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  1. - Top - End - #181
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    Default Re: OOTS #1066 - The Discussion Thread

    I hope Bandana manages to rally the crew to her side. Especially since she actually appears to know what she's doing despite now being tied up. Andi just seems dumb at this point, but we'll have to see.
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    Anarion's right on the money here.
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  2. - Top - End - #182
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    Default Re: OOTS #1066 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Anarion View Post
    I hope Bandana manages to rally the crew to her side. Especially since she actually appears to know what she's doing despite now being tied up. Andi just seems dumb at this point, but we'll have to see.
    The rest of the crew does seem to be relatively content for the moment with Andi being in charge, but maybe that's because they're light-years more professional than she is in a crisis situation.

    As soon as the threat lightens or Andi's stupidity gets them in deeper or inescapable trouble, I would imagine there will be some sort of crew conference over the issue (peaceful or otherwise).
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  3. - Top - End - #183
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    Default Re: OOTS #1066 - The Discussion Thread

    Good grief, Andi.
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    There is nothing more emblematic of this forum than three or four pages of debate between people who, as it turns out, pretty much agree with each other.


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  4. - Top - End - #184
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    Default Re: OOTS #1066 - The Discussion Thread

    Is there another chance for another long, Naruto-esque flashback arc? If not, I am more than okay and actually happy about that.

    But anyways, now I finally know the relative age difference of Andi and Bandanna. OotS art style makes that hard.
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  5. - Top - End - #185
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    Default Re: OOTS #1066 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNecrocomicon View Post
    It's another thing entirely for the author to be pulling this "have I mentioned Andi is an engineer" routine lately, right down to Andi spouting trite crap about percussive maintenance and being a stereotypical nerd in her youth. It comes across less as "Andi just so happens to be an engineer" and more like some sort of preachy message that engineers habitually suck at leadership due to crappy social skills and people-management.
    Just out of curiosity, how does your analysis jibe with Redcloak being both a giant nerd and a competent leader?

  6. - Top - End - #186
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    Default Re: OOTS #1066 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by FlawedParadigm View Post
    I can only guess Rich was nostalgic for the good ol' days of Miko threads and decided to write Andi to carry on her battles against sense.
    Not to mention how every "current comic" thread since the mutiny happened has been an extended debate on "was Andi morally justified in mutinying against Bandana?"


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  7. - Top - End - #187
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    Default Re: OOTS #1066 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Unoriginal View Post
    What's funny/ironic about this saying is that several records saying that Nero went back to Rome (he wasn't actually there when the fire started), opened his palace for the fire survivors, and then took measures to lower the prices of food and stuff to make the situation more economically viable for those who escaped the disaster.
    That's not really funny or ironic, because there are also several records that say that Nero sent out men who STARTED the fire, and then played an instrument while he watched it burn.

    And even if he didn't, it is universally agreed that it took him quite a while to actually start his efforts to control the fire - which is why it burned for 6 days. So the saying still holds up. If he had actually been present and effective then the fire probably wouldn't have burned for six days.
    Last edited by Olinser; 2017-02-21 at 07:22 PM.

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  8. - Top - End - #188
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    Default Re: OOTS #1066 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Olinser View Post
    That's not really funny or ironic, because there are also several records that say that Nero sent out men who STARTED the fire, and then played an instrument while he watched it burn.
    Later records, from people who weren't here. But it's true to argue which Roman chronicles are more biased is an exercise in futility.

    Quote Originally Posted by Olinser View Post
    And even if he didn't, it is universally agreed that it took him quite a while to actually start his efforts to control the fire - which is why it burned for 6 days. So the saying still holds up. If he had actually been present and effective then the fire probably wouldn't have burned for six days.
    That's baseless speculations. The Emperor doesn't control fire, he didn't have to be in Rome at the time, and it's not like he was diddling around after being reported Rome was burning. He still showed up the morning of the night the fire started, with food and help.

    But anyway.
    Last edited by Unoriginal; 2017-02-21 at 07:33 PM.

  9. - Top - End - #189
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    Default Re: OOTS #1066 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNecrocomicon View Post
    But now the author is deliberately using trite BS about "fixing problems by hitting them with a wrench" for Andi to taunt and gloat to Bandana or "gotta go do my trigonometry homework" in the source of Andi's resentment and entitlement.
    Trigonometry, the study of triangles, is probably part of the required training to be an engineer on an airship. After all, with the way it's built, there are at least two sets of non-perpendicular forces acting on each point. For instance, the gas bag has load on the bits where it supports the hull, it also has load coming from head on and the sides when in flight (particularly when turning), and it has load at the rear where the fins and their control linkages are. Depending on the rigidity of the envelope and whatever connects the gas bag to the hull, if you make a mistake in working out what sort/how strong/which direction the stresses are at each point of load, the gas bag and the hull could part company.

    Trigonometry is also certainly a requirement for navigation. Maybe Andi wanted to take a different career path than engineer, but couldn't handle the abstract calculations required?

    So, no, there is no reason to see Andi trying to do her trig homework while babysitting as being a nerd, as an indicator of the stereotypical lack-of-social-skills-but-academically-gifted engineer. Andi trying to do her trig homework while babysitting is simply an indicator that she's trying to get to grips with the required material to do a job on an airship.
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  10. - Top - End - #190
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    Default Re: OOTS #1066 - The Discussion Thread

    I really don't like to criticize Rich, because this is his story and not mine, but seriously? This is just an excuse for Bandana to be as crappy a leader as she's always been. It feels like an excuse to delegitimize Andi by giving her a crappy reason to do what she did, and present Bandana as superior merely because Andi is so wrong.

    Honestly, I feel like Rich is playing favorites with Bandana, excusing her actions because he likes her and making sure everyone opposing her has a stupid reason for doing so. I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think that I am reading this strip.

  11. - Top - End - #191
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    Default Re: OOTS #1066 - The Discussion Thread

    Yes, that Rich, ridiculously thinking that Bandana and Andi are characters he made up and controls entirely, such that if he writes a conflict in such a way that Bandana is clearly in the right and Andi is clearly in the wrong, it means Bandana is clearly in the right and Andi is clearly in the wrong, instead of being vile slander of the innocent Andi.

  12. - Top - End - #192
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    Default Re: OOTS #1066 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Shining Wrath View Post

    Any Andi defenders left?
    Defending the situation where she called out miss Leeroy Jenkins for going head on in an ambush at walking speed?
    Sure, I did that, but I explained my point over and over on that issue, so I'm not going to beat a dead horse again. Still I keep my point on that, but I do that internally.

    Defending a character from the author's will to show the aforementioned character annoying, immature, etc, to "prove" that her whole tactical point was wrong as well?
    I don't think it's the case, really.
    It reminds me of a point regarding Miko I discussed recently, so... meh, been there, done that: I'll pass.

    Edit: Ah, I was beaten on the point by Matt620, just a couple of posts above mine. Agreeing with him, more or less.
    Last edited by Dr.Zero; 2017-02-21 at 09:01 PM.

  13. - Top - End - #193
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    Default Re: OOTS #1066 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Zero View Post
    Defending the situation where she called out miss Leeroy Jenkins for going head on in an ambush at walking speed?
    I mean, if you gave an alternative that wasn't almost certainly going to result in them getting lost in the mountains, stalled while under fire, taken down by the giants they passed earlier (as opposed to the ones Haley, V and Belkar are successfully dealing with), crashed into a mountain or some combination of the above, I must have missed it, and would appreciate having it repeated.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  14. - Top - End - #194
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    Default Re: OOTS #1066 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    I mean, if you gave an alternative that wasn't almost certainly going to result in them getting lost in the mountains, stalled while under fire, taken down by the giants they passed earlier (as opposed to the ones Haley, V and Belkar are successfully dealing with), crashed into a mountain or some combination of the above, I must have missed it, and would appreciate having it repeated.
    Or possibly refuse to carry the team trying to save the world from getting destroyed by the gods. Or possibly that Bandana should've predicted the future and avoided all danger, somehow.

    Also, I'm sure "Leeroy Jenkins" & "walking pace" is a contradiction, verging on an oxymoron.

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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  15. - Top - End - #195
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    Default Re: OOTS #1066 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Or possibly refuse to carry the team trying to save the world from getting destroyed by the gods. Or possibly that Bandana should've predicted the future and avoided all danger, somehow.

    Also, I'm sure "Leeroy Jenkins" & "walking pace" is a contradiction, verging on an oxymoron.

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  16. - Top - End - #196
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    Default Re: OOTS #1066 - The Discussion Thread

    Yeah, it looks like trying to make two contradictory complaints at once: that Bandana's "advance forward at a speed that lets you avoid the mountains" plan, which was working where Andi's brilliant "let's go into this random dead end" plan is not, was wrong to be advancing and wrong not to be going at full speed. Giants, mountains, and the end of the world all being unimportant, except insofar as the first of the three demonstrate the necessity of obedience to Andi in all things.

  17. - Top - End - #197
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    Default Re: OOTS #1066 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    I figured that went without saying.
    You'd think so, but we are dealing with readers who, when presented with the evidence in the comic, still conclude that Andi is in the right. Not sure we can take anything for granted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  18. - Top - End - #198
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    Default Re: OOTS #1066 - The Discussion Thread

    After all this time I keep seeing this. I am starting to wonder if I should add Andi to my signature.

    As for my standing on this whole Andi-Bandanna situation, regardless of whether her actions are justifiable, I just hope that Andi is ready to take responsibility for her actions.

    So far, the ship has suffered damage while under her command.

    The Order has been put in a tough spot since the ship, whose services they are paying for and protecting, isn't following their best interest anymore.

    And she has alienated the crew.

    I hope that she is ready to take responsibility since the moment she started her mutiny up until now, she has been in charge.
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    On a long enough scale, every OOTS forum discussion turns into a debate about alignment, Miko, or Familicide.
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  19. - Top - End - #199
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    Default Re: OOTS #1066 - The Discussion Thread

    I'd say she manifestly isn't. She's pausing in the middle of the crisis to taunt the captain she mutineed against and reassert her rightness, now with extra-lampshaded self-serving illogic.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1066 - The Discussion Thread

    We even have Bandana calling her out on the "just a kid" thing Andi was whining about not two minutes ago, and Andi denying it. No, it's all down to "Bandana's wrong because she's Bandana".

    This situation is going to get worse before it gets better, because we haven't seen the full extent of how disastrously wrong Andi is.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1066 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt620 View Post
    I really don't like to criticize Rich, because this is his story and not mine, but seriously? This is just an excuse for Bandana to be as crappy a leader as she's always been. It feels like an excuse to delegitimize Andi by giving her a crappy reason to do what she did, and present Bandana as superior merely because Andi is so wrong.

    Honestly, I feel like Rich is playing favorites with Bandana, excusing her actions because he likes her and making sure everyone opposing her has a stupid reason for doing so. I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think that I am reading this strip.
    "everyone opposing her has a stupid reason for doing so" = only Andi

    Andi is a character whose personal flaws were highlighted multiple times, even if we lacked the information at the time to fully understand them.

    Regardless of whether you or I personally think this is the best written sequence, your complaint makes no sense. The Giant basically telegraphed where this was going. It is perfectly logical and reasonable and justified for him to follow through. That is not making excuses. That is the opposite of making excuses. That is being as forthright as an author is this genre could reasonably be.

    Perhaps you think that Andi is flawed in an unnecessarily simplistic way. I get that. But that basically means that Andi is a character that you do not care for, as the Giant strongly hinted to you multiple times.

    Some characters we dislike in a satisfying way. Some characters we dislike in a dissatisfying way. There is not a universally correct way to write characters that are destined to be disliked, to satisfy all readers.

  22. - Top - End - #202
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    Default Re: OOTS #1066 - The Discussion Thread

    Technically, the frost giants are also opposing Bandana. I suppose whether their reason for doing so is stupid depends on one's opinion of "our god literally told us to," which might get a different answer depending on whether the instruction came with or without "...so the world will end!" which is information we do not have.

  23. - Top - End - #203
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    Default Re: OOTS #1066 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by theNater View Post
    Just out of curiosity, how does your analysis jibe with Redcloak being both a giant nerd and a competent leader?
    He's still evil and trying to dominate the world in the name of an evil-aligned deity. And he constantly gets put down by Xykon, most recently and most pointedly in the arc at the North Pole, you know, "Logic is overrated gibberish", mocking Redcloak as being beholden to math textbooks, "That's why you're a nerd that nobody likes," etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by sabremeister View Post
    (snip)

    So, no, there is no reason to see Andi trying to do her trig homework while babysitting as being a nerd, as an indicator of the stereotypical lack-of-social-skills-but-academically-gifted engineer. Andi trying to do her trig homework while babysitting is simply an indicator that she's trying to get to grips with the required material to do a job on an airship.
    Sure, if you want to take that scene in the most absolutely, mind-numbingly literal manner possible. Really, it could have just as easily been any STEM field/topic. The point the author was making with the flashback is that Andi thought it was more important to do [insert random complex school subject here] rather than bother trying to properly supervise or bond with Bandana, and by extension to the present-day situation conveying the message that her "book smarts" are worthless in a leadership position because she doesn't know how to handle people and stressful situations.

    That may be a worthwhile message to some, but I find that frustrating (as an engineer myself) because it's been done to the point of utter cliché in other media, and it perpetuates the stereotype that people who are dedicated to scientific or technological pursuits are supposedly always weak in social and/or management skills. That said, enough people have explained upthread that it's really just a one-off in the greater context of the storyline that I'm willing to let it slide (assuming it doesn't develop into an anvil that continues getting bashed on our heads).
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    Default Re: OOTS #1066 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    I'd say she manifestly isn't. She's pausing in the middle of the crisis to taunt the captain she mutineed against and reassert her rightness, now with extra-lampshaded self-serving illogic.
    Yep. I agree. She isn't. That is why I said I hoped.

    Since the Giant likes to make characters receive appropriate due for their actions, and considering what has happened under her leadership..... well, I just don't think it will end well for her.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jidasfire View Post
    On a long enough scale, every OOTS forum discussion turns into a debate about alignment, Miko, or Familicide.
    or Star Wars.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1066 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Unoriginal View Post
    Is that a Savate competition?
    No. Golden Gloves is boxing, generally at an amateur or semi-pro level.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shining Wrath View Post
    Han Solo voice I have a bad feeling about this ....

    "This" being:
    1. Bandana's comment about what to do if they have turned off the pass being lost in quibbling, and
    2. The fact that Andi is still not paying attention to repairing the ship, which is showing visible cracks on the inside, and
    3. The fact that Andi is also not paying attention to where the ship is going since the helm is not yelling at her right now, and
    4. The fact that no one is organizing any help for Roy, who is outnumbered


    The number of things that can go wrong while senior management squabbles is large.
    But at least the ship's not juking about, so hopefully Elan's taken care of the Mending by now.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1066 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mightymosy View Post

    Bottom line: It's a comic. A parody. Maybe we should all step back a little and try not being insulted, whether we are engineers, transgenders, sluts, STEM people, stupid people or anything else the comic occasionally (supposedly) makes fun of? Laughing about oneself is a huge step in character, I have found.
    Slut shaming and transphobic jokes have a very different connotation than jokes about certain careers, so how about you don't ****ing conflate them. And don't refer to trans people as "transgenders."
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    Also, as a rule of thumb, if you find yourself defending your inalienable right to make someone else feel like garbage, you're on the wrong side of the argument.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1066 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by DaOldeWolf View Post
    Since the Giant likes to make characters receive appropriate due for their actions, and considering what has happened under her leadership..... well, I just don't think it will end well for her.
    And I hope it doesn't. By contrast, frost giants, vampires working for Hel, callous jerks like Belkar, even Redcloak and Xykon -- these I can stomach, since they are, in the end, more or less upfront about their intentions and consistent in pursuing their goals. It's the flaky self-centred and self-interested types, who can turn traitor in an instant and wrench you over the head when their ego gets ever so slightly nudged, that I cannot and will not tolerate.

    I mean with "allies" like Andi, who needs enemies like the frost giants? At this point her stupidity may well get the ship crashed and wrecked with no further involvement from the outside. At the very least, I hope Andi gets some moment where she truly comprehends the magnitude of her stupidity and wrongdoing before she encounters whatever fate (death, imprisonment, marooning, etc.) is in store after all the traitorous malfeasance.
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  28. - Top - End - #208
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    Default Re: OOTS #1066 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    Technically, the frost giants are also opposing Bandana. I suppose whether their reason for doing so is stupid depends on one's opinion of "our god literally told us to," which might get a different answer depending on whether the instruction came with or without "...so the world will end!" which is information we do not have.
    I personally assume Thrym left off "...so the world will end!" because I see no upside for Thrym to being open and his one appearance shows him not giving any reason even when everyone else is presenting their reasons so we've no reason to assume he's talkative.

    That said, I don't think it matters, the giants have a justification, which is why Rich doesn't need to spend any time on it. Their actions are entirely understandable. Their motivation will get screen time only if something happens to change it. But given the existence of both an afterlife and of gods who'll make a new world if this one ends, "...so the world will end!" is not necessarily a reason not to act as your god wants you to (see also Redcloak for an example of such a character). So if Rich tells us tomorrow that Thrym did tell his giants that he's trying to end the world, I'll be mildly surprised by that, and I'll see no reason at all why this should be taken as an argument that the giants don't have a perfectly good reason for what they're doing.

    Andi remains the only one irrationally opposed to Bandana.

  29. - Top - End - #209
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    Default Re: OOTS #1066 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Lampert View Post
    But given the existence of both an afterlife and of gods who'll make a new world if this one ends, "...so the world will end!" is not necessarily a reason not to act as your god wants you to
    Excellent point. Heck, for a significant portion of the giants, the world did just end. Presumably, if your god tells you "the end is nigh if these guys don't make it to their destination, but if you help make it happen, you get a pass into heaven", you'd be happy to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  30. - Top - End - #210
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    Default Re: OOTS #1066 - The Discussion Thread

    Whoo boy, still some holdouts. Damn, I am flabbergasted. Glad the popcorn didn't go to waste. And now there's a separate thread to argue this more? I'm there. *grabs more popcorn*

    That kinda seems like I'm just enjoying the chaos and don't have a side but I'd just like to clarify, I'm of the opinion that Andi is thoroughly in the wrong here. Granted, I'd very slightly give that there might be room for improvement with Bandana and that she could have done better (but honestly, I think having one fall through the cracks is extremely flimsy an argument towards her "incompetence", especially if the one that did was already opposed to her being in command in the first place), but that would constitute to a flawless character, perhaps even reaching Mary Sue levels. Bandana has done right in being acting captain and following the orders issued by the legitimate captain, in his absence, to the best of her ability. I'm just submitted to the fact that there would be some that, beyond overwhelming evidence to the contrary, would argue that their side is correct, even if the evidence they present is lackluster at best or far reaching assumptions at worst (or at even worse times, not even submitting any evidence at all).

    Quote Originally Posted by Frosthead View Post
    I just thought of something regarding this arc: (Bear in mind that this is just my intepretation; I do not claim to have special insight into the writers mind. All I have is most of the previous books in the printed form, and the writers commentary written in those books.)

    The conflict between Andromeda (Andi) and Beatrix (Bandana) has something in common to the conflict between Durkon and Durkon*(HPoH). Namely, bringing up the past.
    Both Durkon* and Andromeda insist that the opponent in their conflict is no different from what they were once in the past. High Priest of Hel's viewpoint was presented in the strip #1007, and while Andi has continuously insisted that Bandana is "just a kid", her viewpoint is nowhere more prevalent than in this strip.

    "You are who you are on your very worst day". This is what they are trying to say, despite all the time that has passed between that day and the present, during which they have grown older, wiser, and most importantly, BETTER than they were during that day. They are both set up in this story to have their viewpoints contested, and most likely, denied.
    While one of the themes in the previous book (Blood Runs in the Family) was that "What you DO is not separate from what you ARE", this current arc seems to create a message "What you WERE is not always what you ARE".

    While some might be annoyed at the conflict between Andi and Bandana, this strip has given me a new perspective to it; namely, that it is relevant to the themes of this arc. I'm not going to say that they shouldn't be annoyed by this, but I would not say that it is entirely pointless.
    I like this. This makes a whole lot of sense.

    Edit:

    Oh, just to address the people noticing too much of a pile-up of the stakes, I think Mr. Burlew already made it perfectly clear that many factions are jockeying for position for this particular macguffin, so we might be in for more. This crescendo could be the opening salvo that signals the story is coming to the climax and may very well be coming towards the endgame. But that would just be my presumption, I'm just still enjoying the ride after 1066 pages.

    Double Edit:

    Wait, there are 2 threads now? Golly gosh, Christmas (or your culture appropriate holiday) came in February.
    Last edited by Mido; 2017-02-22 at 01:43 AM.

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