Tower of God: Turtles Everywhere

[Anteros]

We already know.

Rak is the physical personification of awesome.

He's been treated like a joke for a bit too long. I'm glad to see something serious actually happen with his story. On the whole, the story would benefit quite a bit in getting away from constant Bam Shounen powerups and doing more with Rak and Khun.

[JavaScribe]

The latest.

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Baam feels like he will disappear when he fulfills the prophecy like everybody keeps asking him to. I've kind of wondered the same. Now he's trying to figure out how to define himself.

Rachel wants to become her idealized self for real, no surprises there.

She has also ensnared a bunch of his friends in a trap. I wonder how many of Baam's friends she's going to have to kill before he can finally accept that she kind of needs to die.

Zahard wasn't evil to begin with, apparently? What in the world could have twisted his personality that badly?

[Olinser]

The latest.

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Baam feels like he will disappear when he fulfills the prophecy like everybody keeps asking him to. I've kind of wondered the same. Now he's trying to figure out how to define himself.

Rachel wants to become her idealized self for real, no surprises there.

She has also ensnared a bunch of his friends in a trap. I wonder how many of Baam's friends she's going to have to kill before he can finally accept that she kind of needs to die.

Zahard wasn't evil to begin with, apparently? What in the world could have twisted his personality that badly?

I'd assume that whatever happened to the original group of Zahard and the house heads happened on floor 135, which we know almost literally nothing about except it has a Guardian that is pretty hostile. As has been known for a long time, Zahard personally sealed the entrance to the 135th floor, and all climbers are considered Rankers when they finally get to the 134th floor. I have real trouble believing Zahard and the other originals would suddenly just stop climbing - so SOMETHING on floor 135 caused them to stop, and I doubt it was just the Guardian.

[Anteros]

"Hey Yura, I need you to just forget about getting revenge on the guy who killed your mom, because he can make me pretty!" What great writing.

Honestly, this story has been slipping quite a bit lately. It feels like SIU is rushing to push towards bigger and bigger events rather than focusing on the world building and character interactions that made the comic good in the first place.

[Ravenlord]

To be honest that doesn't come off as bad writing to me, but merely Rachel being Rachel. She's extremely sociopathic and narcissistic, and will only consider people as long as she can use them for her own gain. Not only that, but she is petty as hell. Remember, she had tried to kill Baam for being better than her, even though he could have carried her almost all the way to the top. Then she (tried to) kill Koon for slighting her, despite him chosing to spare her before.

Given recent revelations, I fully expect her current plan to backfire and put her into a deeper hole.

[Dragonus45]

Nah, I think it is more likely that she is going to get away with this yet again, get a power boost out of it, and keep enough of her allies to make the trade off worth it. Scum like her can always seem to find a way to hang on and squeeze out a win, so long as they can manage to make someone trust them enough to make a betrayal stick and she is nothing if not good at making people not realize her evils. I suppose having such a massive place with poor information flow helps. As for Zahard I think the simple explanation is that between climbing the tower, consolidating his power, and general age he simply became more and more cold hearted, dickish, and tyrannical. Also the current one is still a bit of a bastard in his own right, if not quite at the level the adult him had become.

[Ravenlord]

Hm, to be frank, she doesn't seem to be doing that well. She gets some allies time to time for certain, but they detest her almost universally; Baam's team in contrast have almost blind trust in him, and aren't much weaker either.

In terms of raw power, the only thing Rachel got so far was that invisible guardian thingy. Compared to Baam who is going toe-to-toe with Jahad v1.0, that's the bare minimum to keep her in the story. Heck, without that thing, I think she would be ganked in short order.

If I had to compare them, Baam is climbing the tower in earnest, while Rachel just seems to be stumbling along.

[Olinser]

Hm, to be frank, she doesn't seem to be doing that well. She gets some allies time to time for certain, but they detest her almost universally; Baam's team in contrast have almost blind trust in him, and aren't much weaker either.

In terms of raw power, the only thing Rachel got so far was that invisible guardian thingy. Compared to Baam who is going toe-to-toe with Jahad v1.0, that's the bare minimum to keep her in the story. Heck, without that thing, I think she would be ganked in short order.

If I had to compare them, Baam is climbing the tower in earnest, while Rachel just seems to be stumbling along.

That's actually in keeping with the theme that the author has been pushing since the beginning - Baam vs Rachel, is, at its core, a study of selflessness versus narcissism.

Rachel sees everything from a prism of how it affects HER and how SHE benefits from it. She tricked Baam into opening the door to the Tower so she could get in (and it was heavily implied that was the only reason she was ever his 'friend' to begin with), refused to take Headon's test because she didn't want to risk herself, and manipulates everybody around her to try and win.

Baam, on the other hand, while he is pretty stupid about it, always sees things from a prism of how he can help somebody else. He entered the Tower not because he wanted to but because he wanted to help his friend. He risked his life in what seemed like an impossible task to find his friend (twice - if you consider the test from the Guardian was explicitly going to be much harder than the normal test). And the only reason he joins FUG is because they threaten his friends.

At its core, Baam only wants to be stronger so he can help/protect his friends, and is willing to sacrifice everything about himself to do that. Rachel wants to be stronger because she DESERVES it, and will sacrifice anyone and anything ELSE to get it.

And at the end of the day, because he tries to shoulder the burden, Baam constantly gets stronger and stronger despite not actually having power as a goal, only as a method to protect his friends. Rachel, on the other hand, despite having power as her main goal, relies upon everybody else to do her dirty work so she never grows, and thus is increasingly forced to rely upon people far more powerful than she is to carry her higher.

[Anteros]

You're all right that it's consistent with Rachel's character to be this way. What's bad writing is if Yura goes along with it. She probably won't though, so maybe I jumped the gun. This will give her an excuse to ditch Rachel and join Bam's harem.

[guttering flame]

You're all right that it's consistent with Rachel's character to be this way. What's bad writing is if Yura goes along with it. She probably won't though, so maybe I jumped the gun. This will give her an excuse to ditch Rachel and join Bam's harem.

Why would Bam and his friends wants her? She could be his secret fan stalker though, I guess. It's a nice reverse of her initial teen pop star role.

[Anteros]

Why would Bam and his friends wants her? She could be his secret fan stalker though, I guess. It's a nice reverse of her initial teen pop star role.

Because he has a complex about rescuing people? IDK why they'd want half the people on their team, but they're still there. If they're willing to recruit her fanboy they'll be willing to recruit her too.

Besides, she's semi-powerful, intelligent, has inside information about Rachel's group, and a grudge against them. They have more reason to want her than most of the random people they pick up.

[Dragonus45]

Plus her super luggage is a really powerful tool for getting into and out of tough situations and is the kind of thing that could lead to even more elaborate and crazy plans from our main characters.

[Lethologica]

Yura might just be coerced to go along with Rachel, whether by her fancy guardian or her powerful 'friends'.

[lord_khaine]

He's been treated like a joke for a bit too long. I'm glad to see something serious actually happen with his story. On the whole, the story would benefit quite a bit in getting away from constant Bam Shounen powerups and doing more with Rak and Khun.

I honestly think those ruined an otherwise really good and unique story.

[Anteros]

I honestly think those ruined an otherwise really good and unique story.

Pretty much. I keep hoping we'll get away from that and back to what made the comic good, but I'm becoming less and less optimistic about it over time.

The story went from a really interesting piece about a group of friends who rely on each other and grow together...to completely generic Mary Sue wish fulfillment schlock. Bam changed from a character who stood out to others because of his personality and attitude into random anime protagonist #23409 who's only really special because he gets hundreds of power ups that he never really had to work for while his formerly interesting companions basically just serve to stand around and exclaim how special he is.

[Ravenlord]

Thing is, the story almost literally began with Baam receiving - and surviving thanks to - the Black March, a needle he shouldn't be able to handle but can anyway because the weapon decided to like him. Then it turns out he has incredibly exceptional shinshoo control... etc etc. The new powerups are somewhat jarring, but if you re-read the story, Baam had kept getting them since day 1.

As for the change in focus, that was to be somewhat expected to be honest. I will also agree that the initial premise was more fresh, but one has to see that it could only hold interest for so long. It would have gone stale, and then we would be complaining how the story jumped the shark again. If anything I would like the story to shift a little more, and give more focus on the politics of the tower - namely how the FuG, Zahard and Urek factions interact with each other as Baam makes waves.

[Anteros]

I obviously can't speak for everyone, but the original premise still had a lot of appeal for me. It might have gotten old eventually, but we were nowhere near that yet. Bam was always clearly special, but his specialness wasn't so overbearing that it overshadowed every other character in the story like it does now. He's just gotten way too powerful way too fast. Even putting aside the fact that none of his powerups feel earned at all, he's overshadowing the rest of the cast to the point where their contributions are meaningless. At the very least it needs to slow down to the point where Khun, Rak, and Endorsi can stay relevant to the overall plot.

[guttering flame]

I obviously can't speak for everyone, but the original premise still had a lot of appeal for me. It might have gotten old eventually, but we were nowhere near that yet. Bam was always clearly special, but his specialness wasn't so overbearing that it overshadowed every other character in the story like it does now. He's just gotten way too powerful way too fast. Even putting aside the fact that none of his powerups feel earned at all, he's overshadowing the rest of the cast to the point where their contributions are meaningless. At the very least it needs to slow down to the point where Khun, Rak, and Endorsi can stay relevant to the overall plot.

I suppose that was the author's point? Baam is becoming a god-like figure while the rest are just strong mortals. I'd prefer if the characters' interactions remained complex like in the beginning but I guess that's not the story the author wanted to tell.

[Anteros]

I suppose that was the author's point? Baam is becoming a god-like figure while the rest are just strong mortals. I'd prefer if the characters' interactions remained complex like in the beginning but I guess that's not the story the author wanted to tell.

I mean, something can be the author's point and still be bad. Lots of Mary-Sue wish fulfillment characters are intentional. It doesn't mean we can't call them out for what they are.

[JavaScribe]

The latest.

The red protrusions look an awful lot like the things sticking out of a certain prince's back.

[JavaScribe]

The latest.

The Tower is officially at war.

I kind of wonder how tests are going to be administered for open FUG members.

[JavaScribe]

New comic.

I'm confused here. Rachel has given up countless opportunities to use Baam as a loyal pawn and done everything in her power to make him go away. And now that he declares he's going to do just that, she leaves behind bait and asks him to stalk her?

[Dragonus45]

New comic.

I'm confused here. Rachel has given up countless opportunities to use Baam as a loyal pawn and done everything in her power to make him go away. And now that he declares he's going to do just that, she leaves behind bait and asks him to stalk her?

So lets try to pin a few things down on what Rachel seems to want here. Ever since the big reveal of her being a mega turbo @#$! it's become increasingly clear that she deliberately set out to find Bam when he was locked away, and her actions after doing so reek of grooming and manipulating him until something violent happened. Eventually it seems like Bam hurt someone but it is still unclear if she intended it or not. People have commented on Bam appearing to be stalking an ex, but the relationship feels a lot more parental given what we see of her teaching him and caring for him after finding him. From there Rachel tried to abandon him to enter the tower, and it seems like she might have been trying to leverage what her special knowledge is to get into the tower and liver her special fairy tale life of wanton manipulation and aggressive betrayal until she got her wish to see the top of the tower. From the way she has been talking the last few chapters it really is clear she already had some idea about how the tower and the people in it functioned and really sees nothing wrong with the way she has been acting when she tries to climb the tower. Then Bam shows up and steps right into a spot labeled "Main Character" and makes her suddenly feel like a secondary character in her own story. If anything her attempting to steal the Thorns could be a sign she is literally trying to steal some aspect or another of Bam's supposed destiny for herself to fuel her own climb. Plus I think that whatever it is she knows about Arlen also makes her think he isn't the pair of coat tails she wants to ride all the way to the end. So she does everything she can to abandon him and leave him behind, but an abuser and manipulator like her is not going to react well when Bam suddenly declares that he has grown past her and her abuse. So she tries to hit him with some kind of surprise like that and at the least put him back under her control in some way because even when he was chasing her, he was very much under her control. She had leverage, even if she wasn't choosing to use it. This is just her best attempts to save her own bacon and put Bam back where she thinks he belongs.

[Anteros]

I'm honestly just looking forward to finally moving past this Hell Train arc. It's been forever.