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Thread: DMG2 Business Tweaks
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2017-01-29, 02:42 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2012
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DMG2 Business Tweaks
Overall I like nearly all 3.5 D&D rules, I rarely house rule things. But I have tried looking at the businesses rules in dmg2 multiple times and they always seem off.
It just seems unprofitable?
A high risk, high resource, high capital business in a metropolis costs 164,000gp to start. To make that investment back in 5 years the profit check is DC 80. That's only 2,750gp a month.
A low risk, low resource, low capital business in a rural area costs 3,000gp to start. To make that investment back in 5 years the profit check is DC 35. That's only 50gp a month.
So the owner of criminal orginaztion or say a shipping company only makes 2,750gp a month? Assuming a very high profit check, that is a +1 full plate and not even a +1 weapon.
If I'm misunderstanding the rules or doing my math wrong please correct me. If you think that is a reasonable income for that DC or position of power please elaborate.
My tweaks:
The low end seems mostly fine, with these tweaks I think the whole system works. I would love feedback.
1. On the profit check modifiers table replace high resources with high capital and low resources with low capital.
2. Multiply profit results by 2x for medium resources, 3x for high resources.
Capital is supposed to represent static costs, taxes fees etc at start up. But it makes sense these would impose a penalty even later, taxes in the area aren't suddenly going to away.
Resources on the otherhand more workers, more inventory normally means more potential sales or losses.
The example above changes:
A high risk, high resource, high capital business in a metropolis costs 164,000gp to start. To make that investment back in 5 years the profit check is DC 44. That's now 2,850gp a month. A DC of 80 like before would be 8,250gp a month.
I have not tried this out for all the different businesses but it sure seems more reasonable.
Feedback is always welcomed.
Notes:
I have looked at PF Ultimate Campaign Downtime, I like where they went, but I would prefer to stick close to dmg2.
There is an old thread on gianitp boards titled "Businesses and Organizations can we fix them", that details some of the issues with the system. I could not link to it because of my post count and I did not want to necro it.The party come to a town befallen by hysteria
Rogue: So what's in the general store?
DM: What are you looking for?
Rogue: Whatevers in the store.
DM: Like what?
Rogue: Everything.
DM: There is a lot of stuff.
Rogue: Is there a cart outside?
DM: (rolls) Yes.
Rogue: We'll take it all, we may need it for the greater good.
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2017-01-29, 02:53 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2004
- Location
- Lincoln, RI
- Gender
Re: DMG2 Business Tweaks
Considering that a common laborer can survive on 3 gp per month. 2750gp per month seems very wealthy to me.
Last edited by nyjastul69; 2017-01-29 at 02:55 AM.
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2017-01-29, 03:06 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2016
Re: DMG2 Business Tweaks
I think the point is the difficulty of making your investment back is to difficult. And I agree with that 100% it's why in games where players show an interest in making there own company I generally home brew some simple rules depending on the campaign style.
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2017-01-29, 03:08 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2014
- Location
- California
- Gender
Re: DMG2 Business Tweaks
You can take 10 on profit checks. That means you can guarantee a profit every month. Your business will never die. It will continue to return dividends as long as you are around to maintain it. Who cares if it's hard to make your investment back in 5 years? You have a lifetime. Do you know how long an elf lives? Do you know how much profit that elf is going to make if they start a business when they reach adulthood and maintain it into old age? It's a lot of money.
Rhymes with "Protracted."
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2017-01-29, 03:10 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2004
- Location
- Lincoln, RI
- Gender
Re: DMG2 Business Tweaks
I'm unsure where the expected 5yr return comes into play. Is that a real life thing? Is it stated in the rules that that is the expected return? Applying RL models to fantasy games is fraught with peril. Enter at your own risk.
Last edited by nyjastul69; 2017-01-29 at 03:30 AM.
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2017-01-29, 07:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2009
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Re: DMG2 Business Tweaks
It's not meant to be a model of how NPCs work. It's meant to be a playable tool for PCs who want to run a business. As such, one of the design goals is "subtly encourage them to go dungeon delving or some other form of heroics instead of messing around with Fantasy Spreadsheet Simulator.
Basically, you're trying to use it for something that it wasn't intended for.
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2017-01-29, 07:23 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2006
- Location
- Oregon
- Gender
Re: DMG2 Business Tweaks
I don't care how long it takes to make returns, I just think it costs too much to start up to begin with. Or rather, that some of businesses should require almost no start-up capital at all but do because reasons. You have to make up reasons: I figure most of the start-up cost for businesses in cities is buying out another business in order to get some actual market share, otherwise you never get enough customers to enter the business profit rules and only get your personal profession check income. And of course if you don't have to pay for the business, say because you inherited or ursurped it, then you're pure profit.
It's also not something that should be applied to every person individually. Most people in the world don't own their own businesses: they work for someone else, often the king who owns all the land by default. Use sparingly.
Also the random event table id in that "short list of extremely specific things" style that you can only roll on so many times before it goes stale. I could swear I had some notes. Ah, previous thread:
That's ignoring the event table though. You also need either a good chunk extra of cash in the bank, a good +5 more more buffer past taking 10 to hit the minimum DC, or both, since the event table has a ton of penalties and repair costs that don't care about the size or cost of the business, pay or die. With enough buffer and investment you eventually get big enough that you don't care about the penalties and it's just an annoyance that occasionally gives you more permanent profit bonuses.Fizban's Tweaks and Brew: Google Drive (PDF), Thread
A collection of over 200 pages of individually small bans, tweaks, brews, and rule changes, usable piecemeal or nearly altogether, and even some convenient lists. Everything I've done that I'd call done enough to use in one place (plus a number of things I'm working on that aren't quite done, of course).
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2017-01-29, 04:08 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2012
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Re: DMG2 Business Tweaks
Glad to see there are people familiar with the system.
This is actually what I think they got right, it explains why not everyone owns their own farm or shop. Most low level characters would need to get a loan to start with. As such most just farm some king's land as you pointed out. I did read your previous post before making this thread and I do agree that "Encounter" table was very boring and could get repetitive quick.
Yes that was the basic flaw that stuck out to me when I was going over the rules. I prefer not to home brew, normally I'll modify something or "DM tweak" the numbers causing less headaches for me. It is less applying RL models to a fantasy game and more logical RP. How long of a term will the moneylender give you to pay him back? Or how long will someone part with a large sum of gold before they decide it is better spent elsewhere.
3gp a month vs 2750 is a large wealth disparity and I understand elves are long lived, or businesses can be passed down. I agree that there is a lot of gold to be made, I guess I just feel that number should be larger.
The text in the DMG2 seems to refer to NPCs at times and to characters generally in the business text. I normally run my important NPCs as PCs and feel most rules should apply fairly to all characters. Maybe these rules weren't meant for NPCs but my modifications assume they would be used that way.
Part of me wonders when the NPC pays the player to exterminate the rats in his barn, clear the road of bandits, or destroy a competing business where does that compensation come from if they aren't producing a profit. It also justifies all them fancy castles and balls that rich folks through in the game. They may make a lot of money but they probably spend a lot as well.
Is there any feedback the actual formula changes? Did I miss something, I understand Fizban's point on capital being too high but leaving that as is was intentional.
Thanks again.The party come to a town befallen by hysteria
Rogue: So what's in the general store?
DM: What are you looking for?
Rogue: Whatevers in the store.
DM: Like what?
Rogue: Everything.
DM: There is a lot of stuff.
Rogue: Is there a cart outside?
DM: (rolls) Yes.
Rogue: We'll take it all, we may need it for the greater good.
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2017-01-30, 01:09 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2008
- Location
- Xin-Shalast
- Gender