This is partially Bandana's fault

[Dune]

EDIT 02/23
I didn't expect this post to be as controversial as it ended up being, and so I didn't word it very carefully. Other than this I haven't edited it, but since posting it I've clarified what I personally meant in the ensuing discussion. It's long, but features a lot of good posts arguing both sides, most made by better writers than me!

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People in the #1066 discussion thread are being pretty hard on Andi right now.

I'm going to go against the grain and defend her a little. This is Bandana's fault just as much as hers.

Yes, Andi obviously screwed up hugely here. Mutinying in the middle of a crisis is indefensible. But Bandana's the captain; motivation, inspiration and discipline are all part of her job description. Managing the crew's morale is her responsibility. Roy is pretty good at that part of being a leader; I haven't seen any evidence that Bandana's done that, or that she's effectively communicated to the crew what the stakes of this particular mission are. They know there's some vague apocalyptic threat, but we learned in #1028 that they tend to be pretty blasé about those, and as of that strip they weren't sure what the threat even was (And why exactly? It's not like being all secretive serves much purpose at this stage. You don't have to tell them EVERYTHING, but your team openly questioning the seriousness of the mission merits some kind of response beyond a hands-on-hips look.)

Yeah, the crew was willing to undertake the mission back in #1028 when they were promised payment, but that was before Bandana got three members of her crew murdered by giants and nearly wrecked the ship. This is an unusually dangerous mission. We've seen no evidence that she's instilled commensurately strong motivation in her crew, or even tried to. She's just barked orders at them and expected them to obey her the way they obeyed Julio.

But she's not Julio, and she's kidding herself if she expects them to treat her with that level of trust yet. So far, from her crew's perspective, she's gotten the ship seriously damaged in a storm, harbored a vampire on board (which, it turned out, was just as bad an idea as many of them suspected) and flown them into a giant-infested deathtrap. We, the audience, know that she's made all the right decisions based on the information available to her. Her crew doesn't. If they're questioning her leadership at this point, that's on her.

Making the right decisions is 50% of being a leader. She's flunking the other 50%.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Against the grain? You have literally not said anything that wasn't discussed already in the threads for #1063, #1064 and/or #1065.

The same generalization that the rest of the crew shares Andi views, the same hypothesis that Bandana did a bad job being captain, the same assertion that the crew doesn't understand the mission and the same rather offensive proposition that the victim of a crime is responsible for the actions of the person assaulting them.

Honestly, I'm tired of repeating myself on this topic.

Grey Wolf

[Kish]

Yes, congratulations. You are in the minority in arguing that the assault victim and currently-tied-up acting captain is as much to blame for her assault as the assaulter and mutineer. Enjoy your against-the-grain status.

[hroþila]

Plot twist: the Giant is about to reveal just how TERRIBLE Bandana was as a kid, which will completely justify Andi's actions. COMPLETELY.

[Kantaki]

People are pretty hard on Andi cause with every further comic it is clearer that she's only against B cause she's against B.
There is no valid reason. It's all about Bandana being "the kid".

To be it looks like she's still the same grumpy teenager who is angry because she couldn't do her homework while babysitting little Beatrix Captain Bandana.
B on the other hand clearly moved on from simple dreaming and playing to really commanding a ship.
Well, she's usually second in command, but I seriously doubt Julio had left her in Charge if she were as incompetent as Andi believes.
At least she was doing her job unlike a certain chief engineer I could mention.

[littlebum2002]

In other words, the Oracle and the gnome getting killed were partially Haley's fault because she wasn't a good leader.

[Peelee]

Welp, time to go see if there's anyone what owes me ten gold.

[ThePhantasm]

Ah yes, the victim of a physical attack is partially to blame for not inspiring her attacker enough to like her. Which, by the way, we've discovered is impossible due to her attacker's irrational hang-up on their age difference.

A captain doesn't have to earn respect. You respect the rank, not the person. You do so because the only other option is chaos. Andi chose chaos, because she's stupid. Her stupidity is entirely her own fault and can't be blamed on Bandana one bit.

[Peelee]

On the other hand, it's always a good day when ThePhantasm is back!

[ThePhantasm]

Ha, I lurk a good bit, I just don't always have time to comment. Nice to be welcomed though.

[Mightymosy]

People in the #1066 discussion thread are being pretty hard on Andi right now.

I'm going to go against the grain and defend her a little. This is Bandana's fault just as much as hers.

Yes, Andi obviously screwed up hugely here. Mutinying in the middle of a crisis is indefensible. But Bandana's the captain; motivation, inspiration and discipline are all part of her job description. Managing the crew's morale is her responsibility. Roy is pretty good at that part of being a leader; I haven't seen any evidence that Bandana's done that, or that she's effectively communicated to the crew what the stakes of this particular mission are. They know there's some vague apocalyptic threat, but we learned in #1028 that they tend to be pretty blasé about those, and as of that strip they weren't sure what the threat even was (And why exactly? It's not like being all secretive serves much purpose at this stage. You don't have to tell them EVERYTHING, but your team openly questioning the seriousness of the mission merits some kind of response beyond a hands-on-hips look.)

Yeah, the crew was willing to undertake the mission back in #1028 when they were promised payment, but that was before Bandana got three members of her crew murdered by giants and nearly wrecked the ship. This is an unusually dangerous mission. We've seen no evidence that she's instilled commensurately strong motivation in her crew, or even tried to. She's just barked orders at them and expected them to obey her the way they obeyed Julio.

But she's not Julio, and she's kidding herself if she expects them to treat her with that level of trust yet. So far, from her crew's perspective, she's gotten the ship seriously damaged in a storm, harbored a vampire on board (which, it turned out, was just as bad an idea as many of them suspected) and flown them into a giant-infested deathtrap. We, the audience, know that she's made all the right decisions based on the information available to her. Her crew doesn't. If they're questioning her leadership at this point, that's on her.

Making the right decisions is 50% of being a leader. She's flunking the other 50%.

We had this discussion for some time now, and I made similar points, althought I don't view them as strongly as you seem to do.
Especially the sentence I bolded is what I disagree with to 97%.
Andi is the one to blame.
If we are in accordance about that, we can discuss how Bandana was - although generally doing alright - not the stellar (flawless) captain some people seem to imply she is.
(Of course that wouldn't actually be expected, considering this is likely her first commando!)

Against the grain? You have literally not said anything that wasn't discussed already in the threads for #1063, #1064 and/or #1065.

The same generalization that the rest of the crew shares Andi views, the same hypothesis that Bandana did a bad job being captain, the same assertion that the crew doesn't understand the mission and the same rather offensive proposition that the victim of a crime is responsible for the actions of the person assaulting them.

Honestly, I'm tired of repeating myself on this topic.

Grey Wolf

And yet you do, like all of us who can't let go

Ah yes, the victim of a physical attack is partially to blame for not inspiring her attacker enough to like her. Which, by the way, we've discovered is impossible due to her attacker's irrational hang-up on their age difference.

A captain doesn't have to earn respect. You respect the rank, not the person. You do so because the only other option is chaos. Andi chose chaos, because she's stupid. Her stupidity is entirely her own fault and can't be blamed on Bandana one bit.

Well, regarding the case in discussion (the current mutiny on the mechane), you're right.
In general, I wouldn't agree with your assessment to 100% either. There are enough RL reasons why you should in fact do your best not to simply respect a rank, and instead question whether that person has actually earned that rank and then decide whether you want to follow their orders (again, not always applicable at all times. In a timely crisis, a chain of command needs to work, like, now. All the more reason to check whether your "captain" is worth your respect before that crisis happens, if you can).

As a matter of fact, the above concept is what I believe is a core part of what makes up the Chaos philosophy as I understand it. And in the comic we also get examples how this can, when driven to far, also lead to very bad outcomes.

[TheNecrocomicon]

On the other hand, it's always a good day when ThePhantasm is back!

Ha, I lurk a good bit, I just don't always have time to comment. Nice to be welcomed though.

Dang, who cast Summon Veteran Forumgoer IX? Or maybe you just roll really well on Stealth checks, being ethereal and all.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

And yet you do, like all of us who can't let go

Nah, that wasn't a post about my position, just a restating of theirs. At best, you could claim that was a meta argument, which I suppose makes this a meta meta argument.

GW

[Koo Rehtorb]

Bandana's incompetent and unpleasant. She should consider herself lucky if they don't make her walk the plank after this is all over.

[Koo Rehtorb]

Second post for more content:

This is a pirate ship. One might be able to make a case for mutiny being "bad" if this was a national ship, the crew recruited by their country (and presumably swearing oaths on it and so on), the captain appointed by the admiralty, the admiralty deriving its authority from the legally recognized government of that nation, and the ship's task being assigned from higher up. None of that is the case. The Mechane is a pirate ship. The captain of a pirate ship serves entirely by the mutual agreement and respect of the crew. She has no authority derived from an outside source whatsoever. If a pirate captain no longer commands the respect and support of her crew the best she can expect from them is being marooned, and that's generous.

[ref]

I am thankful for Andi because thanks to her Miko is not the worst character ever.

[Thokk_Smash]

Second post for more content:

This is a pirate ship. One might be able to make a case for mutiny being "bad" if this was a national ship, the crew recruited by their country (and presumably swearing oaths on it and so on), the captain appointed by the admiralty, the admiralty deriving its authority from the legally recognized government of that nation, and the ship's task being assigned from higher up. None of that is the case. The Mechane is a pirate ship. The captain of a pirate ship serves entirely by the mutual agreement and respect of the crew. She has no authority derived from an outside source whatsoever. If a pirate captain no longer commands the respect and support of her crew the best she can expect from them is being marooned, and that's generous.

I believe Bandana served by the appointment of Julio, who is the rightful captain and chose her as his replacement. If this were the kind of pirate ship you think it is, Julio would be well within his "rights" to have Andi walk the plank for disobeying his orders.

[Koo Rehtorb]

I believe Bandana served by the appointment of Julio, who is the rightful captain and chose her as his replacement. If this were the kind of pirate ship you think it is, Julio would be well within his "rights" to have Andi walk the plank for disobeying his orders.

Julio has no rightful authority either. He serves by the approval of the crew just as much as Bandana does. He was just better at it than she is.

[Keltest]

I believe Bandana served by the appointment of Julio, who is the rightful captain and chose her as his replacement. If this were the kind of pirate ship you think it is, Julio would be well within his "rights" to have Andi walk the plank for disobeying his orders.

For that matter, Andi is not "the crew" and from what we have been shown, popular opinion among the crew seems to be that Andi's actions were inappropriate and out of line, and the only reason they aren't dealing with her now is because they have more important things to do, like their jobs.

[veti]

It's a pirate ship. All talk of "rightful" and "within rights" is hallucinating something that's not really there.

The "rightful" captain of a pirate ship is the one whose orders have the greatest chance of being obeyed. Five strips ago that was Bandana, now it's Andi. As far as "rights" go, that's all there is to it.

What the crew decide to do about the situation once they have leisure to think about it - well, that's up to them. They're pirates. They live by a 'code', but the code will always boil down to "whatever a majority of the crew can be persuaded to go along with".

[KorvinStarmast]

No, it isn't Bandana's fault. They got paid, in advance.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

What the crew decide to do about the situation once they have leisure to think about it - well, that's up to them. They're pirates. They live by a 'code', but the code will always boil down to "whatever a majority of the crew can be persuaded to go along with".

"The crew"? Once again, here we see people pretending that Andi is somehow representative for the entire crew, when it is clear she is a rogue element.

GW

[veti]

"The crew"? Once again, here we see people pretending that Andi is somehow representative for the entire crew, when it is clear she is a rogue element.

GW

Where do you see that "pretense" in my comment? "The crew" is clearly "everyone who has a job to do in running the ship".

Is Andi "representative" of them? Well, as I said, that's for them to decide - once they have time to think about it. It's a question that hasn't yet been tested, so anyone who pretends to have a definitive answer is, again, hallucinating.

[Keltest]

Where do you see that "pretense" in my comment? "The crew" is clearly "everyone who has a job to do in running the ship".

Is Andi "representative" of them? Well, as I said, that's for them to decide - once they have time to think about it. It's a question that hasn't yet been tested, so anyone who pretends to have a definitive answer is, again, hallucinating.

Those who were present certainly seem to object to the mutiny. Not to the point of physically attacking Andi, but enough that they take the time from their duties for a moment to berate her.

[Marlowe]

A ship, be it naval, commercial, or private, is a complicated social and engineering structure that depends of every member of the crew knowing their jobs, doing their jobs, knowing who they answer to, obeying those they are supposed to obey without question, and even knowing how their jobs change when other members are incapacitated. Ships, all ships, depend for their minute to minute survival on the heirarchy of command being respected. It doesn't matter a damn that the Mechane is a pirate vessel.

The wonder is that somebody as dangerously irresponsible as Andi has lasted this long without being put of the side as a menace to everyone.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Where do you see that "pretense" in my comment? "The crew" is clearly "everyone who has a job to do in running the ship".

Indeed, and not a single one has expressed support for Andi (who was failing to do her job pre-mutiny, and is now failing to do both her actual job and the job of the captain post-mutiny). So you saying that they will (or that they need to) is absurd. The ship is owned and run by Julio. He placed B in charge. Noone but Andi had a problem with it, and they are all salaried employees. You are pretending this is not the case - that this pirate ship is, I don't know, following the rules of sea pirates in 17th Century RL. Which as assumptions go, is quite wrong given the evidence in the comic.

Is Andi "representative" of them? Well, as I said, that's for them to decide - once they have time to think about it. It's a question that hasn't yet been tested, so anyone who pretends to have a definitive answer is, again, hallucinating.

No, it is not for them to decide. Nothing in the comic suggests this ship runs by committee. And if it did, the crew was clearly happier with B than they are with Andi. What you are saying is effectively an excuse: "well, they are unhappy with Andi now, but that might change in the next comic..." and it will forever remain an excuse, because there will always be a potential next comic.

In the mean time, there is no hallucination on the readers part that Andi is not doind her job, and not doing the captain's job, and all her decisions are making the situation worse, and the crew is quite unhappy with this.

GW

[Marlowe]

employees. You are pretending this is not the case - that this pirate ship is, I don't know, following the rules of sea pirates in 17th Century RL. Which as assumptions go, is quite wrong given the evidence in the comic.

Put Andi on a 17th century pirate ship and see if she lasts very long.

[goodpeople25]

Put Andi on a 17th century pirate ship and see if she lasts very long.

Quite long to the extent of taking it over due to operating under D&D physics? (Not sure about the exact specifics though)

[nocoolnamejim]

Julio has no rightful authority either. He serves by the approval of the crew just as much as Bandana does. He was just better at it than she is.

He owns the ship. I call that rightful authority.

[Koo Rehtorb]

He owns the ship. I call that rightful authority.

What legal entity recognizes his ownership of this pirate vessel?