Would gandalf be better off as a bard than a wizard?

[Bohandas]

Once again the pond rears its head, sundering the speakers in twain.
But Association or no, it works either way.
(Association football = soccer, footie)

I think people need to stop sayi g "football" and either say "gridiron" or "soccer". It's less confusing that way.

[Âmesang]

It's been ages since I read either The Simarillion, Unfinished Tales, The History of Middle-earth, or The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, so please don't mind me too much when I try to clarify a few things—I won't doubt that I may be wrong here or there:

Gandalf does not have a class. His abilities are racial abilities (plus the fact that he's wearing one of the elven rings of power, Narya, the Ring of Fire).

One thing that I recall was that Narya's purpose wasn't so much literal fire powers but the ability to "kindle hope in the hearts of others."

As Elrond (with Mithrandir's help) used water to wash away the Nazgûl I was going to make a counterpoint regarding his ring, Vilya… but further research indicates that Vilya is the Ring of Air—Galadriel's Ring, Nenya, was the Ring of Water. Heh. (That whole scene was stolen by Arwen, anyway!)

I do remember hearing years ago a theory that the rings were thusly named to represent the final resting places of the Simarils themselves.

According to Tolkien in The Silmarillion, Gandalf is one of the Maiar - a race of angels. So is the balrog, who had been corrupted by Morgoth (Melkor). He is identifying himself as associated with the power of the sun when he says, ""I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor." [Anor is the sun.] He goes on to refer to the corrupt nature of the Balrog by saying "The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udûn." [Udun is darkness.]

Was Anor a name give to the sun by Men? I remember the "sun" being a kindly Maia of Fire, Arien, taking up into the sky the last fruit of Laurelin the Golden, one of the Two Trees of Valinor that was slain by Morgoth, the First Dark Lord (Sauron's master) and Ungolient, a great shadow in the form of a she-spider.

On top of that, the "Secret Fire" might refer to the life-giving "flame of creation" that is with Eru Ilúvatar, the God of the Middle-earth cosmos, creator of the Ainur (Valar [Powers of the World] and Maiar [their servants] and the universe as a whole, with the latter singing the world, Arda, into being (Middle-earth being only a continent equivalent to western Eurasia).

Likewise, "flame of Ûdun" may be a reference to the balrog's master, Morgoth, as Ûdun was another name for Utumno, Morgoth's great underground fortress that existed far in the north before the awakening of the Elves (and destroyed by the Valar before the awakening of Men, the "dawn" of the First Age).

[hymer]

I think people need to stop sayi g "football" and either say "gridiron" or "soccer". It's less confusing that way.

May I suggest instead that we stop calling American football 'football' altogether? It's more like handball. Or call it 'American rugby'. That makes more sense.

Was Anor a name give to the sun by Men?

'Anor' is Sindarin, so very, very likely not (though Sindarin was used by some Men).

On top of that, the "Secret Fire" might refer to the life-giving "flame of creation"

It may be that Gandalf's speech is tautological, and he is referring to the same thing by two different names, though I rather doubt it. The quote is

I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor

So is he both the servant and his master's wielder? That sounds strange to me, though not impossible. It's a pretty mysterious passage in many ways. Some even read into it that Gandalf is warning the Balrog that he is wearing the ring of fire; which would be a silly thing to do in front of so many enemies, and calling that ring 'the flame of Anor' doesn't fit with what we know - it was made in Eregion relatively recently. And Gandalf is certainly no servant to Narya, so that part doesn't fit either.
I think that saying he wields the flame of Anor is him saying he a Maia. In revealing himself in word and deed, he is making himself more powerful, 'uncloaking' himself (a term he uses to Bilbo when Bilbo is struggling to leave the One Ring behind). And that his being a servant to the Secret Fire is indeed alluding to the fire that burns at the heart of the world, and through that saying that Gandalf is an agent of agents of Ilúvatar.

Likewise, "flame of Ûdun" may be a reference to the balrog's master, Morgoth, as Ûdun was another name for Utumno, Morgoth's great underground fortress that existed far in the north before the awakening of the Elves (and destroyed by the Valar before the awakening of Men, the "dawn" of the First Age).

I think you can take that to the bank. Gandalf is saying 'I know you for what you are, and I know where you came from'.

[Eldan]

It's an old fact by know, but it's called football because it's played on foot, not horseback. Really, most modern team games are football.

[hymer]

Really, most modern team games are football.

Oh good, that will be much less confusing!

[anniepeete]

I think yes!! Its better one.

[Max_Killjoy]

It's an old fact by know, but it's called football because it's played on foot, not horseback. Really, most modern team games are football.

In particular, soccer (association rules football, via England's odd way of forming slang), rugby, American "gridiron" football, Gaelic rules football, and Australian rules football, all descend from a common origin.

[Jay R]

I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor

So is he both the servant and his master's wielder?

He is the servant and the wielder of his master's flame. It's no different from saying, "I am a knight of King Prootwattle. He gave me this sword with which to fight injustice."

[hymer]

He is the servant and the wielder of his master's flame. It's no different from saying, "I am a knight of King Prootwattle. He gave me this sword with which to fight injustice."

It rather is. The Secret Fire is a specific, albeit highly mysterious, phenomenon in Middle-earth, and it burns at the centre of creation. Anor, in contrast, it the sun. That's about as far apart as you can get in Middle-earth. Any further and you're in the Void.

[hamishspence]

If the Secret Fire is synonymous with the Flame Imperishable, then it may, on some level, burn in everything.

http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Secret_Fire

[runeghost]

It's been ages since I read either The Simarillion, Unfinished Tales, The History of Middle-earth, or The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, so please don't mind me too much when I try to clarify a few things—I won't doubt that I may be wrong here or there:


One thing that I recall was that Narya's purpose wasn't so much literal fire powers but the ability to "kindle hope in the hearts of others."

As Elrond (with Mithrandir's help) used water to wash away the Nazgûl I was going to make a counterpoint regarding his ring, Vilya… but further research indicates that Vilya is the Ring of Air—Galadriel's Ring, Nenya, was the Ring of Water. Heh. (That whole scene was stolen by Arwen, anyway!)

I do remember hearing years ago a theory that the rings were thusly named to represent the final resting places of the Simarils themselves.

Some fun speculation about the Three:

The Three were all created by Celebrimbor, in secret. At least secret from his disguised co-ring maker, Sauron/Annatar, and probably from his fellow elvish ringmakers, too. He pretty obviously made them with intended recipients in mind. Nenya, the Ring of Air was made for Galadriel, and given to her by Celebrimbor. Vilya, the Ring of Water and chief of the Three was doubtless intended for Celebrimbor himself (he was not the sort to make ring for others and NOT keep one for himself). Which leaves the question of who Narya, the Ring of Fire and inspiration of the spirit was intended for. Might it have been intended for Celebrimbor's good friend and fellow ringmaker, the Maia who helped inspire the whole project?

Was the reason Narya ended up with Gandalf, and did so in his possession that its maker intended from the first that it be in the hands of a Maia who inspired others?

[hamishspence]

There's a theory that the reason Sauron never touched The Three, was that Celebrimbor distrusted him:

http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Celebrimbor

which wouldn't make much sense if he intended to give Sauron one of them, with his intention only ending after Sauron revealed the One Ring's existence.

[Kantaki]

I think Narya belonged to Cirdan before Gandalf arrived in Middleearth.
At some point the former gave it the latter because it would be more useful in his hands than lying around in a harbor.

Or something along those lines.

[Âmesang]

I do recall that Vilya was in the possession of Gil-Galad, the High King of the Elves of Middle-earth (slain in battle against Sauron alongside Elendil), before passing to Elrond. Speaking of Círdan, he was an elf of such advanced age (first or second generation?) that he actually had a beard.

A thing about the sun and the moon is that the light that they give off is impure (I think Tolkien's explanation for sunburns and such), having been marred by Morgoth and Ungoliant during their attack against Valinor, and thus lacks the purity of their parents, the Two Trees, Laurelin the Gold and Telperion the Silver… a pure light that now only exists in the Silmarils (although Telperion's is somewhat reflected through its "descendant," the White Tree of Gondor). The balrog itself is also corrupted, an angelic being that fell into darkness under Morgoth's influence… so I'd like to imagine that Mithrandir is marking a distinction between himself, an unfallen Maia wielding the "true flame," and the balor, a fallen Maia wielding a debased copy.

…

One thing I don't think I mentioned is that I like the idea of classifying Mithrandir as an outsider with spell-like abilities than simply as a character class; fits more thematically and also a lot simpler to stat out, in a manner.

[Aeson]

I think Narya belonged to Cirdan before Gandalf arrived in Middleearth.
At some point the former gave it the latter because it would be more useful in his hands than lying around in a harbor.

Yes to the first point, more or less yes to the second, though it appears to me as though that happened when Gandalf arrived in Middle-Earth (c.TA1000) and not at some later point. From Appendix B of The Return of the King:

Throughout the Third Age the guardianship of the the Three Rings was known only to those who possessed them. But at the end it became known that they had been held at first by the three greatest of the Eldar: Gil-galad, Galadriel, and Cirdan. Gil-galad before he died gave his ring to Elrond; Cirdan later surrendered his to Mithrandir. For Cirdan saw further and deeper than any other in Middle-Earth, and he welcomed Mithrandir at the Grey Havens, knowing whence he came and wither he would return.

"Take this ring, Master," he said, "for your labors will be heavy; but it will support you in the weariness that you have taken upon yourself. For this is the Ring of Fire, and with it you may rekindle hearts in a world that grows chill. But as for me, my heart is with the Sea, and I will dwell by the grey shores until the last ship sails. I will await you."

The Three were all created by Celebrimbor, in secret. At least secret from his disguised co-ring maker, Sauron/Annatar, and probably from his fellow elvish ringmakers, too. He pretty obviously made them with intended recipients in mind. Nenya, the Ring of Air was made for Galadriel, and given to her by Celebrimbor. Vilya, the Ring of Water and chief of the Three was doubtless intended for Celebrimbor himself (he was not the sort to make ring for others and NOT keep one for himself). Which leaves the question of who Narya, the Ring of Fire and inspiration of the spirit was intended for. Might it have been intended for Celebrimbor's good friend and fellow ringmaker, the Maia who helped inspire the whole project?

I personally don't think that Celebrimbor had originally intended to give away any of the Three. According to the timeline for the Second Age in Appendix B in The Return of the King, the Three are forged in SA1590, and the One and Barad-dur are only created 10 years later, with the war between Sauron and the Elves starting and the Three being hidden a further 93 years after that. Ten years is plenty of time for Celebrimbor to have given Sauron the Ring of Fire, had he originally intended to do that, especially if Sauron was still in Eriador c.SA1590. Furthermore, the Three are only hidden in SA1693, when the war between Sauron and the Elves begins, which suggests that the Three were openly held by someone up until that time. The logical place to start looking for something which is hidden or lost is in its last known location, and that the Rings of Power are notable for the hold they have over their possessors¹ only reinforces that, so "hiding" the Three by leaving them in the possession of those who were known to have them for much of the preceding century would quite likely be a very ineffective way of hiding the Three. There's also that Galadriel states in "The Mirror of Galadriel" that Sauron suspects but does not know that one of the Three resides in Lothlorien, which would seem odd if Galadriel had been known to be in possession of one of the Three prior to the Three being hidden - it isn't normal to just lose a Ring of Power, and with Lothlorien seemingly being one of the strongest remaining Elven realms at the end of the Third Age it seems unlikely that anyone could have seized the Ring by force of arms in the intervening ~4750 years.

¹"A Ring of Power looks after itself, Frodo. It may slip off treacherously, but its keeper never abandons it. At most he plays with the idea of handing it on to someone else's care - and that only at an early stage, when it first begins to grip. But as far as I know, Bilbo alone in history has ever gone beyond playing, and really done it. He needed all my help, too. And even so he would never have just forsaken it, or cast it aside." - Gandalf, speaking to Frodo in the "The Shadow from the Past." Granted, this statement is not entirely accurate and the statement is made while Gandalf is telling Frodo about the history of the Rings of Power with a focus on the One Ring, but given that Gandalf said "a Ring of Power" rather than "the Ring of Power" or "the One Ring" or "the Ruling Ring," and did so despite having already mentioned the existence of other Rings of Power than the One (including the 19 other Great Rings), the implication is that the statement is generally true for Rings of Power and not just for the One Ring.

[hamishspence]

¹"A Ring of Power looks after itself, Frodo. It may slip off treacherously, but its keeper never abandons it. At most he plays with the idea of handing it on to someone else's care - and that only at an early stage, when it first begins to grip. But as far as I know, Bilbo alone in history has ever gone beyond playing, and really done it. He needed all my help, too. And even so he would never have just forsaken it, or cast it aside." - Gandalf, speaking to Frodo in the "The Shadow from the Past." Granted, this statement is not entirely accurate and the statement is made while Gandalf is telling Frodo about the history of the Rings of Power with a focus on the One Ring, but given that Gandalf said "a Ring of Power" rather than "the Ring of Power" or "the One Ring" or "the Ruling Ring," and did so despite having already mentioned the existence of other Rings of Power than the One (including the 19 other Great Rings), the implication is that the statement is generally true for Rings of Power and not just for the One Ring.

After reading Unfinished Tales (Disaster of the Gladden Fields), and how during the battle Isildur had realised that he made a big mistake claiming the One Ring, and had been sent by his son to Rivendell to take the Ring to the Keepers of the Elven Rings (with the one survivor of the Gladden Fields massacre overhearing the speech between Isildur and his son, which is how it's known in the "present day"), I was thinking that it might be intended as a nod to Gandalf's comment on "playing with the idea of handing it on to someone else's care." Given that some of Unfinished Tales was written after LOTR was published.


The Three, at least in tie-in material, have different traits from the others - a mortal who put one on, wouldn't become invisible, for one thing:

http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm#Q3-Invisible

so, maybe Gandalf's comments about inability to give up a Great Ring, are not intended to apply to them either, since he knows Cirdan gave up his.

[GrayDeath]

Duh. He's the team manager of a very promising kid's team. However, the enemy team suddenly brings on an adult in the middle of the game. Gandalf rightly thinks that's unfair and tells the adult to back off, this is a game for ten year olds. They get into a fistfight, they are both arrested, but Gandalf is let out on bail, while the other one isn't.

I need to write this fanfic, I think.

Please.do. ;)

[hymer]

"A Ring of Power looks after itself, Frodo. It may slip off treacherously, but its keeper never abandons it. At most he plays with the idea of handing it on to someone else's care - and that only at an early stage, when it first begins to grip. But as far as I know, Bilbo alone in history has ever gone beyond playing, and really done it. [" ...] Granted, this statement is not entirely accurate

You wonder why Gandalf said that. He was given a ring by Círdan, who was given it by Celebrimbor*. He may have been unaware that Elrond received Vilya via Gil-galad, though I doubt it. And the dwarven rings it seems passed from father to son before the death of the ring keeper, something Gandalf knew in the Hobbit.
And of course, Sauron famously gave the rings to the Nazgûl, though that's likely different, both due to the intention and the lore and power of Sauron. And they gave them back to him.

*Edit: On thinking more, it may have gone Celebrimbor -> Gil-galad -> Círdan. I don't reallt recall. But it's a few hand-overs.

[hamishspence]

Maybe the histories of the owners of the Nine have become well known enough at this point for Gandalf to be able to describe how their owners never abandoned them (Sauron only getting them back when the owners had become Wraiths and subject to his authority).

[Beleriphon]

Maybe the histories of the owners of the Nine have become well known enough at this point for Gandalf to be able to describe how their owners never abandoned them (Sauron only getting them back when the owners had become Wraiths and subject to his authority).

Or its a function of the Nine, that Sauron's control was so great he could demand the rings be returned.

[Stealth Marmot]

Gandalf the Grey or Gandalf the White?

[The Glyphstone]

Gandalf the Grey or Gandalf the White?

Monty Python And The Holy Grail's Black Knight?

[Stealth Marmot]

Monty Python And The Holy Grail's Black Knight?

With Benito Mussili- DON'T START THAT WITH ME!

[The Glyphstone]

With Benito Mussili- DON'T START THAT WITH ME!

Glad to know someone got it.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Guys, guys, Gandalf is a divine bard 1/paladin 11 in an E6 setting, with the Devoted Performer and Sword of the Arcane Order feats and the Mystic Fire Knight ACF.

Servant of the divine? Check.
Member of an elite group following the Secret Flame Mystic Fire? Check.
Is a bigger badass than almost everyone else in the setting, but is low-key about it? Check.
Lawful Good moral center of his party? Check.
Fills his allies with courage and is unswerving in his own devotion? Check?
Very durable and resistant to most effects? Check.
Charisma and social skills out the ears? Check.
Skilled in melee combat? Check.
Smites evildoers and drives them off with glowy stuff? Check and check.
Blasty fire magic that comes from a different source than his other powers? Check.
Can smack Theoden with a staff to dispel Saruman's hold over him? Check.
Able to use signature low-level magic effects like light, knock, and daylight but only a handful of times? Check.
And most importantly, rides a smart, strong, holy horse that commands others of its kind? Check, check, check, and check.

I mean, it's obvious, isn't it?