OOTS #1066 - The Discussion Thread

[TheNecrocomicon]

Wait, what?!? What in the comic is saying that Andi makes bad leadership decisions because she's an engineer? She makes bad leadership decisions. She's also an engineer. The two are no more connected than the fact that she makes bad leadership decisions and is a woman. Or a former babysitter. Or cold.

Really, I think you're reading into things that just aren't there.

I'm an engineer myself, and I don't feel that way at all. We've got a lot of other characters who were absolute jerks (Celia comes to mind) and were not engineers. Why being an engineer should mean that she gets to *not* be a jerk? I find that this only speaks of the jerkiness of this particular engineer, not of its whole character class.

...

Woah, woah! Anti-intellectualism? This is the comic where the leader of the main characters is a warrior that prides himself of his high INT, and how it makes him a better fighter.

I probably am overreacting and making mountains out of proverbial molehills, but the engineer-bashing just seemed especially heavy-handed in this strip. I sure hope the author's choice of Andi's profession is indeed random, but he never seems to do anything completely off-the-cuff and Andi's whole character arc seems to have been designed to showcase "people in STEM fields suck at leadership", as if that plotline hadn't been done to death in other media already.

And if we want to bring Roy into this, INT is not his primary skill as a fighter, STR and CON are. As much as he has diverse good-to-great skills all around, his class is not one built around INT. On the other hand, an engineer would be, much like a wizard needs INT for study and spellcasting (and Eugene is portrayed pretty negatively too, as was Vaarsuvius at intermittent times prior to character development).

I see some parallels with Bandana vs. Andi to the lasting conflict between Roy and Eugene. In both cases, we have a character who built their abilities with long study and practice who is contemptuous of someone else who they see as having taken the quick, easy and allegedly illegitimate path. Even Vaarsuvius acted that way towards non-wizards before having their misconceptions broken. It's not a new pattern.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Also, i think you'd be surprised at the depth of my voice. Plus, I'm louder and talk faster. What now?

Duel to the death on a convenient beach somewhere. I vote Maui.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

And if we want to bring Roy into this, INT is not his primary skill as a fighter, STR and CON are.

Roy disagrees with your assessment.

And I agree with the others that say you are reading into this what the author has not put in. Andi's shortcomings are unrelated to engineering - indeed, she does not strike me as a particular good engineer either, although she's likely a better engineer than leader, but only because I can't see how she could be worse.

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

I probably am overreacting and making mountains out of proverbial molehills, but the engineer-bashing just seemed especially heavy-handed in this strip. I sure hope the author's choice of Andi's profession is indeed random, but he never seems to do anything completely off-the-cuff and Andi's whole character arc seems to have been designed to showcase "people in STEM fields suck at leadership", as if that plotline hadn't been done to death in other media already.

And if we want to bring Roy into this, INT is not his primary skill as a fighter, STR and CON are. As much as he has diverse good-to-great skills all around, his class is not one built around INT. On the other hand, an engineer would be, much like a wizard needs INT for study and spellcasting (and Eugene is portrayed pretty negatively too, as was Vaarsuvius at intermittent times prior to character development).

I see some parallels with Bandana vs. Andi to the lasting conflict between Roy and Eugene. In both cases, we have a character who built their abilities with long study and practice who is contemptuous of someone else who they see as having taken the quick, easy and allegedly illegitimate path. Even Vaarsuvius acted that way towards non-wizards before having their misconceptions broken. It's not a new pattern.

I think most of the decision behind Andi being an engineer was "I need reasons for her to be angry at Bandi. Ship keeps getting damaged, she could be an engineer. Also, she needs to be holding something with which to knock Bandi out with. Ideally, something heavy and hard, like a tool. Hey, engineer works great for that too! Done."

Also, Wizards in general are depicted as haughty and contemptuous in the strip. I think that's an indictment on the class, not on real-world academia.

Duel to the death on a convenient beach somewhere. I vote Maui.

I agree to these terms.

[Shining Wrath]

First off, on Bones, only Bones herself and Zack were socially inept (and Zack was clearly picked by Bones because she felt like she understood him well because of his similarities to her). Hodgins, Sweets, Camille, and Goodman are all perfectly fine socially. This seems like confirmation bias; some people, usually the main characters, are given unconventional traits to make them more interesting and.or unique. They have more lines, screentime, and focus in general. Others who are also in STEM fields but are background characters do not have similar emotional handicaps, but are less focused on, and thus more forgettable, even though they exist.

Also, i think you'd be surprised at the depth of my voice. Plus, I'm louder and talk faster. What now?

I think there's a lot of "Booth is better at figuring people out than Sweets is because his intuition is better than Sweet's education" going on, too. Hodkins hid his wealth from everyone, and so on.

I've been told more than once that I have a voice like a radio announcer (occasionally by strangers). The reaction from small children when I start singing in church is a constant source of amusement; kids turn around and stare to see who that is taking things down an octave from where their father sings.

Truthfully, I look like "central casting" American CEO / Senator / Governor figure. Tall, deep voiced, full head of silver hair, carrying a few pounds more than I should.

Spoiler

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[Keltest]

Roy disagrees with your assessment.

And I agree with the others that say you are reading into this what the author has not put in. Andi's shortcomings are unrelated to engineering - indeed, she does not strike me as a particular good engineer either, although she's likely a better engineer than leader, but only because I can't see how she could be worse.

Grey Wolf

Roy may be the intelligent fighter, but he almost never uses his intelligence score in a fight. Outside of his leadership duties, his job in a fight is almost exclusively hitting people or getting hit. In fact, rich specifically wrote that scene in because Roy had a lack of scenes where he used his intelligence in a fight.

As for andi...

She left her post in the middle of a crisis to go heckle other people who are doing their jobs, then committed mutiny out of petty spite. She is a far worse engineer than she is a leader, because at least as leader she is trying to do the job.

I don't dislike her so much because she makes engineers look bad, but because she's holding the conflict ball. She's been on this ship for 15 years, she should know better than to harass other people in a crisis. she just doesn't, for this one crisis only, because its needed to move the plot along. She should be doing anything except what she is doing, and that is stretching my suspension of disbelief to the breaking point.

[TheNecrocomicon]

Roy disagrees with your assessment.

And I agree with the others that say you are reading into this what the author has not put in. Andi's shortcomings are unrelated to engineering - indeed, she does not strike me as a particular good engineer either, although she's likely a better engineer than leader, but only because I can't see how she could be worse.

Grey Wolf

Yes, I knew exactly what fight they were referring to. Yes, he uses that INT score to tactical advantage, but STR and CON have always been his primary skills as a fighter -- else he presumably would have been some other class, like the time someone suggested he could have made it as a cleric due to a decent WIS score.

Yes, Andi's shortcomings are unrelated to engineering. That's part of why it feels so gratuitous that the author is not only having her suck at leadership skills but also fly way off the deep end while spouting trite crap about solving problems by hitting things with a wrench and being too obsessed with mathematics to be a decent babysitter.

I sure appreciate my field of work getting used simultaneously as a hate sink and a punching bag for cheap jokes.

[nocoolnamejim]

Andi's been on the ship for 15 years, but she hasn't been taking orders from Bandana for that long.

Two completely different things.

Edit: @Keltest

[Peelee]

I think there's a lot of "Booth is better at figuring people out than Sweets is because his intuition is better than Sweet's education" going on, too. Hodkins hid his wealth from everyone, and so on.

Booth is excellent at figuring people out, but I always got the impression that Sweets was better. Hodgins hid his wealth specifically so he could act like a normal person and be accepted as such, and not have special treatment due to this wealth and status. If anything, this detracts from the idea that he is socially inept in any way, since he goes out of his way to be able to freely be the friendly, gregarious person he naturally is.

Also, I'll give you the height; I'm average, so you probably win on that. And the silver hair (jealous, btw. That looks is classic). So, we can either death fight in Maui, or we can team up to seize the means of production in a glorious coup and control the world under our a benign and just yet strong rule. Your call.

[SaintRidley]

I probably am overreacting and making mountains out of proverbial molehills, but the engineer-bashing just seemed especially heavy-handed in this strip. I sure hope the author's choice of Andi's profession is indeed random, but he never seems to do anything completely off-the-cuff and Andi's whole character arc seems to have been designed to showcase "people in STEM fields suck at leadership", as if that plotline hadn't been done to death in other media already.

If I had to hazard a guess at authorial intention, which I am loath to do because it isn't my cuppa, it seems likely Andi's profession is a deliberate choice, but not for the purposes of showing "engineer = bad leadership." Rather, it seems a deliberate choice based on the need to have the mutineer's job be critical to preventing the things going wrong on the ship from going wrong, and that it's the mutineer's preoccupation with Bandana and her absence from her work that is aggravating the situation. Given Rich probably had at the time he decided Andi's job at least a vague idea that the Mechane would be in need of repairs and that was going to be the nature of the "things going wrong" on the ship, the natural job is head engineer. Presto chango, Andi becomes chief engineer to facilitate the story going forward.

[hamishspence]

Yes, I knew exactly what fight they were referring to. Yes, he uses that INT score to tactical advantage, but STR and CON have always been his primary skills as a fighter -- else he presumably would have been some other class

At least part of it is a desire to emulate his grandfather and defy his father. "Bah! You'll be back to cantrips within a week"- possible hint that had he not gone to fighter college he could have become a wizard. Him being a fighter doesn't mean his starting Int wasn't higher than starting Str or Con.

[Keltest]

Andi's been on the ship for 15 years, but she hasn't been taking orders from Bandana for that long.

Two completely different things.

Edit: @Keltest

That's entirely beside the point. If you cant, in 15 years on the job, learn how to act in a crisis, you have no business doing that job. It doesn't matter that the captain is new, if you leave your post to go harass her, the ship now has nobody acting as head engineer and nobody acting as captain, and after 15 years, Andi should know that.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

She is a far worse engineer than she is a leader, because at least as leader she is trying to do the job.

I disagree. Doing nothing is better than doing a terrible job. Yes, the ship is currently in a not-great state because it's engineer is playing god, but it is still a better situation from the ship's perspective than if, say, the ship cook had knocked out the engineer, and tried to fix the ship with no idea of what they were doing.

Leadership is the same: a void of leadership is bad, but most people know their jobs and can proceed for a while without a leader, even if it is less than ideal in a crisis. But if the void is fulled by a person giving the wrong orders? Then things go even more downhill.

In short, it's the difference between being at rock bottom, and being at rock bottom while digging.

I sure appreciate my field of work getting used simultaneously as a hate sink and a punching bag for cheap jokes.

Again: what? When has there been a single cheap joke about engineering (other than the reference to percussive maintenance, which is an engineer in-joke to start with?)?

Grey Wolf

[Palthera]

Ah, 1066. Normandy just invaded.

If I was filling in an English Literature paper on this I think I'd try and draw some parallels between Harold holding William at bay right until the point that his troops suddenly act too rashly and the inevitable chaos ensues...

[hamishspence]

That's entirely beside the point. If you cant, in 15 years on the job, learn how to act in a crisis, you have no business doing that job. It doesn't matter that the captain is new, if you leave your post to go harass her, the ship now has nobody acting as head engineer and nobody acting as captain, and after 15 years, Andi should know that.

I figure she does know - it's just that she's letting her own ego override her own common sense.

[nocoolnamejim]

That's entirely beside the point. If you cant, in 15 years on the job, learn how to act in a crisis, you have no business doing that job. It doesn't matter that the captain is new, if you leave your post to go harass her, the ship now has nobody acting as head engineer and nobody acting as captain, and after 15 years, Andi should know that.

I don't disagree that she SHOULD know that and clearly doesn't. (At least at the moment.)

I'm just thinking that she probably has acted very differently over those 15 years with Julio in charge. In other words, I'm guessing that the crew and Bandana herself probably gave Andi extra leeway and slack because it's likely that her actions and attitude over the last few months have been different from the majority of her time on the ship.

Andi's clearly gone utterly mental with Bandana in charge, but I'm wondering if she wasn't a decent officer prior to that.

Just speculating.

It doesn't change that Andi's clearly in need of a massive dose of "Gross the eff up."

[nocoolnamejim]

I figure she does know - it's just that she's letting her own ego override her own common sense.

Whoops. Missed this. Yeah, agree with this.

[Spellbreaker26]

You know, I'm finding it a bit difficult to get invested in this situation. It's not because I support Andi, because I don't - she's acting very irrationally, and Bandana is clearly much more suited for command than her.

I think it's because Bandana doesn't have much personality, which is fairly rare for this comic (it's usually good at developing minor character motivations). We don't know a lot about her despite spending loads of time with her. Her personality doesn't pop in the way that Julio or the Sapphire Guards did. As minor characters go, she's not even annoying the way that Celia was, I just have a very poor understanding of her motivations.

I actually think that this was a missed opportunity. Had Bandana been the sort of person who needled Andi, or perhaps a little too harsh in her command style, that would lend the situation a bit more gravitas without actually reducing Andi's culpability. I honestly think the people who support Andi now are clutching at straws, but if the situation were a bit less cut-and-dry I think that it would be more gripping.

[Shining Wrath]

Andi *panicked*. And she panicked because she had no respect for the decision making of one Beatrix Secundus, having once been her babysitter. Irrational panic does not lead to good decisions.

[TuringTest]

Roy may be the intelligent fighter, but he almost never uses his intelligence score in a fight. Outside of his leadership duties, his job in a fight is almost exclusively hitting people or getting hit. In fact, rich specifically wrote that scene in because Roy had a lack of scenes where he used his intelligence in a fight.

Or maybe, he *always* uses his intelligence score in a fight; but not being a flashy magical effect it doesn't show in obvious ways in regular fighting strips, so it needed a specific scene to display it properly.

[nocoolnamejim]

I think it likely that the way Roy uses his intelligence score in a fight typically is in his leadership capacity. Strategy and tactics...directing the actions of the Order of the Stick.

Times like when he fought Thog are probably the exception rather than the norm and a more usual use of that attribute is shown in the ambush he laid out for Nale and Tarquin's linear guild at the last gate inside with the smoke arrow trick.

[Jasdoif]

You know, I'm finding it a bit difficult to get invested in this situation.

We haven't seen how the situation impacts our protagonists yet...and probably not the full extent of the situation, either. Getting hit upside the head unexpectedly (both literally and figuratively) has been kind of a recurring theme this book.

[Rynjin]

Can we kill Andi yet? A pretty good job has been done making her functionally irredeemable as a character.

At least the villains are both competent and charismatic. She's neither.

[40kenthusiast]

Man, we are deep in the woods on this tangent.

Normally, when a character in fiction accuses another character of acting on sublimated stuff from long ago I know enough about them to figure out what's going on, but here I'm just adrift. Like, is Bandanna in the right? Is the engineer? It seems to hinge on whether the boat would have crashed if she didn't pull them away from the giants, but I don't know that.

Is the engineer a hero for saving the ship from Bandanna's need to be a captain? (In which case the flashback is about showing us that she is just acting out a youthful dream.)
Is the engineer a scoundrel for mutinying, caused by her not respecting Bandanna? (In which case the flashback is about showing us the babysitter thing.)

It's not that I refuse to invest in new characters, its just hard to care about them when the author has Elan dangling from the boat and Haley off fighting giant wizards.

[Grytorm]

I think there's a lot of "Booth is better at figuring people out than Sweets is because his intuition is better than Sweet's education" going on, too. Hodkins hid his wealth from everyone, and so on.

Though Sweet seems to consider Freud to be a credible source of knowledge instead of a guy with some bright ideas and some weird obsessions.

[RblDiver]

Kay, I'm going to defend Andi here: no one who still uses at 23* a nickname that they gave themselves at 8 or younger is fit for command.

My sister does. She choose the name she uses to this day back in like first or second grade. She's 35.

[Shining Wrath]

Booth is excellent at figuring people out, but I always got the impression that Sweets was better. Hodgins hid his wealth specifically so he could act like a normal person and be accepted as such, and not have special treatment due to this wealth and status. If anything, this detracts from the idea that he is socially inept in any way, since he goes out of his way to be able to freely be the friendly, gregarious person he naturally is.

Also, I'll give you the height; I'm average, so you probably win on that. And the silver hair (jealous, btw. That looks is classic). So, we can either death fight in Maui, or we can team up to seize the means of production in a glorious coup and control the world under our a benign and just yet strong rule. Your call.

Let's seize Maui as our first step toward global domination! I can be the front man, you can be the sinister right hand man that everyone fears even more than the boss, and together we can share hearty evil villain laughs MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

[Peelee]

Though Sweet seems to consider Freud to be a credible source of knowledge instead of a guy with some bright ideas and some weird obsessions.

Ok, that's just idiot writers not knowing he's long since been discredited, or just appealing to lowest common denominator with the famous name. There's no way a Ph.D in Psych with the FBI would feel that way.

[Shining Wrath]

Ok, that's just idiot writers not knowing he's long since been discredited, or just appealing to lowest common denominator with the famous name. There's no way a Ph.D in Psych with the FBI would feel that way.

Freud's contribution to psychology was recognizing that it was possible that the field existed.

[Spellbreaker26]

We haven't seen how the situation impacts our protagonists yet...and probably not the full extent of the situation, either. Getting hit upside the head unexpectedly (both literally and figuratively) has been kind of a recurring theme this book.

The thing is, when the comic goes away from the protagonists for a long time it usually manages to still be entertaining. Entire strips based around Redcloak and O-Chul managed to be really good, for example, or that whole thing with Therkla. But the pirates are just nowhere near as compelling as the Paladins or Kabota's retinue. This giant fight is in danger of turning into a "trapped by mountain lions" story.

In short, I do care about the effect on our protagonists, but given we've spent four or five strips dealing with this Bandana/Andi fight, I should care at least a little about them, as well.