Is most of the better Fantasy fiction being written by women lately?

[lord_khaine]

The only times I really was annoyed was with a few of her stories where she really tended to grind on the girl power stuff and other moralistic messages. The Oathbond series, By the Sword, that stuff. Where a big part of the focus is on a single aspect of the character, or in the last herald mage series, on his sexual preferences. I do admit that romantic pairings is often a rather sizeable fragment of the stories, but I honestly never minded that. There was generally enough action or mystery going on that I didnt feel like I was reading a romance novel.

I dont mind a bit of romance either, but in the book i stopped with it really felt like one. And it kinda annoyed me that the entire deal with the evil kingdom were resolved in about a chapter or so. Until then it had almost purely been relationship stuff.

Im not sure I understand the whole "just know things" issue, can you give examples? Normally I recall her as doing a fairly decent job establishing early on that characters have such and such a background that becomes handy towards the end. Its rarely an out of the blue thing. Unless you mean foresight flashes and such.

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Best example i can think of is when the series big bad, Falconbane, is at last freed from the spirit possesing him by some random dude randomly introduced. And he then meet the sworn enemies he have tormented for god knows how long or in what way. But they can just look into his eyes and see "oh.. this is not the monster we are looking for. No explanation needed, we wont try and disembowel him"

[An Enemy Spy]

I confess to quitting about a quarter of the way through book five, but I've not heard a single spoiler that disabuses me of my point. The process is just relentless, and if you all are actually expecting the endlessly escalating cycles of vengeance to subside any time before the Others get in and mercy-kill this miserable world, I don't know what to tell you.

Like I say, the moral of the story is explicitly spelled out, repeatedly and at length. The world is awful; be awful yourself and it won't hurt so much.

And now you're just making things up. For example, who are these heroes that become villains? Jon? Nope. Dany?. Nope. Tyrion? Nope. Sansa? Nope. Brienne? Nope. Davos? Nope. Arya? At worst she's a Punsher-like anithero.

The only true example I can think of is Catelyn, and I can't imagine that George wrote her to be the moral example we're meant to follow, what with her being a horrible murderous zombie and all.

If you don't like the dark tone of ASoIaF, that's perfectly okay. The series obviously isn't meant to appeal to everyone. Just don't lie about it.

[DomaDoma]

I think of villainy versus heroism as being a matter of what you do, not whether you chew the scenery about it like Gregor Clegane does. So on that basis, you're left with a) heroes who only succeed when they do evil, and b) heroes who are left to mope about doing nothing but stare at the surrounding awfulness for chapters on end.

[An Enemy Spy]

I think of villainy versus heroism as being a matter of what you do, not whether you chew the scenery about it like Gregor Clegane does. So on that basis, you're left with a) heroes who only succeed when they do evil, and b) heroes who are left to mope about doing nothing but stare at the surrounding awfulness for chapters on end.

Provide examples from the text. Actual quotes, not just your skewed version of it. I want to see actual lines of text lifted straight from the book of the heroes only succeeding by doing evil things.

[Eldan]

Yeah, that. I can't think of a single hero doing much evil.

[DomaDoma]

Will need to hit a library first, so: tomorrow evening. Side debate adjourned.

[cobaltstarfire]

There might be more women publishing now than in the past, because it's easier now. Haven't woman authors had to sometimes resort to pseudonyms in the past because of the notion that buyers won't pick up a book with a woman's name on it? I'd hazard to say that there aren't more, it's just now the women are less likely to be rendered invisible for one reason or another.

I don't think women are inherently better equipped to write though, the whole women are better with words/writing thing is a self reinforcing social construct, and doesn't do service to men or women. (I'm not denying that the existence of this stereotype is causing there to be more women engages in reading/writing, just that it's an idea that needs to be broken, not repeated as fact)

That said an authors attributes aren't really what I care about when choosing what books to read, their name alone can't tell me anything about the story, sometimes even when it's an author I know. That's what the pretty covers and blurb on the back are for.

[An Enemy Spy]

I see lots of books written by women and lots of books written by men, and the only pattern I've noticed in quality is that good writers are good and bad writers are bad. It's got nothing to do with sex or gender.

[Traab]

I dont mind a bit of romance either, but in the book i stopped with it really felt like one. And it kinda annoyed me that the entire deal with the evil kingdom were resolved in about a chapter or so. Until then it had almost purely been relationship stuff.

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Best example i can think of is when the series big bad, Falconbane, is at last freed from the spirit possesing him by some random dude randomly introduced. And he then meet the sworn enemies he have tormented for god knows how long or in what way. But they can just look into his eyes and see "oh.. this is not the monster we are looking for. No explanation needed, we wont try and disembowel him"

You mean,

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the random dude introduced at least a book earlier that has a historical connection to this guy and is well established as a pretty badass mage? I mean, the entire plan to take down falconsbane involved the spirit locked inside him feeding them information and being able to influence falconsbane when needed to set him up and they were pretty specifically going to try and free him, though there were no promises he would survive. And while he does fall into the dumb bad guy category, we even learn WHY. Its not like people treat him as some omnipotent villain who we readers see is a moron. The good guys spot the massive holes in his planning and learn WHY he acts that way. I actually found that part to be interesting. Certainly far more interesting than ancar and his "EVERYONE CHARGE AT THE ENEMY TILL THEY DIE!" battle tactics.

[Coidzor]

I'm pretty sure by weight and by volume, there's more women writing and reading these days.

Couldn't tell you why, exactly, since it seems to be one of those areas that scientists and those who fund them don't want to touch with a ten foot pole.

[lord_khaine]

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the random dude introduced at least a book earlier that has a historical connection to this guy and is well established as a pretty badass mage? I mean, the entire plan to take down falconsbane involved the spirit locked inside him feeding them information and being able to influence falconsbane when needed to set him up and they were pretty specifically going to try and free him, though there were no promises he would survive. And while he does fall into the dumb bad guy category, we even learn WHY. Its not like people treat him as some omnipotent villain who we readers see is a moron. The good guys spot the massive holes in his planning and learn WHY he acts that way. I actually found that part to be interesting. Certainly far more interesting than ancar and his "EVERYONE CHARGE AT THE ENEMY TILL THEY DIE!" battle tactics.

Yeah, i felt he were more randomly pulled out of the blue than anything else. "oh here is btw, a wizard as good or better than the one that got everyone quivering in their soles.
Also, he were certainly incompetent. I dont recall what he really managed to accomplish. But it does not make taking him down sound like an accomplishment on its own.
Though how and why he were taken down is not one of the things i called out as eventually driving me off the serie.

[tomandtish]

I actually ended up deciding those Valdemar books were bad. Or certainly not to the taste i had grown to like. Main complaint is incompetent villains. As well as 95% of the book focusing on relationship drama, with the suposed plotline then being resolved in a single chapter at the end. Oh.. and all the coincidences, where people just.. know things.. because it would be inconvenient otherwise.

The only times I really was annoyed was with a few of her stories where she really tended to grind on the girl power stuff and other moralistic messages. The Oathbond series, By the Sword, that stuff. Where a big part of the focus is on a single aspect of the character, or in the last herald mage series, on his sexual preferences. I do admit that romantic pairings is often a rather sizeable fragment of the stories, but I honestly never minded that. There was generally enough action or mystery going on that I didnt feel like I was reading a romance novel.

Im not sure I understand the whole "just know things" issue, can you give examples? Normally I recall her as doing a fairly decent job establishing early on that characters have such and such a background that becomes handy towards the end. Its rarely an out of the blue thing. Unless you mean foresight flashes and such.

Having read a lot of Valdemar, I'd argue that the bigger issue there is not so much anything is "bad" versus it starts getting repetitive. Once you've read two or three of the trilogies in Valdemar, you generally aren't reading anything substantially different in each one. Not quite as bad as Eddings, but still very obvious.

I prefer a lot of her collaborations actually. Obsidian Trilogy is excellent (with James Mallory).

[Blackhawk748]

To be honest, I have not read much in the way of recent fantasy at all. With the helpful note that I absolutely despise George R.R. Martin, particularly his division of every human action into villainy or folly and his clear preference of the former... what's good lately?

Son of the Black Sword was a fun read for me.

I'm pretty sure by weight and by volume, there's more women writing and reading these days.

Couldn't tell you why, exactly, since it seems to be one of those areas that scientists and those who fund them don't want to touch with a ten foot pole.

They have done studies, they just get yelled at when they post their findings. Id say it may have to do with that a) it seems like more women than men are English Majors (this was my impression in college), b) Women are starting to outnumber men in college (i think in New York it was like 5/3 in favor of women) and c) Women are now publishing under their own name.

[Traab]

Obsidian trilogy, yes. Thats a very good series. I guess they wrote a follow up trilogy, but I only read the first book and since it was a new release, by the time the next one came out I had lost all interest.

[Knaight]

Back on topic - it easily could be the case. If the field is restricted to notable authors who produce good stuff (on the basis of the rest not being better fantasy fiction or being low impact enough that it can't be quantified easily) there's few enough authors that the balance could easily tip one way or the other. An exact 50-50 split is unlikely, and there are definitely a number of women writing fantasy right now who are extremely capable writers. I'd need to spend some time with a big database and more time reading to say more than "it could be" though.

[lord_khaine]

Having read a lot of Valdemar, I'd argue that the bigger issue there is not so much anything is "bad" versus it starts getting repetitive. Once you've read two or three of the trilogies in Valdemar, you generally aren't reading anything substantially different in each one. Not quite as bad as Eddings, but still very obvious.

I prefer a lot of her collaborations actually. Obsidian Trilogy is excellent (with James Mallory).

It could very well be the main problem. I just know i grew tired with the serie after 4-5 books.

But thanks for the recomendation of the Obsidian Book. Perhaps a co-author were all that was needet.

[Corvus]

Currently the whole literary industry is dominated by women so it is little wonder that a lot of current fantasy is being produced by women. The majority of readers, authors, agents and publishing execs are now women.

I work in a school library and I see far more female readers borrowing, and by far the majority of new books we get in are written by women.

It is actually getting to be a bit of a concern just how little boys are reading at the moment.

[lord_khaine]

Currently the whole literary industry is dominated by women so it is little wonder that a lot of current fantasy is being produced by women. The majority of readers, authors, agents and publishing execs are now women.

I work in a school library and I see far more female readers borrowing, and by far the majority of new books we get in are written by women.

It is actually getting to be a bit of a concern just how little boys are reading at the moment.

Hmm.. the biggest names in fantasy i recall reading, Butcher, Sanderson, Erikson, is stil men though. Any females writhing anything in that sort of style?

Else, is it anything out of the ordinary? Is it not always girls who have been reading the most? Is the only new thing not just that they have begun to move into fantasy in larger numbers?
(they are for that matter welcome to do so

[ngilop]

If you haven't already, you should try Brandon Sanderson's Stornlight Archive. It's basically the antithesis to Game of Thrones. It even plays the paladin trope entirely straight and makes it work.

(If you read it though, read Warbreaker before the second Strormlight book. Just trust me on this...)

Spoiler: MIND BLOWN

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WHAT?!?!?!

I absolutely abhor that unsavory GRRM and any of his works. You are telling me there is a series of novels such as you have described is unto a light shining in the darkness of hopelessness to me.

Most everything I have picked up since the damn TV show started to me has just seemed SOFAI "inpsired" and to me that means even more crap than the latest RA Slavatore trilogy and thats saying a lot from me.

What order do I read the book(s)?

[Knaight]

Spoiler: MIND BLOWN

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WHAT?!?!?!

I absolutely abhor that unsavory GRRM and any of his works. You are telling me there is a series of novels such as you have described is unto a light shining in the darkness of hopelessness to me.

Most everything I have picked up since the damn TV show started to me has just seemed SOFAI "inpsired" and to me that means even more crap than the latest RA Slavatore trilogy and thats saying a lot from me.

What order do I read the book(s)?

There's plenty of stuff that's still highly optimistic in fantasy. I like GRRM's work well enough (though this particular series has been a bit rough for a book or two), but that doesn't mean I can't suggest fairly optimistic stuff all day long.

[Corvus]

Hmm.. the biggest names in fantasy i recall reading, Butcher, Sanderson, Erikson, is stil men though. Any females writhing anything in that sort of style?

Else, is it anything out of the ordinary? Is it not always girls who have been reading the most? Is the only new thing not just that they have begun to move into fantasy in larger numbers?
(they are for that matter welcome to do so

None of them are what I'd call recent - they've all been kicking around for over a decade. I'm not up on more current authors but there are a lot more female ones now than there used to be.

I'm not sure whether in the past there were more girl than boy readers but there has been a marked drop off in the numbers of boy readers. And you are probably correct that girl readers are moving more into fantasy than in the past, which is helping drive the demographic change in authors as well.

[Avilan the Grey]

I have no idea. Sadly I have almost stopped reading books, time does not lend itself between work, marriage, two dogs, and trying to fit in my main interest Computer Games.

That said I have two more or less irrelevant points:
1. Why is this this interesting? Please don't take this as a snub towards the OP but what does it matter?
2. "Back in my day" there were plenty of female fantasy writers. Elizabeth Moon, Merchedes Lackey, Barbara Hambly... Etc etc. In fact I think at least 50% of all titles I found in my local SF / Fantasy bookstore in the late 80s or early 90s were written by women.

[Themrys]

Hmm.. the biggest names in fantasy i recall reading, Butcher, Sanderson, Erikson, is stil men though. Any females writhing anything in that sort of style?

Else, is it anything out of the ordinary? Is it not always girls who have been reading the most? Is the only new thing not just that they have begun to move into fantasy in larger numbers?
(they are for that matter welcome to do so

I am pretty much sure that girls have always been reading more than boys.

Only now that they manage to get books published that the male establishment is worried about losing dominance. Or whatever else they worry about.

But there's no need for that, really. I did a count of the books at my public library (all books currently owned by the library, not just those on the shelves); there's between 20 and 30 percent of female writers in the fantasy section, and 30% is exactly the percentage of female contribution where people (even those who consider themselves not at all sexist!) start to feel like women are dominating the discussion, so that fits.

Sci Fi, the percentage of female authors is closer to 5% if that, and most of that is Le Guin still lingering there; few books by younger female writers.

@ngilop: If you hate GRRM, have you read "The Goblin Emperor" by Katherine Addison? It is only one book, there are very few deaths, the protagonist is thoroughly decent, as are many of the people around him, and the author name consists of only two names versus Martin's four. I feel like if there's something that can be said to be the opposite of ASOIAF while still being fantasy, it is that book.

[Adderbane]

Spoiler: MIND BLOWN

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WHAT?!?!?!

I absolutely abhor that unsavory GRRM and any of his works. You are telling me there is a series of novels such as you have described is unto a light shining in the darkness of hopelessness to me.

Most everything I have picked up since the damn TV show started to me has just seemed SOFAI "inpsired" and to me that means even more crap than the latest RA Slavatore trilogy and thats saying a lot from me.

What order do I read the book(s)?

Most of Sanderson's fantasy series share a universe referred to as "The Cosmere" There's no required order to the books, but they are connected, and in some the connection is more relevant. In sort of a "after credits scene" in book two of The Stormlight Archive there is a very significant reveal that loses some of its weight if you haven't read Warbreaker yet. Mistborn gives a good view of the greater Cosmere cosmology, but isn't as necessary to enjoy SA. Of course if you like SA id recommend the rest of Sanderson's stuff too!

In terms of tone, SA is the polar opposite of GoT. Where GoT is a very dark, realistic, and also low-magic, SA has a world where warriors in magical power armor face off against giant crustacean monstrosities and continent-spanning magical hurricanes ravage the world on a weekly basis (leading to some really cool ecosystem worldbuilding). It really puts the epic back in "epic fantasy ". The protagonists are undoubtedly heroes, not any of this morally-grey stuff so popular lately. Dalinar Kholin is basically who Ned Stark could've been.

Life before Death,
Strength before Weakness,
Journey before Destination.
--The First Ideal of the Knights Radiant

[endoperez]

Spoiler: MIND BLOWN

Show

WHAT?!?!?!

I absolutely abhor that unsavory GRRM and any of his works. You are telling me there is a series of novels such as you have described is unto a light shining in the darkness of hopelessness to me.

Most everything I have picked up since the damn TV show started to me has just seemed SOFAI "inpsired" and to me that means even more crap than the latest RA Slavatore trilogy and thats saying a lot from me.

What order do I read the book(s)?

Spoilers because it's getting off-topic.

Spoiler: Sanderson

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The theme of Sanderson's books is "a light shining in darkness" quite literally. They aren't the happy-go-lucky type of heroic fantasy. These are characters who suffer, in a world that isn't and never was a fairytale land, and a past cataclysm/armageddon/end of the world/where villains won is a recurring theme.
And OMG when the heroes get to the hero moment, all of that just emphasizes the themes. There's arc words that ooze pure heroism. There's desperate men refusing to abandon their ideals, and being empowered.

Sanderson is also known for incredible magic systems. There's inner logic in his systems, where realizing an additional rule you saw but didn't recognize might send shivers down your spine and send you to reread earlier scenes, where the effects are stated plain as day. It's like a reverse murder mystery: "how did he not die?" It's awesome.

Suggested reading order


Stormlight Archive is incredible. the first book, The Way of Kings, is also incredible. It's also a doorstopper. XD It's about idealism, about a broken man in a broken world and whether the fight is worth fighting when there's struggle but not victory in sight. According to this book, the answer is a triumphant, roaring yes.

It will make more sense if you've read his other books. I found Mistborn made certain things in the world make more sense. The second book, Words of Radiance, makes a small reference that you can connect to something in Warbreaker. All the man writes is good, but so far Stormlight Archive is his greatest work, so you might just want to dive in first. It's going to be a 12-book series eventually, so you'll end up rereading at some point any way. I personally started with Mistborn, and that was fantastic too.

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Warbreaker is decent, but out of his standalone books it left the weakest impression on me. It's set in a different world. It takes place in a court, and one of its major themes is about self-sacrifice, giving of your self to benefit others.
In book 2 of Stormlight Archive, there's a small reference that only makes sense if you know Warbreaker. However, Stormlight Archive is already so chock full of references to things that won't be clear until the later, as-of-yet-unwritten books that you won't really lose that much for skipping this IMO.

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Mistborn trilogy, is set in a yet another different world with vague connections to Stormlight Archive. It starts from The Final Empire, is an urban fantasy where there's a caste system, a corrupt elite and the downtrodden masses, and a villain at the top. A young woman learns to use her powers for people who want to change that. It was Sanderson's breakthrough story. It's great. For many authors, it'd be their best, but this is Sanderson.

A second Mistborn trilogy, starting from The Alloy of Law, is set centuries later after everything has changed. The tiniest of blurbs is enough to reveal much about the first trilogy, so don't look into that.

---

Elantris is a standalone book set in yet another different world. It's about two young people who are actually happy about their looming political marriage, but then a magical curse/plague gets one of them. It's one part political maneuvering, one part zombie apocalypse, one part coming of age and coming to terms with your heritage. It has a lawful neutral/not-evil paladin of an evil god, which makes for a very interesting antagonist. Another early work that's not his best; I still found it a good read.

The Emperor's Soul is a standalone book that has nothing to do with Elantris even though it's set in the same world. It's about a criminal using a very specific type of forbidden magic to do very forbidden things for a good man for very good reasons. The story is about how every person has potential to do good, and how it might be wasted, and how it might be encouraged. I liked it a lot, but it's more of an expanded short story, and has little in the way of action or excitement.

[2D8HP]

....Why is this this interesting?....

O.P. here: Mostly just curious, but if I can discern a pattern to the fiction I like, so I may more easily find more that would be awesome!

....In fact I think at least 50% of all titles I found in my local SF / Fantasy bookstore in the late 80s or early 90s were written by women.

I read lots of pre-'80's Science Fiction in my youth, but with the ascendance of "Cyberpunk" my interest in the genre waned. Of Fantasy mostly I read pre-'80's (indeed pre-'70's stuff suggested by Gygax's "Inspirational reading" Appendix N, which while it some women authors (of them LeGuin's "Wizard of Earthsea" was the best work that was listed), most of the works Gygax listed were by men.

In the late 1990's and early 2000"s I subscribed to "The Magazine of Fantasy and Science Fiction", and I seldom read novels then, only short stories.

I'm increasingly buying novels again, and of those new (21st Century) novels I seem to by far be enjoying novels by women more.

Like I said before it's probably just a random happenstance that the 20th century novels I enjoyed were mostly by men, and the 21st Century novels I've enjoyed have been mostly been by women, but if I can learn a short cut to selecting fiction I like that would awesome!

Just getting more book recommendations from the Forum (we all like OOTS at least?) is a plus too.

[lord_khaine]

I absolutely abhor that unsavory GRRM and any of his works. You are telling me there is a series of novels such as you have described is unto a light shining in the darkness of hopelessness to me.

Most everything I have picked up since the damn TV show started to me has just seemed SOFAI "inpsired" and to me that means even more crap than the latest RA Slavatore trilogy and thats saying a lot from me.

What order do I read the book(s)?

Do second the nomination for The Way of Kings. It is about deeply flawed or broken characters rising above their trouble.
And yeah, Sandersons paladins are a little tarnished, but that does make them shine all the more where it matters.
Also, for fun, light hearted reading i would recomend his Alcratraz books. Mainly because they are funny. And because they tell the message that knowledge is the biggest weapon.
(they also reveal the global liberian conspiracy, so wear a false beard if you want to get them from your local libery.)

I am pretty much sure that girls have always been reading more than boys.

Only now that they manage to get books published that the male establishment is worried about losing dominance. Or whatever else they worry about.

Actually, the only thing we really worry about in the secret loges where we control the libery spendings from, are something happening to the handful of people guys able to write good fantasy.
That and mistreated books.

[Sapphire Guard]

Brent Weeks writes a good novel that is tonally upbeat through various horrific things happening -the rough idea is that virtue is (very) difficult but worthwhile.

Don't see any real change along gender lines, Robin Hobb has always been excellent, Ursula Le Guin's been writing since the sixties, etc.

Do think GRRM'S rep for darkness is overstated, and not because I'm that much of a fan of his work. He's just another writer to me, someone I'd read, but not go out of my way for.

[GloatingSwine]

1. There have always been women writing really good fantasy (it has historically been easier for women to get published writing fantasy than science fiction)

2. There are probably more women being published and promoted writing really good genre now than there have been for the last few years because of pushback against the Puppy brigade at the Hugos. (Think: Gamergate but for genre novels, some of the same faces are present, has had broadly the opposite of the effect intended by making women in genre fiction more visible and publishable than ever.)

3. Regarding the above, if you didn't read NK Jemesin's The Fifth Season stop whatever it is you're doing and go and read it because holy ****.

[Czhorat]

I'd say yes, at least for my tastes. This is also a yat in which women swept the major categories in the Nebula awards.

Some favorites over the past year's:

Elizabeth Bear
Charlie Jane Anders
Caetlyn Kiernan
Cat Valente
Naomi Novik

If you include SF, there's also NK Jemisin and Nnedi Okorofor.

On the male side, I'm very interested in Ken Liu's work. On SF, there's Scalzi and Bacigalupi and maybe Neil Stephenson.

Still question that - for me - the writers whose books excite me most are your women.