OOTS #1065 - The Discussion Thread

[keybounce]

OK, she turned the ship in time and didn't crash head-on into the ice. That doesn't mean they aren't going to sink.

Haven't you people seen Titanic?

Hey, the Titanic did not sink because it ran into an iceberg. No, it was floating just fine.

It sank because, eager to actually arrive on time, the captain decided to resume sail before making sure the ship was repaired.

... wait a sec ...

[8BitNinja]

Hey, the Titanic did not sink because it ran into an iceberg. No, it was floating just fine.

It sank because, eager to actually arrive on time, the captain decided to resume sail before making sure the ship was repaired.

... wait a sec ...

I don't think the iceberg sank the Titanic

I think it was Jack

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRA2OrZTiwY

(Content Warning for small children, nuns, and people who don't like to hear bad words: Some Strong Language)

[TheNecrocomicon]

Hey, the Titanic did not sink because it ran into an iceberg. No, it was floating just fine.

It sank because, eager to actually arrive on time, the captain decided to resume sail before making sure the ship was repaired.

... wait a sec ...

It sustained enough damage to the forward five to six compartments to sink it regardless. The difference is that it could have taken longer to sink if it hadn't been driven forwards, forcing yet more water into the irreparably holed compartments. And that, in turn, could have given the opportunity to save a lot more lives -- that, and if the captain and crew of the Californian hadn't crit-failed their own Spot check.

[Onyavar]

I'm honestly surprised and pleased that the ship didn't crash and burn immediately

You're thinking Lakehurst accident. That airship was filled with hydrogen. While the Mechane floats with helium, much less flammable.

Serious post: Come on Andi, we knew that you were completely inept at leading, but do you really have to dig yourself deeper?!

I guess this is the forum readers fault. Too many were still somehow sympathising with Andi, so the Giant felt obliged to make her utterly unlikeable even though a majority of readers already despise her strongly enough. It's called the Miko effect, named after a long since forgotten cameo character.

[8BitNinja]

You're thinking Lakehurst accident. That airship was filled with hydrogen. While the Mechane floats with helium, much less flammable.

I guess the shipwright could see into the future and see what happened with the Hindenburg

[nocoolnamejim]

Hm, I had a theory that Andi was possessed by an evil entity, but now it appears she is just genuinely that dumb. Which is strange because one would think someone would have noticed that before.

Or the evil entity possessing her is just clever enough to make her appear genuinely dumb ... but I don't think that's the case, an author can't be too subtle about such things or the audience will get angry when it is revealed ...


Elan is the clearly the more self-aware person here. He never learnt a literal lesson, and is aware of it, while Andi failed to learn a lesson in the metaphorical sense and remains completely ignorant that there was something to learn, even.

I had the same reaction as this to the thread title when looking at the comic. It very well could be referring to Elan OR Andi.

Elan is clearly aware of a lesson that he never learned and that's the first step towards actually learning it. Andi manages through sheer dumb luck (and some ace flying by the actual pilot) to avoid crashing and killing her ship within minutes of taking it over - although she may well have damaged it further - and concludes she's awesome.

I wonder if Giant isn't literally parodying some of the Andi apologists at this point.

[sabremeister]

It seems clear at this point that Elan is not going to realise/leap to the conclusion that he is the True Heir of Julio Scoundrel vis-a-vis airship captaining, and swoop in to re-assert sensible command (or at least take it away from Andi). Apart from anything else, I doubt Andi would be willing to listen to anyone except Julio at this point.

Also, given Andi's questions in panel 5, it seems that the engines are the important things to worry about. I'm not an airman of any description, but I have a basic understanding of aerodynamics, and I would have thought that the hull damage/deformation and damage/deformation of control surfaces would be of higher priority to worry about. This suggests that either Andi was exaggerating the damage the giants were doing to the ship, or that the Engineer (who looks after the engines) and the Carpenter (who looks after things made of wood) are two different people on the Mechane. And yet...

[8BitNinja]

It seems clear at this point that Elan is not going to realise/leap to the conclusion that he is the True Heir of Julio Scoundrel vis-a-vis airship captaining, and swoop in to re-assert sensible command (or at least take it away from Andi). Apart from anything else, I doubt Andi would be willing to listen to anyone except Julio at this point.

Maybe it isn't dramatically the most appropriate moment.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I suspect it's as simple as "because, being off the pass, it doesn't lead to the other side of the mountain range and there's no reason to ever go there."

Actually, there is an argument to be made that in a D&D world, wandering off the beaten pass will land you in much, much worse trouble than a simple "this canyon leads nowhere". Here there be dragons, and all manner of strange beasts, after all.

But we shall see soon enough, either way.

GW

[Hamste]

Also, given Andi's questions in panel 5, it seems that the engines are the important things to worry about. I'm not an airman of any description, but I have a basic understanding of aerodynamics, and I would have thought that the hull damage/deformation and damage/deformation of control surfaces would be of higher priority to worry about. This suggests that either Andi was exaggerating the damage the giants were doing to the ship, or that the Engineer (who looks after the engines) and the Carpenter (who looks after things made of wood) are two different people on the Mechane. And yet...

Why would the hull be the primary concern for an airship? I mean if it deforms too much or if there was a giant gaping hole the air would slow down the ship but the external part of the engines, steering and balloon seems a bit more important to worry about after a scrape than if whether or not there is a gaping hole in the side as the first three would most likely end with a crash if they were destroyed while a gaping hole just means they are stuck going slower or if they lost some storage.

[Peelee]

I guess the shipwright could see into the future and see what happened with the Hindenburg

Actually, most german airships were filled with hydrogen because they didn't have access to enough helium. America not wanting to give them that much and all. American airships were largely helium-lifted.

[Erzengel]

Regarding the apparently disembodied hand... I believe you are looking at the back of the pilot, who is covered by a speech bubble except for a bit of clothing and a hand grasping the wheel.


Edit: .... nevermind, after going back a few strips, the layout of the bridge contradicts that a bit. What I thought was a scrap of clothing... is probably not. The mystery is still afoot.

[Yendor]

The mystery is still afoot.

Not a foot, a hand.

[KillingAScarab]

Bard camp had far fewer half-elves in attendance than I expected. ...although, we can only see one of their ears, each.

That was fun, but the party is becoming more and more split. Roy and Elan on the ship, Belkar off alone, V and Haley off on their own.

Not boding so well, particularly as they don't know where they are.

The airship is slowing down and it is getting lower, which will make it easier to catch up with.

So in OOTS-verse, do those with ADD get sick a lot due to low Concentration?

Asking for a friend named Elan.

Elan has been airsick far less than Blackwing, so there's that.

[SethoMarkus]

Not a foot, a hand.

I've got to hand it to you, that was clever.

[ref]

Andi Schmandi.

The visiting captain called heads. It was heads.

And now he's the GOAT captain. Meh.

[Olinser]

Why would the hull be the primary concern for an airship? I mean if it deforms too much or if there was a giant gaping hole the air would slow down the ship but the external part of the engines, steering and balloon seems a bit more important to worry about after a scrape than if whether or not there is a gaping hole in the side as the first three would most likely end with a crash if they were destroyed while a gaping hole just means they are stuck going slower or if they lost some storage.

The hull keeps the whole ship together and distributes the weight. A ship in water a great amount of the weight of the ship is on the water. On an airship the hull structure takes all the weight of everything its carrying.

Add that to the fact that its not just slowing the ship down - the drag and pressure is going right onto that breach.

If the hull is sufficiently damaged (especially if structural braces are compromised) the weight isn't going to be evenly distributed throughout the structure of the ship and its own weight is going to start ripping sections out of the ship until it finds balance again.

[Escapist]

Here's hoping the Order somehow blunders their way to safety through sheer dumb luck, and find an alternate path.

Much more likely that it'll SEEM like that's what is going to happen and at the last minute things will go even more wrong than they were before

[Rogar Demonblud]

Andi continues to survive with help from Dumb Luck checks. It's barely a middling successful tactic short-term; forget long-term.

ETA: I was once diagnosed ADD/ADHD, and my experience is that ADD doesn't mean you can't concentrate. I have periods of hyper-concentration in which I am so totally focused on one task that I can hardly do anything else. A lot of my work-productivity comes from inducing a 'trance' of this form for limited periods of time.

Easily distracted, periods of hyper-concentration...You're a Spark?

[JoeyTheNeko]

I just hope when andi's luck runs out, it doesn't mean the orders has too.

[toapat]

I'm now incurably curious as to what's on the side of the ship which may have been damaged.

easily over 100 mooring posts that will have been ripped loose or stressed close to their engineering tolerances, as well as Elan and the ship's Hull, along with Engine brackets and the beams those are mounted to, and an engine and propeller

Andi literally ordered 10 times as much damage to the ship as Bandana and Julio had on camera, and much more expensive damage even over special engineering commissions and rush orders. the worst damage under Bandana the ship suffered was Blackwing taking 1 on a UMD check OR Thor trying to snipe his rogue cleric, both of which were minimized with extreme force. Julio absolutely has dealt more damage to the ship in his lifetime than Bandana because of, well, being a Sky Pirate. Burns are cosmetic, pulverized Soarwood is not.

Hell, the flotation bladders probably are the most expensive part of the Ship and thats because they have to be aluminum plated in order to retain the Helium elementals.

[factotum]

It sustained enough damage to the forward five to six compartments to sink it regardless. The difference is that it could have taken longer to sink if it hadn't been driven forwards, forcing yet more water into the irreparably holed compartments.

I think you may be confusing the Titanic with the Britannic. The Titanic's engines were put in full reverse as soon as the iceberg was sighted--in fact, that might be part of the reason the ship failed to steer out of the way in time, because the central propeller couldn't be reversed (being driven by a steam turbine) and so there was less water flow over the rudder to steer the ship. It came to a halt not long after the impact.

The Britannic, on the other hand, hit a mine in shallow water in the Mediterranean, and was driven at full speed toward the nearest beach in the hope it could be beached before it sank. However, as the ship settled by the head and the propellers lifted out of the water, they dragged in a nearby lifeboat and smashed it (and its occupants) to bits. It was only at that point that the engines were stopped.

[TeCoolMage]

I can't wait for Andi to notice she still has to fix stuff, and find out where exactly she is relative to the dwarven lands now that she's off path.

Can we get to the part where Roy uses a full action to destroy Andi and her phylactery or something

Next up: "Andi, we have to make another turn"
"Uhhhhhh" *boom*

[dancrilis]

Andi continues to survive with help from Dumb Luck checks. It's barely a middling successful tactic short-term; forget long-term.

Isn't it the entire basis of many stories - a series of unlikely (and dangerous) events occur and eventually everything works out.

I just hope when andi's luck runs out, it doesn't mean the orders has too.

I kindof hope her luck never runs out.

Can we get to the part where Roy uses a full action to destroy Andi and her phylactery or something

This kindof confuses me - assuming that everything continues to work out why would the Order care?

Roy: Why aren't we on the pass?
Andi: Certain doom.
Belkar: Why is that one whose name I never bothered learning tied up?
Andi: Certain doom.
Belkar: Oh want her dead?
Andi: ... no.
Elan: But we are still going to Firmament? It is super important.
Andi: Sure - once we can make the trip without certain doom for all on board. Might discuss with the crew and than Roy about changing payment to cover some raise deads for our crewmates.
Roy: Hmm ... yea they are only dead to help us I suppose.
Elan: Hurray.
Belkar: Meh.
Andi: Still have pleanty of healing potions for any who need them.

Vaarsuvius might well have an 'I defer to your greater expertise with airships' approach.

The only one that might seem to object is Haley - and even than certain doom is likely a reasonable reason to take action from her prespective.

If things don't continue to work out than it would likely depend on how they do not for how the order will react but assuming that the Order's reaction will be violant death for Andi and any who support her seems unsupported by the text of the comic to date.

[warmachine]

Andi makes a terrible leader. When you have to make a decision and there's no time to consult, make a decision and stick with it. And when a leader isn't a good pilot, tell the pilot the required direction and let him handle the piloting decisions.

[Kareasint]

Actually, there is an argument to be made that in a D&D world, wandering off the beaten pass will land you in much, much worse trouble than a simple "this canyon leads nowhere". Here there be dragons, and all manner of strange beasts, after all.

But we shall see soon enough, either way.

GW

Simply put, that many Frost Giants are going to have young White Dragons with them. Elan does not have enough spell slots to cover the damage that a flyer will do to the air bag.

If the air ship is on a dead end path, they will likely be cornered and disabled.

[Cerlis]

i do like his critical thinking.

"its the obvious answer but is it TO obvious?"

[TeCoolMage]

This kindof confuses me - assuming that everything continues to work out why would the Order care?

Roy: Why aren't we on the pass?
Andi: Certain doom.
Belkar: Why is that one whose name I never bothered learning tied up?
Andi: Certain doom.
Belkar: Oh want her dead?
Andi: ... no.
Elan: But we are still going to Firmament? It is super important.
Andi: Sure - once we can make the trip without certain doom for all on board. Might discuss with the crew and than Roy about changing payment to cover some raise deads for our crewmates.
Roy: Hmm ... yea they are only dead to help us I suppose.
Elan: Hurray.
Belkar: Meh.
Andi: Still have pleanty of healing potions for any who need them.

Vaarsuvius might well have an 'I defer to your greater expertise with airships' approach.

The only one that might seem to object is Haley - and even than certain doom is likely a reasonable reason to take action from her prespective.

If things don't continue to work out than it would likely depend on how they do not for how the order will react but assuming that the Order's reaction will be violant death for Andi and any who support her seems unsupported by the text of the comic to date.

*Roy rolls his sense motive check against Andi's low charisma and finds out Andi just got angry and assaulted someone simply because they didn't agree with her*

*Belkar never gets to the ship, neither does V, or Haley, since they'll be going down the pass against several miles of frost giants and the Mechane is on a different path*

*Roy takes a full action to use his green sword flame to destroy Andi*

*The ship crashes anyway or reaches a dead end*

And it ends with Roy walking the rest of the way with Elan behind him while V eventually runs out of spells against the giants and Haley is unable to get sneak attacks off consistently, so they go into hiding in the mountains, V has to spend several pages casting sending spells to Belkar and Roy, and they all rendezvous at a far away location, and by then the world has ended.

[Hamste]

The hull keeps the whole ship together and distributes the weight. A ship in water a great amount of the weight of the ship is on the water. On an airship the hull structure takes all the weight of everything its carrying.

Add that to the fact that its not just slowing the ship down - the drag and pressure is going right onto that breach.

If the hull is sufficiently damaged (especially if structural braces are compromised) the weight isn't going to be evenly distributed throughout the structure of the ship and its own weight is going to start ripping sections out of the ship until it finds balance again.

Losing parts of the ship still seems less important than being able to move when they are in the middle of a fight. As long as the engines don't fall off, the steering is still connected and the deck can support people the loss of most parts is expensive but not life threatening.

I would also argue the ship most likely is designed with the idea that their might be holes in it and so have a much higher safety factor than usual as well as designing the deck to be able to support an upward force instead of a downward force (that is most likely to break from air pressure as the floor is designed to support weight). After all they are pirates. Getting holes in your ship must be something they have to worry about.

It should also be noted the weight doesn't have to be distributed evenly, it just has to be supported and pieces will only be lost until the forces are balanced again with the shear, moment, tensile, bending and compressive forces are under their maximums (and if the forces are never below the maximums the ship falls apart).

There is also the consideration of how close they were to the maximum weight when this happened. Say they weren't carrying very much cargo compared to what they could have carried. In that case the loss/damage of a few structural beams and a hole is much less likely to cause the entire ship to collapse as the ship is designed to be able to carry much more weight than it is currently carrying (assuming the ship is designed so a force pushing up on the main deck or outward on the hull doesn't cause the ship to break).

[TheNecrocomicon]

I think you may be confusing the Titanic with the Britannic. The Titanic's engines were put in full reverse as soon as the iceberg was sighted--in fact, that might be part of the reason the ship failed to steer out of the way in time, because the central propeller couldn't be reversed (being driven by a steam turbine) and so there was less water flow over the rudder to steer the ship. It came to a halt not long after the impact.

I know what you mean, but in the Titanic's case, the captain had the engines brought back to a moderate forward speed for several minutes before the effects of the iceberg hit became apparent. Then the crew stopped the engines for good. That whole sequence did not do the ship any favours.