This is partially Bandana's fault

[veti]

Indeed, and not a single one has expressed support for Andi (who was failing to do her job pre-mutiny, and is now failing to do both her actual job and the job of the captain post-mutiny). So you saying that they will (or that they need to) is absurd.

I didn't say that they will. And I'm still waiting for an answer to my previous question, "where do you see [the implication that Andi is somehow representative of the crew] in my comment?" I'm genuinely curious, because I can't for the life of me see where I said anything so baseless and stupid, yet you're imputing it to me.

As to Andi's support among the crew: there are five people shown in #1062 that are close enough to express an opinion. So far, those opinions have been:
Pirate at helm: "Aye aye, captain" (clearly acknowledging Andi as the relevant authority, "legitimate" or not)
Pirate with cutlass and overcoat: "What the hell, Andi?" - etc.
Pirate with headscarf: "This is all wrong" (but mostly concerned for fallen Bandana)
Pirate with earring: "OK, this sucks... but we need to focus on getting out of here."
Pirate with cutlass and beard: (no response at all)

That's hardly a tidal wave of protest, and even less actual resistance. Two out of five express active disapproval, one is distressed but not to the point of complaint, two accept the situation without (so far) a murmur. When they have time to settle it, the crew could decide to side with Bandana, or Andi, or neither. I don't know what's going to happen and neither do you, so let's not pretend we do.

[Murk]

Sure, it's partially Bandana's fault. She acted like the title of captain actually holds some top-down authority on a ship filled with outlaws - like she didn't need to explain her actions - and like she wasn't only being followed out of goodwill. This isn't a military vessel with a strict hierarchy that everyone knows of and agrees to. The ship seems more like a cooperation to me, with Julio Scoundrel being the leader because people trust him, like him, and agree with him - not because he holds the title of captain.
In a way, Julio Scoundrel was captain because people followed him, not the other way around. Bandana, however, expected it the other way around: people will follow me because I'm the captain. I think that was mistaken.

Andi, of course, is too blame too. After all, she is the one who hit the captain. She was trying to safe her life, though, so those are mitigating circumstances, but she could at least have done it before they were actually involved in a battle.
I for one can totally see where she's coming from. She's on this ship because she likes the ship, the light-hearted pirating, and Julio Scoundrel. Then, Julio Scoundrel leaves, the ship gets wrecked twice (the first time almost not being repaired), and the pirate ship turns into a taxi. Voiced concerns gets swept away, and since the ship is somewhere in the middle of nowhere, she can't just leave. She is pretty much forced to follow someone she doesn't trust into a life endangering situation for a cause that isn't hers. That would make we want to turn around too.

But because of that, the one I think is most to blame is Julio Scoundrel himself. What was the guy thinking?? He takes the pirate crew on an adventure (like he often did), but then leaves while they're still far away from any civilised port. He puts someone with no experience into the position of "captain", and doesn't even discuss with his crew what they should do while he is away? He just gives Bandana a free leash to go do whatever she wants, even if that involves endangering the lives of the entire crew?
Did he discuss this with the crew? I expect most of them were OK with the pirate life because they trusted him. Does he ask them if they trust the new captain too? (Clearly not, because the main engineer really really doesn't).
Did he at least give them the opportunity to just abandon ship and return home? (No, because he leaves mid-flight)

Sure, I think Bandana trusted too much on her authority, and sure, Andi hit a crew member with a wrench, so sure, both of them were at fault - but Julio Scoundrel was the rightful leader. He is the one who should have made sensible decisions the most, and he decided to just leave without discussing matters thoroughly.

Blame Julio!

[Dune]

I'm going to single three (well, four, sort of) things out for response.

First off, maybe I was unclear, so let me clarify: I am not saying that Bandana's to blame for Andi whacking her on the head with a wrench. 100% of the responsibility for that falls on Andi. I am saying that she's partially to blame for the ensuing chaos on the ship and the overall bad situation they're now in (and if you think those things are impossible to disentangle from each other, then that's fair enough, but I disagree). Putting the responsibility for a crime on the victim IS offensive, and I want to be very clear, I'm not saying that.

Second, I'm not holding Andi up as representative of the crew. Maybe other people have; I'm not. The truth is we just haven't spent much time with the rest of the crew. I'm mostly extrapolating based off their reactions in #1028 and #1055. Also, as people have pointed out, Andi is a member of the crew, and a pretty prominent one -- whatever her faults, and they're substantial, she should not have had her concerns brushed off so cursorily.

Third, I am not trying to ABSOLVE Andi of responsibility for the current situation (probably saying I was "defending" her was a word too far -- but I think I was pretty clear that I thought she'd acted very badly). Responsibility isn't a zero-sum game. It's the crew's responsibility to respect and obey their captain, and it's the captain's responsibility to be a captain worth obeying.

Lastly, I realize I'm probably not making any friends by saying this to people who're plainly much more established on this board than I am, but in my opinion some of you should rethink how you respond to people on here. I can tell a lot of you feel this topic's apparently been done to death; well, maybe, but obviously I didn't know that or I wouldn't have posted. I lurk enough here to be familiar with the general board culture but I'll admit I didn't exhaustively browse the threads for the previous five comics. I read the first few pages of the current discussion thread & scanned the first page of forum threads and didn't see much discussion of Bandana's leadership style at all. The level of exasperation verging on disgust in some of the initial replies here was, frankly, pretty unpleasant and unwelcoming.

edit; the previous post (Murk's) makes some good points that I agree with, more eloquently than I would have made them.

[Rynjin]

Second post for more content:

This is a pirate ship. One might be able to make a case for mutiny being "bad" if this was a national ship, the crew recruited by their country (and presumably swearing oaths on it and so on), the captain appointed by the admiralty, the admiralty deriving its authority from the legally recognized government of that nation, and the ship's task being assigned from higher up. None of that is the case. The Mechane is a pirate ship. The captain of a pirate ship serves entirely by the mutual agreement and respect of the crew. She has no authority derived from an outside source whatsoever. If a pirate captain no longer commands the respect and support of her crew the best she can expect from them is being marooned, and that's generous.

It's a pirate ship. All talk of "rightful" and "within rights" is hallucinating something that's not really there.

The "rightful" captain of a pirate ship is the one whose orders have the greatest chance of being obeyed. Five strips ago that was Bandana, now it's Andi. As far as "rights" go, that's all there is to it.

What the crew decide to do about the situation once they have leisure to think about it - well, that's up to them. They're pirates. They live by a 'code', but the code will always boil down to "whatever a majority of the crew can be persuaded to go along with".

Real pirate crews did not (and do not) work this way. Because real pirates aren't ****ing idiots.

The whole point of having a captain is to have a crisis shot caller. Someone who is DECISIVE is the most important part of this, because in a crisis you have no time to dither.

A pirate crew would be quite happy to mutiny and kill an unpopular captain...in a time of peace and relative safety.

In the middle of an attack, in unfamiliar and dangerous territory (this is the airship equivalent of trying to sail in shallow waters around a reef while enemies are attacking), most pirates wouldn't be dumb enough to do this. The ones that were that dumb didn't last long.

The rest of the pirate crew is going along with Andi right now because, unlike her, they're NOT ****ing idiots. Losing the shot-caller and having her replaced by an indecisive and untrustworthy person is a bad thing. Them losing their collective **** and then attacking Andi in turn would be even worse for the crew and ship as a whole because they'd have to waste time figuring out who's in charge from there since the chain of command has been completely broken at that point.

A mutiny is not bad because it disrespects authority. A mutiny is bad (during a crisis) because it puts the whole operation in danger. This applies whether you're military, civilian, or pirate. Punishing mutiny and discouraging it is common sense for the WHOLE crew, not just self preservation for the captain.

If this were a real pirate crew, with Andi's current showing, they'd be keel-hauling her immediately after the current crisis is averted, assuming by some miracle it actually is. Even if Bandana were dead, Andi did not go through some of the necessary elements of carrying out a successful mutiny.

Most importantly having people who want you in charge on your side.

Which leads to the second reason why mutinies are bad, no matter your crew. You run the risk of a significant portion of the crew not AGREEING with your mutiny. This is why you plan mutinies for a long damn time, not commit them as an off the cuff action because you're a petulant brat. You want to make sure you have enough supporters you can either cow or kill the dissenters because otherwise you have a small scale civil war and run the risk of not having enough crew left alive to man the ship and make it to the next port.

Andi's mutiny isn't stupid because of "legitimate authority" it's stupid because it wasn't planned, isn't a popular move, was done at the wrong time, AND because it violates the social contract of the ship (which, if this were a real pirate ship, would be an actual written contract in many cases outlining all the rules of the ship and how pay was handled). Basically, it's stupid because literally every component action leading up to it, related to the situation around it, and going forward into the future are STUPID.

Popular conception of pirates as absolutely lawless, unorganized hordes of people who happen to occupy the same space are absolutely unrealistic and defy common sense.

[Onyavar]

Lastly, I realize I'm probably not making any friends by saying this to people who're plainly much more established on this board than I am, but in my opinion some of you should rethink how you respond to people on here. I can tell a lot of you feel this topic's apparently been done to death; well, maybe, but obviously I didn't know that or I wouldn't have posted. I lurk enough here to be familiar with the general board culture but I'll admit I didn't exhaustively browse the threads for the previous five comics. I read the first few pages of the current discussion thread & scanned the first page of forum threads and didn't see much discussion of Bandana's leadership style at all. The level of exasperation verging on disgust in some of the initial replies here was, frankly, pretty unpleasant and unwelcoming.

Well, it's just that some posters throughout the regular discussion threads have shown little to no common sense and made pretty clear that Bandana was somehow a bad captain and Andi's defiance and later mutiny was entirely justificated under the circumstances. No comic update could sway them:
- Not 1062, where Andi mutinied by accident at the worst possible time
- Not 1064, where Andi was shown indecisive. Worse, she was justifying herself, again at the worst possible time
- Not 1065, where Andi celebrated her previous lack of commanding skills
- Not 1066, where Andi justified herself again... while still in a crisis situation.

So, when you started a new thread on the same horse that was beaten to death in previous and even co-existing threads, people who already discussed there, get irritated. I wouldn't blame them.

[Quild]

Bandana's incompetent and unpleasant. She should consider herself lucky if they don't make her walk the plank after this is all over.

Is that just a troll? I don't see how Bandana is any of that.

Julio put her in charge of helping the Order.
They went through a storm and Bandana got the Order to pay for the repair even if the Order finds another way to go North. Sure, that's the Order decision to pay for the damages either way, but if Bandana had been unpleasant, they probably wouldn't go that far. Also Andi acts really nice with Roy (Mr. Big Time Hero guy) when she meets him but already starts to make comments about Bandana being "a kid".
Bandana was useless for the repairs. She went with Haley and Elan, got attacked, managed to help and... Andi is mad at that.
After the Godsmoot, Bandana agrees with the crew and get them a very good payment for helping the Order. Only Andi is still angry.

Then comes the current events.
Bandana quickly goes to the same conclusions than Roy. It's not a random encounter, other pass are probably filled with giants too, someone's trying to stop the world to be saved. Another crew member makes a comment about how the mechane wouldn't arrive "in the nick of time" if they flee from a fight.
We don't know yet if Andi's decision to change course made things worse or not.

[yldenfrei]

-snipped Truth-

This. The crew's non-hostility towards Andi does not equate to their complicity to the mutiny. They're simply not as idiotic enough as to abandon their posts at such critical time. Isn't this the entire point of the Felix v Andi exchange?

And as I have mentioned before, Bandana's performance is irrelevant whatsoever to the trouble that Andi has caused. She could be the perfect captain anyone can ever dream of and Andi will still find a way to undermine her position. Any snipes directed at her "failure to inspire and band the entire crewmember" are sad attempts at undermining her legitimacy for the position. Pretty much what Andi does... Huh, imagine that.

So to answer OP: No, this is not Bandana's fault, not one bit.

[Murk]

No, this is not Bandana's fault, not one bit.

Not even one bit? I think it was Bandana who decided to taxi the Order further north to save the world. Andi for one didn't feel up to it. The only reason they are even near these ice giants is because of the Order and Bandana.

(Then again, it was Julio who left Bandana with only one message: give the Order what they want. So, once again: Blame Julio!)

[Mido]

I don't think the argument should be that there is fault in their decisions, but rather it should be the reason behind their decisions, the why of it. Since OP is agreeing with the post to be quoted, I will try to provide arguments on that post's account while trying to provide in-comic evidence to support it as best I can. Granted, these are just observations and presumptions on subtext, but I'll do my best.

Sure, it's partially Bandana's fault. She acted like the title of captain actually holds some top-down authority on a ship filled with outlaws - like she didn't need to explain her actions - and like she wasn't only being followed out of goodwill. This isn't a military vessel with a strict hierarchy that everyone knows of and agrees to. The ship seems more like a cooperation to me, with Julio Scoundrel being the leader because people trust him, like him, and agree with him - not because he holds the title of captain.
In a way, Julio Scoundrel was captain because people followed him, not the other way around. Bandana, however, expected it the other way around: people will follow me because I'm the captain. I think that was mistaken.

I count this against Bandana too, but only just so, not enough to say that it is blame worthy for her competence, maybe just something to consider when improvements are called upon. Note that in the comic showing how Bandana gained authority, the captain explicitly transferred command over to Bandana. It did not happen in an interregnum or any such void in leadership. Thus, she is going by the order of the captain. By all intents and purposes, she is issuing commands under the notion of following her captain's order. Now, there are some presumptions on this since we don't get to see Julio's departure and his complete actions all together beforehand (whether all within the crew were made aware of this arrangement is rather vague), but the takeaway from this should be that all the actions she has done so far, the motivation she has for those actions, whether they had been correct or blame worthy, would be she was doing it following the spirit of her captain's orders, objective in a sense. By her account, everybody "should" follow her orders because it was due to the orders of the captain of the ship, not her title. She was doing her job, not throwing her rank around.

Andi, of course, is too blame too. After all, she is the one who hit the captain. She was trying to safe her life, though, so those are mitigating circumstances, but she could at least have done it before they were actually involved in a battle.
I for one can totally see where she's coming from. She's on this ship because she likes the ship, the light-hearted pirating, and Julio Scoundrel. Then, Julio Scoundrel leaves, the ship gets wrecked twice (the first time almost not being repaired), and the pirate ship turns into a taxi. Voiced concerns gets swept away, and since the ship is somewhere in the middle of nowhere, she can't just leave. She is pretty much forced to follow someone she doesn't trust into a life endangering situation for a cause that isn't hers. That would make we want to turn around too.

Some sort of sympathy for Andi's plight on some of these points can be understood to a point, to that I can concede. What I cannot concede to is the notion that her intentions for making these actions came from a void and are just motivated out of sheer desperation. This is just one example but time and again, Andi has exemplified that the basis for her snipes at Bandana's incompetence is her own prejudice towards her being in the current rank in the first place, punctuated by statements like "You stubborn little brat, why won't you just do what I tell you to do?!?" and "I mean she was never really captain. She was just a temporary caretaker, and she shouldn't have been picked for that much. She's just a kid!" The second quote there flies right in the face of her trust in Julio's command actually since she even questions Bandana being left as the temporary caretaker. So, by all accounts, I don't think I'm reaching too far when I conclude that motivations for her actions maybe attributed somewhat to panic and desperation but it is definitely predicated by her bias towards Bandana being a "brat" (by her own estimation), by her distrust in Bandana's appointment in a command position and, in turn, against orders from their temporarily absent captain. It was, IMHO, a show of feeling entitled, subjective and dare I say rather selfish. Also, at no point were her concerns merely swept under the rug, but were rebutted with rather convincing replies.

But because of that, the one I think is most to blame is Julio Scoundrel himself. What was the guy thinking?? He takes the pirate crew on an adventure (like he often did), but then leaves while they're still far away from any civilised port. He puts someone with no experience into the position of "captain", and doesn't even discuss with his crew what they should do while he is away? He just gives Bandana a free leash to go do whatever she wants, even if that involves endangering the lives of the entire crew?
Did he discuss this with the crew? I expect most of them were OK with the pirate life because they trusted him. Does he ask them if they trust the new captain too? (Clearly not, because the main engineer really really doesn't).
Did he at least give them the opportunity to just abandon ship and return home? (No, because he leaves mid-flight)

Sure, I think Bandana trusted too much on her authority, and sure, Andi hit a crew member with a wrench, so sure, both of them were at fault - but Julio Scoundrel was the rightful leader. He is the one who should have made sensible decisions the most, and he decided to just leave without discussing matters thoroughly.

Blame Julio!

This ones, a bit harder, but lemme see...

Julio by all accounts, from what I can presume from the narrative woven so far, is a good captain. He still had a ship and he still had a ship-shape crew when he left. Him leaving in a vague manner and leaving somebody else in-charge in such a quick fashion, not really optimal but it is within his nature, chaotic and all and actually consistent with his personality. He had left the order to benefit the OOTS as a present for his protege Elan but he had alluded that he needed some time off adventuring (I'm too old for this crap). For reference, the link above for arguments about Bandana should help out here, but my point is, his leaving in a haphazard fashion was not out of any mean-spirited or negligent motivation but rather a sort of having too much in his cup that he put his trust on the crew he has had for quite some time to uphold his order until he came back. Again, objective based on his trust in his crew. Wrong? Probably but not motivated by something thoroughly impulsive or selfish (if it was, leaving the note would not have been one of his priorities).

So, tl;dr, to sum up, Bandana: actions based on following an order from her captain, Andi: actions based on prejudice against appointed commander and Julio: actions based on responsibility as a mentor (the ferry for the OOTS) and responsibility for his own well-being (needing a vacation).

And, lastly, we come to the main point of the thesis, that ultimately, Julio, the captain is to blame. If I were to be absolutely objective, I'd say I can somewhat agree to that. In a sense, people in command/leadership get a raw deal. If an incursion goes well he gets to keep his/her position for a job well done but if anything goes wrong, the captain is to blame wholly. For outsiders, it would make sense since the captain is the one in charge of everything essentially, but it seems like it's a dim view and somewhat unfair, because we just take away agency from the people within the crew that did the wrongful action under their care. The captain cannot be everywhere at once, he does have to put a level of trust in his crew. It's unsustainable to do so otherwise, bordering on paranoia.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents on the matter. I can't truly say that it is correct, but do with it what you will. Although my thoughts may meander on some parts of this long post. My apologies, perhaps I should not have made such a lengthy one while I'm nursing a head cold.

[Dune]

Well, it's just that some posters throughout the regular discussion threads have shown little to no common sense and made pretty clear that Bandana was somehow a bad captain and Andi's defiance and later mutiny was entirely justificated under the circumstances. [...]

So, when you started a new thread on the same horse that was beaten to death in previous and even co-existing threads, people who already discussed there, get irritated. I wouldn't blame them.

Well, as regards Andi, I don't disagree. I think she's been portrayed as impulsive and petty, and she certainly doesn't make a good captain. That's why I said the word "defend" in my first post was a mistake -- if I had known people were going to take this topic so deadly seriously I definitely would have worded it more carefully!

The discussion threads you mentioned only last for a few days & then slide off the front page, rarely being posted in again. I checked -- there were no active threads about this when I first posted. Given that, and that I'm talking about the overall arc and character development and not just one specific comic, I don't think creating this thread was out of line, and I don't think that excuses snapping at people.

I do understand that the prev. discussions were frustrating and tempers are a little on edge. In response -- and this is a personal suggestion with no bearing on the forum rules, not an attempt to backseat mod -- I'd strongly suggest (to others, not to you) that when you meet new people you treat them as individuals, and make sure you understand what they're saying before bringing out the snark-cannons, particularly before making not-so-veiled allusions to serious real-world problems like victim blaming.

I know it can be tiring to assume good faith until proven otherwise when you're fielding conversations with many people, many of whom are behaving badly, but I believe it's still always the best policy.

In other words, the Oracle and the gnome getting killed were partially Haley's fault because she wasn't a good leader.

Yes! Yes, exactly.

Except in her case there were VERY STRONG extenuating circumstances. Because Haley was Belkar's leader in name only; she didn't ask for or want the job, and he didn't acknowledge her authority in the least, as she pointed out one strip later. She assumed nominal "leadership" of him out of pure necessity, readily acknowledged her inexperience and unsuitability for the job, and was eager to relinquish the role to someone better-suited for it as soon as possible. Contrast with Bandana who in #959 explicitly rejects the parallel between their situations! Because she feels ready and clearly wants the position. There's no equivalency.

In general, though, leaders are absolutely responsible for the actions of their team, which is why the deva grilled Roy so hard about Belkar's actions in #489. This in no way absolves Belkar of ANY responsibility for those actions. It simply shifts the burden onto both their shoulders. Fortunately in that instance Roy was able to justify himself very well.

(one more edit) In Bandana's case, the responsibility for the breakdown of the chain of command and probable crash of the Mechane, NOT for getting hit on the head with a wrench. I can't emphasize that enough!

[Murk]

-Snip-

I can agree with all this, actually. It's a fairly nuanced view on the role of all those involved.
I'm not saying Andi should get a get-out-of-jail-free card. She made things worse out of personal interests and that is not OK.
I'm not saying Bandana should go to jail, either. She made some less-than-optimal decisions, but mistakes happen.

I do think that this could all have been avoided by giving Andi some options beforehand. Taking a vacation in Tinkertown while others go risk their lives? Taking a vacation for the entire duration of Julio's absence? Even saying "If you want, take your money and go!" would have given her an other option than "follow a captain you don't trust".
I'm not sure if it should have been Julio or Bandana that should have given her that option, but one of them is to blame for taking unwilling crew members on a dangerous trip.

[Quild]

No, this is not Bandana's fault, not one bit.

Not even one bit? I think it was Bandana who decided to taxi the Order further north to save the world. Andi for one didn't feel up to it. The only reason they are even near these ice giants is because of the Order and Bandana.

(Then again, it was Julio who left Bandana with only one message: give the Order what they want. So, once again: Blame Julio!)

I don't consider you're at fault when you did nothing wrong.

You can't even blame Bandana for her relationship with Andi. If anything, #1066 shows how irrational Andi is with Bandana. It probably wasn't that much of an issue before Bandana became temporary captain and I don't think Bandana's first decision should have been to fire the chief engineer.

Bandana mostly answered "zip it" to any of Andi's complains, but never failed to explain her reasons or act when possible (you're getting paid, zip it! Retreat wouldn't be safer and the world won't save itself, zip it!).

Soooo... Could Bandana have avoided the current situation? Maybe. Would it have been a better situation? Hard to say. Even with some hindsight, I don't see what Bandana could have changed.
Oh, maybe not be that difficult with her babysitter some 15+ years ago?

Taking a vacation in Tinkertown while others go risk their lives? Taking a vacation for the entire duration of Julio's absence? Even saying "If you want, take your money and go!" would have given her an other option than "follow a captain you don't trust".
I'm not sure if it should have been Julio or Bandana that should have given her that option, but one of them is to blame for taking unwilling crew members on a dangerous trip.

If Bandana had had Andi leaving the Mechane when she became captain (before knowing that Andi would be that much trouble) the Mechane would likely be at the bottom of the sea right now.

Andi never expressed a will to leave the crew even temporary. You don't get to suggest this kind of things to someone who's not asking... It shows a great lack of confidence in yourself if anything...

[Dune]

I hope this double post isn't against the forum rules, but I thought Mido's post deserved more than just an edit. I hope he'll forgive me for cherrypicking what I respond to. He wrote a great post that's worth a lengthy response but if I hit everything I think the wall of text will be unreadable!

(edit - oh, goody, not a double post anymore)

Some sort of sympathy for Andi's plight on some of these points can be understood to a point ... I don't think I'm reaching too far when I conclude that motivations for her actions ... is definitely predicated by her bias towards Bandana being a "brat" (by her own estimation)

My goal wasn't to say, "Andi is great and faultless," but to start a conversation about Bandana's leadership abilities so far (And obviously questioning those isn't the same as saying "Bandana is a WORTHLESS LEADER and an awful character and I hope she gets hit with a wrench over and over and over, nyahahaha!")

In an alternate universe, where Andi kept a cool head and did her job without complaint and then, AFTER the crisis had passed, when they touched down in Firmament or wherever, resigned and said "This has been a disaster, drop me a line when Julio gets back", I'd be pretty much completely on her side.

As it is, I think it's apparent that Andi's complaints are coming from a place of jealousy. I also don't think that invalidates them. Legitimate complaints can be made for unfair reasons. I also, of course, don't think the legitimacy (in my view) of some of her complaints excuses her actions. As written, I wouldn't want Andi as a subordinate OR a colleague -- but I also wouldn't want Bandana as a leader.

it seems like it's a dim view and somewhat unfair, because we just take away agency from the people within the crew that did the wrongful action under their care. The captain cannot be everywhere at once, he does have to put a level of trust in his crew. It's unsustainable to do so otherwise, bordering on paranoia.

Well, there's a balance to be struck. I certainly don't expect a leader to be omniscient. But I also don't think Bandana (or Julio -- I think Murk made a good point about him) have done all they can, or should.

You obviously disagree and think she's performed reasonably well. That's cool -- that's why I started this thread!

[Murk]

Andi never expressed a will to leave the crew even temporary. You don't get to suggest this kind of things to someone who's not asking... It shows a great lack of confidence in yourself if anything...

Hm, really? That's not how I would see it.
If you get appointed as interim-boss on short notice, and the original boss hasn't discussed it with the crew yet, asking "Do you guys even want me as a boss?" doesn't seem inconfident to me - I think it would only show consideration for the crew.
If Andi then said "No, you suck I don't want you as captain prfffflt" a short "take it or leave it" would have sufficed. If Bandana then plans to go on a dangerous mission, and once again Andi objects (can't blame her), Bandana can once again say "Well, the Mechane is going. If you don't want to come, don't come".

If Andi goes along both times and still hits the captain with a wrench, well, then I would have nothing left to defend her. For now, though, it really seems like she didn't want to be here in the first place, but wasn't actually given an opportunity to decline.

(Again: still no reason to hit someone with a wrench, but the slightest bit of communication before getting into a risky situation could have helped a lot)

[Quild]

Hm, really? That's not how I would see it.
If you get appointed as interim-boss on short notice, and the original boss hasn't discussed it with the crew yet, asking "Do you guys even want me as a boss?" doesn't seem inconfident to me - I think it would only show consideration for the crew.
If Andi then said "No, you suck I don't want you as captain prfffflt" a short "take it or leave it" would have sufficed. If Bandana then plans to go on a dangerous mission, and once again Andi objects (can't blame her), Bandana can once again say "Well, the Mechane is going. If you don't want to come, don't come".

If Andi goes along both times and still hits the captain with a wrench, well, then I would have nothing left to defend her. For now, though, it really seems like she didn't want to be here in the first place, but wasn't actually given an opportunity to decline.

(Again: still no reason to hit someone with a wrench, but the slightest bit of communication before getting into a risky situation could have helped a lot)

I have no idea which age you are, if you work or what and I hate to compare real world with ootsverse, but...

If my boss changes, I'm technically free to leave the company I work for. It might not be an easy thing and it takes time, but I can do it.
Now if my newly arrived boss first statement is "take it, or leave it" I'm going to think he's terrible at managing. How would "not leaving" at this moment bind me to him? How can I take this decision without knowing what he's worth. Even if I already know him, I might not know what he's worth at this specific position.

When I've been named raid leader on World of Warcraft some 10 and a half years ago at age 19, I didn't ask the 60 guild members "you're either ok with that or you leave the guild". Because if you suggest that very politely, you look weak and not a leader at all. If you suggest it with some strength, you look like you're going to be tyrannic. And if for any reasons, some key people leave the guild while they wouldn't have without you suggesting it, you put everyone at trouble.
What we did instead is that I made some leading for 39 people this day and got them to kill 4 bosses including one we never managed to kill before so far.
If I had asked to everyone if they were ok with me as a leader before and after that raid, I may have had more positive reactions after.

Anyway, I was fired 2 days later because I chose to go and see pirate of the carribeans 2 with some friends on friday evening rather than leading a raid that was obviously going to be a failure due to lack of members connected. Meh.

[Murk]

I have no idea which age you are, if you work or what and I hate to compare real world with ootsverse, but...

If my boss changes, I'm technically free to leave the company I work for. It might not be an easy thing and it takes time, but I can do it.
Now if my newly arrived boss first statement is "take it, or leave it" I'm going to think he's terrible at managing. How would "not leaving" at this moment bind me to him? How can I take this decision without knowing what he's worth. Even if I already know him, I might not know what he's worth at this specific position.

When I've been named raid leader on World of Warcraft some 10 and a half years ago at age 19, I didn't ask the 60 guild members "you're either ok with that or you leave the guild". Because if you suggest that very politely, you look weak and not a leader at all. If you suggest it with some strength, you look like you're going to be tyrannic. And if for any reasons, some key people leave the guild while they wouldn't have without you suggesting it, you put everyone at trouble.
What we did instead is that I made some leading for 39 people this day and got them to kill 4 bosses including one we never managed to kill before so far.
If I had asked to everyone if they were ok with me as a leader before and after that raid, I may have had more positive reactions after.

Anyway, I was fired 2 days later because I chose to go and see pirate of the carribeans 2 with some friends on friday evening rather than leading a raid that was obviously going to be a failure due to lack of members connected. Meh.

Aah, no, of course that's not the opening statement you make.
The opening statement is "Everyone, we've had a sudden shift of management, so we're all going to sit down to talk about this", after which you indeed all sit down, discuss the leadership, possible changes in management style, expectations, etc.
If you have a crew member like Andi, this is a good time to explain your course of actions.
The "take it or leave it" is only if crew member Andi starts complaining (after you've done all you can) that you're a little kid that shouldn't be the boss. However, the way Andi is portrayed in the comic, I'm quite sure she would do exactly that, so I skipped this part.

But no, I didn't mean to say Bandana should start with ultimatums. Exactly the opposite: she should have discussed this weird time of leadership changes with her crew, so that Andi could voice her complaints in a quiet, safe time instead of at a point-of-no-return.

[Dune]

If my boss changes, I'm technically free to leave the company I work for. It might not be an easy thing and it takes time, but I can do it.
Now if my newly arrived boss first statement is "take it, or leave it" I'm going to think he's terrible at managing. [...]

When I've been named raid leader on World of Warcraft some 10 and a half years ago at age 19, I didn't ask the 60 guild members "you're either ok with that or you leave the guild". Because if you suggest that very politely, you look weak and not a leader at all. If you suggest it with some strength, you look like you're going to be tyrannic. And if for any reasons, some key people leave the guild while they wouldn't have without you suggesting it, you put everyone at trouble.

When you took over your guild, I'm assuming you didn't immediately take the guild in a completely different direction. Turn a PVE or social guild into a PVP guild or whatever. If you had, you'd have probably at least shot everyone a quick message letting them know the status quo had changed, right? You probably wouldn't have opened with "All right, if you don't like it, you're free to leave," but I'm guessing you'd have said something. You can correct me if I'm wrong -- I know I would have, anyway.

When a new boss rotates in, or when a company changes ownership, it's pretty commonplace for whoever's in charge to let everybody know what's changing, what's staying the same, often to reassure them a little bit and sometimes to invite people who have any questions or concerns to "please, feel free to come and talk to me." Of course with a lot of managers that open door policy is a complete fiction, but it shouldn't be.

That goes double for the OotSverse and this situation in particular where the change in leadership came at the same time as they took on an unusual, lengthy and especially dangerous mission. I'd certainly expect my boss to give me a heads up if my job were about to suddenly become much more dangerous, even if it was *already* somewhat dangerous. They're pirates, some risk is expected, but fighting with frost giants is evidently more than a little above their pay grade.

Of course, Bandana didn't know how lengthy or dangerous this mission was going to be. She thought they were going to ferry the OotS to one place and drop them off there. She didn't know the pass was going to be guarded by giants. But from the crew's perspective, at least, knowing these things is another part of her job. A captain is ultimately responsible for the safety of her ship and crew.


Jeezy Petes, ninja'd by Murk again.

[Quild]

But Bandana did explain what they were doing.

How can't you see that the only issue is Andi not recognizing Bandana as a leader? Andi who states "it just happens that all your decisions are wrong, and the other options are right by default."?
Andi who had already started complaining at Bandana right after the storm, which is, before she did anything wrong. I mean, Bandana did:
- Consider that crew's security was a priority
- handle the crisis and put the Order at help
- ask to be called "Captain" and figured out the storm came from Thor
- immediately listen at Andi (without asking again to be called captain) about fixing the Mechane

And as I said, she had the Order pay for it, and then had the crew being paid to compensate the lack of loot, etc...

Bandana did not took bad decisions. Yes, three members of the crew died, but it's not a punishment for bad decisions. It just happened.


@Dune: Bandana didn't change the course of things either. Julio asked her to help the Order right before leaving.

[Mido]

@Murk: I can agree to disagree on that. I'd posit that it's because we have the benefit of hindsight on this. We see things that the characters do not presumably. To Bandana, the way she handled Andi might already seem alright due to the results she perceives but she's unable to see Andi's complete reactions to her actions as we do and thus was unable to put forth any preemptive efforts to allay the building, albeit unstable, tension with Andi and it came to a head (literally?) later on in the form of an unplanned mutiny. But then again, I can only presume with what's presented by the author.

@Dune: I can also agree to disagree on that. Basically, you do acknowledge and agree on the points, you just have a different conclusion, which in my perspective is unavoidable at times with literature (good ones) in general. I'd dare say that that is what people do in book clubs, argue and debate meaning and writer's intent, which speaks volumes for this webcomic. There are some that may argue otherwise, but I do enjoy the writing in OOTS. To think that it evokes questions of morality or accountability in a mishap between NPC's/side characters is, I think, a good indication that the content makes it's reader think.

Although, I'd like to forward my subjective reason why I believe Bandana had done her duty reasonably well. Granted, I do acknowledge as well that her tenure has not been flawless, I'd like to put forward the "Year 1" defense. To clarify, I'd like to put in as a parallel (although not completely an equivalency) the semi-recent Superman movie (with Henry Cavill). It was a reintroduction of the character and I've heard the complaints regarding the mass destruction, the hero doing more damage and less saving. I'd like to point out though that at that instant, it was his first time going up against a force that did challenge him. He was venturing into unknown territory, hence was making mistakes in how he fought his opponents. I can see how the events could turn out that way, him seeming to not care that the battle was happening within the city, but it was not by his intent, at least I don't think so. Does it excuse the mistake? I don't think so either, but it doesn't bode well to harshly indict him for that either, I think. Same thing with Bandana here, first time in this situation (as far as we know), did well, but one fell through the cracks. Perhaps in the future she can be more wary about signs of crew members that may be non-content about the situation or in a position to undermine her. Possibly unfair in a sense, but like I said, captains/leaders get a raw deal most of the time.

In the end, I think it all comes down to a little bit of subjectivity at some point. We all have different thresholds to judge characters on how well they did, and in this case, as mentioned during the start of this reply, I agree to disagree.

If you are also looking for a fresh perspective on what is happening in a literary sense, try to find Frosthead's post at the original #1066 discussion thread. It's a pretty good read in my opinion. It should be somewhere in the page connected to this URL.

[Murk]

But Bandana did explain what they were doing.

How can't you see that the only issue is Andi not recognizing Bandana as a leader? Andi who states "it just happens that all your decisions are wrong, and the other options are right by default."?
Andi who had already started complaining at Bandana right after the storm, which is, before she did anything wrong. I mean, Bandana did:
- Consider that crew's security was a priority
- handle the crisis and put the Order at help
- ask to be called "Captain" and figured out the storm came from Thor
- immediately listen at Andi (without asking again to be called captain) about fixing the Mechane

Because I think that if you are a leader, and you have a very important crew member that does not recognise you as a leader you should work something out before going on a dangerous mission.
Andi does not recognise Bandana's leadership - this makes her (as we have seen) an unreliable crew member in a vital position.
It is very unwise to go save the world with an unreliable head mechanic. Something has to be done about that - before leaving.
It doesn't really matter to me what is done about it: convincing the head mechanic (which seems unlikely in this case), firing the head mechanic, coming to some kind of compromise, zombifying the head mechanic, not going on the dangerous mission - anything that prevents getting stuck in a dangerous situation with an mechanic that refuses to listen.

I can't speak for Dune, but I see Andi as a liability (and she is to be blamed for that), and a good captain anticipates liabilities - I don't blame Bandana for Andi's behaviour, but I do blame Bandana for not handling Andi's behaviour better.

In the end, I think it all comes down to a little bit of subjectivity at some point. We all have different thresholds to judge characters on how well they did, and in this case, as mentioned during the start of this reply, I agree to disagree.

Fair enough. There is a lot of benefit of hindsight, of course, and I doubt I would have done better in Bandana's position, but eh, luckily I'm just a webcomic reader.

[Kish]

Not even one bit? I think it was Bandana who decided to taxi the Order further north to save the world. Andi for one didn't feel up to it. The only reason they are even near these ice giants is because of the Order and Bandana.

(Then again, it was Julio who left Bandana with only one message: give the Order what they want. So, once again: Blame Julio!)

Do you even realize what you're saying? It's Bandana's fault, it says something negative about Bandana, that she's the only member of the crew who cared whether the world kept existing? As the acting captain, she was in the wrong to act on that even after she'd gotten the approval of all of her crew except the whiny disagrees-on-principle-because-you-shouldn't-be-captain engineer?

[hamishspence]

Because I think that if you are a leader, and you have a very important crew member that does not recognise you as a leader you should work something out before going on a dangerous mission.
Andi does not recognise Bandana's leadership - this makes her (as we have seen) an unreliable crew member in a vital position.
It is very unwise to go save the world with an unreliable head mechanic. Something has to be done about that - before leaving.

Andi had demonstrated she was somewhat resentful - but not that she was this unreliable, not till now.

[Quild]

Because I think that if you are a leader, and you have a very important crew member that does not recognise you as a leader you should work something out before going on a dangerous mission.
Andi does not recognise Bandana's leadership - this makes her (as we have seen) an unreliable crew member in a vital position.
It is very unwise to go save the world with an unreliable head mechanic. Something has to be done about that - before leaving.
It doesn't really matter to me what is done about it: convincing the head mechanic (which seems unlikely in this case), firing the head mechanic, coming to some kind of compromise, zombifying the head mechanic, not going on the dangerous mission - anything that prevents getting stuck in a dangerous situation with an mechanic that refuses to listen.

How do you think the rest of the crew would react if Bandana used her temporary authority to fire, zombify (seriously? That's an option?) or put on hold Andi?

Again, again and again, Bandana did try to find compromise. She answered to all of Andi's complains.
Repairing the ship? Done!
Getting money? Done!
Abandon mission? Can't be done!
Turn back? Bad idea, won't do!

After the third one, Andi complained about how she can't wait for the Captain to be back. Fair enough.
The fourth one is in the middle of a crisis.

Bandana is not the reader and couldn't see how the situation was to escalate because of ONE crew member.

In #1028, Bandana says: "I know Captain Scoundrel said I should go wherever y'all want, but he ain't here and I gotta look after my crew's best interests".
She negotiates 200GP per crew member and everyone is happy but Andi. Even the girl with pink hair is happy with while she seems to be the one that supports Andi the most.

Andi is someone Bandana can't discuss with. Kicking her out may have been certain trouble (no more engineer, crew mad about it), keeping her led to something unexpected for Andi and... The rest of the crew obviously.

[Murk]

Andi had demonstrated she was somewhat resentful - but not that she was this unreliable, not till now.

Bandana is not the reader and couldn't see how the situation was to escalate because of ONE crew member.

I think we're walking into a different definition of "to blame" here.

Bandana didn't know that it would work out like this - that's why she did what she did. I'm not arguing that she made the conscious decision to take an unreliable crew member with her. She didn't see any other options (if there even were any, we'll never know), or didn't even know it would be a problem.
I would call this an honest mistake. In hindsight, I think things could have been done better, in a way that would not lead to mutiny.
Could an experienced captain have done it? I don't know. Possibly, but I'm not sure.
Could Bandana have done it? Eh, with the knowledge she had at the time, I don't think so. I think Quild is right that there wasn't really a way she could have prevented making a mess while still taxiing the Order.

For me, that doesn't excuse the fact that she made some less-than-optimal decisions. To me, that means it's partially her fault.

Of course it's mostly Andi's fault, and, as I've argued before, even quite a bit Julio Scoundrels fault. And while we're at it, let's blame the Vampire and the Frost Giants too. Possibly Thor, for throwing lightning at the ship.
Bandana is just one more in a long list of people who didn't do perfectly and, as such, are to blame.

[Unbodied]

Bandana did not took bad decisions. Yes, three members of the crew died, but it's not a punishment for bad decisions. It just happened.

Exactly. As Forest Gump would say "**** happens."

Being able to control every single variable is not the mark of a good leader, its the mark of a caps locked GOD. Bandana did the best she could with the tools she had and minimized the risks and damage to the ship and crew as much as possible while still pursuing the incredibly important mission to prevent them all from being voted out of existence. Some crew members died from that, it sucks but that's just a risk of the job when your occupation is Sky Pirate. Heck that's a risk of the job when you're a freaking construction worker or truck driver. Some jobs can be dangerous.

[hamishspence]

Blame requires more than "not doing perfectly" - it requires an element of outright negligence - an element of foreseeability of the consequences.

"Making less than optimal decisions" only becomes blameworthy when there's an obvious optimal decision that could have been made.

I'm not arguing that she made the conscious decision to take an unreliable crew member with her. She didn't see any other options (if there even were any, we'll never know), or didn't even know it would be a problem.
I would call this an honest mistake.

As a Star Wars EU character put it:


"What is a mistake, Admiral? It is a decision in which one or more of the factors is known to be dangerous, or poisonous, or compromising, but which we calculate will not keep us from achieving our goals. But when there is no foreknowledge of such factor in evidence, can it be called a mistake? If you walk out on an empty field and the ground suddenly gives way beneath you, and there was no way to predict it, was any part of your decision-making a mistake? No."

[Quild]

Ooooh, you just happen to blame people and consider they're at fault while you acknowledge they did the best they could considering the information they had in hand?

Well, with that definition of blaming, yes, it's totally Bandana's fault. But the very firsts answers of the topic covers pretty well what I think of this way of thinking.


I'm sure that if you have played better your own cards, you will be leader of your country and could do a fantastic job about it, bringing world's peace. I totally blame you for not having done that with your life.

[Kish]

Yeah, that's not a useful definition of "to blame." If consistently followed it leads to saying, "Is what's going on ideal? No? Then everyone is to blame!" Which serves no purpose but to shield Andi from well-deserved criticism by obfuscating the fact that, by actually meaningful definitions, Bandana did nothing wrong, Julio did nothing wrong, Andi did significant things wrong.

[nmphuong91]

I have read, but ignored this topic for a long time because it's silly.
Yes, most of the time, new seat of power is shaky. IRL, the most effective way to consolidate your power is...become a brutal tyrant, Tarquin-style. Trust take time to build, fear is instant noodle. Will cause malnutrition in the long run, so a good ruler uses both. (Look at several revolution after they succeed). Especially when your seat of power don't have the backing of a higher power (like a court of martial law in your homeland when your ship belong to the navy).
Tarquin: "But you can't make an omelette without ruthlessly crushing dozens of eggs beneath your steel boot and then publicly disemboweling the chickens that laid them as a warning to others. "
So, the only way this scenerio can be avoided is by bitch-slap Andi at the first chance, whip her, chain her to the mast....But then again, we would have another topic named "Bandana is so evil", so I guess people bitching about Bandana is an unavoidable fate.

[Dune]

@Dune: I can also agree to disagree on that. Basically, you do acknowledge and agree on the points, you just have a different conclusion, which in my perspective is unavoidable at times with literature (good ones) in general. I'd dare say that that is what people do in book clubs, argue and debate meaning and writer's intent, which speaks volumes for this webcomic.

I agree! That's how I see this forum. And I'll be honest; I have no friggin' idea what Rich's intentions are here, whether this is supposed to be completely one-sided, or whether his intention was to subtly portray Bandana as a talented -- but inexperienced and somewhat overarrogant -- captain. I'm sure that'll be made clear in the strips to come, or in the commentary in the eventual book.

Also, I'm not trying to imply that she's been absolute trash as captain so far. I said she was flunking 50% of the job, but the flip side of that is, she's pretty aces at the other 50%. She's kept her head in several crises and all her decisions have been the correct ones. My official review would be, "Great strategist, poor communicator. Promising but needs improvement."

How do you think the rest of the crew would react if Bandana used her temporary authority to fire, zombify (seriously? That's an option?) or put on hold Andi? [...]

Bandana is not the reader and couldn't see how the situation was to escalate because of ONE crew member.

In my opinion (all this is of course just my opinion), the moment were Bandana should have taken action was right after Andi's "Ugh, I can't wait until the Captain gets back" remark. Taken not in isolation but in context with the rest of her kvetching during that exchange, it was worth more than a "simmer down."

I'll put my money where my mouth is and say what I think Bandana should have done differently. She should have sat Andi down in private after that remark, and had a Very Serious Talk, the gist of which to be, "Look, you've been chafing at my authority for days and you're clearly deeply unhappy under my command. Let's get it out into the open. I want to hear your complaints right now, and I promise to listen to them. But understand that I may still decide otherwise, and like it or not, I'm still the captain and there's no place for that kind of insubordination on my ship, ever."

Depending on how that went, I'd suggest this would've been the optimal time to hit her with, "Yeah, about thirty minutes ago the gods were literally one vote away from destroying the world. I know the crew doesn't take the whole apocalypse thing very seriously anymore, but this time it's actually happening. If you want to leave, I won't stop you, but if we don't get these guys to where they need to go, there won't be any ship for you to fix anymore -- or any 'you' to fix it. We're going into treacherous terrain and we might really need our head engineer."

It's sensible not to tell the entire crew that kind of thing in some big speech, but it really doesn't need to be a state secret. That cat's already out of the bag.

edit:

So, the only way this scenerio can be avoided is by bitch-slap Andi at the first chance, whip her, chain her to the mast....

For a good leader, there are many, many ways to get people on your side, even recalcitrant people (Very Serious Talks are just one way, it just happens to be the way I favor). Physical discipline is just one way of many and always the last resort.

edit edit:
I just reread a few of my posts and it was a slightly surreal experience. Believe it or not, I'm not usually this serious when talking about the exploits of fictional DnD stick figures! If I'd known the discussion would turn out this intense, I can't say I'd have posted it.