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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    HalflingRogueGuy

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    Default Re: How Do I Have Consequences for Murderhoboism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pugwampy View Post
    I dont like heroes switching sides and then forcing other players to do so because of all for one and one for all . They try to steal something but get caught , then they try to kill the witnesses ? Uncool dude .

    Pick a side at the start of the campaign not because you are bored or want some fun in the middle of it or think i am going too easy .
    I got the impression from the OP and their subsequent posts, that the players haven't ever been trying to be heroes.

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    SolithKnightGuy

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    Default Re: How Do I Have Consequences for Murderhoboism?

    Quote Originally Posted by veti View Post
    When the party comes to a large town or city - then they run into the full military might of the local civilisation, whatever that might be. Not just the 20th level general, but also several 15th level officers, and literally hundreds of grunts to back them up. Depending on the local culture they may try to arrest or capture, but if that fails (or the party resists) they'll be fighting to kill. And they'll have had time to prepare, so break out your very best traps and tactics.
    This. There are plenty of low level spells which are a threat to even high level characters when used en masse.

    If you're playing 3.5 - the various Orb spells come to mind, especially with a mid level bard buffing them for extra accuracy & damage. Heck - unless the PCs have Spell Resistance or Shield currently up, a few dozen casters with Magic Missile should shred them. 4 dozen level 3 casters will chuck out an average of 336 points per round in Magic Missile damage.

    If the city knows they're coming - they could have their mage guild hiding in the town wall looking out arrow slits - all readying actions for a signal.

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: How Do I Have Consequences for Murderhoboism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gizmogidget View Post
    But if Dave the Murderhobo 14th level Barbarian and his buddies come to town, ordinary guards ain't gonna cut it. However it feels cheap to have 20th level paladins appear out of the woodwork. So how should I demonstrate that doing crazy things can lead to consequences without creating ridiculous worlds in which a tiny village has 10th level fighter cops?
    A lot of this depends on your game world, but usually, if they go around murderhoboing their way through life, sooner or later word will spread about those murderhobos and at some point, some authority will hear about it. Yeah, your normal city guard won't cut it, but if King Rex the Kingly hears about the group of homicidal maniacs rampaging through his kingdom, he will do something to stop them, and the people he will send will most likely not be Level 1 commoners...

    I'd recommend not just letting them run into some high level NPCs out of thin air, that would feel unfair. But let them know they've been noticed, people bar their doors when they see them approaching (even without tv and cameras, most adventuring groups aren't exactly low profile and can be recognized easily from description), they can hear that the king has put a price on their head or that the local high cleric has sent for a paladin to rid the land of evildoers, and so on. If they keep on doing what they do without precautions, then you drop the 20th level Paladin and his retinue on them, they've had ample warning, after all.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: How Do I Have Consequences for Murderhoboism?

    Just to add to all the good advice so far, another way to think about it is this: How do you think the modern world would react to high-level adventurers (or superheroes/villains of equivalent power) who don't kowtow to civilized mores?

    On the lower end, think of Old West towns ravaged by Black Bart or other equivalents. They live in fear of him. He swaggers around like a minor king, because the local law can't touch him. It simply lacks the power. Or look to 7 Samurai (or its Western retelling, Fistfull of Dollars), where the bandits essentially replace the local lord because the lord is not doing anything about them (or can't), and the people have to find somebody to help them.

    Now scale up the bandits to be super-beings. Able to shrug off mortal weapons for long periods of time. Able to level buildings with a word.

    Even in the modern era, the cops would eventually run into morale problems of their own; how often do you fling wave after wave men and materiel at the unstoppable monster before you just turn your efforts towards evacuation?

    Let them walk in and own the bar. Assuming the bar patrons didn't hear they were coming and LEAVE, along (perhaps) with the barkeeper, who just hopes they don't wreck his establishment too badly while he's gone.

    Big enough threats will go from police to SWAT to the National Guard. If THAT fails, the FBI will team up with them. If THAT isn't enough, Congress might write special laws to allow full military intervention.

    In a Kingdom, that last step isn't needed, as the King can already bring his full military force to bear anywhere in his Kingdom he wants. As long as the cost is worth it. So, are they a threat to the king? Can he find a better way to deal with them than using his full army?

    And yes, by the time you even get to Fistful of Dollars/Seven Samurai levels, the PCs have become the quest impetus for a mysterious old man to hire other adventurers to deal with. "These monsters are terrorizing towns all across the East; Smalltown is next, and we will pay you to take them out before they get to us."

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    SolithKnightGuy

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    Default Re: How Do I Have Consequences for Murderhoboism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    On the lower end, think of Old West towns ravaged by Black Bart or other equivalents. They live in fear of him. He swaggers around like a minor king, because the local law can't touch him. It simply lacks the power. Or look to 7 Samurai (or its Western retelling, Fistfull of Dollars), where the bandits essentially replace the local lord because the lord is not doing anything about them (or can't), and the people have to find somebody to help them.
    Not an old west fan? :P

    Black Bard (despite the name) was actually known as a gentlemanly bandit. He was famous because he spoke poetry etc - and from what I understand he didn't even load his pistol when robbing people. And unlike some - he made sure to wear a mask.

    Plus - I'm pretty sure that the western remake of The 7 Samurai was The Magnificent Seven. (I haven't seen the recent remake - but the original was pretty good.)

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: How Do I Have Consequences for Murderhoboism?

    Quote Originally Posted by CharonsHelper View Post
    Not an old west fan? :P
    Decidedly not, actually. I have rarely found a Western that didn't irritate and bore me. Sorry for my mislabelings due to that. (I'm a sci-fi fan, and I can't get past the Western trappings of Firefly enough to enjoy it, even. I literally was bored to sleep by the first three episodes of it.)

    Quote Originally Posted by CharonsHelper View Post
    Black Bard (despite the name) was actually known as a gentlemanly bandit. He was famous because he spoke poetry etc - and from what I understand he didn't even load his pistol when robbing people. And unlike some - he made sure to wear a mask.
    Ah. I stand corrected. That's interesting to know.

    Jesse James had a similar "good PR" thing going for him in the Missouri area; what brought him down was that he thought it would be universal, and it wasn't, so when he took his show to another part of the country, he found that the authorities actually had the common folk on their side, and he was swiftly hunted down with no safe havens. (I forget if he managed to high-tail it back to MO, or if he was caught.)

    Quote Originally Posted by CharonsHelper View Post
    Plus - I'm pretty sure that the western remake of The 7 Samurai was The Magnificent Seven. (I haven't seen the recent remake - but the original was pretty good.)
    Gah, you're right, and I did know that. I just brain farted. Thanks for the correction.

  7. - Top - End - #37

    Default Re: How Do I Have Consequences for Murderhoboism?

    Quote Originally Posted by CharonsHelper View Post
    This. There are plenty of low level spells which are a threat to even high level characters when used en masse.

    If you're playing 3.5 - the various Orb spells come to mind, especially with a mid level bard buffing them for extra accuracy & damage. Heck - unless the PCs have Spell Resistance or Shield currently up, a few dozen casters with Magic Missile should shred them. 4 dozen level 3 casters will chuck out an average of 336 points per round in Magic Missile damage.

    If the city knows they're coming - they could have their mage guild hiding in the town wall looking out arrow slits - all readying actions for a signal.
    I'm suddenly reminded of the time when the barbarian was rampaging through the wizard school kicking open doors and shouting and hitting people with a greataxe.

    And then he kicked open the door to the mess hall where the 100 terrified 1st level mages were who had all readied their CL 1 magic missile were cowering.

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    SolithKnightGuy

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    Default Re: How Do I Have Consequences for Murderhoboism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Koo Rehtorb View Post
    I'm suddenly reminded of the time when the barbarian was rampaging through the wizard school kicking open doors and shouting and hitting people with a greataxe.

    And then he kicked open the door to the mess hall where the 100 terrified 1st level mages were who had all readied their CL 1 magic missile were cowering.
    Unless he's got SR or just drank a Shield potion - that's one less murderhobo in the world.

    I don't think that many barbarians have over 350 HP.
    Last edited by CharonsHelper; 2017-02-24 at 11:51 AM.

  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: How Do I Have Consequences for Murderhoboism?

    I figure you have your response, but I'll throw in my two cents anyway:

    The level 14 barbarian comes from this world that s/he's dominating. They became this way because they killed enough low level stuff that they leveled up. There's a certain "rule of exceptionalism" that comes into play.

    Superman didn't become a cheap all-powerful superhero by defeating enough bad guys; Superman was born that way. This means a few things can be true.

    1 - your level 14 barbarian is "Superman" or the evil equivalent. Introduce other superheroes, because evidently you live in a world where it's rare to become this. Superman has no story without General Zod or Lex Luthor or Batman. Superman can be killed. If the level 14 barbarian is cheap, the world should be too. This takes away some agency, but your player has already broken the game by becoming a "giant in the playground" (had to).

    2 - your level 14 barbarian is common. Throw in level 10 guards, level 15 bandits, level 18 farmers with vorpal gardening sheers. This shatters agency and turns the game into one big grind, and it removes a lot of the suspension of disbelief that the villagers would magically end up rich & powerful, despite tons of game rules saying they can't be. But hey, your barbarian already broke reality by being level 14 and being a murderhobo.

    3 - your level 14 barbarian is exceptional, but not unique. This is probably the most player-agency supporting option, but it's one that troubles me. If your level 14 murderhobo is yet another wandering monster, how on earth are there farmers? How is it that someone can plow a field, when there's an adult dragon that flies by occasionally and attacks travelers on the road like a level 14 barbarian? Is there a local college of liches, and a government subsidy to breed trolls, ogres, and giants? This takes away that grounded immersive realism you'd find in (earlier) "A Song of Ice and Fire," which can turn your tabletop game into world of warcraft or final fantasy in a hurry. But if your players are murderhobos, they can have yet another run in with Shinra on their way to fighting off Sephiroth, and treat every town like a place to buy potions and sell their vendor trash to nameless inhabitants.

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Default Re: How Do I Have Consequences for Murderhoboism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gizmogidget View Post
    In response to the villagers pooling resources I am not sure that will work, because even the good guys are largely selfish too (i run a grim and gritty swords and sorcery world).
    Doesn't seem like there's a problem then.

    Quote Originally Posted by CharonsHelper View Post
    Plus - I'm pretty sure that the western remake of The 7 Samurai was The Magnificent Seven. (I haven't seen the recent remake - but the original was pretty good.)
    A Fistful of Dollars is the remake of Yojimbo. Another Akira Kurosawa samurai movie with Toshiro Mifune.
    Last edited by Yora; 2017-02-24 at 01:52 PM.
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  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Default Re: How Do I Have Consequences for Murderhoboism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mai View Post
    Assuming this isn't killing your fun and ruining the mood for you, and your aim is to merely give them realistic IC repercussions to IC deeds, here is my suggestion. I am new to DMing, still working up to my first campaign. So feel free to ignore a newbie's input.

    Inform them out of character that this may effect their characters alignment. Have a small talk and just say "hey... Your performing a lot of evil deeds keep this up and your character's alignments will shift." If we are talking about justifiable murder... Which I doubt based on what you said, then... No real need. Either way, I'd follow all the above's advice. Slowly ramp up the tension and fear in the common man. Even if they were justifiable, Joe the butcher and Jane the farmer don't know that. (Probably)

    If they ignore your warning, tweak their alignments. Rando-murdering people sounds pretty chaotic evil if you ask me. And if any of them have classes that are alignment restricted.. Well they are going to loose some real power. Random good diety-sn't going to be likely to keep giving divine powers and whatnot to murderers. So maintaining thier powers may mean that as they slowly descend into evil thief views became more similar to -random evil diety- and they now worship him/her/them/etc (It sounds like this has beengoingon for a while, so clearly you could say if they keep it up after the warning that they've been slipping this whole time.)

    At which point you now have a campaign against the questing paladins and such. Doing this is fair. You aren't punishing them, you are merely enforcing the laws of your world. They knew that going in, and if not, certainly did after your warning.
    Yes it is rather fun, and they are all perfectly okay with having evil as their character alignment. In fact they used to play exclusively good characters before it got boring for them.

    Edit: Forgot to finish post, the main issue at hand for me isn't the murderhoboism or the evilness it is how do I justify things. Most of the time I imagine that characters levels 1-4 make up 1% of the population, 5-10 0.01% of the population 11-16 0.0001% of the population and finally 17+ 0.000001% of the population. And the players aren't dumb either, they have several back up plans just in case including but not limited to a fortress of ingenious design that exists on the Astral Plane. They also have several people in their employ, so it isn't just them it's them and an army. At this point they are a world power, and it feels like it is only going to get worse. What about when they reach epic status, do I tell them that now armies of 17th level characters come after them?

    By they way I like the reverse-psychology suggestion, I might consider trying that.
    Last edited by Gizmogidget; 2017-02-24 at 02:13 PM.

  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Default Re: How Do I Have Consequences for Murderhoboism?

    If they have an actual army and fortress themselves, especially one in another plane, then they're basically untouchable by mortal kings. You may need to think in terms of politics or extraplanar powers to get appropriate challenges.

    By the sounds of it they like conflict, discord and battle, so you could have a fiend come and offer them a chance to help fight the Blood War, the immense and perpetual battle between devils and demons either in one of it's proxies or one of the actual battles in the lower planes.

    They're incredibly powerful individually by this point, and can access places fiends normally have trouble reaching, slay generals and commanders of the lower planes with some difficulty and slaughter hordes of lesser fiends.

    With the patronage of a powerful lord or the lower planes they could even become strong enough through such a war to disrupt the natural balance of the planes, and possibly help one side achieve some great and climactic victory over the other, such as leading demons to seize the first layer of Hell from the devils, or helping the devils form a great bastion in the Abyss.

    Once that's done, and the basic battlefield of the Blood War is changed, there's less stopping the side they aided from looking to the other planes with thoughts of dominion and war.
    Sanity is nice to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there.

  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Default Re: How Do I Have Consequences for Murderhoboism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grim Portent View Post
    If they have an actual army and fortress themselves, especially one in another plane, then they're basically untouchable by mortal kings. You may need to think in terms of politics or extraplanar powers to get appropriate challenges.
    For anything a PC is able to do, generally assume extant NPCs capable of doing the same.

    "PCs can be exceptional." should not be taken as equivalent to "PCs are unique".
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    Default Re: How Do I Have Consequences for Murderhoboism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    For anything a PC is able to do, generally assume extant NPCs capable of doing the same.

    "PCs can be exceptional." should not be taken as equivalent to "PCs are unique".
    The OPs post above mine said the PCs are in a level range occupied by 1 person in 10,000, and they're close to the 1 in 1,000,000 range. That's not many people who can threaten them, and most of them will probably not be kings, because kings don't do anything much with themselves that a peasant doesn't, a lot of them will live very far away, a lot of them won't even be civilised races, but monsters instead, and a big chunk of the remainder will themselves be evil and not care.

    Their immediate area, as in several weeks ride in any direction, probably contains only about 6 people who pose a threat to them by class level. The likelihood of those people knowing each other, obeying the king, not being monsters like orcs, goblins or kobolds in the first place, of a healthy age, not crippled by prior injuries, not being selfish evil unwilling to risk death against them and all the other things they'd need to be both a threat and willing to fight the party strikes me as realistically being rather low.
    Sanity is nice to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there.

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    Default Re: How Do I Have Consequences for Murderhoboism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grim Portent View Post
    The OPs post above mine said the PCs are in a level range occupied by 1 person in 10,000, and they're close to the 1 in 1,000,000 range. That's not many people who can threaten them, and most of them will probably not be kings, because kings don't do anything much with themselves that a peasant doesn't, a lot of them will live very far away, a lot of them won't even be civilised races, but monsters instead, and a big chunk of the remainder will themselves be evil and not care.

    Their immediate area, as in several weeks ride in any direction, probably contains only about 6 people who pose a threat to them by class level. The likelihood of those people knowing each other, obeying the king, not being monsters like orcs, goblins or kobolds in the first place, of a healthy age, not crippled by prior injuries, not being selfish evil unwilling to risk death against them and all the other things they'd need to be both a threat and willing to fight the party strikes me as realistically being rather low.

    So the setting is broken. Got it.
    It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.

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    Default Re: How Do I Have Consequences for Murderhoboism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    So the setting is broken. Got it.
    High powered warlords in the prime of their youth being rare is the setting being broken?
    Sanity is nice to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there.

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    Default Re: How Do I Have Consequences for Murderhoboism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grim Portent View Post
    High powered warlords in the prime of their youth being rare is the setting being broken?
    As rare as indicated, and giving them the sort of edge in power over anything that might challenge their rampage? Yes, it is broken.
    It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.

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    The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.

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  18. - Top - End - #48
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    Default Re: How Do I Have Consequences for Murderhoboism?

    It's not broken, it just changes the situation. Instead of "You are some outlaws that need to stay under the radar.", it's "You are a significant power in the world - now what do you do with that?"

    Think of the PCs as a very small, but powerful (especially for their size) and mobile kingdom. So what kind of situations can they encounter? Lots of things!
    * Other kingdoms may go to war with them, or threaten to.
    * Other kingdoms may want to ally with them.
    * People or other creatures may show up and want to join them.
    * Various organizations will spy on them and/or try to steer them in certain directions.
    * Some villages will offer to surrender and become part of their empire when they show up. Do they accept?
    * Assassins, definitely assassins. Even if they're lower level than the PCs, they can still be a menace.
    Last edited by icefractal; 2017-02-24 at 04:31 PM.

  19. - Top - End - #49
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    Default Re: How Do I Have Consequences for Murderhoboism?

    You appear to be at the natural end of this campaign, with players having reached near the maximum level: they "win". Give them something to do that challenges them, or end the campaign and start a new one.

    They are all-powerful evil characters, they can do almost anything they want - ask them what their long-term goals for the future of these characters is - do they want to be the tyrannical rulers of a kingdom, or multiple kingdoms? Do they want to just continue wandering and looting whatever they feel like, like invincible Bandit-kings? Whatever they were wanting for the characters, make that the status-quo for the beginning of the next campaign, make those guys NPCs, and start with new characters at level 1.

    Do they want to become gods? let them start adventuring on other planes, start exploring multi-dimensions or something, where impossibly powerful creatures and characters are more common, and give them a challenge to shoot for. IN other words, design a new setting appropriate for these characters.

    So there's two options. Start a new campaign with new characters appropriate for the setting, or create/expand the setting so it is appropriate for the high level characters.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    As rare as indicated, and giving them the sort of edge in power over anything that might challenge their rampage? Yes, it is broken.
    I'd personally say it makes far more sense than the alternative, because the alternative is that the entire world is filled with people who can tank a charging rhino to the chest, outwrestle ogres and slay dragons, not to mention what it implies for the amount of conflict going on to get that many high level people in the prime of their youth.

    Honestly I'd have high levels be even rarer than the OP does, with 10+ being one in a million, so a country the size of medieval England would have about 3 people of that power, with things like dragons being similarly rare and relying on their sheer unquestionable power to dominate the land on the rare occasion they can be bothered to do so. Level 10+ is basically Beowulf or Merlin in power level as far as folkloric traditions go, and unless you're going for a Greek style 'the gods have sired 50 heroes in the last month while disguised as a breakfast muffin' type scenario such individuals should be so rare that most people believe them to legend.

    It also means that when the PCs decide to press into politics and beyond they aren't squabbling with other high level sellswords inexplicably working for a level 3 Count, but rather ancient beings of power and prophecy. I'd rather the players fight the realms equivalent of King Arthur or the Marble Emperor and their hosts of otherworldly warriors than fight contemporaries who are inexplicably equal to them in power despite dangers to the land being rare enough that humans can survive at all.
    Sanity is nice to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there.

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    Default Re: How Do I Have Consequences for Murderhoboism?

    Do consequences have to show up immediately? I admit it's tough when the PCs can threaten most people with grievous bodily harm and charm anyone who they can't threaten, but if you do to much of that then eventually you become the kind of people that get bounties placed on their heads and other people get hired to hunt down.

    Also, people (aka the plot) can inconvenience a party in a dozen little ways if they don't like them (and vice-versa, help them if they are in good standing). Forget to mention that the pass the party is planning to travel through has been shut down by an avalanche. Underestimate the number of orcs in the area. Tell them you're out of stock of healing potions, etc. You just gotta get creative.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
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    Default Re: How Do I Have Consequences for Murderhoboism?

    Many think in terms of good versus evil,but evil also fights evil and good, good. Powerdull greedy forces out there could crave the renown and power they would gain from taking them down.

    Sucessfull evil can make other evil greedy for their power and wealth. Like 2 organized crime groups, when one flourished they gather the attention of the other, or several street gangs duking it out for power or territory.

    Sure some evil forces may seek them out and ally themselves with them,but others might see the players as growing threats and decide to take action against them. If they get stuck being attacked by both fronts things could get fun.

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    Default Re: How Do I Have Consequences for Murderhoboism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mai View Post
    Sucessfull evil can make other evil greedy for their power and wealth. Like 2 organized crime groups, when one flourished they gather the attention of the other, or several street gangs duking it out for power or territory.
    Yeah that's a good point- one of the biggest explanations for how good and evil balance out in my setting is that while good has a lot more things it won't do, evil tends to be much less cooperative.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
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    Default Re: How Do I Have Consequences for Murderhoboism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grim Portent View Post
    I'd personally say it makes far more sense than the alternative, because the alternative is that the entire world is filled with people who can tank a charging rhino to the chest, outwrestle ogres and slay dragons, not to mention what it implies for the amount of conflict going on to get that many high level people in the prime of their youth.

    Honestly I'd have high levels be even rarer than the OP does, with 10+ being one in a million, so a country the size of medieval England would have about 3 people of that power, with things like dragons being similarly rare and relying on their sheer unquestionable power to dominate the land on the rare occasion they can be bothered to do so. Level 10+ is basically Beowulf or Merlin in power level as far as folkloric traditions go, and unless you're going for a Greek style 'the gods have sired 50 heroes in the last month while disguised as a breakfast muffin' type scenario such individuals should be so rare that most people believe them to legend.

    It also means that when the PCs decide to press into politics and beyond they aren't squabbling with other high level sellswords inexplicably working for a level 3 Count, but rather ancient beings of power and prophecy. I'd rather the players fight the realms equivalent of King Arthur or the Marble Emperor and their hosts of otherworldly warriors than fight contemporaries who are inexplicably equal to them in power despite dangers to the land being rare enough that humans can survive at all.
    Welcome to level-based minion-to-godling character progression. There's no way to have it all at once... something WILL be broken.

    BUT, I always take this tact with these sorts of things: if the PCs can do it, so can other characters.

    .
    Last edited by Max_Killjoy; 2017-02-24 at 05:19 PM.
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  25. - Top - End - #55
    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: How Do I Have Consequences for Murderhoboism?

    Obviously, they can conquer and pillage the entire village. It won't even be hard. But when they start, make it clear to them what they are starting.

    Tell the players in advance. Explain what effects this kind of action can have. Don't hold back. There should be no "gotcha" moment when suddenly things happen they never considered possibilities.

    "Hold it. Are you really planning to murder the blacksmith because you don't like his prices? You've decided to become villains? OK, you can certainly do that. If that's your decision, change your alignments to evil, and we'll have to stop here for today. I have some re-writing to do, since I made the campaign for heroes. Obviously, you can pillage and destroy this entire village if you decide to. Nobody here can stop you, and there's no adventure involved, so we won't waste time on details. Just tell me how many innocents you plan to murder, how many homes you plan to destroy, how many people you plan to terrorize or enslave, and how many businesses you plan to burn. You will succeed at all of it, and get no experience points, since these are simple villagers. If you level the entire village, you can collect roughly 200 gp in value, distributed as 19,000 copper pieces and 100 silver pieces. You can take all the food you can carry, any amount of poor quality peasant tools, and not much else. Do you plan to guard the roads and keep any survivors from escaping to tell the king of the new bandits in his lands? Also, the cleric isn't given spells by his Lawful Good god any more."

    And then don't back down. Keep telling them, over and over again until they believe it, that murder and pillage aren't a one-time-only vacation for nice people who go back to being heroes the next day.

  26. - Top - End - #56
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: How Do I Have Consequences for Murderhoboism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay R View Post
    Obviously, they can conquer and pillage the entire village. It won't even be hard. But when they start, make it clear to them what they are starting.

    Tell the players in advance. Explain what effects this kind of action can have. Don't hold back. There should be no "gotcha" moment when suddenly things happen they never considered possibilities.

    "Hold it. Are you really planning to murder the blacksmith because you don't like his prices? You've decided to become villains? OK, you can certainly do that. If that's your decision, change your alignments to evil, and we'll have to stop here for today. I have some re-writing to do, since I made the campaign for heroes. Obviously, you can pillage and destroy this entire village if you decide to. Nobody here can stop you, and there's no adventure involved, so we won't waste time on details. Just tell me how many innocents you plan to murder, how many homes you plan to destroy, how many people you plan to terrorize or enslave, and how many businesses you plan to burn. You will succeed at all of it, and get no experience points, since these are simple villagers. If you level the entire village, you can collect roughly 200 gp in value, distributed as 19,000 copper pieces and 100 silver pieces. You can take all the food you can carry, any amount of poor quality peasant tools, and not much else. Do you plan to guard the roads and keep any survivors from escaping to tell the king of the new bandits in his lands? Also, the cleric isn't given spells by his Lawful Good god any more."

    And then don't back down. Keep telling them, over and over again until they believe it, that murder and pillage aren't a one-time-only vacation for nice people who go back to being heroes the next day.
    Exactly, though it sounds too late for this, you can get the feel across.

  27. - Top - End - #57
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    Default Re: How Do I Have Consequences for Murderhoboism?

    Note that this is a crucial part of the plan:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay R View Post
    Just tell me how many innocents you plan to murder, how many homes you plan to destroy, how many people you plan to terrorize or enslave, and how many businesses you plan to burn. You will succeed at all of it, and get no experience points, since these are simple villagers.
    We're not going to play it out, so it won't be fun for them to do.

  28. - Top - End - #58
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    Default Re: How Do I Have Consequences for Murderhoboism?

    Enjoy the suggestion about the blood war, but is there a way to run the game like this without it becoming tedious?

    I kind of imagine that if I do it incorrectly it could be immensely boring. Like if I have to roll to attack for every single balor or dretch or ghoul etc on the battlefield, combats with 15 participants is bad enough, but near infinite seems to be a problem.

    I have also heard people say that my problems are inherent of the D&D system in and of itself, what systems would you recommend to address the progression from characters who can get killed by a housecat, to characters who can conquer worlds on a whim while reading a book?

  29. - Top - End - #59
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    Default Re: How Do I Have Consequences for Murderhoboism?

    I found this amusing.

    But it's starting to sound like your party is in the Xykon range. Have a goblin ask them to get involved in a world domination scheme if you don't want them to continue their random rampages.
    Last edited by Kish; 2017-02-24 at 06:13 PM.

  30. - Top - End - #60
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    Default Re: How Do I Have Consequences for Murderhoboism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gizmogidget View Post
    Enjoy the suggestion about the blood war, but is there a way to run the game like this without it becoming tedious?
    Some of that comes down to the players- you should discuss what sort of game they are expecting and what sort of game you want to run before everyone sits down to the first game session. If you group wants to act like bulls in a china shop, design at gameworld (or at least a campaign) that lets them. If all else fails, shunt them into an alternate dimension for a while where none of their murderhoboing matters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    I found this amusing.
    That is amusing, but the root cause is a failure in communication between the DM and the players. If the world you want to run isn't the world your players want to run in, then something has to change, and if you insist on trying to force round players into square campaigns, everyone is gonna have a bad time.
    Last edited by Deepbluediver; 2017-02-24 at 06:28 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
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