Hearthstone 19: Patches In All The Wrong Places

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

With regards to tapping, it's just gonna happen eventually. I give it one year before they introduce something like that (either "attack a friendly minion => special effect" or "if this minion didn't attack this turn, ...")

I think it's likely. You could also fix some of the minion-killing issues (and lack of interesting choices other than ATTACK) with something like the following:

If you target your Hero with a minion instead of attacking with it, give it Taunt until the start of your next turn.

Again, something like this would be a HUGE (and possibly unhealthy) shift for the game, but it might lead to more interesting decisions, and provide a way to preserve minions you want to keep around.

[Joran]

For those who don't frequent Reddit: Ben Brode raps about the Secrets of Un'goro: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEmnpRSgqQk

The subreddit asked the Brode to sing a song because the cinematic didn't have a song, breaking the long running tradition.

BTW, it's best at 1.5 times speed.

[moossabi]

After I finished the update, that popup from battle.net that said "Hearthstone: Now Playable" made me laugh much more than it should have. It's funny because it's true...

[Destro_Yersul]

Also confirmed that there will be two Legendary cards per class (ugh), one minion and one Quest.

Apparently there's only going to be five neutral legendaries, so it's not actually a higher concentration of them.

[Seerow]

Apparently there's only going to be five neutral legendaries, so it's not actually a higher concentration of them.

Still means more class specific legendaries, which means more legendaries required to make a number of decks. Less things like Kazakus/Patches that give you 3-4 decks you can play, more things that give you just a single deck you can play.

Basically exactly what I expected after they announced Hall of Fame.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

How many viable decks does the game need to stay fresh for four months? Because eventually, even if there are a dozen viable decks people will naturally gravitate to the one which has a 1.5% higher win rate than the others. The ability for people to share decks online, whether through guide sites or even just high level players streaming their games, contributes to the lack of variety. Why slog through an experimental deck building process when you can just crib Reynad's notes?

Is that really the case, though? In every asymmetric competitive game I've seen, from fighting games to MOBAs, players don't just blindly pick the highest-winrate options. They tend to pick options with a sufficiently-high winrate, but also factor in other elements, such as preferred playstyle and the parts of the game that they prefer to engage in. Having a 52% winrate vs a 50% winrate is a small-enough difference that personal preferences will override it.

Netdecking also doesn't hurt variety, because it helps to streamline and speed up the prototyping process, which in turn leads to potentially more exploration and innovation.

Deck variety and game freshness is directly tied to the versatility and potency of the tools that a game gives its players. Hearthstone does not give its players versatile tools.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

Deck variety and game freshness is directly tied to the versatility and potency of the tools that a game gives its players. Hearthstone does not give its players versatile tools.

Hearthstone's streamlined game systems likely do contribute to the lack of variety. But that's always been touted as one of its strengths and a major contributing factor to its popularity. I mean, if "staleness" becomes a recurring issue the devs might be forced to evolve the game into something more complex. And that seems like a really risky move to make. I don't mean tacking on new mechanics like Discover or introducing new Tavern Brawl-style modes. I mean things like allowing players to react on their opponents turn, giving minions activated abilities, redoing the combat rules, etc (stuff that other posters have mentioned lol).

[otakuryoga]

Kinda sad that this brawl doesn't progress class-win quests. It even says 'Mage' under Kazakus.

because it would not be very fair/nice to have a brawl that only works for 3 of 9 classes
every brawl works for either all 9 classes to get quests done or none(even if some brawls quickly meta up to be "only these 2 or 3 classes can actually win games"{looking at you mr 10 copies of 3 cards brawl from a while back})

[Landis963]

because it would not be very fair/nice to have a brawl that only works for 3 of 9 classes
every brawl works for either all 9 classes to get quests done or none(even if some brawls quickly meta up to be "only these 2 or 3 classes can actually win games"{looking at you mr 10 copies of 3 cards brawl from a while back})

Alleria vs. Medivh, back around TGT's release, says differently. They can do it, they've just decided not to this time.

[The Glyphstone]

Yeah. They could have coded, say, Han'cho to give win credits towards all three Goon factions.

[Gandariel]

Whoa, whoa, WHOA!

The technology isn't there yet!

[Rodin]

Having played a bit more, I'm not actually sure the new Arena is an improvement. A step sideways, perhaps.

Before, it was all about curve. Get decent minions and play on curve. However, because everyone's decks were clogged by basic common cards the actual power difference between decks wasn't that great. There were exceptions, of course, but in general even if you had a sub-par deck you could make a good shot at a comeback by drawing well.

Now it seems like the power difference between decks is far more pronounced. The Mage player that got offered 2 Firelands Portals, 2 Blizzards, and a Flamestrike is playing against the Paladin that got offered 3 Eye for an Eye and 2 Sacred Trials. Getting a good spell offering is far better than getting a good minion offering, and there are a lot more chances to get good spells now.

So now if you get a good deck, you're getting half your games being blowouts and the other half being really tense matchups. If you don't get a good deck, you might as well Retire at once because you're extremely likely to go 0-3.

[Nerocite]

Heroic Brawl is back next week, only this time it's dishing out MSOG packs. Looks like they're trying to suck up gold before Un'Goro.

[PsyBomb]

Heroic Brawl is back next week, only this time it's dishing out MSOG packs. Looks like they're trying to suck up gold before Un'Goro.

Yep, leaving this one alone just like last time. Reaction is the same as when I just pulled a Legendary and had it turn out to be Nozdormu, when I play primarily from phone. "Meh"

[Haruspex_Pariah]

Heroic Brawl is back next week, only this time it's dishing out MSOG packs. Looks like they're trying to suck up gold before Un'Goro.

Yeah. Tavern Brawls are one of the places I go to when I want to avoid the ladder and it's meta. Back when I didn't have much of a collection the pre-made Brawls let me fight on an even playing field and otherwise there's some interesting twist to the rules. Betting 1000g and needing, what was it, 6 wins to break even is not my cup of tea.

[Kish]

I wonder how many people played Heroic Brawl the first time.

[Zevox]

I wonder how many people played Heroic Brawl the first time.

Enough, apparently.

But yeah, just means next week amounts to having no Brawl for me.

[Joran]

Heroic Brawl is back next week, only this time it's dishing out MSOG packs. Looks like they're trying to suck up gold before Un'Goro.

I'm happy to watch all the streamers try-hard and explain their moves. I enjoyed it last time, even though it was almost all shamans after win 7.

[Anarion]

I'm happy to watch all the streamers try-hard and explain their moves. I enjoyed it last time, even though it was almost all shamans after win 7.

I'm expecting the decks to be more diverse this time because of the very recent pirate nerfs. Nobody has sorted out between Jade Druid, various Rogues, and the Kazakus decks yet, so this is a good time for them to do a competitive tournament in the client. Even though I don't plan to participate.

[Epinephrine_Syn]

Yeah. They could have coded, say, Han'cho to give win credits towards all three Goon factions.

I'm actually surprised they didn't, cause IIRC, that's how it was the first time the 'gang bosses fight' brawl showed up.

[Anarion]

I'm actually surprised they didn't, cause IIRC, that's how it was the first time the 'gang bosses fight' brawl showed up.

You just showed up as a class, with the gang bosses shouting at you in that one, but then you counted as 3 classes. This time, they made you the gang boss, but you don't count as any classes at all. It doesn't make a ton of sense, but I have to guess it's the use of custom heroes and hero powers that messes it up.

[Landis963]

You just showed up as a class, with the gang bosses shouting at you in that won, but then you counted as 3 classes. This time, they made you the gang boss, but you don't count as any classes at all. It doesn't make a ton of sense, but I have to guess it's the use of custom heroes and hero powers that messes it up.

Given that the tooltip for Han'Cho's hero power buff literally reads "Missing Ability Art," that seems like a very valid conclusion.

EDIT: It still reads like that two days later, so yeah.

[thirsting]

Spoiler: New normal?

Show

Priest, went 7/3.

8 dragons! Synergies are real in new arena. Even got Wrathion to draw more than one card few times.

[Hamste]

Is arena really that slow right now? That deck has 2 one drops (one of which is northshire), two 2 drop (turn 1 mind vision or potion of madness may help though), 1-4 three drops (if nerubian isn't in hand at turn one it isn't a three drop) and two four drops (possibly more with nerubians) one of which is a 3/3 and the other is good removal. The late game is some of the best I have seen for arena though. Over all seems very slow compared to what arena was like before where they would run you over if you didn't curve perfectly every time.

[thirsting]

I don't know, but it doesn't feel particularly slower than before. Just got quite lucky with my early game draws quite often.

[Anarion]

Spoiler: New normal?

Show

Priest, went 7/3.

8 dragons! Synergies are real in new arena. Even got Wrathion to draw more than one card few times.

Is arena really that slow right now? That deck has 2 one drops (one of which is northshire), two 2 drop (turn 1 mind vision or potion of madness may help though), 1-4 three drops (if nerubian isn't in hand at turn one it isn't a three drop) and two four drops (possibly more with nerubians) one of which is a 3/3 and the other is good removal. The late game is some of the best I have seen for arena though. Over all seems very slow compared to what arena was like before where they would run you over if you didn't curve perfectly every time.

No, it's not that slow, I think he lucked out a little bit in going 7-3 without getting overwhelmed. There are more spells generally though, so those multiple drakonid operatives are even more likely than before to grab you something that can bring you back from a losing board state, and priest is one of the best classes for coming back since they can heal themselves if they stabilize. I think the fact that the lategame is so spectacular was enough to succeed a lot.

But if someone else is planning a draft, you still really want to hit your turns 2-4 on curve, it's one of the most consistent ways of winning.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Hearthstone's streamlined game systems likely do contribute to the lack of variety. But that's always been touted as one of its strengths and a major contributing factor to its popularity. I mean, if "staleness" becomes a recurring issue the devs might be forced to evolve the game into something more complex. And that seems like a really risky move to make. I don't mean tacking on new mechanics like Discover or introducing new Tavern Brawl-style modes. I mean things like allowing players to react on their opponents turn, giving minions activated abilities, redoing the combat rules, etc (stuff that other posters have mentioned lol).

It's not really the mechanics of Hearthstone that contribute to the "lack of versatility" I was talking about, though. It's the card design. Every card just feels so un-impactful and vanilla when you come back to Hearthstone after seeing other CCG-style games.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

It's not really the mechanics of Hearthstone that contribute to the "lack of versatility" I was talking about, though. It's the card design. Every card just feels so un-impactful and vanilla when you come back to Hearthstone after seeing other CCG-style games.

Eh. I feel it's both. 90% of games end up as "how can I optimally clear my opponent's board while retaining presence myself." Giving that power to the attacker rather than letting the defender have the ability to assign damage means that turns are awfully predictable, and often simply solvable with fairly limited variance in acceptable outcomes.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

It's not really the mechanics of Hearthstone that contribute to the "lack of versatility" I was talking about, though. It's the card design. Every card just feels so un-impactful and vanilla when you come back to Hearthstone after seeing other CCG-style games.

Aren't the two kind of related though? The core mechanics of a game inherently limit card design. Maybe the design philosophies too, but I think the devs have done okay within Hearthstone's limits. Ignoring balance issues.

Just so we're on the same page, can you list some examples of these impactful cards you've seen in other games. Then we have some comparison points.

[Anarion]

Aren't the two kind of related though? The core mechanics of a game inherently limit card design. Maybe the design philosophies too, but I think the devs have done okay within Hearthstone's limits. Ignoring balance issues.

Just so we're on the same page, can you list some examples of these impactful cards you've seen in other games. Then we have some comparison points.

No, there's a difference. Magic has way more complex cards, but has still had extremely stale metagames at times where players got really bored with it and they lost a lot of money from people not enjoying the game. It often results from degenerate decks or certain extremely oppressive strategies. For example, you could point to the pre-nerf pirate package in Hearthstone as a design problem. It's not a boring card, it has a weapon interaction on STB, the completely new Patches effect of flying out of your deck, and a bunch of interactions with other pirates and other minions like totems. Very interesting design, but that early game setup in combination with other aggro cards was making it so that most other strategies just didn't work.

I actually think that it's neither the design nor the overall mechanics, but specific things that lead to decks with very little thought and decision-making.