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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    Default Re: OOTS #1066 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by SaintRidley View Post
    If I had to hazard a guess at authorial intention, which I am loath to do because it isn't my cuppa, it seems likely Andi's profession is a deliberate choice, but not for the purposes of showing "engineer = bad leadership." Rather, it seems a deliberate choice based on the need to have the mutineer's job be critical to preventing the things going wrong on the ship from going wrong, and that it's the mutineer's preoccupation with Bandana and her absence from her work that is aggravating the situation. Given Rich probably had at the time he decided Andi's job at least a vague idea that the Mechane would be in need of repairs and that was going to be the nature of the "things going wrong" on the ship, the natural job is head engineer. Presto chango, Andi becomes chief engineer to facilitate the story going forward.
    Good analysis. Anyone but the head engineer is someone that Bandanna could have freely slapped down hard, and we all would have wondered who is so important that the captain would tolerate so much lip. As a head engineer who was under enormous pressure, many readers would say a good captain needs to show some leniency to a key crew member under such strain, even if it might be argued that how exactly such leniency was applied was a rookie error.

    The Giant wanted a mutiny driven by exactly one individual because it fit the scope of the story arc he wanted to tell here. Head engineer is the obvious choice.

    If it had been, say, the ship's cook alone, such would have been ridiculous. If it had been a disgruntled group within the crew, we would have wondered both why Bandanna was so out or touch (and why Haley and/or Elan did not see it coming), and furthermore that would have made for a much longer story arc.

  2. - Top - End - #92
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    Default Re: OOTS #1066 - The Discussion Thread

    You know Andi, while Bandana might still be the kid you used to babysit in some respects you are worse.
    You still act like the teenager you were back then.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1066 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Grytorm View Post
    Though Sweet seems to consider Freud to be a credible source of knowledge instead of a guy with some bright ideas and some weird obsessions.
    Our culture lacks psychologists with sufficient star power in their name that it could be anything else. The writers are stuck with Freud as the kind of person whom a learned person could gain insights from, even if the idea they want to insert into the conversation would be unrecognizable to Freud.

    If Sweet attributed a quote to, say, Jung or Piaget, 98% of the audience would be baffled.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1066 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Snails View Post
    Our culture lacks psychologists with sufficient star power in their name that it could be anything else. The writers are stuck with Freud as the kind of person whom a learned person could gain insights from, even if the idea they want to insert into the conversation would be unrecognizable to Freud.

    If Sweet attributed a quote to, say, Jung or Piaget, 98% of the audience would be baffled.
    Huh. I always thought Jung was just about as widely known as Freud, by name if nothing else.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1066 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Shining Wrath View Post
    Freud's contribution to psychology was recognizing that it was possible that the field existed.
    Indeed. At the detailed level, approximately everything Freud ever asserted was wrong.

    At the bigger picture level, some of his insights were powerful, worthy of building an entire field of study upon. I would credit Freud with two huge insights: (1) We humans are often irrational in patterns that are understandable (and cannot simply be cured by applying a religious sermon). (2) Children are not dumb little adults who need sufficient information poured into them, but go through stages of development.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1066 - The Discussion Thread

    *Sigh* Not an especially funny strip, but yes it does work that way. People who knew you as a kid hardly ever get that mental image out of their minds.

    I know I have a female family member who has this same problem with her parents, despite the fact that the "child" is well into her fifties at this point.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1066 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ariko View Post
    Huh. I always thought Jung was just about as widely known as Freud, by name if nothing else.
    Maybe. "Freudian" is a household word. "Jungian" not so much. And it has been a long while since I have seen any references to Collective Unconsciousness in the popular press.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1066 - The Discussion Thread

    One of the primary duties of a captain is to chart a course. This means that they spend a lot of time looking at maps. Chances are good that if this area is well mapped, any side passes will be marked as dead ends. Bandana would have studied the charts and was probably trying to make that point in panel 5 before she was interrupted.

    Andi's move may have put the Mechane on a course to something worse than Frost Giants.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1066 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kareasint View Post
    One of the primary duties of a captain is to chart a course. This means that they spend a lot of time looking at maps. Chances are good that if this area is well mapped, any side passes will be marked as dead ends. Bandana would have studied the charts and was probably trying to make that point in panel 5 before she was interrupted.

    Andi's move may have put the Mechane on a course to something worse than Frost Giants.
    Right here, panel #3.

    ... all the best paths through the peaks have been charted.
    Wherever they are going is not the best path under normal circumstances, and it might well be perfectly suboptimal - worse monsters, no way to turn around, and too high for even the undamaged Mechane.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1066 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNecrocomicon View Post
    I probably am overreacting and making mountains out of proverbial molehills, but the engineer-bashing just seemed especially heavy-handed in this strip. I sure hope the author's choice of Andi's profession is indeed random, but he never seems to do anything completely off-the-cuff and Andi's whole character arc seems to have been designed to showcase "people in STEM fields suck at leadership", as if that plotline hadn't been done to death in other media already.

    And if we want to bring Roy into this, INT is not his primary skill as a fighter, STR and CON are. As much as he has diverse good-to-great skills all around, his class is not one built around INT. On the other hand, an engineer would be, much like a wizard needs INT for study and spellcasting (and Eugene is portrayed pretty negatively too, as was Vaarsuvius at intermittent times prior to character development).

    I see some parallels with Bandana vs. Andi to the lasting conflict between Roy and Eugene. In both cases, we have a character who built their abilities with long study and practice who is contemptuous of someone else who they see as having taken the quick, easy and allegedly illegitimate path. Even Vaarsuvius acted that way towards non-wizards before having their misconceptions broken. It's not a new pattern.
    Honestly? Without delving too into politics there's a significant correlation between Engineers/IT and those with a stubborn "I'm right you're wrong" mindset, or outright extremism. It's a field that lets you be very competent at one skill while not requiring you to be well-rounded or cosmopolitan, so it's inviting to authoritarian types. Somewhat similar effect for doctors.

    It's not anti-intellectual (you find more of the open-mindedness in research scientists like physicists or biologists), and if it's even intentional it'd honestly be more a reflection about how some fields can have a self-sustaining insular effect.

    He said, as an engineer.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1066 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Capt. Beatrix Bandana in the 5th panel
    "Listen, if you turn off the path..."
    If you turn off the path? what? get lost in the mountains? ends up hitting a peek and get the ship whacked?

    I would have turned and looped in the safest valley nearest to the original pass, and fix the ship while taking time in that way.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1066 - The Discussion Thread

    So it looks Like Andi is in some sort of denial about her and Bandana's capabilities vis-a-vis leadership, based on a simple time-served, older=wiser personal bias thing.

    Back in the days of wooden ships and iron men, teenaged boys from comfortable backgrounds who wanted a naval career would have a short time basic training ashore, then be posted to an active ship as Midshipmen. Whilst aboard, they had to carry out duties suitable to their rank of junior-most commissioned officer (which included commanding the enlisted men at simple tasks), as well as receive education in the arts of seamanship, and complete a certain amount of general education (after all, someday they would be real officers and be expected to have a certain level of knowledge about the world). The more comfortable your background, the more education you were expected to have, and the more expensive it was. It's quite probable that Andi's early days on board looked like: Get up before dawn and take astronomical readings, supervise the changing of the watch in a section of engine room, have breakfast, supervise some deckhands doing basic maintenance on the ballistas, have a lesson relating to her onboard job role, lunch, have another lesson relating to another part of her onboard job role, more supervising of deckhands doing basic tasks, have a general education lesson, dinner, stand watch under a more experienced officer, go off duty, bed.

    If this is the case, Andi was probably working in the engine room from day one, and learning about them and how they worked and so on at the same time. She was probably babysitting between coming off evening watch and going to bed. On the one hand it doesn't say a lot about her ability to command (whether through respect of position, through respect of skill and talent, or through fear of physical retribution) that she can't keep an eight year-old reasonably calm, nor her problem-solving skills that she couldn't engage Bandana in making a game of helping her with her trig homework; on the other hand, she's babysitting for (from the name given and what we saw earlier) the second in command, who would probably be one of her teachers in shipboard matters, so she may have been apprehensive of exercising the full authority of her position as babysitter. In any case, it's highly unlikely that Mr & Mrs Secundus came aboard one day and were instantly given high positions in the command structure, so their family are clearly well-established on the Mechane by the time Andi joins, which leads to further implications that Bandana has been working up to command the Mechane for her whole life, meaning Andi is the counter-jumping interloper unjustly leapfrogging up the ladder in comparison. If Bandana only got an official position on the Mechane's crew when she was 12 or 14, she's not been a part of the official crew for as long as Andi.

    In panels 5 and 6, we see Andi trying to cover for the precariousness of her situation. First she infers that she is the captain ("look who's in favour of the captain listening to other opinions"), then immediately accepts Bandana's assertion that she (Andi) is not the captain - she tries to throw doubt on Bandana's claim to the position rather than contradicting Bandana's claim. After that she simply abandons what little raggedy bits of reason and logic she was still clinging to and descends into outright personal attacks based on her historical inability to command, and her somewhat hypocritical sense that because she's older and has been officially on the crew longer, she automatically knows better.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1066 - The Discussion Thread

    Geez, Andi is the worst. What a petty reason for her to endanger the entire crew. Can't wait for her to get her come-uppance.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1066 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Shining Wrath View Post
    Any Andi defenders left?
    Not me. But i never was.
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    Lightbulb Re: OOTS #1066 - The Discussion Thread

    I just thought of something regarding this arc: (Bear in mind that this is just my intepretation; I do not claim to have special insight into the writers mind. All I have is most of the previous books in the printed form, and the writers commentary written in those books.)

    The conflict between Andromeda (Andi) and Beatrix (Bandana) has something in common to the conflict between Durkon and Durkon*(HPoH). Namely, bringing up the past.
    Both Durkon* and Andromeda insist that the opponent in their conflict is no different from what they were once in the past. High Priest of Hel's viewpoint was presented in the strip #1007, and while Andi has continuously insisted that Bandana is "just a kid", her viewpoint is nowhere more prevalent than in this strip.

    "You are who you are on your very worst day". This is what they are trying to say, despite all the time that has passed between that day and the present, during which they have grown older, wiser, and most importantly, BETTER than they were during that day. They are both set up in this story to have their viewpoints contested, and most likely, denied.
    While one of the themes in the previous book (Blood Runs in the Family) was that "What you DO is not separate from what you ARE", this current arc seems to create a message "What you WERE is not always what you ARE".

    While some might be annoyed at the conflict between Andi and Bandana, this strip has given me a new perspective to it; namely, that it is relevant to the themes of this arc. I'm not going to say that they shouldn't be annoyed by this, but I would not say that it is entirely pointless.
    Last edited by Frosthead; 2017-02-21 at 02:16 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1066 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Frosthead View Post
    The conflict between Andromeda (Andi) and Beatrix (Bandana) has something in common to the conflict between Durkon and Durkon*(HPoH). Namely, bringing up the past.
    Both Durkon* and Andromeda insist that the opponent in their conflict is no different from what they were once in the past. High Priest of Hel's viewpoint was presented in the strip #1007, and while Andi has continuously insisted that Bandana is "just a kid", her viewpoint is nowhere more prevalent than in this strip.
    Yes, good point. Nice connection made there
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    Default Re: OOTS #1066 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNecrocomicon View Post
    I see some parallels with Bandana vs. Andi to the lasting conflict between Roy and Eugene. In both cases, we have a character who built their abilities with long study and practice who is contemptuous of someone else who they see as having taken the quick, easy and allegedly illegitimate path.
    Roy has an MBA, you know...

    And I just have no idea where you're getting this stuff. Andi didn't say "I should be in charge because I'm an engineer"--it's been entirely about her age, except when that would put Carol in charge and suddenly it wasn't. Eugene never said that Roy didn't study or practice enough; his contempt for nonwizards is tautological (nonwizards are less than wizards because nonwizards are not wizards).

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNecrocomicon View Post
    Yes, I knew exactly what fight they were referring to. Yes, he uses that INT score to tactical advantage, but STR and CON have always been his primary skills as a fighter -- else he presumably would have been some other class, like the time someone suggested he could have made it as a cleric due to a decent WIS score.
    Yeah, I remember that. He said, "I would have, but my Strength was higher still."

    Oh wait--what he said was completely unrelated to that.

    You're reaching. A lot.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1066 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ariko View Post
    Huh. I always thought Jung was just about as widely known as Freud, by name if nothing else.
    Maybe among people who aim for the top. I actually don't know how obscure Gunbuster is these days, but darn it there's a character named Jung Freud in it!
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    Default Re: OOTS #1066 - The Discussion Thread

    Heh. Beatrix, kiddo.
    Last edited by hroþila; 2017-02-21 at 02:29 PM.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1066 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Snails View Post
    Our culture lacks psychologists with sufficient star power in their name that it could be anything else. The writers are stuck with Freud as the kind of person whom a learned person could gain insights from, even if the idea they want to insert into the conversation would be unrecognizable to Freud.

    If Sweet attributed a quote to, say, Jung or Piaget, 98% of the audience would be baffled.
    They mention Jung in a delightful episode of Northern Exposure.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1066 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Killer Angel View Post
    Not me. But i never was.
    Lew Armistead wouldn't have been an Andi fan, either. I believe he knew something about carrying out orders in the face of daunting opposition.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frosthead View Post
    I just thought of something regarding this arc: (Bear in mind that this is just my intepretation; I do not claim to have special insight into the writers mind. All I have is most of the previous books in the printed form, and the writers commentary written in those books.)

    The conflict between Andromeda (Andi) and Beatrix (Bandana) has something in common to the conflict between Durkon and Durkon*(HPoH). Namely, bringing up the past.
    Both Durkon* and Andromeda insist that the opponent in their conflict is no different from what they were once in the past. High Priest of Hel's viewpoint was presented in the strip #1007, and while Andi has continuously insisted that Bandana is "just a kid", her viewpoint is nowhere more prevalent than in this strip.

    "You are who you are on your very worst day". This is what they are trying to say, despite all the time that has passed between that day and the present, during which they have grown older, wiser, and most importantly, BETTER than they were during that day. They are both set up in this story to have their viewpoints contested, and most likely, denied.
    While one of the themes in the previous book (Blood Runs in the Family) was that "What you DO is not separate from what you ARE", this current arc seems to create a message "What you WERE is not always what you ARE".

    While some might be annoyed at the conflict between Andi and Bandana, this strip has given me a new perspective to it; namely, that it is relevant to the themes of this arc. I'm not going to say that they shouldn't be annoyed by this, but I would not say that it is entirely pointless.
    This is cogent; this arc is at least in part about Durkon and his own need to recognize that he has grown and changed, and Andi's unwillingness to recognize that has happened to Beatrix is as self-serving as the HPoH's denial of Durkon's growth.

    EDIT:

    I believe Freud's last words on his deathbed were "Oh, to be Jung again".
    Last edited by Shining Wrath; 2017-02-21 at 02:42 PM.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1066 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Shining Wrath View Post
    Any Andi defenders left?
    I will happily defend Andi. From evil liches, hobgoblins, frost giants, and a whole host of other nasties. I can't defend her recent actions, or her antagonism to Bandana. I like Andi. She's friendly, good at her job (She's kept the Mechane flying for over a decade), and relatable. If only she could have swallowed her irritation at serving under the kid she babysat, and given her the support she deserves. I hope she can come to her senses before she kills someone with her actions.

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    Duel to the death on a convenient beach somewhere. I vote Maui.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1066 - The Discussion Thread

    lol this is so much like my first management job. The old guy who undermined/backstabbed me was even a former sailor.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1066 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by KrytenKoro View Post
    those with a stubborn "I'm right you're wrong" mindset
    Hmm, sounds a lot like this webcomic forum I tend to frequent, what was its name again ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Frosthead View Post
    The conflict between Andromeda (Andi) and Beatrix (Bandana) has something in common to the conflict between Durkon and Durkon*(HPoH). Namely, bringing up the past.
    Both Durkon* and Andromeda insist that the opponent in their conflict is no different from what they were once in the past. High Priest of Hel's viewpoint was presented in the strip #1007, and while Andi has continuously insisted that Bandana is "just a kid", her viewpoint is nowhere more prevalent than in this strip.

    "You are who you are on your very worst day". This is what they are trying to say, despite all the time that has passed between that day and the present, during which they have grown older, wiser, and most importantly, BETTER than they were during that day. They are both set up in this story to have their viewpoints contested, and most likely, denied.
    While one of the themes in the previous book (Blood Runs in the Family) was that "What you DO is not separate from what you ARE", this current arc seems to create a message "What you WERE is not always what you ARE".
    Fair point. I seriously hope you're right. This certainly makes me feel the current arc is rather stealthily useful from a character perspective, instead of just a lengthy slog of oh-great-what's-going-wrong-now, misery, treachery and misfortune on the way to Firmament.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1066 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Roy may be the intelligent fighter, but he almost never uses his intelligence score in a fight. Outside of his leadership duties, his job in a fight is almost exclusively hitting people or getting hit. In fact, rich specifically wrote that scene in because Roy had a lack of scenes where he used his intelligence in a fight.
    Roy makes smart tactical decisions as a leader (and keeps the group from falling apart), and I would say that's the main way he uses his INT score in a fight. That really came through in the fights against Tarquin. As for the arena fight, he was by himself (but still making tactical decisions for the overarching clash with the LG) and given very sparse equipment, so he was actually in a situation where it was least likely for a Fighter to find a good use for the INT score--this made what he did do with it much more conspicuous.

    As for andi...

    She left her post in the middle of a crisis to go heckle other people who are doing their jobs, then committed mutiny out of petty spite. She is a far worse engineer than she is a leader, because at least as leader she is trying to do the job.

    I don't dislike her so much because she makes engineers look bad, but because she's holding the conflict ball. She's been on this ship for 15 years, she should know better than to harass other people in a crisis. she just doesn't, for this one crisis only, because its needed to move the plot along. She should be doing anything except what she is doing, and that is stretching my suspension of disbelief to the breaking point.
    I agree with most of this, but for me the problem is less about suspension of disbelief and more about effect of this pileup of crises. I don't have that much problem believing Andi's mutiny was possible--a pirate crew with a new captain strikes me as an atmosphere where legitimacy of leadership can be a big issue. Instead, the problem for me is that the conflict seems gratuitous--it's just making the story feel stressful and fragmented. It's like a nesting doll of crises: Xykon's at the gate, but before they can even go deal with that they have to stop Greg, but before they can go deal with that they have to fight off some frost giants, but before they can go deal with that there's a gorram mutiny.

    I'm not arguing that this kind of crisis-pileup is bad storytelling in any objective (or even intersubjective) sense, but I personally find the effect of introducing another conflict at this point starts to make reading it more stressful than exciting.

    All that said, it's only a few strips, and the effect I'm describing probably wouldn't be as noticeable in book format. On the other hand, we also don't know where this conflict is going to lead the story, so who knows what threads will grow out of this one? (Pardon the mixed metaphor)

  26. - Top - End - #116
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    Default Re: OOTS #1066 - The Discussion Thread

    A one-off story about the Mechane might be fun, but right now I can't wait to get back to fighting vampires.
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  27. - Top - End - #117
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    Default Re: OOTS #1066 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by KrytenKoro View Post
    Honestly? Without delving too into politics there's a significant correlation between Engineers/IT and those with a stubborn "I'm right you're wrong" mindset, or outright extremism.
    The CO of my first ship was a chief engineer during his department head tour. He was a great CO with good people skills. On the other hand, there was Admiral Rickover in support of your point ...

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    Default Re: OOTS #1066 - The Discussion Thread

    Nice try Mr. Burlew, sorry but I still prefer her to Bandana.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1066 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Torath View Post
    I will happily defend Andi. From evil liches, hobgoblins, frost giants, and a whole host of other nasties. I can't defend her recent actions, or her antagonism to Bandana. I like Andi. She's friendly, good at her job (She's kept the Mechane flying for over a decade), and relatable. If only she could have swallowed her irritation at serving under the kid she babysat, and given her the support she deserves. I hope she can come to her senses before she kills someone with her actions.

    I believe the next step is a comparison of the relative fighting prowess of Shining Wraith's and Peelee's respective fathers.

    ie. "My dad could beat up your dad."
    My dad fought Golden Gloves in the Navy. Won his first 5 bouts, then ran into the eventual fleet champion and decided his only hope for victory was to damage the guy's knuckles with his face. Third time the guy knocked Dad down he just decided it was better to stay down, it was comfy down there and gloves didn't appear out of nowhere and hurt him.

    Not sure how that compares to Peelee's dad, but I suspect it speaks well of my father's intelligence
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    Default Re: OOTS #1066 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Frosthead View Post
    I just thought of something regarding this arc: (Bear in mind that this is just my intepretation; I do not claim to have special insight into the writers mind. All I have is most of the previous books in the printed form, and the writers commentary written in those books.)

    The conflict between Andromeda (Andi) and Beatrix (Bandana) has something in common to the conflict between Durkon and Durkon*(HPoH). Namely, bringing up the past.
    Both Durkon* and Andromeda insist that the opponent in their conflict is no different from what they were once in the past. High Priest of Hel's viewpoint was presented in the strip #1007, and while Andi has continuously insisted that Bandana is "just a kid", her viewpoint is nowhere more prevalent than in this strip.

    "You are who you are on your very worst day". This is what they are trying to say, despite all the time that has passed between that day and the present, during which they have grown older, wiser, and most importantly, BETTER than they were during that day. They are both set up in this story to have their viewpoints contested, and most likely, denied.
    While one of the themes in the previous book (Blood Runs in the Family) was that "What you DO is not separate from what you ARE", this current arc seems to create a message "What you WERE is not always what you ARE".

    While some might be annoyed at the conflict between Andi and Bandana, this strip has given me a new perspective to it; namely, that it is relevant to the themes of this arc. I'm not going to say that they shouldn't be annoyed by this, but I would not say that it is entirely pointless.
    Oooh, I see! So the main theme of this arc is "change", then? Makes sense in even more ways than you've just given. Roy refused to believe that Durkon had changed, when in reality his friend's corpse had been hijacked by a spirit of pure negative energy. Elan's come far from the klutz he was once, and is now more or less capable of pulling his weight as an adventurer. Belkar's still CE, but he's shown clear signs of change. Stuff like that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    I could write a lengthy explanation, but honestly just what danielxcutter said.
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