconvinced that the part of it where Celia is supposed to remove and carry a piece of Roy in case she can pay for someone other than Durkon to resurrect him, when the main point is already to get a message to Durkon so he and the rest of the Order of the Stick can meet up with them, is at all worthwhile. Simply getting the message to Durkon and then regrouping with Haley and Belkar should be sufficient

OK, actually it'd be even better for Haley, Belkar and Celia to head somewhere to get sending cast so Durkon can find them; since that keeps them them all together and minimizes the risk to Celia, but we kinda saw that already.

Another thought: We have learned now that Haley can use wands as a rogue.
Are there Resurrection wands?

Wands? No. Wands can only hold spells up to 4th level; resurrection is 7th level spell. (Even if the spell level cap was ignored, a wand of resurrection would still cost 568,250gp...finding one for sale would be an ordeal even if the Order could reasonably afford it.)

Getting a staff of life would work, but that 155,750gp price tag is still pretty hefty.

[SilverCacaobean]

It dosen't really have anything to do with being targeted specifically it's going to greysky in general. I'm trying to judge this on the higher end of Celia's intellgence, common sense and self reliance and not having unforeseeable stuff like her mentioning meetinh Haley or something to a thieves guild member.

You know this is the most legitimate concern.

Ok, the fingerbone thing would have probably been useless (I'd still carry it around, just in case. I don't know that much about resurrection but couldn't they have simply ignored the golem if they'd had had a fingerbone around? Get Roy raised with a fingerbone while his body is a Golem. Can it happen? A golem isn't undead right?) and the dangers of flying to a place negligible (the animal messenger made it. Haley also very easily killed it with arrows without sneak attack damage. So the bird had a reasonably safe trip. Don't forget fast, too, which is the reason for Celia to go like that in the first place.)but I can see this ruining everything.

Between Haley's unwillingness to tell Celia why not go to Greysky city and Celia's underestimating the vague warnings of Haley and the dangers of the mortal realm in general, she could easily mention Haley's name in Greysky city... Then of course the thieves guild would capture her and use the sending to send an ultimatum to Haley... and *BOOM*. Slightly different Greysky City plot arc... I mean extra speed won't solve the issues that caused the plot arc in the first place...

[martianmister]

Why everybody is talking about Greysky? If that was the plan, Celia would go to somewhere like Cliffport to send a message.

[goodpeople25]

Because the original mention (to my knowledge) was going to Greysky or Cliffport. (And my initial comment involved asking how Haley would tell Celia not to go to Cliffport and be listened to, and if she wasn't told not to go there even going there shortly or indirectly and then avoiding it could involve pickpocketing or muggings)

[SilverCacaobean]

Why everybody is talking about Greysky? If that was the plan, Celia would go to somewhere like Cliffport to send a message.

Well, Greysky is closer and it's also on the way to cliffport. Celia would encounter it sooner. I don't see why she wouldn't choose to go there, like she did in the strip. Haley would have warned her not to go there but would have not told her why (also like in the strip). And Celia wanting to get Roy raised fast, would go anyway (also like in the strip).

What I'm saying is the Greysky city arc was caused by character flaws (Haley's unreasonable secrecy and Celia's not heeding the warning of someone more experienced). Unless Haley was willing to tell her why she had to avoid Greysky city, which she is not, as we have seen, Celia would pretend to agree to a plan to go to Cliffport but make a stop there to see if she could find a cleric...

[Lacuna Caster]

Well, Greysky is closer and it's also on the way to cliffport. Celia would encounter it sooner. I don't see why she wouldn't choose to go there, like she did in the strip. Haley would have warned her not to go there but would have not told her why (also like in the strip). And Celia wanting to get Roy raised fast, would go anyway (also like in the strip).

What I'm saying is the Greysky city arc was caused by character flaws (Haley's unreasonable secrecy and Celia's not heeding the warning of someone more experienced). Unless Haley was willing to tell her why she had to avoid Greysky city, which she is not, as we have seen, Celia would pretend to agree to a plan to go to Cliffport but make a stop there to see if she could find a cleric...

In fairness to Celia, Haley hadn't done much to indicate particular wisdom on her part, regardless of experience.

The basic underlying problem here is that death is supposed to be a big dramatic event in conventional narratives and baseline D&D rules tend to make it only slightly less convenient than a severe hangover. So some fairly tortured happenstance has to be employed to keep Roy and Durkon separated when solutions to the problem would ordinarily be trivial. (I suspect this also has something to do with Shojo and Therkla declining resurrection, despite compelling contrary motives, and why Durkon's services have been removed from the team.)

In a similar sense, the question of which city is closer is kind of backwards- the Giant basically invents geography to suit the plot and not vice versa. I would suggest, however, that if they had time to make a detour to Sunken Valley and pay for a probably-useless Oracular consultation, then sending a magic telegraph from Cliffport doesn't seem unworkable.

[SilverCacaobean]

In fairness to Celia, Haley hadn't done much to indicate particular wisdom on her part, regardless of experience.

Can't argue with that. However if she had given the warnings of Haley any heed, vague as they were, she could have thought: maybe I should just take a fingerbone to the city, not the whole corpse. I imagine a fingerbone golem would have been a lot less trouble.

A little corpse mutilation goes a long way. D&d is morbid like that.

The basic underlying problem here is that death is supposed to be a big dramatic event in conventional narratives and baseline D&D rules tend to make it only slightly less convenient than a severe hangover. So some fairly tortured happenstance has to be employed to keep Roy and Durkon separated when solutions to the problem would ordinarily be trivial. (I suspect this also has something to do with Shojo and Therkla declining resurrection, despite compelling contrary motives, and why Durkon's services have been removed from the team.)

C'mon what happened with Roy's corpse isn't that far-fetched. They lost a very important battle against an epic lich. The miracle is that they weren't all killed, not that they got separated. As for the 3-months of not getting Roy resurrected afterwards, in the book commentary it is stated that they were there to show how unmotivated the Order are without Roy.

As for Shojo and Therkla. If Shojo came back Hinjo wouldn't let him keep the throne. His presence would only undermine Hinjo's authority and he was in heaven, too. Why come back? Therkla... kind of committed suicide over an infatuation... Sad but it happens.

In a similar sense, the question of which city is closer is kind of backwards- the Giant basically invents geography to suit the plot and not vice versa. I would suggest, however, that if they had time to make a detour to Sunken Valley and pay for a probably-useless Oracular consultation, then sending a magic telegraph from Cliffport doesn't seem unworkable.

Well, it would still be closer. It is of note that the detour they made was because they thought that the oracle was a high level powerful cleric (partly due to the accurate prediction of the future, partly because of the memory charm). It's just that after they arrived to find he's not, they decided to use his services so the trip is not a complete waste.

[Mightymosy]

Resurrection & Inconvenience:
It's not about what happened to Roy's body, it's how difficult it seems to be to find a cleric who can cast Ressurection, considering
- adventure parties all probably contain one at least
- it would make sense for cities to have resurrection services

At least Durkon must have learned Resurrection somewhere, but now we have learned that the northen clerics as a whole are pretty low level. They couldn't even afford a Restoration for Durkon's mother. Which is okay, I guess, but it seems a little weird nevertheless.

V's old master Aarindarius seemed more powerful than V, which fit.



Suddenly, what the OotS team has available in power seems to be very rare in the world, when in the beginning, they were just some random dungeon crawling fools.

It generally would make some sense, since they leveled up a lot since the beginning, but it seems strange in regard to Ressurection, which Durkon had access to for quite some time...


So, I'm not exactly crying "Foul!" over the narrative, but when I read the story, I often thought "Well, what a surprise! Isn't that conveniently inconvenient!"

TL&DR: Resurrection is a story killer, and if you look closely you can see the bandaids that tie the story together that wants to use it for its protagonist(s?) regardless.


Celia:

I like the idea of Celia carrying a fingerbone of Roy around, and taking it to, for example, Cliffport.
It's logical and I still don't see any good reason why she wouldn't do so.
Isn't Ressurection more difficult the longer the victim is dead? I thought I had read that somewhere, and if so, it would make even more sense to use flying to speed up.
That's why I wrote that Flying is also a storykiller.
(BTW we had a flying race in our old roleplaying games, and they were clearly OP)

But wait, it's even better! Celia can teleport/planeshift to the place where she lives, and - even if there are no clerics there either - go directly from that place to cliffport. Thus avoiding any long overland flight where she might encounter, well, random encounters.


Aside: It's actually funny that you only need a small part of the body for Resurrection. If I invent an roleplay campaign one day, I might have to use the idea of distributing body parts of some legend, for a race for resurrection. Sounds interesting.

[Mightymosy]

[...]Wands? No. Wands can only hold spells up to 4th level; resurrection is 7th level spell. (Even if the spell level cap was ignored, a wand of resurrection would still cost 568,250gp...finding one for sale would be an ordeal even if the Order could reasonably afford it.)

Getting a staff of life would work, but that 155,750gp price tag is still pretty hefty.

Cool!

Is there any strategic reason that V is not using any of these staffs? If I was V, I certainly would try to get one or more.
I'm not complaining that the OotS isn't using them - the story's fine without them, especially since readers like me wouldn't even know these staffs existed ;-)
I'm just curious.

[Jasdoif]

Isn't Ressurection more difficult the longer the victim is dead?

Resurrection doesn't work if the creature's been dead longer than 10 years per caster level (quite a jump from raise dead's limit of one day per caster level). Since resurrection is a 7th-level spell, clerics first get access to it at level 13; I think 130 years should be enough of a buffer that having Celia rush around isn't necessary.

But wait, it's even better! Celia can teleport/planeshift to the place where she lives, and - even if there are no clerics there either - go directly from that place to cliffport. Thus avoiding any long overland flight where she might encounter, well, random encounters.

Oddly enough, we've never actually seen her planeshift or teleport under her own power, so it's not clear it's a personal ability she has (unlike Sabine). Further, Celia mentioned in adjacent sentences that plane shifting and teleporting would work from within the Cloister to outside of it, so I find it difficult to believe she wouldn't have recommended them if they were options she had available.

---

Is there any strategic reason that V is not using any of these staffs? If I was V, I certainly would try to get one or more.
I'm not complaining that the OotS isn't using them - the story's fine without them, especially since readers like me wouldn't even know these staffs existed ;-)
I'm just curious.

Not strategic, really, but:

Because there's absolutely no narrative purpose for it other than to satisfy people who want the characters to more accurately reflect common D&D player strategies, and I am actively seeking to disappoint such people so they stop expecting that. Basically, the fact that "every decent player" does something has become a reason for me to NOT do it now, just to try to get people to stop asking.

Given that I've never listed what spells V has, what possible difference would it make for him/her to cast some of them from memory and some of them from a staff, other than making more work for me to have to explain to the readers, "This spell came from the staff!"?

Also, because it would be a pain in the ass to have to keep track of one more large equipment object in every panel V appears in. Is he/she holding it? Where did he/she leave it? Which hand was he/she holding it in last panel? Malack's staff has turned into an annoyance in that regard, hence the reason he put it down right before the fight began. I'm not about to make things harder for myself for no benefit.