Tower of God: Turtles Everywhere

[Olinser]

"Having editors" is both a boon and a bane. Editors meddling with creative control has been a long standing problem in both western comics and Japanese manga. It's at least partially responsible for the rapid decline into suckage Bleach undertook as an easy example (editors pushed for Kubo to take the series in a direction he did not want to, and as a result we got the Soul Society arc. Then we got the Soul Society arc again. And again.).

For every success story of an editor improving the story with this kind of relationship (Toriyama's editor pushing the Cell saga, for example. 19 and 20 were supposed to be the main villains, editor didn't like them, we got 17 and 18, he didn't like them, we got Cell, editor suggested he transform like Frieza so we got Semi-Perfect Cell, he hated the design of Semi-Perfect so we got the final Perfect Cell) you get two stories of it not turning out nearly as well (from the same manga, similar meddling during the Buu arc is what made that arc kind of a slog overall).

So while the raw technical side may suffer a midge from lack of experienced editors, we can at least be certain that what we're seeing is the artist's true vision without outside influence or pressure to change the story. For better or worse.

On the subject of Tower of God specifically, I was actually thinking about making a thread myself about a week ago (I went looking for one and didn't find it). I caught up to the current chapter several months back (Bam was just beginning to fight Hoaquin as I recall, and Khun was trolling Rachel) but stopped. Need to catch back up again.

Agreed that not nearly enough Rak is in the more recent chapters, and when he IS there he doesn't accomplish anything. I did find my interest waning after newer, edgier Bam first appeared and I don't really take a shine to any of the new cast. I don't DISLIKE them, but the Baam/Khun/Rak trio was awesome and needs to come back to center view.

The other problem with editors is they also tend to try to keep authors in 'safe' stories and directions. A lot of the best original stories were done completely without professional editors - and then follow up stories or sequels fell back into formulas and completely failed to recapture what made the original popular.

[Fri]

The other problem with editors is they also tend to try to keep authors in 'safe' stories and directions. A lot of the best original stories were done completely without professional editors - and then follow up stories or sequels fell back into formulas and completely failed to recapture what made the original popular.

But without editors, we also ended up with Star Wars Prequel

If you read Kazuhiko Shimamoto's semi-autobiographical mangas, it shows how interaction between mangaka and editors are basically back and forth (sometime literal) fistfight, with each party completely sure that if the manga do something other than what's in their mind, it will completely suck-ass. Kazuhiko's author avatar in the manga even tells his assistant that "no mangaka that give up to his editor will ever make a good manga" which eventhough is surely hyperbole in the line of the over-the-top tone of the series, is obviously a glimpse of his mind.

Basically, we can see that mangaka also need strong personality, and best manga is what happens when editor and mangaka manages to find something in between. The best example I can think is One Piece. From glances of interviews, we can actually see that Eichiro Oda is both affable and have strong personality, and he can argue his editors well, and that's the reason why disregarding subjective quality, One Piece keep the tone, in comparison of Bleach, or in lesser example, Naruto, which all start roughly in the same time.

BTW slightly unrelated, regarding dragon ball, I think I remember stories from interview that at certain point of cell saga, Toriyama and his editor are basically making things up on the spot chapter-by-chapter and even he don't actually know what's going to happen next. So he finishes a chapter, and call his editor, "so... what do you think should happen next?"

[Rynjin]

Haven't heard that one. Mind you, Toriyama is WELL known for writing everything by the seat of his pants. Mostly because he's a comedy writer who somehow ended up writing a Shonen action manga. Most of Dragon Ball's more balls to the wall elements come from him writing that week's chapter, no planning, and going "Wouldn't that be cool/funny?" and then you get stuff like Monster Carrot, Frieza's third form being a Xenomorph, and Gotenks' move repertoire.

That's why, I think, his editor worked so well with him. He is a hella flexible writer. He can make and sell last minute changes, because the whole idea was last minute anyway.

Beach and Naruto tried to do the same thing, but Kubo and Kishimoto couldn't roll with the punches as well. Beach being not panned at all and Naruto having a somewhat rigid plan for what's going to happen (there is a surprising amount of foreshadowing for seemingly out-of-left-field events if you reread. And quite a few chapters back from them happening) and being screwed by editing just a bit (the war arc is stretched because gotta make that money).

One Piece has the best of both worlds, kinda. Oda knew where to start, and where he wanted to end from before the first chapter. Everything else is made up arc by arc, near as I can tell.

[Lethologica]

I don't know if it's an editing thing so much as a style thing. Kubera, for example, is anything but meandering, and constantly refers back to the overarching plot, yet it's still very tight with its information control.

[Miklus]

I keep telling myself "Just one more, then I'll go to bed..."

[Cluedrew]

I only read it because of this thread, and while I'm not caught up and thus can't give a conclusive review I've found it pretty mediocre. The art is rock solid, and it's pretty clear that some of the mediocrity comes from the translation being pretty terrible, but the whole concept and the characters just haven't b een up to par.

I'm going to agree and disagree. On the whole it might be mediocre and the translation does not help. But there is a few things that it does really well, and if you are interested in one of those things it is great.

For me there where two big things: the idea of the Tower and Baam himself. For me these have actually sort of wrapped up. I understand the idea of the Tower and the details aren't enough by themselves. Baam's story is far from over, but at the same time I feel the point of it has been delivered.

So I love the first 1.5 books, took a glance past that but then never really bothered to continue. The parts I cared about seem to have wrapped up so I stopped. Mind you I still get excited thinking about those parts.

[Dragonus45]

It really is one of the best. There's not really much contest. What else is there? Kubera is the only other Webtoon I can think of that's even in the same ballpark of quality.

Nobless is pretty good, as is Dice. But Tower of God really sets the standards for me on webtoons.

[lord_khaine]

So I love the first 1.5 books, took a glance past that but then never really bothered to continue. The parts I cared about seem to have wrapped up so I stopped. Mind you I still get excited thinking about those parts.

I kinda agree on this part. It does feel like the story has lost a lot of its initial mystique and wonder. Instead slowly turning into what to me felt like a rather inferior fighting manga last time i read it.

[Cluedrew]

To lord_khaine: A lot of stories that create their own settings have this happen. Wonder fades as questions are answered and the setting becomes nothing more than a stage for the plot. I think the wonder of it all was were well done, but at the same time it just ran out far too quickly and not enough came in to replace it. Beside Baam himself I am not really interested in any of the character's stories, the over all political story is a good set up but it is between factions we barely know. There are still questions to be answered about the tower, but compared to the time when I didn't even know what the questions were it just isn't enough. Also the fact it has become more and more like real life on a low level doesn't really help.

[Kantaki]

Oh my, the Floor of Tests...
So much betrayal.
And only two cases where it is at least somewhat reasonable.

Seriously, Bam might be a bit too naive to play the game of thrones climb the Tower, but most of the other guys are way too illoyal to get very far.
Even if you have to step over everyone else to reach your Goals doing so at the first opportunity strikes me as a terrible idea.

[lord_khaine]

To lord_khaine: A lot of stories that create their own settings have this happen. Wonder fades as questions are answered and the setting becomes nothing more than a stage for the plot. I think the wonder of it all was were well done, but at the same time it just ran out far too quickly and not enough came in to replace it. Beside Baam himself I am not really interested in any of the character's stories, the over all political story is a good set up but it is between factions we barely know. There are still questions to be answered about the tower, but compared to the time when I didn't even know what the questions were it just isn't enough. Also the fact it has become more and more like real life on a low level doesn't really help.

I guess what turned me away from the serie were what replaced the wonder and mystery. All the random power-ups, enemies only Bam could fight/defeat, random increases in the cast, ect. Felt mainly like episodes of DBZ at times. And there were only few of the new characters stories that were that engaging. I guess mainly Wagnam intrigued me a little, with his mysterious past and motivation.

[Dragonus45]

To lord_khaine: A lot of stories that create their own settings have this happen. Wonder fades as questions are answered and the setting becomes nothing more than a stage for the plot. I think the wonder of it all was were well done, but at the same time it just ran out far too quickly and not enough came in to replace it. Beside Baam himself I am not really interested in any of the character's stories, the over all political story is a good set up but it is between factions we barely know. There are still questions to be answered about the tower, but compared to the time when I didn't even know what the questions were it just isn't enough. Also the fact it has become more and more like real life on a low level doesn't really help.

Personally I still feel tons of Wonder, as time goes on the questions they answer only lead to two more new information comes along, like some stuff about Wagnan, that blows your mind with the implications. Honestly there is a speed bump in all of that for the very first Arc that Viole is in but past the workshop stuff it starts to really take off again.

[Anteros]

Nobless is pretty good, as is Dice. But Tower of God really sets the standards for me on webtoons.

I've tried both of those, but didn't feel they were very good at all. I know they are very popular though, so I guess it's just my personal taste.

[lord_khaine]

Personally I still feel tons of Wonder, as time goes on the questions they answer only lead to two more new information comes along, like some stuff about Wagnan, that blows your mind with the implications. Honestly there is a speed bump in all of that for the very first Arc that Viole is in but past the workshop stuff it starts to really take off again.

I guess it just felt like his story drowned in the random DBZ battles and powerups. As i mentioned before he is one of the very few new people whose story seems intriguing.

[Kantaki]

I'm kinda amused how Bam just keeps catching the interest o princesses while climbing the Tower.
And while I still have some catching up to do Rachel and those FUG guys have to suffer.
Death is too good for them.

Even their scheming gave us Bam acting like a bad dime novel villain.

[Anteros]

On a semi related topic...what's up with these types of stories and mary sues? I'm not talking about Ichigo "I'm super special" level either. Their media is chock full of full blown "I have a solution for every possible problem, even the greatest masters can never challenge me despite being only 13 years old" type characters. Don't get me wrong, I love a powerful protagonist. There's no point in reading if they're never even challenged though.

Western media obviously does this to an extent too...but I don't think you see it nearly as much in mainstream stuff. It's mostly confined to fan fiction.

[Fri]

It's supposed to be.. I wonder what's the word? Basically it was supposed to be new twists on genre, like how for example, at first fantasy literature was mythical and heroic, then because it's saturated writer came out with twist that it's gritty and grey, THEN later because that one is saturated new writer came with the twist that... the world is mythical and heroic. Something like that. So superpowered protagonist was supposed to be a new twist on the genre back then.

Mind that it could work really well if the writer knows what they're doing. Basically, the fight is never supposed to be the focus. The best example would be "Maoyuu Maou Yuusha." The hero there is so powerful that they can singlehandedly fight entire armies, but it's irrelevant for the story. Because the story is about them trying to reform the feudalistic fantasy world into something democratic and rational, and you can't punch political or economic system into submission (though it'd be funny if there's a story where someone punch the house of lords I guess.) It's a fantasy story where the superpowered protagonists try to introduce potato.

[Lethologica]

Spoiler: new chapter

Show

Olinser, I think you're getting your wish.

[Dragonus45]

Chapters like this are why I still see wonder and exploration in the setting, also characters like Joe make the world to round.

Spoiler: S:2 Chapter 239

Show

Spoiler: Really these are HUGE SPOILERS

Show

Bam's backstory REVEALED. At the very least he is directly related to Luslec Mirchea Grace (Leader and Living god of Fug) possibly his grandson. However I'm not sure he is related to Zahard, since it seems like that is very likely going to be Wagnan's thing what with him and his brothers rings being the keys to move past the 134 floor and all the hints that he is the Kings bastard child.

[Kantaki]

The Workshop Battle is interesting. All those plans and etrayals are starting to make ASoIaF look simple, but it is still fun. At least the Viole-thing makes sense now. That plan started to look somewhat suicidal.

And Crocodile is the best
(About Yeon and Bam)
"This turtle is his wife"
No point in denying it girl, Rak said it, now it's official.
I really hope the party gets back together soon.

[Rynjin]

It's supposed to be.. I wonder what's the word? Basically it was supposed to be new twists on genre, like how for example, at first fantasy literature was mythical and heroic, then because it's saturated writer came out with twist that it's gritty and grey, THEN later because that one is saturated new writer came with the twist that... the world is mythical and heroic. Something like that. So superpowered protagonist was supposed to be a new twist on the genre back then.

I believe it's the OPPOSITE actually. This is an old twist on the genre, with soem modern trappings.

Manwha as a popular medium are only about 15 years old. Developmentally they're roughly where manga were in the mid-late 80's.

Let's see, what manga were popular then?

Fist of the North Star: Kenshiro explodes everything, no problem.

Dr. Slump, early chapters of Dragonball: Arale (comedically) destroys everything and defies all expectations. Goku wrecks everything.

There were more in the same vein, but these are the standouts of the time. Ones that have survived in popular culture.

The Mary Sue style protagonist is one that's designed to draw in readers on sheer spectacle. Kenshiro makes people explode, Arale cracks the Earth in half for shiggles, Goku literally eats dinosaurs for breakfast. Pure fantasy wish fulfillment.

It wasn't really until Dragonball shifted into the lead up to the first Tenkaichi Budokai that we go protagonists that needed to train to get better or strain themselves over-much to defeat foes. They were the protagonist, we know they're going to win, so they won.

Now, Manwha aren't completely entrenched in this but they have a lot of the same trends as manga of that time. Protagonists as forces of nature rather than characters, overall. Which is also why Bam is the least interesting person in this manwha, really. Sure, the events surrounding him are interesting, but at his core he may as well be named Hiro Prota Gonist.

[Spacewolf]

I dunno Bam maybe powerful but the only arc that has any sort of happy end is the Workshop battle. The others usually end with someone getting shafted.

[Anteros]

I believe it's the OPPOSITE actually. This is an old twist on the genre, with soem modern trappings.

Manwha as a popular medium are only about 15 years old. Developmentally they're roughly where manga were in the mid-late 80's.

Let's see, what manga were popular then?

Fist of the North Star: Kenshiro explodes everything, no problem.

Dr. Slump, early chapters of Dragonball: Arale (comedically) destroys everything and defies all expectations. Goku wrecks everything.

There were more in the same vein, but these are the standouts of the time. Ones that have survived in popular culture.

The Mary Sue style protagonist is one that's designed to draw in readers on sheer spectacle. Kenshiro makes people explode, Arale cracks the Earth in half for shiggles, Goku literally eats dinosaurs for breakfast. Pure fantasy wish fulfillment.

It wasn't really until Dragonball shifted into the lead up to the first Tenkaichi Budokai that we go protagonists that needed to train to get better or strain themselves over-much to defeat foes. They were the protagonist, we know they're going to win, so they won.

Now, Manwha aren't completely entrenched in this but they have a lot of the same trends as manga of that time. Protagonists as forces of nature rather than characters, overall. Which is also why Bam is the least interesting person in this manwha, really. Sure, the events surrounding him are interesting, but at his core he may as well be named Hiro Prota Gonist.

Bam is certainly a super special snowflake, but at least things sometimes challenge him and he has setbacks. I was thinking more of things like Tales of Demons and Gods. I tried reading it because someone recommended it, and while I don't dislike the art or the setting the protagonist is literally never challenged even a tiny bit. Even if the plot contrives to create some sort of difficult situation he just pulls out a completely new ability and solves it without breaking a sweat.

Random example, but it's what prompted this question, and I've seen this type of character many times.

[Ibrinar]

Well it is a reincarnation manga whether it is reincarnation into your former self or another world that type of manga*, at least the current crop, seems to be overfilled with utterly overpowered characters.

But yeah I know the type you mean, Baam is just an MC with outstanding talent who eventually will become one of the strongest in his setting. But he runs into plenty people that are a threat to him the annoying thing are characters that effortlessly crush any opposition. Why? My guess is wish fulfilment or just because it is easy to write that type of character (Not easy to write well though.)

*(when I use manga that includes manwha since I don't see a point in making clear distinctions)

[lord_khaine]

Yeah, i do also loathe the absurdly overpowered protagonists. Like the guy in Overlord or simular wish fullfillment stories. Baam might be many things, he is not one of those, we have seen countless people who can crush him.

Also did get pulled back into the story. Mainly to see if Wagnam really is the Zaref Prince.

[Rynjin]

I don't mind it in Overlord because all the fun in that show (and I assume the LNs it was based on) is in the plotting, character interactions, and intrigue. Unlike Tower of God, which veers pretty close to standard Shonen action fare, combat is not MEANT to be a challenge to Ains, nor is it meant to be a focus of the series (where it is in, say, Fist of the North star. All about the spectacle of it).

Combat is a speedbump so we get to the more interesting stuff in Overlord.

[Olinser]

Yeah, i do also loathe the absurdly overpowered protagonists. Like the guy in Overlord or simular wish fullfillment stories. Baam might be many things, he is not one of those, we have seen countless people who can crush him.

Also did get pulled back into the story. Mainly to see if Wagnam really is the Zaref Prince.

That honestly doesn't really apply here, though. Sure, Baam is extraordinarily powerful for the Regulars - but as has been shown several times, in an actual fight he's absolutely helpless against even mid-tier Rankers, much less High Rankers.

[Dragonus45]

Now, Manwha aren't completely entrenched in this but they have a lot of the same trends as manga of that time. Protagonists as forces of nature rather than characters, overall. Which is also why Bam is the least interesting person in this manwha, really. Sure, the events surrounding him are interesting, but at his core he may as well be named Hiro Prota Gonist.

Are we reading the same Webtoon? Bam is a super interesting character.

[Anteros]

Are we reading the same Webtoon? Bam is a super interesting character.

Eh, I think they have a point. Even as someone who likes ToG I have to admit that Bam has become more and more like a generic shounen protagonist as time went on.

I kinda miss the arcs when he was a weakling, or at least not much stronger than his comrades, but he got through based on being such a kind person.

[Rynjin]

Twenty-Fifth Bam is a pretty cool dude, but still kinda just there. Most of his interesting features are because of the mystery surrounding why he's special (if at all) and his goals and desires.

Viole and Post-Viole Bam is pretty generic, all in all.