Results 31 to 57 of 57
-
2017-02-20, 01:44 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2010
Re: Build a Sorcerer Warmage Dread Necromancer Beguiler.
I am curious as to how you get to 100 000 ? I can see that at high level, every casting gets you 2-3 weeks, and you can cast maybe 30 castings per day. Without cheese, it seems you'll top out just after 500 or thereabouts.
Depends. Like I said, I am just trying to see if such a build can be done. You can make the build with an entry point at a variety of levels. There are also retraining's etc. for the people who like that.
:) That would defeat the purpose of the exercise: To see if we can cover the core competencies of the three fixed list casters with a Sorcerer. Once they get optimized out of their central competencies, they are no longer relevant to what we need to cover.
However, it is almost 8 o'clock here, and my girlfriend is waiting for me so I'll need to come back to the next levels later.
-
2017-02-20, 01:50 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2010
Re: Build a Sorcerer Warmage Dread Necromancer Beguiler.
Sorry, I realized I forgot to explain my thinking here, as regards Versatile Spellcaster: Obviously, we are exceptionally tight for spells known here. So in many cases we'll need to have lower level spells do the work of higher level ones. Hence, we need to heighten spells for a relevant DC. And we'll also need Versatile Spellcaster to use lower level slots to cast higher-level spells.
-
2017-02-20, 02:39 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2013
Re: Build a Sorcerer Warmage Dread Necromancer Beguiler.
I will do a quick writeup for when you return.
For undead army necromancer I tend to like finite & bounded numbers so I use the 40 caster level from Circle Magic rather than any uncapped caster level cheese.
Additionally an undead army necromancer is one of the rare times I suggest starting with an 18 casting stat. 18+2 racial+5 tome+5 HD+6 cloak=36 (relevant for bonus slots)
For each Extended Chain Spell Command Undead (5th level spell via Slaymate) you get 21 per cast and they last for 80 days. You can cast it 36 times in a day (although slightly fewer on active days). You can cast the non extended version 8 more times (but those are half strength). You can cast it more often if you decide Chain Spell is worth of a metamagic reduction feat.
So you get 21 undead per cast, 40 casts per day, and 80 days per cast = 67 200 undead.
Even a weaker necromancer(caster level 20, no extend spell, no Slaymate??, and reserve your top level of spells everyday)
21 undead per cast, 29 casts per day, and 20 days per cast = 12 180 undead.
The really minimalist necromancer(caster level 20, no feats, lesser metamagic rods of chain and extend)
21 undead per cast, 3 casts per day, 40 days = 2 520 undead.Last edited by OldTrees1; 2017-02-20 at 02:45 PM.
-
2017-02-20, 11:05 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2015
- Location
- Frozen City
- Gender
Re: Build a Sorcerer Warmage Dread Necromancer Beguiler.
Lord of the Uttercold Assault Necromancer is the build you're looking for. It's pretty famous and can do everything those three classes can do at the same time.
"Movement speed is the most important statistic in this game."
"Give them no mercy for they give no mercy to us."
"I see one of those I kill it!"
-
2017-02-21, 01:48 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2009
- Location
- Michigan
- Gender
Re: Build a Sorcerer Warmage Dread Necromancer Beguiler.
Have you considered being a kobold or grabbing bloodline feats?
-
2017-02-21, 06:24 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2010
Re: Build a Sorcerer Warmage Dread Necromancer Beguiler.
Chain Spell:) Quite nice, although you have to procure the undead as well:)
I've looed it up, and it seems a really good build as a Warmage/Dread Necromacer build, but surely it is a bit lacking on the Beguiler side.
Bloodline feats yes. Necromantic Bloodline in particular. It grants a number of the Dread necromancer core spells, blcoks Healing type spells which is not a consideration, and is the gateway feat for Kin Mastery which is how we get Rebuke Undead.
In generally, I've been musing that the terminology I've used have been poor. I've been referring to lower-level spells as "obsoleted" when a higher-level spell has come online. What I've really wanted to note is that these are spells that overlap, and there are diminishing returns in having both or all of them. In some cases, you really do want the higher level spall because it is that much better. Charm Monster vs. Charm Person for example. However, in other cases, like Cloudkill versus Acid Fog, upgrading the moment the new option is available may not be a priority.
-
2017-02-21, 06:45 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2010
Re: Build a Sorcerer Warmage Dread Necromancer Beguiler.
Then we have level 6:
Beguiler Core:
Greater Dispel Magic
True Seeing
Dread Necromancer Core:
Acid Fog
Create Undead
Geas
Planar Binding
Warmage Core:
Disintegrate
Acid Fog does much the same job as Cloudkill, and Planar Binding overlaps with Lesser Planar Binding. So we have seven spells, two of which overlaps with lower versions. We'd also like SU VI.
-
2017-02-21, 07:27 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2010
Re: Build a Sorcerer Warmage Dread Necromancer Beguiler.
Level 7:
Beguiler Core:
Nothing.
Dread Necromancer Core:
Control Undead
Warmage Core:
Nothing. Maybe Arcane Spellsurge.
The Beguiler is well past his level of competence by now. We'd quite like Arcane Spellsurge and Summon Undead VII. Harm would be nice, but its not even an option. So that is two spells, maybe three. No overlaps though.
-
2017-02-21, 07:37 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2010
Re: Build a Sorcerer Warmage Dread Necromancer Beguiler.
Level 8:
Beguiler Core:
Mind Blank
Dread Necromacer Core
Create Greater Undead
Warmage Core:
Arcane Fusion, Greater
As usual, Summon Undead VIII. So 3 spells, maybe 4.
-
2017-02-21, 07:47 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2015
- Location
- Frozen City
- Gender
Re: Build a Sorcerer Warmage Dread Necromancer Beguiler.
Um, Dread Necromancer doesn't get Summon Undead VI-IX.
What do you want from Beguiler that can't be accessed through wands? Freezing Fog isn't bad on the Lord of the Uttercold Assault Necromancer. We can probably pick up whatever through the Domain Access ACF from Complete Champion."Movement speed is the most important statistic in this game."
"Give them no mercy for they give no mercy to us."
"I see one of those I kill it!"
-
2017-02-21, 08:00 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2010
Re: Build a Sorcerer Warmage Dread Necromancer Beguiler.
And level 9:
Beguiler Core:
Time Stop
Dread Necromancer Core:
Plague of Undead is thematic, but I can't help but think that we are past the point where skeletons and Zombies are a high priority.
Warmage Core:
Maybe Maw of Chaos.
And also Summon Undead IX. So that is one spell, up to 3 at most. I've been thinking about how to note down overlapping spells or spells that are overshadowed by later-level versions. So maybe noting them in red is the thing. By the numbers, the non-overlapping spells needed are
3/5/5/7/4/7/2/3/1 That's not a very good way of writing it up, I know, but I think it shows that there is a point where its doable. What I have learned from the feedback so far, is that Command Undead absolutely needs to be in there. There are also so many touch spells there that we will in practice need Spectral Hand, maybe through a Wand.
I got to do a little bit of actual work now, then I'll come back to look a bit closer at what I've nominated as "Core" spells of each class, and see if I can get feedback on that. I kind of feel I've done the Warmage an injustice, so that may need another looking at.
Edit: We'll be getting Necromantic Bloodline and Kin Mastery for Rebuke Undead. Necromantic bloodline gives us Dominate Person and Control Undead of the Core spells plus a few other nice ones, such as Vampiric Touch, Wail of the Banshee and Trap the Soul.
That changes the list to 3/5/5/7/3/7/1/3/1Last edited by Grim Reader; 2017-02-21 at 08:08 AM.
-
2017-02-21, 08:15 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2010
Re: Build a Sorcerer Warmage Dread Necromancer Beguiler.
Still, just the Summon list would probably give more versatility, and still be within the minion master role.
Well, the thing I am trying to do here is see if a Sorcerer can be built that can cover the jobs of the out-of-the-box Beguiler, Dread Necromancer and Warmage. So far, I've set a fairly high bar in listing a lot of the spells they have as needed for the job. Later I might try to list out a lesser version of the competence area of each, so a "secondary" Beguiler has the charm and dominate line, a few illusions and battlefield control, etc.
-
2017-02-21, 08:33 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2010
-
2017-02-21, 01:06 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2009
- Location
- Michigan
- Gender
Re: Build a Sorcerer Warmage Dread Necromancer Beguiler.
Do you even need summon undead?
-
2017-02-21, 01:11 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2015
Re: Build a Sorcerer Warmage Dread Necromancer Beguiler.
That seems kind of silly then. Comparing a Sorcerer build to the Beguiler class doesn't prove anything useful. Talking about "core competencies" also misses the point that part of the power of the Beguiler is that you get, for example, shadow walk for free and can just cast it if it happens to be good right now.
-
2017-02-21, 01:25 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2013
Re: Build a Sorcerer Warmage Dread Necromancer Beguiler.
For the most part I don't think so. If you still do not have Rebuke Undead then maybe Summon Undead V would be wise.
Summon I & II are mere skeletons and zombies. You can command those.
Summon III is a Ghoul
Summon IV is a Ghast, an Allip, or a Flying Zombie(you might have one already)
Summon V is Shadow, or wight
Also the Control Undead(7th level spell), Create Undead, and Create Greater Undead spells might not deserve a spell known. The creation spells do not grant control and thus are rarely used (UMD a scroll). The Control Undead(7th level spell) spell is only worthwhile if you cannot Rebuke (and anyone mimicking a Dread Necromancer will learn how to rebuke).
Additionally I noticed basically none of the non undead 7-9th necromancy spells.Last edited by OldTrees1; 2017-02-21 at 01:27 PM.
-
2017-02-22, 05:21 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2010
Re: Build a Sorcerer Warmage Dread Necromancer Beguiler.
Dread Necromancer is the class I am least familiar with of the fixed lister casters. Thank you for helping out here:)
As far as I know the class, Dread Necromancers primary thing is being an Undead minion master. Kill it and add it to your army. In addition, the list brings a number of Fort-targeting save-or-lose spells, a few will-targeting ones and some damage spells. The latter two items should be overshadowed by Beguiler and Warmage abilities. There is also some battlefield control and utility spells which overlap between the lists. And the Summons. And unlike the Warmage, the DN seems to have built-in advantages that mean you can't be quite as good at his thing as he is.
I am considering splitting up the classes in "minimum" and "good" coverage lists. Minimum coverage for a Dread Necromancer would probably be spells needed to do Undead minion mastering and something targeting fort.
The reason there are few non-undead Necromancy spells of level 7-9 is that these spells don't really seem to be essential to the DNs schtick. It is a number of redundant fort-targeting SoL spells and some direct damage. Energy Drain, maybe.
Well, I believe the Beguilers power is mainly the fact that it has a spell list with a number of very powerful spells, gems, at the lower levels, and some good ones at the mid levels. Supported by a number of strong spells. The fact that it also has a number of occasional use, nice-to-have spells is a very small part of its power.
And there is a point coming eventually.
-
2017-02-22, 06:19 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2010
Re: Build a Sorcerer Warmage Dread Necromancer Beguiler.
Oh goody, after multiple failed attempts to replicate the Beguiler with a Sorcerer, at some point, those multiple failures will be added together to teach us the lesson that Beguiler is Tier 3 because Sorcerer is so much better as long as you ignore half the Beguiler class. I can't wait.
-
2017-02-22, 06:41 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2015
- Location
- Italy
- Gender
Re: Build a Sorcerer Warmage Dread Necromancer Beguiler.
I played a Beguiler once, starting from level 1.
We encountered a group of jackalweres from Fiend Folio, with a gaze attack that puts you to sleep.
Obviously I contributed to the encounter in a number of ways, but my power in that case was to have Rouse as a known spell, a thing no sorcerer would have.
-
2017-02-22, 06:47 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2010
Re: Build a Sorcerer Warmage Dread Necromancer Beguiler.
Ok, I'm going to have to do a bit of real work after this, but I wanted to get this one off first, its a bit of a reorganization. These are the Beguiler good coverage spell core. I've marked spells that overlap with other classes spells in blue, and spells that overlap with spells on later levels or are obsoleted by them in red:
I've generally left out spells if they just do the same job as other spells with slight differences (How many "will negates" SoL do you need?) Or if they are corner case, quite infrequently useful spells, or spells that just get done better by the other classes, like Welm line.
Beguiler core, level 1:
Charm Person
Colour Spray
Mage Armour
Obscuring Mist
Silent Image
Level 2:
Blur
Fog Cloud
Glitterdust
Invisibility
Mirror Image
Touch of Idiocy
Level 3:
Dispel Magic
Haste
Major Image
Slow
Suggestion
Level 4:
Charm Monster
Freedom of Movement
Greater Invisibility
Greater Mirror Image
Solid Fog
Level 5:
Dominate Person
Level six:
Greater Dispel Magic
True Seeing
Level Seven:
Nothing.
Level Eight:
Mind Blank
Level 9:
Dominate Monster
Time Stop
This should give an idea of how many spells in the Beguiler "module" is actually core.Last edited by Grim Reader; 2017-02-22 at 06:48 AM.
-
2017-02-22, 10:14 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2010
Re: Build a Sorcerer Warmage Dread Necromancer Beguiler.
Ok, its always been known that a Beguiler at low levels is better than a Sorcerer. But this does put some scale to just how much the Beguiler outclasses the Sorcerer at this stage.
At level 1, leaving out the Beguilers better chassis and actual class features, as well as the redundant and rarely needed spells, the Beguilers core magical arsenal is more than 250 % better than what the Sorcerer gets at this level.
At level 4, when second level spells come online, the Sorcerer has gotten 1 more 1st level spell known, so the Beguiler still has more than 166 % more great spells than him at first level, and also has six times as many great second-level spells known. In total, the Sorcerer has 3 of 11 top pick spells known. Or 5 spell levels compared to the Beguilers 18. 5/18
At level 6, the Sorcerer has 4 1st level spells, two 2nd and one 3rd. He is one spell behind on the level 1s, 4 behind on level 2s, and 4 behind on level 3s. Converted to spell levels, he is behind by 11 to 33
It is important to remember here that we are only comparing top pick spells, which is supposed to be the Sorcerers strongest point.
At level 8, the Sorc has 5 level 1s known. That lets him cover the Beguiler 1st level spells. He has 3 level 2 spells, leaving him lacking 3, and 2 level 3s. Where he is 3 behind. He also has 1 level 4 spell known, where the Beguiler has 5 strong picks. At this point the Sorc may have picked up Solid Fog or Charm Monster though, so he may have a level 1 pick free. 21 spell levels to 55.
At level 10, a Sorcerer has 5/4/3/2/1. Dominate Person is absolutely better than Charm Person. Greater Invisibility or Greater Mirror Image may be picked, I'm assuming one of the two. So the Sorc has 41 spell levels known, the Beguiler has 58.
At level 12, its 5/5/4/3/2/1. By now, Dispel Magic, Fog Cloud or the other one of Mirror Image/Invisibility could be obsolete. By now, It is 55 to 68.
At level 14, the Sorcerer has 5/5/4/4/3/2/1. It is 77 to 68.
At level 16, it is 103 to 80.
At level 18, it is 127 to 86
At level 20, it is 153 to 95.
This is not intended to be a comparison of how powerful the classes are, relative to each other. Although at lower levels, the curves of power will be similar. You'd need to adjust for the fact that the Beguiler has a better chassis with more skill points, actual class features and a few more spells which we haven't really included. However, somewhere around spell level 3-4, the beguiler list starts to go from first pick gems to very good spells, and the Sorcerers capacity to cherrypick better spells will start to pull him up. At some point, after that, having the entire Whelm line just isn't going to cut it compared to Lesser Wish, Arcane Spellsurge and Summon Monster.
I don't really think counting spell levels fully simulates how much better high level spells are than low level ones, but it does at least acknowledge that level 6 spells are far better than level 1s, for example.
What this is intended to do is roughly estimate how much of the Sorcerers intrinsic class resources it takes to do the Beguilers job competently.Last edited by Grim Reader; 2017-02-22 at 10:15 AM.
-
2017-02-22, 11:00 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2013
Re: Build a Sorcerer Warmage Dread Necromancer Beguiler.
The undead are just the flashiest and most overt part of necromancy, DNs also have debuffing and immorality as their schtick. The only part of necromancy that is not the DN's core schtick is the reversal
(restoration & revive).
For example: Greater Bestow Curse(8th) & Astral Projection(9th) would be a good choices
-
2017-02-24, 08:14 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2010
Re: Build a Sorcerer Warmage Dread Necromancer Beguiler.
I realized I should have added a "Feats" section there. We'll need Heighten spell, since we don't have loads of will-targeting SoLs at every level, we'll need the ones we do have to carry the load for longer. And so we'll also need Versatile Spellcaster to lighten the load on higher level spell slots a bit. Happily, both are good feats anyway.
Ok. I am not sure if immorality is well emulated by spells. I think it is more an alignment thing. If you meant immortality, that seems more like class feature :)
I'm going to look more heavily into the debuffing here. I am less certain about the two spells. Bestow Greater Curse is a will-targeting SoL, and Astral Projection, while strong, does not seem part of the Dread Necromancers thing.
-
2017-02-24, 09:29 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2010
Re: Build a Sorcerer Warmage Dread Necromancer Beguiler.
This is ultimately the thesis argument of your entire project:
The thing that 100% of Dread Necromancers do that is powerful and Necromanctic is not part of the Necromancers thing, because I need to define away 3/4ths of each class to get even close to pretending this ****ty Sorcerer can attempt to approximate these classes.
-
2017-02-24, 11:04 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2010
Re: Build a Sorcerer Warmage Dread Necromancer Beguiler.
So next up is the Dread Necromancer. The DN is harder to emulate than the Beguiler, because he has class features that amplify the effect of his spells, such as Undead Mastery, and he has built-in ways of healing undead minions. He also has spells that are not on the Sorc/Wiz list, and spells that are on a lower level on his list. Still, we do what we can.
Feats: We need Necromantic Bloodline as the gateway feat to Kin Mastery, which gives Rebuke Undead. Necromantic Bloodline also grants us 9 spells, Cause Fear, Ghoul Touch, Vampiric Touch, Contagion, Dominate person, Eyebite, Control Undead, Trap the Soul and Wail of the Banshee. It is a good line of fort SoL, Will SoL, a debuff and Vampiric Touch. Ill add them in in green, to indicate that they are free spells.
Necromatic Bloodline also blocks us from learning healing spells, meh.
I've tried to take aboard the constructive feedback, so with less construct undead and more debuff,
Core Spells level 1:
Ray of Enfeeblement
Direct damage spell
Cause Fear
Core Spells level 2:
Blindness/Deafness
Command Undead
Spectral Hand
Ghoul Touch
Core Spells level 3
Ray of Exhaustion
Summon Undead III
Direct damage spell
Vampiric Touch
Core Spells Level 4
Animate dead
Enervation
Black Tentacles
Poison
Dispel Magic
Direct damage spell
Contagion
Core Spells level 5
Cloudkill
Dispel Magic Greater
Magic Jar
Summon Undead V
Planar Binding, Lesser
Dominate Person
Core Spells level 6
Acid Fog
Planar Binding
Waves Of Exhaustion
Direct damage spell
Eyebite
Core Spells level 7:
Control Undead
Area damage spell
Core Spells level 8:
Create Greater Undead
Range damage spell
Trap the Soul
Core Spells level 9:
Energy Drain
Wail of the Banshee
General notes on spells here: In the area of damage spells, the Sorc/Wiz list mostly offers better options at equivalent levels than the DN gets. Although we would quite like the Harm line, yes we would. However, the DN spells also heals undead minions, giving a bit more versatility. In general, we'd also like more ways of healing our undead.
I've not updated the Damage spells every level, seemed a bit of overkill.
Compared to the Beguiler, the DNs spell list is weaker at the low levels, where the Beguilers list contains most of the top picks you'd like anyway, but comes in stronger at the mid-levels. It never really gets the top picks at any level though, unlike the Beguiler.
So by the numbers again, Sorcerer resources needed to emulate the Dread Necromancers job (with the caveat that some class features make this difficult)
In spell levels known, Level 1: 2 of 2. Note that at level 3 the Sorcerer is actually ahead a bit. However in this level range getting resources such as scrolls to handle the more corner-case problems is not as easy as later.
Level 4: 5 / 10
Level 6: 11 / 18
Level 8: 21 / 42
Level 10: 35/ 60
Level 12: 55 / 74
Level 14: 77 / 77
Level 16: 103 / 94
Level 18: 127 / 103
Level 20: 153 / 112
What we are seeing here, I think is an illustration of how the DNs spell choice comes online later than the Beguiler, but maintains more potency after level 4, where the Beguiler suddenly loses steam. Its worth noting that the Beguiler gets almost 50 % more spells of level 5. In general, it is a less resource-intensive endeavour at low levels, but the higher level numbers are quite similar.
This is, however, with less ability to fully emulate the job of the DN.
Once again, it does not measure power, the DN would likely take a hit from the low number of truly first pick spells.
-
2017-02-24, 11:07 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2010
Re: Build a Sorcerer Warmage Dread Necromancer Beguiler.
Aand the direct damage line were supposed to be both red and blue to indicate they overlap with the Warmage spells and the higher-level damage spells.
-
2017-02-24, 11:57 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2013
Re: Build a Sorcerer Warmage Dread Necromancer Beguiler.
Immortality(pretty big part of the DN's shtick) is best emulated via a template(you don't have), then as a class feature(you don't have and are trying to emulate), and finally you can get a poor man's version of immortality via the Astral Projection spell(which is a poor man's way of emulating the soul projection a Dread Necromancer does as a Lich).
Bestow Curse Greater is a will-targeting SoL(which is fine since Necromancy would target both), however it is very versatile and is qualitatively different than what the Beguiler has at that time (and makes Heighten spell less or not needed). If you don't like it you could always choose Animate Dread Warrior instead.Last edited by OldTrees1; 2017-02-24 at 12:00 PM.