Question regarding Belkar and vampirism

[Peelee]

Oddly enough, being vampirized with the typical way-it-actually-works-in-OOTS vampire spirit would fit: He wouldn't be able to choose to eat, so unless he somehow ends up with a vampire who likes tacos he had best savor cake while he can; he wouldn't be able to control how the money in his IRA is spent, so he should spend it instead of putting it in the IRA; vampires don't breathe; and "not long for this world" is an established idiom for only having a short time to live.

How right you are. This would still most likely remove Belkar from the story, though, since we would know he wouldn't be resurrected, the Giant is on record saying he has no interest in Belkar's back story (there's some sort of community-driven Fruity Appendix that keeps track of these things, I hear), and I doubt the theme of internal struggle between vampire and host soul would be played out twice. Not to mention nearly every iteration I've seen of this theory puts Belkar in the driver's seat, negating the IRA and likely the cake prophecies.

[Snails]

I was a big fan of the Vampire Belkar theory when we met Malack, because I immediately noticed Malack was probably a vampire. Vampirism does adequately fit the prophecy.

I agree that for metaplot reasons, Belkar becoming a vampire seems like too uninteresting a "twist" at this point in the story for the Giant to bother with.

Belkar would definitely despise his vampire spirit master IMO. Belkar dislikes lots of regular folk, enough to enjoy killing them. But he usually has an instant seething hatred for most evil types that seem similar to him. Perhaps he cannot control a little outlet for his own deep seated self-loathing? Probably. But the Giant has stated that he is uninterested in exploring Belkar's backstory, because a real explanation would be horrifying and not at all funny.

[TheNecrocomicon]

At no point does he ever tell a prophecy that is false, to the best of our knowledge. And there are four unresolved prophecies on record for Belkar

Sure. I guess "equivocation" was the wrong term -- more like wanton semantic ambiguity. The Oracle's divine-trance prophetic statements are indeed true, but there's nothing necessarily binding him to give the whole truth then, nor when he's talking with mundane mortal speech. In fact there is even less impetus upon him to be honest when it's mundane mortal speech, because he's not actively channeling divine powers gifted by Tiamat at the time.

It certainly seems to me that the four known statements applying to Belkar are not four prophecies, but rather four wordings/iterations of one prophecy that will most likely satisfy them all. At any rate, I'll go through them, and treat them equally if that's so essential to you:

that he shouldn't bother funding his IRA

Conventional meaning: Belkar won't need an Individual Retirement Account because he will die.

Unconventional meaning(s): he won't need a retirement account, either because he might keep on adventuring forever and never retire, or he'll amass so much wealth from loot and treasure that he won't need to stash anything away for retirement. Or he might go somewhere that he cannot draw on an IRA due to a lack of access.

that he should savor his next birthday cake

Conventional meaning: Belkar won't get another because he will die.

Unconventional meaning(s): he won't be able to savour his next birthday cake because he won't need food or cannot taste it; this could take plenty of forms outside of mortal life (e.g. undead, spiritual, ethereal, divine, etc.), or he could end up in a place where birthday cakes don't exist.

that he is not long for this world

Conventional meaning: "not long for this world" colloquialism = Belkar will die.

Unconventional meaning(s): continued life, unlife, etc. in another dimension or plane of existence that is not part of "this world" (i.e. outside the mortal plane of the OotS-verse).

that he will take his last breath ever before the end of the in-comic year

Conventional meaning: Belkar will stop breathing and die.

Unconventional meaning(s): he will stop breathing because he will have no further need to breathe; again, this could take plenty of forms outside of mortal life (e.g. undead, spiritual, ethereal, divine, etc.) but he would probably need to technically "die" as a mortal to transition/ascend/descend to a new state of being.

If you can resolve all those into a "he will not die permanently" theory, more power to you.

- vampirification (see Jasdoif's post), or some other more obscure type of undead, although presumably not any type that is based on spellcasting (thus lich, huecuva, etc. are non-starters).
- ascendance to divine or godly existence, and no longer subject to the needs of mortal life
- mortal death combined with Belkar's soul or ethereal form being banished permanently to (an)other plane(s) of existence (or sucked into the Snarl)

[Peelee]

- vampirification (see Jasdoif's post), or some other more obscure type of undead, although presumably not any type that is based on spellcasting (thus lich, huecuva, etc. are non-starters).
- ascendance to divine or godly existence, and no longer subject to the needs of mortal life
- mortal death combined with Belkar's soul or ethereal form being banished permanently to (an)other plane(s) of existence (or sucked into the Snarl)

Nobody has yet to argue earnestly that he will be vampirized without remaining in control of his body or being in perfectly happy symbiosis with his vampire spirit; that is, every Vampire Belkar theory has been, "I bet he'll be a vampire, but still be Belkar." As I have said, if you want to argue that Belkar will be vamped with the same lack of any control or agency as Durkon has, I won't argue. Haven't seen it yet.

Godly or divine existence? For this to be even remotely possible, then the argument has to be that the Oracle is throwing all these comments around to get a kick out of watching Belkar squirm (ignoring that Belkar doesn't even hear two of the prophecies), only for Belkar to end up getting the upper hand for eternity. Which the Oracle would know about. That... doesn't really make any sense.

Mortal death with Belkar's soul being permanently banished to another plane is called "normal death with no Rez spells cast on him, for whatever reason" Which is what my position is.

[TheNecrocomicon]

Nobody has yet to argue earnestly that he will be vampirized without remaining in control of his body or being in perfectly happy symbiosis with his vampire spirit; that is, every Vampire Belkar theory has been, "I bet he'll be a vampire, but still be Belkar." As I have said, if you want to argue that Belkar will be vamped with the same lack of any control or agency as Durkon has, I won't argue. Haven't seen it yet.

Initially, sure, their states would be the same. I don't think Belkar would go from being a mortal halfling straight to being an unfettered, free-willed, non-soul-enslaved vampire. There would necessarily be a period in the middle where he would have to go through what Durkon is going through, before outwitting, overcoming, allying with or merging with his own vampire spirit.

I don't see any reason to think that a vampire spirit is completely indomitable or infallible once it's in someone's head, and therefore I believe that, slim as the chances are, it's possible to throw off the mental/physical enslavement enough to get the upper hand. (That's probably what Durkon is going to have to accomplish at some point in this story.)

Godly or divine existence? For this to be even remotely possible, then the argument has to be that the Oracle is throwing all these comments around to get a kick out of watching Belkar squirm (ignoring that Belkar doesn't even hear two of the prophecies), only for Belkar to end up getting the upper hand for eternity. Which the Oracle would know about. That... doesn't really make any sense.

The upper hand on who? The Oracle's patron and the source of his powers is Tiamat herself, who if memory serves is a remarkably powerful deity. She might even welcome another Evil-aligned being to the pantheon of OotS-universe deities, or at least might be relatively unconcerned if he ends up on a lesser tier than hers. Or another non-world-destroying vote among the Northern pantheon would foil Hel's plans to unmake the world for personal gain, which presumably Tiamat would want to see fail since it would entail extinction for the world's draconic population.

Mortal death with Belkar's soul being permanently banished to another plane is called "normal death with no Rez spells cast on him, for whatever reason" Which is what my position is.

There are a large number of potential planes of existence that a being could go to or travel through that are not the mortal world or an afterlife.

[Kish]

"The Oracle is deliberately manipulating events to arrange the divine ascension of a new evil god who Tiamat wants there" is a hypotheses that deserves acknowledgement for viability, neatly turning most of the usual loophole theories' weaknesses (if he's taunting Belkar, why is Roy, not Belkar, the only one who knows? if this is supposed to make Belkar's life harder why has it thus far made his life easier by causing Roy to treat him as a solved problem? if the Oracle is acting to arrange Belkar's death and saw the result of his scheme in the future and is going through with it how likely is it that the scheme will fail?) into strengths. Kudos there (even while I continue to think Belkar's going to die and stay dead).

[Peelee]

Initially, sure, their states would be the same. I don't think Belkar would go from being a mortal halfling straight to being an unfettered, free-willed, non-soul-enslaved vampire. There would necessarily be a period in the middle where he would have to go through what Durkon is going through, before outwitting, overcoming, allying with or merging with his own vampire spirit.

I don't see any reason to think that a vampire spirit is completely indomitable or infallible once it's in someone's head, and therefore I believe that, slim as the chances are, it's possible to throw off the mental/physical enslavement enough to get the upper hand. (That's probably what Durkon is going to have to accomplish at some point in this story.)

I agree; I also believe that the Giant is unlikely to retread the same ground with a different character, and the odds of this are incredibly low. I don't for a second believe it will happen, but I can't deny that it is in the realm of possibility.

The upper hand on who? The Oracle's patron and the source of his powers is Tiamat herself, who if memory serves is a remarkably powerful deity. She might even welcome another Evil-aligned being to the pantheon of OotS-universe deities, or at least might be relatively unconcerned if he ends up on a lesser tier than hers. Or another non-world-destroying vote among the Northern pantheon would foil Hel's plans to unmake the world for personal gain, which presumably Tiamat would want to see fail since it would entail extinction for the world's draconic population.

Tiamat could, in the next world, make more dragons, just like she did in this world. Thor and Odin may be screwed, but we have no way of knowing if Tiamat would even be affected at all.

Then you have the out-of-comic issue of the Giant being on record saying, "Some people want to love the villain without having to face the fact that villains are largely terrible people who do horrific things with deficient reasoning. Not on my watch." So I would be very surprised if making Belkar into a god is something that's in the cards. Now, aside from that meta commentary.....that's not a bad theory. Certainly better than most I remember, especially since you actually try to justify it beyond "Belkar should be a literal SSGoW because he's cool and I like him." Again, don't for a second believe it will happen, but I can't deny that it is in the realm of possibility.

There are a large number of potential planes of existence that a being could go to or travel through that are not the mortal world or an afterlife.

That, however, is blind guessing at best.

[Zyzzyva]

Sure. I guess "equivocation" was the wrong term -- more like wanton semantic ambiguity.

I continue to be mystified by people who say things like this. We have nine "official" prophecies (Eugene, Roy(OtOoPCs), Roy (W&XPs), V, Haley, Elan, Belkar, Durkon, Roy (DStP)) and at least four clearly-prophetic bits of non-trace chatter ("Ghost Dad", "Family Reunions", "bring a Resurrection next time", and of course all the Belkar stuff). Of these, Eugene, Roy II, Elan (presumably), and Durkon are all straightforward and clear, as are the non-Belkar bits of chatter. Roy I and Belkar get useless but obviously correct answers. V and Haley get more poetically elliptical (but, again, straightforwardly correct after-the-fact) answers. That leaves us with Roy III and the various Belkar chatter.

What, exactly, about the Oracle's past predictive behaviour suggests that there's anything there but a straightforward prediction of death, phrased a little snarkily?

[hroþila]

I continue to be mystified by people who say things like this. We have nine "official" prophecies (Eugene, Roy(OtOoPCs), Roy (W&XPs), V, Haley, Elan, Belkar, Durkon, Roy (DStP)) and at least four clearly-prophetic bits of non-trace chatter ("Ghost Dad", "Family Reunions", "bring a Resurrection next time", and of course all the Belkar stuff). Of these, Eugene, Roy II, Elan (presumably), and Durkon are all straightforward and clear, as are the non-Belkar bits of chatter. Roy I and Belkar get useless but obviously correct answers. V and Haley get more poetically elliptical (but, again, straightforwardly correct after-the-fact) answers. That leaves us with Roy III and the various Belkar chatter.

What, exactly, about the Oracle's past predictive behaviour suggests that there's anything there but a straightforward prediction of death, phrased a little snarkily?

Prophecies are always obvious after the fact. I'd say that a point can be made that Durkon's prophecy, while obviously true, was perhaps misleading.

That said, there's also the Black Dragon, who apparently got a perfectly straight-forward answer.

[factotum]

Prophecies are always obvious after the fact. I'd say that a point can be made that Durkon's prophecy, while obviously true, was perhaps misleading.

There were a number of people who advanced the theory that Durkon would return home as some sort of undead creature when the prophecy was first made, although I think the favourite idea was that he'd be killed by Xykon and come back with him as part of his undead horde, so I don't think it was as misleading as all that. It's kind of hard to say how the answer to Durkon's question could have been phrased that wouldn't have been misleading on some sort of level--I mean, if the Oracle had said "You'll teleport there from a Godsmoot" would it have been any more meaningful?

[hroþila]

There were a number of people who advanced the theory that Durkon would return home as some sort of undead creature when the prophecy was first made, although I think the favourite idea was that he'd be killed by Xykon and come back with him as part of his undead horde, so I don't think it was as misleading as all that. It's kind of hard to say how the answer to Durkon's question could have been phrased that wouldn't have been misleading on some sort of level--I mean, if the Oracle had said "You'll teleport there from a Godsmoot" would it have been any more meaningful?

Note that I said the point could be made, not that I would make it. Me, I'm leaning towards "not misleading". That said, no, "You'll teleport there from a Godsmoot" wouldn't have been more meaningful, but "As a vampire" would.

[Zyzzyva]

There were a number of people who advanced the theory that Durkon would return home as some sort of undead creature when the prophecy was first made, although I think the favourite idea was that he'd be killed by Xykon and come back with him as part of his undead horde, so I don't think it was as misleading as all that.

I was definitely one of those people (although not on the forum yet).

[Kish]

Yeah, I saw a lot of people advocating for Belkar's prophecy to be loopholed in some way say "You must think Durkon's just going to die and stay dead then!" or something to that effect, but I never saw anyone volunteer to actually embody that strawman.