Tower of God: Turtles Everywhere

[Lethologica]

Now, Manwha aren't completely entrenched in this but they have a lot of the same trends as manga of that time. Protagonists as forces of nature rather than characters, overall. Which is also why Bam is the least interesting person in this manwha, really. Sure, the events surrounding him are interesting, but at his core he may as well be named Hiro Prota Gonist.

Ironic because the actual Hiro Protagonist is a pretty interesting dude.

Baam's character has always been limited by how he was established. His naivete could only last so long, his Rachel complex doesn't give him much stake in the conflicts of the Tower, and his Irregular nature makes him an object of interest rather than an agent of interest. He really doesn't have anything to do except get stronger in order to save the person in front of him, no matter the surrounding intrigue. That might change soon, but we'll have to see.

[Fri]

I believe it's the OPPOSITE actually. This is an old twist on the genre, with soem modern trappings.

Manwha as a popular medium are only about 15 years old. Developmentally they're roughly where manga were in the mid-late 80's.

Let's see, what manga were popular then?

Fist of the North Star: Kenshiro explodes everything, no problem.

Dr. Slump, early chapters of Dragonball: Arale (comedically) destroys everything and defies all expectations. Goku wrecks everything.

There were more in the same vein, but these are the standouts of the time. Ones that have survived in popular culture.

The Mary Sue style protagonist is one that's designed to draw in readers on sheer spectacle. Kenshiro makes people explode, Arale cracks the Earth in half for shiggles, Goku literally eats dinosaurs for breakfast. Pure fantasy wish fulfillment.

It wasn't really until Dragonball shifted into the lead up to the first Tenkaichi Budokai that we go protagonists that needed to train to get better or strain themselves over-much to defeat foes. They were the protagonist, we know they're going to win, so they won.

Now, Manwha aren't completely entrenched in this but they have a lot of the same trends as manga of that time. Protagonists as forces of nature rather than characters, overall. Which is also why Bam is the least interesting person in this manwha, really. Sure, the events surrounding him are interesting, but at his core he may as well be named Hiro Prota Gonist.

That's basically what I'm saying. Like the cycle of Heroic fantasy->people twist it by making dark and gritty fantasy->people got bored and twist is back to heroic fantasy.

[Dragonus45]

Eh, I think they have a point. Even as someone who likes ToG I have to admit that Bam has become more and more like a generic shounen protagonist as time went on.

I kinda miss the arcs when he was a weakling, or at least not much stronger than his comrades, but he got through based on being such a kind person.

I totally disagree, just because the main character because strong doesn't mean he suddenly becomes generic protag. Especially in the last couple arcs where you see his conversations in the Rice Cooker showing a great deal of what goes on in his head.

[Anteros]

I totally disagree, just because the main character because strong doesn't mean he suddenly becomes generic protag. Especially in the last couple arcs where you see his conversations in the Rice Cooker showing a great deal of what goes on in his head.

Maybe we read a different translation? I remember that exchange being more like "I just want to protect people" with the other guy being like "wow he's so unique". Pretty generic shounen protagonist stuff.

I think the problem I'm having is that while Bam may be an interesting character, we're not getting enough of his character to keep me interested in him. At this point the secrecy and withholding information is starting to detract from the story rather than add to it.

[lord_khaine]

Yeah, i do also loathe the absurdly overpowered protagonists. Like the guy in Overlord or simular wish fullfillment stories. Baam might be many things, he is not one of those, we have seen countless people who can crush him.

That honestly doesn't really apply here, though. Sure, Baam is extraordinarily powerful for the Regulars - but as has been shown several times, in an actual fight he's absolutely helpless against even mid-tier Rankers, much less High Rankers.

Highlighted what i felt might be an overlooked relevant part...

I don't mind it in Overlord because all the fun in that show (and I assume the LNs it was based on) is in the plotting, character interactions, and intrigue. Unlike Tower of God, which veers pretty close to standard Shonen action fare, combat is not MEANT to be a challenge to Ains, nor is it meant to be a focus of the series (where it is in, say, Fist of the North star. All about the spectacle of it).

Combat is a speedbump so we get to the more interesting stuff in Overlord.

Just cant see much intrigued there either, not with the power imballance. I mean, honestly my impression of it is mainly someone playing a game of d&d while both being player and gm..

[Kantaki]

Okay, the Hell Train does its name justice.
And it seems the conductor has a Sharingan.


Also that Hoaquin guys is creepy as is most of Rachel's Team.
Speaking of Rachel, she still deserves something horrible happening to her*.
Blinding her would be a good start.

And is it possible that people in the Tower get absurdly old? Even if they literally breath magic/life energy it seems a stretch for someone not to age in several centuries. Even if they are secretly elves.Are they? I don't think they are...

*Okay, she has every right not to want to be with Bam and to have her own goals- and there have definitely been times where Bam's obsession with her looks creepy -but how she does things, how she betrays people and uses them for her own goals- I mean sure, everyone does it to a degree, but it seems she takes it further than most -makes it hard to feel much sympathy for her.
My favorite part was her being jealous because Bam has friends that help him while she has to step over others to advance. Well girl, guess why that is the case.

[Anteros]

Okay, the Hell Train does its name justice.
And it seems the conductor has a Sharingan.


Also that Hoaquin guys is creepy as is most of Rachel's Team.
Speaking of Rachel, she still deserves something horrible happening to her*.
Blinding her would be a good start.

And is it possible that people in the Tower get absurdly old? Even if they literally breath magic/life energy it seems a stretch for someone not to age in several centuries. Even if they are secretly elves.Are they? I don't think they are...

*Okay, she has every right not to want to be with Bam and to have her own goals- and there have definitely been times where Bam's obsession with her looks creepy -but how she does things, how she betrays people and uses them for her own goals- I mean sure, everyone does it to a degree, but it seems she takes it further than most -makes it hard to feel much sympathy for her.
My favorite part was her being jealous because Bam has friends that help him while she has to step over others to advance. Well girl, guess why that is the case.

Was there an update? I thought it came out on mondays.

Or...wait...are you referencing older comics? I'm a bit confused.

[Lethologica]

Was there an update? I thought it came out on mondays.

Or...wait...are you referencing older comics? I'm a bit confused.

Kantaki has been doing an archive crawl.

[Dragonus45]

*Okay, she has every right not to want to be with Bam and to have her own goals- and there have definitely been times where Bam's obsession with her looks creepy -but how she does things, how she betrays people and uses them for her own goals- I mean sure, everyone does it to a degree, but it seems she takes it further than most -makes it hard to feel much sympathy for her.
My favorite part was her being jealous because Bam has friends that help him while she has to step over others to advance. Well girl, guess why that is the case.

To be fair to Bam there every interaction we see with him and Rachel in the past shows she essentially raised him and may have been one of if not the very first person he ever interacted with, or at least that he remembers. Add in that the interactions very very strongly are reminiscent of grooming behavior and show her to have heavily manipulated him to be loyal and attached to her as part of that above pattern of using others and Bam comes across less creepy obsessive and more abuse victim having trouble letting go and understanding that his abuser never properly cared for him.

[Anteros]

To be fair to Bam there every interaction we see with him and Rachel in the past shows she essentially raised him and may have been one of if not the very first person he ever interacted with, or at least that he remembers. Add in that the interactions very very strongly are reminiscent of grooming behavior and show her to have heavily manipulated him to be loyal and attached to her as part of that above pattern of using others and Bam comes across less creepy obsessive and more abuse victim having trouble letting go and understanding that his abuser never properly cared for him.

It's also pretty heavily implied that he killed her dad or something at some point. I'm sure it was somehow justified since Bam is the protagonist, but you can kinda understand why Rachel would want to get away from the creepy stalker who killed her family.

Not that her behavior in any other way is acceptable at all.

[Kantaki]

Was there an update? I thought it came out on mondays.

Or...wait...are you referencing older comics? I'm a bit confused.

Yeah, sorry. Reading the story for the first time and occasionally comment on it.

To be fair to Bam there every interaction we see with him and Rachel in the past shows she essentially raised him and may have been one of if not the very first person he ever interacted with, or at least that he remembers. Add in that the interactions very very strongly are reminiscent of grooming behavior and show her to have heavily manipulated him to be loyal and attached to her as part of that above pattern of using others and Bam comes across less creepy obsessive and more abuse victim having trouble letting go and understanding that his abuser never properly cared for him.

Well, yeah. That's the main reason I'm having zero sympathy for Rachel.

Even without her later betrayal in the Tower there's still the fact that it seems she kept Bam alone in his hole on purpose.

I mean even if there was no way to get him out of there the way she told him this definitely was supposed to make Bam put her on a podestal.
And her behaviour before entering the Tower could be interpreted as manipulating Bam into opening the door for her.

And even without that manipulation and betrayal she still abandoned someone whose only contact she was, who literally had no one else in his life.

That she has the gall to say she is jealous of Bam’s ability to make friends when she backstabbed anyone who might have been her friend at the drop of a hat makes me only dislike her more.

[Zalabim]

Despite the implications, I don't think he killed anyone before they entered the tower. I don't think he could. We see his power trigger reflexively the first time he shields Rachel and it causes a small slash (this is why Hwaryun has an eye patch). It just doesn't seem like he was strong enough. Maybe he did something with that knife, but he was also a weakling. He might have hurt someone, but I don't think he could actually kill anyone.

Rachel's problem is that she's a coward and a weakling. Her goal makes no sense to us. She really has no redeeming qualities. She doesn't even embrace villainy with gustocomplete conviction and sincerity. Wangnan is weak but no coward. He views himself as a prince, the future ruler of the tower, and tries to hold himself to high standards. Baam is gifted and brave. His bravery and optimism can also seem foolish.

Spoiler: All about Rachel

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Her behavior could be motivated by a blend of or a toss up between jealousy, envy, fear, concern, and love for Baam.

The tower wants Baam and bends for him. It doesn't want her. He doesn't want anything from the tower but she wants to see the stars and the real sky at the top. Climbing the tower is her dream and it just comes easily to Baam. We saw her jealousy when we got to watch her reaction while Baam took Headon's test.

He makes new friends quickly and freely. He lives carefree and faces danger without flinching. He has enormous natural potential and she's just normal. She wants to be important but doesn't have the power, potential, or strength of character. We saw her envy in her dream of ending up seeing the stars alone while Baam turned away from her to all of his new friends.

Headon put an impossible test before her and later offered a deal. She's been contacted by FUG through the guide. She knows that betraying those bargains will make them a dangerous enemy. She knows, as the rest of the tower does, that an irregular will be targeted by the tower's powerful rulers. The only ones who oppose Jahad and the ten families are the criminal organization, FUG. Any normal person might be terrified in this position.

The way Baam was going, he was going to get killed. He's a weak boy who doesn't back down from danger. Jahad's assassins want him dead. Faking his death and letting FUG use him is really the only hope he has to survive. Arguing about it will just risk it not working. Then he really would get killed. She just has to do this for Baam's own good.

Now, she's already hitched her boat to FUG's sails. The only way for her to get free is if she has allies strong enough to fight FUG's Slayers. She's never going to be that strong. She talks big, but she still struggles with killing people. She still believes in some of the values she taught Baam. Rather than chase after her and fight against FUG and Jahad, basically the entire tower, Baam should forget about her and move on with his life. It's the only way he can stay free, good, and heroic. As long as he chases Rachel, FUG will use her as leverage. Even if she really does love Baam, it's better for Baam if he forgets Rachel.

Though it's not clear how much she knew before going to the tower, what life outside the hole was really like (other than "not as good as Rachel portrayed it/Baam imagined it"), or whether her teaching Baam was planned out by her or any other party. Her role as the lure to bring Baam up the tower might well have started long before either of them entered it.

[Anteros]

Spoiler: Rachel

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I just can't buy any kind of hidden benevolent motivation to her actions towards Bam when she has done so much other stuff that's obviously evil. She has a lot of blood on her hands, and not all of it was necessary. She has repeatedly hurt and killed people that she does not have to hurt in order to survive.

[Dragonus45]

It's also pretty heavily implied that he killed her dad or something at some point. I'm sure it was somehow justified since Bam is the protagonist, but you can kinda understand why Rachel would want to get away from the creepy stalker who killed her family.

Not that her behavior in any other way is acceptable at all.

I've gone through three or four read throughs of the series and I can honestly say I have no idea where that implication was? Could you point me towards it? Not saying it isn't there just that I've never noticed it before.

[lord_khaine]

Your not alone. Its certainly not something thats blatantly obvious. So it does seem a lot like its something thats open to interpretation.

[Anteros]

I've gone through three or four read throughs of the series and I can honestly say I have no idea where that implication was? Could you point me towards it? Not saying it isn't there just that I've never noticed it before.

Not right now. The series is just too big for me to find it easily and I have a test coming up that I'm studying for. I'll find it for you in a few days after my test is over if you still want me to. I was planning on doing a re-read anyway. It's somewhere in the middle if I'm remembering correctly.

Edit: Ok, I should be studying, but I'm a slacker.

Here is part. http://www.webtoons.com/en/fantasy/t...&episode_no=26
We get a flashback scene of someone attacking Rachel, Bam thinking he has to protect her, and then blood.

Here is another part. http://www.webtoons.com/en/fantasy/t...&episode_no=78
Here we get Rachel establishing that Bam "took everything from her" and that she is afraid of him.

There's another flashback scene somewhere that I can't find right now of Bam holding the knife he enters the tower with but it's covered in blood.

I really need to get back to studying. I'm going to hate myself if I fail out of med school because I wanted to talk about webcomics.

[Dragonus45]

So the first bit with him saying he needed to protect her and blood seems to have to do with him getting his brains scattered over the room although at the least the rest of the scene makes it look like whatever he did there was in defense of her which is what she was strongly grooming her towards. The took everything from her line clearly references him being chose over her for the tower. Although if he HAD killed her father or someone else I would bet actual real life money he did so at her request because that is how she operates.

[Lethologica]

Spoiler: Update

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A wild prophecy appears!

Rachel knowing Arlene Grace is another layer of teasing. I wouldn't mind seeing what Rachel did with the Floor of Death fragment of the Thorn if she got it. Dunno how that would happen, though.

Now taking bets on whether or not Karaka is conning Hoaqin.

[Anteros]

So the first bit with him saying he needed to protect her and blood seems to have to do with him getting his brains scattered over the room although at the least the rest of the scene makes it look like whatever he did there was in defense of her which is what she was strongly grooming her towards. The took everything from her line clearly references him being chose over her for the tower. Although if he HAD killed her father or someone else I would bet actual real life money he did so at her request because that is how she operates.

I can see why you think that way, but I just don't think the placement of blood in that scene is coincidental. I think it's meant to apply to both situations.

I also agree that she groomed Bam to defend her. I just think it backfired on her somehow.

Lots of plot explained in this newest update. I'm not sure what to make of it all yet.

[Dragonus45]

I can see why you think that way, but I just don't think the placement of blood in that scene is coincidental. I think it's meant to apply to both situations.

I also agree that she groomed Bam to defend her. I just think it backfired on her somehow.

Lots of plot explained in this newest update. I'm not sure what to make of it all yet.

Yea a lot to digest.

As for the Bam Rachel thing I mainly just start grinding my teeth every time someone brings up the Bam as a stalker thing. Feels a lot like victim blaming to call an abuse victim a stalker.

[Anteros]

Yea a lot to digest.

As for the Bam Rachel thing I mainly just start grinding my teeth every time someone brings up the Bam as a stalker thing. Feels a lot like victim blaming to call an abuse victim a stalker.

He sorta is...but it's entirely understandable from his perspective since he was basically kept in a cave and she stockholm syndromed him into thinking she was the only person who would ever matter to him.

Honestly, he has behaved much better than most real people probably would in a similar situation. I don't think you can really use "stalker" as an insult towards Bam even though he probably fits the technical definition of the word.

[Kantaki]

The "Name Hunt" Station was a horrible place, even by the standards of a death trap like the Tower.
But Bam's solution was great. Everyone wins there.
Well, maybe not Kaiser's family, but they kinda deserve it. Besides, their debt being gone should be nice too.

The developments on the Train are interesting too.
And of course Team Sweet & Sour used a Pokeball on Casano.
I've been waiting for something like that since the first time the Yellow Turtle threw one of his bombs.

[Lethologica]

Spoiler: New updates

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More secrets. There's always more secrets. What Arlene was to Rachel, what Garam kept back from Baam, what Hockney saw in his memory. Well, good.

However things turn out with Yuri, Wilcott the Windy is gonna get blown away. Just hope no one else does. Yuri included.

[ImperatorV]

...I can't decide if Yuri is stupid or brilliant. The fact that I would have done the same thing makes it even harder.

[Kantaki]

Spoiler

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Nice to see Black March again. Green April looks interesting too.

And I doubt they have to worry about Yuri's sanity. Can't damage something that doesn't exist.

[Anteros]

It was a decent chapter.

Spoiler

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Can there be any doubt that Bam is the one the weapons were talking about?

It seems odd that Jahad would go around distributing weapons tied to a prophecy when the prophesied one is supposed to kill him though.

[Dragonus45]

It was a decent chapter.

Spoiler

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Can there be any doubt that Bam is the one the weapons were talking about?

It seems odd that Jahad would go around distributing weapons tied to a prophecy when the prophesied one is supposed to kill him though.

Spoiler

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I don't think he was a weapon, doesn't fit. I feel like the big remaining mystery is how his mom got out of the tower (if she even actually did) and who the god that resurrected him was.

[Lethologica]

Spoiler

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I don't think he was a weapon, doesn't fit. I feel like the big remaining mystery is how his mom got out of the tower (if she even actually did) and who the god that resurrected him was.

Spoiler

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Anteros meant that Baam may be the one meant to unite the 13 Month Series, not that he was ever a weapon himself.

If we're looking for a dark horse candidate, I'd say Wangnan. I have trouble making myself believe that, though.

[Lethologica]

New update

Spoiler

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Baam doing Baam things

Hockney is the thorn fragment, or he has it hidden in his picture, or something. /WMG

Spring Madness Yuri is emphatically not best Yuri, but Garam'll be along to snap her out of it after she does enough damage to be useful (and probably enough collateral damage to justify future angst).

Over/under on Urek Mazino showing up?

[Ravenlord]

Spoiler

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Not sure about future angst... both Black March and Green April have stated that they will not activate again for Juri. Of course, after going this nuts, she may have a convenient reason to never try again either, so her secret failing will be protected. Sigh, that woman and her delicate ego...

I have the feeling Bam is walking into a trap. Things are going too smoothly for him, and if he gets another thorn fragment he will be waaaaay too OP.