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2017-02-21, 01:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2004
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Re: OOTS #1066 - The Discussion Thread
Good analysis. Anyone but the head engineer is someone that Bandanna could have freely slapped down hard, and we all would have wondered who is so important that the captain would tolerate so much lip. As a head engineer who was under enormous pressure, many readers would say a good captain needs to show some leniency to a key crew member under such strain, even if it might be argued that how exactly such leniency was applied was a rookie error.
The Giant wanted a mutiny driven by exactly one individual because it fit the scope of the story arc he wanted to tell here. Head engineer is the obvious choice.
If it had been, say, the ship's cook alone, such would have been ridiculous. If it had been a disgruntled group within the crew, we would have wondered both why Bandanna was so out or touch (and why Haley and/or Elan did not see it coming), and furthermore that would have made for a much longer story arc.I owe Peelee 5 Quatloos. But I am going double or nothing that Durkon will be casting 8th level spells at the big finale.
I bet Goblin_Priest 5 quatloos that Xykon does not know RC has the phylactery at this point in the tale (#1139).
Using my Bardic skills I see the fate of Belkar...so close!
Using my Bardic skills I see the fate of goblinkind!
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2017-02-21, 01:20 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2015
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- Germany
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Re: OOTS #1066 - The Discussion Thread
You know Andi, while Bandana might still be the kid you used to babysit in some respects you are worse.
You still act like the teenager you were back then."If it lives it can be killed.
If it is dead it can be eaten."
Ronkong Coma "the way of the bookhunter" III Catacombium
(Walter Moers "Die Stadt der träumenden Bücher")
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2017-02-21, 01:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2004
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Re: OOTS #1066 - The Discussion Thread
Our culture lacks psychologists with sufficient star power in their name that it could be anything else. The writers are stuck with Freud as the kind of person whom a learned person could gain insights from, even if the idea they want to insert into the conversation would be unrecognizable to Freud.
If Sweet attributed a quote to, say, Jung or Piaget, 98% of the audience would be baffled.I owe Peelee 5 Quatloos. But I am going double or nothing that Durkon will be casting 8th level spells at the big finale.
I bet Goblin_Priest 5 quatloos that Xykon does not know RC has the phylactery at this point in the tale (#1139).
Using my Bardic skills I see the fate of Belkar...so close!
Using my Bardic skills I see the fate of goblinkind!
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2017-02-21, 01:30 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2007
- Gender
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2017-02-21, 01:31 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2004
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Re: OOTS #1066 - The Discussion Thread
Indeed. At the detailed level, approximately everything Freud ever asserted was wrong.
At the bigger picture level, some of his insights were powerful, worthy of building an entire field of study upon. I would credit Freud with two huge insights: (1) We humans are often irrational in patterns that are understandable (and cannot simply be cured by applying a religious sermon). (2) Children are not dumb little adults who need sufficient information poured into them, but go through stages of development.I owe Peelee 5 Quatloos. But I am going double or nothing that Durkon will be casting 8th level spells at the big finale.
I bet Goblin_Priest 5 quatloos that Xykon does not know RC has the phylactery at this point in the tale (#1139).
Using my Bardic skills I see the fate of Belkar...so close!
Using my Bardic skills I see the fate of goblinkind!
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2017-02-21, 01:31 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2006
- Location
- Raleigh NC
- Gender
Re: OOTS #1066 - The Discussion Thread
*Sigh* Not an especially funny strip, but yes it does work that way. People who knew you as a kid hardly ever get that mental image out of their minds.
I know I have a female family member who has this same problem with her parents, despite the fact that the "child" is well into her fifties at this point.
Respectfully,
Brian P."Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid."
-Valery Legasov in Chernobyl
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2017-02-21, 01:34 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2004
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Re: OOTS #1066 - The Discussion Thread
I owe Peelee 5 Quatloos. But I am going double or nothing that Durkon will be casting 8th level spells at the big finale.
I bet Goblin_Priest 5 quatloos that Xykon does not know RC has the phylactery at this point in the tale (#1139).
Using my Bardic skills I see the fate of Belkar...so close!
Using my Bardic skills I see the fate of goblinkind!
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2017-02-21, 01:36 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2009
- Location
- Mobile, AL
- Gender
Re: OOTS #1066 - The Discussion Thread
One of the primary duties of a captain is to chart a course. This means that they spend a lot of time looking at maps. Chances are good that if this area is well mapped, any side passes will be marked as dead ends. Bandana would have studied the charts and was probably trying to make that point in panel 5 before she was interrupted.
Andi's move may have put the Mechane on a course to something worse than Frost Giants.FTDWIR
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2017-02-21, 01:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2012
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- Colorado
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Re: OOTS #1066 - The Discussion Thread
Right here, panel #3.
... all the best paths through the peaks have been charted.This ... is my signature finishing move!
"It's never good when you make a fiend cringe" - MadGrady
According to some online quiz, I'm a 6th level TN Wizard. They didn't give me full XP for all the monsters I've defeated while daydreaming.
http://easydamus.com/character.html
I am a Ranger Archetype: Gleaming Warden (thx to Ninja Prawn)
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2017-02-21, 01:47 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2012
Re: OOTS #1066 - The Discussion Thread
Honestly? Without delving too into politics there's a significant correlation between Engineers/IT and those with a stubborn "I'm right you're wrong" mindset, or outright extremism. It's a field that lets you be very competent at one skill while not requiring you to be well-rounded or cosmopolitan, so it's inviting to authoritarian types. Somewhat similar effect for doctors.
It's not anti-intellectual (you find more of the open-mindedness in research scientists like physicists or biologists), and if it's even intentional it'd honestly be more a reflection about how some fields can have a self-sustaining insular effect.
He said, as an engineer.
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2017-02-21, 02:05 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2014
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- Italy
Re: OOTS #1066 - The Discussion Thread
Originally Posted by Capt. Beatrix Bandana in the 5th panel
I would have turned and looped in the safest valley nearest to the original pass, and fix the ship while taking time in that way.
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2017-02-21, 02:06 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2009
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- Yorkshire
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Re: OOTS #1066 - The Discussion Thread
So it looks Like Andi is in some sort of denial about her and Bandana's capabilities vis-a-vis leadership, based on a simple time-served, older=wiser personal bias thing.
Back in the days of wooden ships and iron men, teenaged boys from comfortable backgrounds who wanted a naval career would have a short time basic training ashore, then be posted to an active ship as Midshipmen. Whilst aboard, they had to carry out duties suitable to their rank of junior-most commissioned officer (which included commanding the enlisted men at simple tasks), as well as receive education in the arts of seamanship, and complete a certain amount of general education (after all, someday they would be real officers and be expected to have a certain level of knowledge about the world). The more comfortable your background, the more education you were expected to have, and the more expensive it was. It's quite probable that Andi's early days on board looked like: Get up before dawn and take astronomical readings, supervise the changing of the watch in a section of engine room, have breakfast, supervise some deckhands doing basic maintenance on the ballistas, have a lesson relating to her onboard job role, lunch, have another lesson relating to another part of her onboard job role, more supervising of deckhands doing basic tasks, have a general education lesson, dinner, stand watch under a more experienced officer, go off duty, bed.
If this is the case, Andi was probably working in the engine room from day one, and learning about them and how they worked and so on at the same time. She was probably babysitting between coming off evening watch and going to bed. On the one hand it doesn't say a lot about her ability to command (whether through respect of position, through respect of skill and talent, or through fear of physical retribution) that she can't keep an eight year-old reasonably calm, nor her problem-solving skills that she couldn't engage Bandana in making a game of helping her with her trig homework; on the other hand, she's babysitting for (from the name given and what we saw earlier) the second in command, who would probably be one of her teachers in shipboard matters, so she may have been apprehensive of exercising the full authority of her position as babysitter. In any case, it's highly unlikely that Mr & Mrs Secundus came aboard one day and were instantly given high positions in the command structure, so their family are clearly well-established on the Mechane by the time Andi joins, which leads to further implications that Bandana has been working up to command the Mechane for her whole life, meaning Andi is the counter-jumping interloper unjustly leapfrogging up the ladder in comparison. If Bandana only got an official position on the Mechane's crew when she was 12 or 14, she's not been a part of the official crew for as long as Andi.
In panels 5 and 6, we see Andi trying to cover for the precariousness of her situation. First she infers that she is the captain ("look who's in favour of the captain listening to other opinions"), then immediately accepts Bandana's assertion that she (Andi) is not the captain - she tries to throw doubt on Bandana's claim to the position rather than contradicting Bandana's claim. After that she simply abandons what little raggedy bits of reason and logic she was still clinging to and descends into outright personal attacks based on her historical inability to command, and her somewhat hypocritical sense that because she's older and has been officially on the crew longer, she automatically knows better.My books - Have Sword & Sorcery: Will Travel™ (available to buy at all good online bookshops)
Literary threat #19:
They say the pen is mightier than the sword - and I'm pretty handy with both, you know...
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2017-02-21, 02:08 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2009
- Location
- Gotham City
Re: OOTS #1066 - The Discussion Thread
Geez, Andi is the worst. What a petty reason for her to endanger the entire crew. Can't wait for her to get her come-uppance.
"And yet, will we ever come to an end of discussion and talk if we think we must always reply to replies? For replies come from those who either cannot understand what is said to them, or are so stubborn and contentious that they refuse to give in even if they do understand." - St. Augustine
The Index of the Giant's Comments | Thanks, Bradakhan, for the avatar!
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2017-02-21, 02:09 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2009
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- Lustria
- Gender
Do I contradict myself?
Very well then I contradict myself. I am large, I contain multitudes. (W.Whitman)
Things that increase my self esteem:
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2017-02-21, 02:13 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2015
Re: OOTS #1066 - The Discussion Thread
I just thought of something regarding this arc: (Bear in mind that this is just my intepretation; I do not claim to have special insight into the writers mind. All I have is most of the previous books in the printed form, and the writers commentary written in those books.)
The conflict between Andromeda (Andi) and Beatrix (Bandana) has something in common to the conflict between Durkon and Durkon*(HPoH). Namely, bringing up the past.
Both Durkon* and Andromeda insist that the opponent in their conflict is no different from what they were once in the past. High Priest of Hel's viewpoint was presented in the strip #1007, and while Andi has continuously insisted that Bandana is "just a kid", her viewpoint is nowhere more prevalent than in this strip.
"You are who you are on your very worst day". This is what they are trying to say, despite all the time that has passed between that day and the present, during which they have grown older, wiser, and most importantly, BETTER than they were during that day. They are both set up in this story to have their viewpoints contested, and most likely, denied.
While one of the themes in the previous book (Blood Runs in the Family) was that "What you DO is not separate from what you ARE", this current arc seems to create a message "What you WERE is not always what you ARE".
While some might be annoyed at the conflict between Andi and Bandana, this strip has given me a new perspective to it; namely, that it is relevant to the themes of this arc. I'm not going to say that they shouldn't be annoyed by this, but I would not say that it is entirely pointless.Last edited by Frosthead; 2017-02-21 at 02:16 PM.
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2017-02-21, 02:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2009
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- Yorkshire
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Re: OOTS #1066 - The Discussion Thread
My books - Have Sword & Sorcery: Will Travel™ (available to buy at all good online bookshops)
Literary threat #19:
They say the pen is mightier than the sword - and I'm pretty handy with both, you know...
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2017-02-21, 02:24 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2004
Re: OOTS #1066 - The Discussion Thread
Roy has an MBA, you know...
And I just have no idea where you're getting this stuff. Andi didn't say "I should be in charge because I'm an engineer"--it's been entirely about her age, except when that would put Carol in charge and suddenly it wasn't. Eugene never said that Roy didn't study or practice enough; his contempt for nonwizards is tautological (nonwizards are less than wizards because nonwizards are not wizards).
Yeah, I remember that. He said, "I would have, but my Strength was higher still."
Oh wait--what he said was completely unrelated to that.
You're reaching. A lot.Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2017-02-21, 02:27 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2007
- Location
- Oregon, USA
Re: OOTS #1066 - The Discussion Thread
FeytouchedBanana eldritch disciple avatar by...me!
The Index of the Giant's Comments VI―Making Dogma from Zapped Bananas
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2017-02-21, 02:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2015
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Re: OOTS #1066 - The Discussion Thread
Heh. Beatrix, kiddo.
Last edited by hroþila; 2017-02-21 at 02:29 PM.
ungelic is us
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2017-02-21, 02:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2013
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- Vancouver, BC
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Re: OOTS #1066 - The Discussion Thread
They mention Jung in a delightful episode of Northern Exposure.
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2017-02-21, 02:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2012
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- Colorado
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Re: OOTS #1066 - The Discussion Thread
Lew Armistead wouldn't have been an Andi fan, either. I believe he knew something about carrying out orders in the face of daunting opposition.
This is cogent; this arc is at least in part about Durkon and his own need to recognize that he has grown and changed, and Andi's unwillingness to recognize that has happened to Beatrix is as self-serving as the HPoH's denial of Durkon's growth.
EDIT:
I believe Freud's last words on his deathbed were "Oh, to be Jung again".Last edited by Shining Wrath; 2017-02-21 at 02:42 PM.
This ... is my signature finishing move!
"It's never good when you make a fiend cringe" - MadGrady
According to some online quiz, I'm a 6th level TN Wizard. They didn't give me full XP for all the monsters I've defeated while daydreaming.
http://easydamus.com/character.html
I am a Ranger Archetype: Gleaming Warden (thx to Ninja Prawn)
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2017-02-21, 02:59 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2011
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- Sharangar's Revenge
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Re: OOTS #1066 - The Discussion Thread
I will happily defend Andi. From evil liches, hobgoblins, frost giants, and a whole host of other nasties. I can't defend her recent actions, or her antagonism to Bandana. I like Andi. She's friendly, good at her job (She's kept the Mechane flying for over a decade), and relatable. If only she could have swallowed her irritation at serving under the kid she babysat, and given her the support she deserves. I hope she can come to her senses before she kills someone with her actions.
I believe the next step is a comparison of the relative fighting prowess of Shining Wraith's and Peelee's respective fathers.
ie. "My dad could beat up your dad."Warhammer 40,000 Campaign Skirmish Game: Warpstrike
My Spelljammer stuff (including an orbit tracker), 2E AD&D spreadsheet, and Vault of the Drow maps are available in my Dropbox. Feel free to use or not use it as you see fit!
Thri-Kreen Ranger/Psionicist by me, based off of Rich's A Monster for Every Season
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2017-02-21, 03:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2007
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Re: OOTS #1066 - The Discussion Thread
lol this is so much like my first management job. The old guy who undermined/backstabbed me was even a former sailor.
"For you see, I theorize that the halfling does not possess a true sentient brain, like you or I, but rather a simple lump of nerve tissue that serves as a primitive "proto-brain" that can only process two emotional reactions to people: Hate or Lust."
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2017-02-21, 03:04 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2016
Re: OOTS #1066 - The Discussion Thread
Hmm, sounds a lot like this webcomic forum I tend to frequent, what was its name again ...
Fair point. I seriously hope you're right. This certainly makes me feel the current arc is rather stealthily useful from a character perspective, instead of just a lengthy slog of oh-great-what's-going-wrong-now, misery, treachery and misfortune on the way to Firmament.I prepared Explosive Runes before writing this signature.
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2017-02-21, 03:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2013
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- Vancouver, BC
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Re: OOTS #1066 - The Discussion Thread
Roy makes smart tactical decisions as a leader (and keeps the group from falling apart), and I would say that's the main way he uses his INT score in a fight. That really came through in the fights against Tarquin. As for the arena fight, he was by himself (but still making tactical decisions for the overarching clash with the LG) and given very sparse equipment, so he was actually in a situation where it was least likely for a Fighter to find a good use for the INT score--this made what he did do with it much more conspicuous.
As for andi...
She left her post in the middle of a crisis to go heckle other people who are doing their jobs, then committed mutiny out of petty spite. She is a far worse engineer than she is a leader, because at least as leader she is trying to do the job.
I don't dislike her so much because she makes engineers look bad, but because she's holding the conflict ball. She's been on this ship for 15 years, she should know better than to harass other people in a crisis. she just doesn't, for this one crisis only, because its needed to move the plot along. She should be doing anything except what she is doing, and that is stretching my suspension of disbelief to the breaking point.
I'm not arguing that this kind of crisis-pileup is bad storytelling in any objective (or even intersubjective) sense, but I personally find the effect of introducing another conflict at this point starts to make reading it more stressful than exciting.
All that said, it's only a few strips, and the effect I'm describing probably wouldn't be as noticeable in book format. On the other hand, we also don't know where this conflict is going to lead the story, so who knows what threads will grow out of this one? (Pardon the mixed metaphor)
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2017-02-21, 03:08 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2008
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- Large Midwestern City
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Re: OOTS #1066 - The Discussion Thread
A one-off story about the Mechane might be fun, but right now I can't wait to get back to fighting vampires.
!
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2017-02-21, 03:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2015
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- Texas
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Re: OOTS #1066 - The Discussion Thread
The CO of my first ship was a chief engineer during his department head tour. He was a great CO with good people skills. On the other hand, there was Admiral Rickover in support of your point ...
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2017-02-21, 03:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2010
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- Turkey
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Re: OOTS #1066 - The Discussion Thread
Nice try Mr. Burlew, sorry but I still prefer her to Bandana.
Spoiler
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2017-02-21, 03:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2012
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- Colorado
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Re: OOTS #1066 - The Discussion Thread
My dad fought Golden Gloves in the Navy. Won his first 5 bouts, then ran into the eventual fleet champion and decided his only hope for victory was to damage the guy's knuckles with his face. Third time the guy knocked Dad down he just decided it was better to stay down, it was comfy down there and gloves didn't appear out of nowhere and hurt him.
Not sure how that compares to Peelee's dad, but I suspect it speaks well of my father's intelligenceThis ... is my signature finishing move!
"It's never good when you make a fiend cringe" - MadGrady
According to some online quiz, I'm a 6th level TN Wizard. They didn't give me full XP for all the monsters I've defeated while daydreaming.
http://easydamus.com/character.html
I am a Ranger Archetype: Gleaming Warden (thx to Ninja Prawn)
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2017-02-21, 03:40 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2016
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- Seoul
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Re: OOTS #1066 - The Discussion Thread
Oooh, I see! So the main theme of this arc is "change", then? Makes sense in even more ways than you've just given. Roy refused to believe that Durkon had changed, when in reality his friend's corpse had been hijacked by a spirit of pure negative energy. Elan's come far from the klutz he was once, and is now more or less capable of pulling his weight as an adventurer. Belkar's still CE, but he's shown clear signs of change. Stuff like that.
Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
Editor/co-writer of Magicae Est Potestas, a crossover between Artemis Fowl and Undertale. Ao3 FanFiction.net DeviantArt
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