EMPIRE3! II - CWBG - Slavian Girls Play Hard to Get

[Lord of Monies]

So becoming a merchant prine/holy land etc requires a score of 10 in the stat to enact, but does it specifically require your Stat 10 special action? Example, could you develop a new technology and become a merchant prince in the same turn, or only one as they both require the special action?

[QuintonBeck]

Tables updated

As always, if you have any questions/comments/concerns you can file form Z421 in triplicate, submit one to the review board, one to the GM labor board, and retain one for your records. Confirmation of receipt and acceptance on the waiting list will arrive in 3-6 weeks. let me know right here in the thread.

There were two issues I noted myself, both related to leader changes.

Dimple since Boris reassumed the throne in Round 5 and Aed is treating this as you changing rulers in Round 4 the accrued Diplomacy and Intrigue increases go to Boris, not Miqhail. This is reflected in the tables.

Legionary, Kythia is correct

Legionary, your stats are wrong.

If the Crimson Duke is an heir to the Black duke then the roll is 5d4 in order (DMEIF) with a plus one for previous ruler's stats above 4 and a (non stacking) +2 for stats above 8. If he's not then it's 5d4 in any order with two floating +1s. In neither of those cases could you have got a 6 in military given your rolls and in either case you'd have a diplomacy higher than 2 (because also the previous round's stat increases carry over and you took four diplomacy last turn)

In the table I've treated the Crimson Duke as a child and heir to the Black Duke with stats rolled in the dice rolling thread treated as rolled in order with modifiers applied due to Vlad's stats at his death. This gives Konrad the following stat array.

Diplomacy [3]
Military [4]
Economy [5]
Intrigue [1]
Faith [2]

So becoming a merchant prine/holy land etc requires a score of 10 in the stat to enact, but does it specifically require your Stat 10 special action? Example, could you develop a new technology and become a merchant prince in the same turn, or only one as they both require the special action?

It is a use of your Stat 10 action, yes. The only "special" action that doesn't use that ruler's 5/10 special for an attribute are Resolution actions to burn a ruler's score of 10 on a single roll.

The First Technology Fair is now up!
You can find it here

Quoting since it was left at the bottom of the last page. Thanks for hosting Tentreto!

[Kythia]

Can I just confirm that the printing press is going ahead as recorded in the IC thread - plus one to any one non military action per turn. Going to affect some discussions and proposals if that's the bar is all and I want to lock some conversations down.

[Aedilred]

Can I just confirm that the printing press is going ahead as recorded in the IC thread - plus one to any one non military action per turn. Going to affect some discussions and proposals if that's the bar is all and I want to lock some conversations down.

It is.

+1 to <action type> is still the rough guideline for a new technology intended to give a mechanical bonus. The printing press is obviously more versatile, but unlike those techs it can only be used on one roll per round, whereas most techs are usable as many times as you can take relevant rolls (up to seven actions, plus any non-action rolls, although that's obviously an extreme case).

As always, I welcome suggestions of technologies that do something other than a flat bonus to a certain action type, but those tend to be more complicated and therefore require more discussion (and may also be turned down if they are thought to add too much unnecessary complication).

[Kythia]

That's fine, but that isn't plus one to action type ,it's plus one to (almost all) action types. We had been discussing techs on an Empire 2 power level - plus one to conversion, or resisting assassination or whatever - and I was just confirming that those needed beefing up to plus two to faith, plus two to intrigue, etc.

[QuintonBeck]

Can I just confirm that the printing press is going ahead as recorded in the IC thread - plus one to any one non military action per turn. Going to affect some discussions and proposals if that's the bar is all and I want to lock some conversations down.

It is.

+1 to <action type> is still the rough guideline for a new technology intended to give a mechanical bonus. The printing press is obviously more versatile, but unlike those techs it can only be used on one roll per round, whereas most techs are usable as many times as you can take relevant rolls (up to seven actions, plus any non-action rolls, although that's obviously an extreme case).

As always, I welcome suggestions of technologies that do something other than a flat bonus to a certain action type, but those tend to be more complicated and therefore require more discussion (and may also be turned down if they are thought to add too much unnecessary complication).

That's fine, but that isn't plus one to action type ,it's plus one to (almost all) action types. We had been discussing techs on an Empire 2 power level - plus one to conversion, or resisting assassination or whatever - and I was just confirming that those needed beefing up to plus two to faith, plus two to intrigue, etc.

The Printing Press is one of those things that always comes up in Empire and despite being on version 3 of the game it's still difficult to address. The printing press is pretty revolutionary and had a massive impact in the real world. It's hard to think of a good limited factor to apply it to that makes sense and isn't balanced just to balance, certainly in the terms of restricting it to a single attribute. With easily replicated sheets of written word you can, without stretching credulity, make a solid argument that it should benefit each stat. The Printing Press is a big deal tech and has a broad application. As Aed says, it's still limited to one roll/round at a whopping +1. A +1 tech to conversions, buyouts, or another common roll can increase a whole round's rolls whereas the press can only increase one in a round. In other words, its the slow steadily useful tortoise tech to another more focused tech's hare.

It's sort of a case of not all techs being equal, or more accurately, not all techs working the same way. E1 gave us a lot of headaches with its more unique techs and lack of review. E2 got clamped down to largely being +1 to X roll techs which, while useful, were rather dry and I think deterred some people creatively. In E3 we're trying to restore the freedom of E1 to come up with unique techs while maintaining a good head for balance that overreached in E2. The printing press is one of the few techs I can think of that would give a +1 to one roll/round regardless of attribute type (The "this may increase with future tech" is the only part I take issue with regarding the IC description since another revolution in that arena is probably real life years of in-game time away)

Technologies, and balancing them, is one of the harder aspects of GMing Empire. I don't think I ever did it and Aed probably won't either but I'm going to go ahead and say, if we do find a technology is extremely unbalancing it may be revised even after approval. The approval process should prevent that from being necessary but it's possible we make a mistake. Of course, we won't do this unless it seems absolutely necessary to prevent the game from becoming unfun due to a technology's unforeseen consequences.

[Kythia]

My..."concern" is the wrong word but it's the closest I can think of is with the baseline power level it sets. Obviously it isn't overpowered because it's the only tech but it does set a benchmark. At this stage in the game I'd consider a plus one to one <stat> per turn way more useful than plus one to five <action> per turn. But that tech would clearly be underpowered. As such, to get any sort of parity you'd be looking at plus two to one stat once per turn. Get four of them and you're laughing.

As I say, the power level can't possibly be "wrong" or "too high" or anything like that as there's nothing to compare it with. It is however way higher than Empire 2 and I just wanted to confirm that was deliberate.

[moossabi]

God I hate how close togther the 'edit' and reply with quote' buttons are to one another...

I'll try to repair everything, just give me an hour or two or three...

[QuintonBeck]

My..."concern" is the wrong word but it's the closest I can think of is with the baseline power level it sets. Obviously it isn't overpowered because it's the only tech but it does set a benchmark. At this stage in the game I'd consider a plus one to one <stat> per turn way more useful than plus one to five <action> per turn. But that tech would clearly be underpowered. As such, to get any sort of parity you'd be looking at plus two to one stat once per turn. Get four of them and you're laughing.

As I say, the power level can't possibly be "wrong" or "too high" or anything like that as there's nothing to compare it with. It is however way higher than Empire 2 and I just wanted to confirm that was deliberate.

It is deliberate but it shouldn't be considered to be "setting a baseline" anymore than someone figuring out how to print sheets of paper should set a baseline for how someone builds boats or forges swords or whatever else another tech might do. Obviously, this will happen regardless of what I say and it is a game with the need to have balance but the driving force behind a tech should be "does this bonus make sense" followed by review and revision to make sure it isn't OP/unbalancing.

As I said, the printing press is a revolutionary world-changing technology. It's going to be very difficult to "upgrade it" for a higher bonus any time within the foreseeable since the next step would likely require an industrial revolution first. Now, take a cipher tech that gave a bonus to Intrigue rolls as an example, that's something that can be improved much easier than a printing press so it'll be a lot easier to develop the next step sooner with less pre-reqs for a higher roll modifier.

Think of it like this, if it's a big deal tech with a broad application it's likely to be a low bonus that's difficult to raise. If it's a more niche/specific tech it will be much easier to raise the bonus higher with subsequent techs.

[Kythia]

Okey dokey

[Aedilred]

The other thing to bear in mind is that while techs are often viewed as proprietary, they aren't tied to any one player. They will get spread around and assuming that the tech is useful, introduced at an early enough stage, and not guarded hyper-fanatically by its inventor (as most non-military techs are not), it will probably end up in the hands of most players given enough time.

So it matters less whether one tech is more powerful than another than it might appear, because after a while it will come down to how the players apply the technologies, and how good they are at maintaining the necessary resource requirements, rather than that one player has a technology that another doesn't. Obviously if techs are too powerful they could unbalance things before they have a chance to spread, but the latter is something we will be keeping an eye on (and I don't think is particularly applicable in this case especially as the tech looks like it's going to be traded this round).

The only other reason I can think of for balancing techs strictly against each other is that a lot of people don't want to "waste" an E10 on something apparently substandard - and while that's not something I want to write off completely as a concern, nevertheless not something that troubles me so much I think it's worth pre-emptively nerfing techs to guard against.

That doesn't mean balance isn't a concern, of course, just that I don't think it's the end of the world if some techs end up being a bit better than others. As Quinton says, that is in any case both probably inevitable, and realistic.

Military techs are a slightly different kettle of fish and the need for internal balance there is more acute, I think.

[Tentreto]

I'll knock off that future improvement bit then. It was discussed whether it could be upgraded to give +1 to two rolls, or similar, but I guess in real terms, it probably is best to leave that out.

[Lleban]

Tables updated

As always, if you have any questions/comments/concerns you can file form Z421 in triplicate, submit one to the review board, one to the GM labor board, and retain one for your records. Confirmation of receipt and acceptance on the waiting list will arrive in 3-6 weeks. let me know right here in the thread.

There were two issues I noted myself, both related to leader changes.

Dimple since Boris reassumed the throne in Round 5 and Aed is treating this as you changing rulers in Round 4 the accrued Diplomacy and Intrigue increases go to Boris, not Miqhail. This is reflected in the tables.

Legionary, Kythia is correct



In the table I've treated the Crimson Duke as a child and heir to the Black Duke with stats rolled in the dice rolling thread treated as rolled in order with modifiers applied due to Vlad's stats at his death. This gives Konrad the following stat array.

Diplomacy [3]
Military [4]
Economy [5]
Intrigue [1]
Faith [2]



It is a use of your Stat 10 action, yes. The only "special" action that doesn't use that ruler's 5/10 special for an attribute are Resolution actions to burn a ruler's score of 10 on a single roll.



Quoting since it was left at the bottom of the last page. Thanks for hosting Tentreto!

I thought I increased the resource quantity for giant mushrooms

[QuintonBeck]

I thought I increased the resource quantity for giant mushrooms

Round opener unclear. Blame Aed.

I've added another BBK trading post to the region.

[Aedilred]

Round opener unclear. Blame Aed.

I've added another BBK trading post to the region.

Yeah, that's what that thing was meant to indicate; sorry for the lack of clarity.

Thanks to Quinton's sorting out the trades, we now have a list of capital regions suffering from an instability-causing absence of resource requirements:

Seloris
Phoenix Demesne
Highlands of Mi'vara
Yssa
Xin Kun
Sheol
Khada’Aldul
Kingdom of Euqeen
Chosen of the Sun (Sunlands)
Medved
Adler

Instability in these countries will continue to grow unless action is taken.

[Shadowz1797]

It's not marked as such in the spreadsheet, but goats should count as livestock no?

[Aedilred]

It's not marked as such in the spreadsheet, but goats should count as livestock no?

They do, yes.

[Shadowz1797]

They do, yes.

Okay good then my requirement is fulfilled

[Zayuz]

Region 4 still has an open spot! For now.

Catrus, note that this conversation is also relevant to you

Ah.. I hate to be that guy, but I'm afraid I both own and have written up region four.

If your player name is Lleban, this is an important post for you! Otherwise, please review this region for posting Aed!


Region 4 - Plains of Cas Verrole

Spoiler: Geography

Show

Inland from the coast lies an expanse of territory dominated by shallow plains and trees. The untamed wilderness lies where previously uncharted lands once existed, only mapped out and colonized first by the scouts of people of Baalbek. What they discovered was an abnormally bleak landscape, featuring a small lake around the west side of the region and the main bulk of the forest existing around it. Further west where there are no bodies of water the land is more rocky, jutting up in small spikes from the ground often about the height of ten feet. Though the soil would be fit for growing, the lack of water has rendered it dry and mostly unusable without the aid of a well. Only to the far north corners of the region do larger hills form, ending with a single mountain over in the north-west. It is not particularly tall or impressive, but hosts a fair amount of trees along its slopes.

The people of Baalbek made no claim to own the lands nor the trees they chopped to ship back to their homeland; and that lack of a claim prevented many of their people from being harmed when the Selorian guard arrived to lay claim to the not-so-fertile land. Maps were negotiated for a fair sum and information on the region stolen from their humble foresting camps, granting the realization that the area was totally undefended. Thus the discovery was quick, and work could be set out much faster and more confidently than it could have been should they have taken the time to chart it themselves.

By chance when the region was being rediscovered by the Selorians, the scouts elected to make shelter in a cave rather than their tents. This cave connected to a small network beneath with at least 6 other reported entrances that all lead to a single domed cavern of massive size. The whole thing appears to be unkempt, with strings of moss and stalagmites hanging from the ceiling. On the walls bear marking like the scars left by a blade against skin; deep, thin, and piercing. There was no sign of life in the cave except for a collection of easily exterminated bats, and it has since received the name of the “Hallow Caverns.”

Wildlife in the region includes a small sum of deer that gather around the lake, a couple packs of wolves that help to keep their numbers thin, and a large collection of wild rabbit, horses and boar who prowl the more open land to the east. None of these animals are very open to human contact, and strive to hide in smaller packs when possible.

Spoiler: Culture

Show

As far as a culture goes, it is hard to attribute much to a lonely lumber outpost in the woods. Before the colonization of Seloris in 1025, such an outpost was all that stood of civilization on the empty frontier. Life there was simple and traditional of the Baali people. Make much of little - And strive to please the god of harvest. Their small village was a calm one, not enough time given to its development for even a single generation to pass. However, since the days the two thousand men with steel in hand entered the area things had begun rapid change.

The first settlement by the Selorians was an extension of that of the Baali, the people who had set up the trade post in the region. So long as they complacently accepted their new Baron then they would be free to continue as they were. Others would be forced to leave or killed upon refusal. The captain of the outpost was told to return to his land and inform their leader that the land was under the rule of Lord Vaerin now, and that if he wished for his exports to continue peacefully that they would receive a large portion of the profits or something would be traded back in return.

With the captain gone, rule of the region was transferred to the leader of the Savvran gang by the name of Lady Lessaki the ‘Strategist,’ known across the Barony for their militant style and structure. While a great house for her was constructed, work begun immediately on watchtowers and fortifications around the village so that the few who inhabited the village of Savras (named by the Savvran gang) would not be caught unaware by any threat.

Those loyal to the Savvran gang would soon move into the region, bringing trade, feuds, and labour with them. Over the next years the village blossomed in record speed, becoming a haven for the diligent and ruthless followers of Lady Lessaki. A rule was made soon after the formation of the village that restricted the Balli from taking up any form of arms.

Because the region is under Selorian rule, Selorian laws and punishment are given. The code is very strict in the area. The Balli are natives to Baalbek who moved to pursue trade. They have dark skin, olive hair and hazel eyes. Selorians by contrast have olive skin tones and dark hair. The ratio of the Balli to Selorians is around 1:4, effectively rendering the culture to mimic that of Seloris but with additional racial tensions.

Spoiler: Faith and Trade

Show

Wood [Minor] Is one of few immediately harvestable resources in Cas Verrole, surrounding the lake to the west of the region. The wood trade was first set up by the Balli people, who use axes and saws to make the most of the forests while still planting more for seasons to come.

Food, particularly non game meat is quite desirable across the area. With a lack of growing room beyond the soil surrounding the lake, fruits and things need to be imported to satisfy a complete healthy diet. Without that balance sickness and weakness tends to spread, creating unrest.

Trade Post One: Baalbek
Trade Post Two: Closed
Trade Post Three: Closed

With less secure borders around Cas Verrole than Aerok, those who would preach might find themselves more at home than the cynical capital of Seloris. This tolerance has generally lead to the more devout peoples arriving in the colony, setting up several temples of Shishiyan faith. By contrast, the Balli people have roots in their own native faith with the two gods (Water and Harvest) that they brought over to the eastern world. The faith is tolerated, though discouraged by the government of the region.

Holy Center one: Shishiyan
Holy Center two: Shishiyan
Holy center three: Baali Religion

Unfortunately Lleban never got back to me, and I forgot to post it in the lands thread shortly thereafter. It was not to be posted until he reviewed it anyhow.

My apologies.

[Lleban]

I'm so sorry its perfect btw. It feels like i informally colonized this region before you took it over.

[Aedilred]

Ah.. I hate to be that guy, but I'm afraid I both own and have written up region four.

Unfortunately Lleban never got back to me, and I forgot to post it in the lands thread shortly thereafter. It was not to be posted until he reviewed it anyhow.

My apologies.

I was referring to the trading posts, not the region as a whole

Did I not approve that? I guess not. I seem to remember some discussion about the extent of historic Baali colonisation along the same lines as scepticism concerning the Sheol Empire, though I think I settled that with you over Skype even if not here.

Lleban, I am blaming you for all of this, just so you know.

In any case, it's approved.

[Zayuz]

I'm so sorry its perfect btw. It feels like i informally colonized this region before you took it over.

I was referring to the trading posts, not the region as a whole

Did I not approve that? I guess not. I seem to remember some discussion about the extent of historic Baali colonisation along the same lines as scepticism concerning the Sheol Empire, though I think I settled that with you over Skype even if not here.

Lleban, I am blaming you for all of this, just so you know.

In any case, it's approved.

Hah, just trade posts then. Seems like I'm the one who's got to keep better track of things after all.

In any case, thanks for the approval both of you! I really should have sent you a PM or something on it at least, it's entirely my bad for not making the attempt. I'll post it in the lands thread right now, that way I can't forget.

[Lleban]

I was referring to the trading posts, not the region as a whole

Did I not approve that? I guess not. I seem to remember some discussion about the extent of historic Baali colonisation along the same lines as scepticism concerning the Sheol Empire, though I think I settled that with you over Skype even if not here.

Lleban, I am blaming you for all of this, just so you know.

In any case, it's approved.

I see I see..."crawls to dunce corner"

Edit: could we colonize an unclaimed region on the map.

[Mary_Sue]

I see I see..."crawls to dunce corner"

Edit: could we colonize an unclaimed region on the map.

I do not believe so. If I am not mistaken, peaceful colonisation is no longer an option for on the map regions. You may only conquer on map regions or press claims on them, should you have a pre-existing one.

I am not entirely certain, but I think you can peacefully colonise off map regions, though that requires you to have an ocean faring tech and to take an action to discover one.

[Catrus]

I am not entirely certain, but I think you can peacefully colonise off map regions, though that requires you to have an ocean faring tech and to take an action to discover one.

Alternatively, you can just be a dink, and snipe them out from under those who do discover them. But that also requires seafaring tech.

[BootStrapTommy]

I see I see..."crawls to dunce corner"

Phoenix Demesne

Your fault, Lleban. Your fault.

[Aedilred]

I do not believe so. If I am not mistaken, peaceful colonisation is no longer an option for on the map regions. You may only conquer on map regions or press claims on them, should you have a pre-existing one.

I am not entirely certain, but I think you can peacefully colonise off map regions, though that requires you to have an ocean faring tech and to take an action to discover one.

Mary is correct. Regions on the map can be conquered, or, if the option exists for that region, claimed. Colonising these regions in the normal sense - i.e. setting up enclaves and moving your own people over there to import their own culture, language, and so on - can be done, but would involve violence, since the people who already live in that region would object. So such efforts would still require conquest in mechanical terms, just with accompanying colonisation fluffwise.

Colonies can be established in off-map regions, in the same sense as usual in historical terms (e.g. European colonies in north America, Australia, India etc.). Given the difficulty of sending large numbers of troops to such regions, colonising these regions using Diplomacy can probably be considered the default, although you can certainly invade and attempt to conquer them if you like. It is debatable to what extent "peaceful colonisation" is actually possible. People can report their colonisation efforts however they like, but others should be encouraged to consider that the actions post recording the natives welcoming their glorious new masters with fruit baskets and flower garlands might just be state propaganda covering up a campaign of oppression, enslavement and genocide. If Pepper is colonising a region, this is almost certainly the case.

As we mentioned in one of the podcasts, it was partly for that fluff reason that colonisation was taken out of the game for main map purposes: we felt that the way it was often treated was a bit of a cop-out, allowing people to still consider and present themselves as hippie peacenik good guys while imperialistically taking over huge swathes of land, and by implication was a bit of a whitewashing of what colonisation actually tends to involve.

[moossabi]

So there's no event going on this round? If not, I'll just host a conference for the eastern peninsula players because the Exalted knows we could use more exclusive events.

[Kythia]

So there's no event going on this round? If not, I'll just host a conference for the eastern peninsula players because the Exalted knows we could use more exclusive events.

That would be more help next turn, really. A few of us don't have the spare actions to attend and I at least will have techs to share next turn.

[Aedilred]

So there's no event going on this round? If not, I'll just host a conference for the eastern peninsula players because the Exalted knows we could use more exclusive events.

There's the technology fair. And it's open to all.