Let's Read The Monster Manual II: Fantastic Beasts and Where to Fight Them

[the_brazenburn]

Does anybody plan to do the lycans? I'll do the werewolf or whatever if nobody else wants to.

[Unoriginal]

A problem with krakens is that people don't take them seriously. I once had a group of adventurers sneak into a kraken's lair to retrieve a powerful item, but as soon as they heard what the kraken was, they would not stop shouting "Calamari!" at the top of their lungs, bringing 20 pounds of butter and lemons into the lair with them, and basically causing a riot. The objective was to sneak past it, since they were far too low level to actually fight it, but they were being so annoying that I allowed them to attack it. They barely damaged it on their turns, then it woke up and smashed their ship into tiny pieces. The nerve.

If someone don't take a titanic monster seriously, the problem is with this someone, not with the monster.

Does anybody plan to do the lycans? I'll do the werewolf or whatever if nobody else wants to.

Might want to wait for the other entries to catch up to Lycanthropes before seeing if nobody wants it.

[Squeeq]

Would we do one entry for Kuo Toa as a group, or one PER block? I think one per block for this kind of monster is a bit excessive, but I also don't want to triple dip.

[Regitnui]

We did one for Drow, goblin, hobgoblin, and all the others thus far. One entry, one monster.

[the_brazenburn]

What about the lycans? You did the giants separately, should we do different reviews for each lycanthrope?

[M Placeholder]

Would we do one entry for Kuo Toa as a group, or one PER block? I think one per block for this kind of monster is a bit excessive, but I also don't want to triple dip.

I'll have the Kuo Toa up for tomorrow.

And the Kraken looks incredible (in both the sense that its great and the monster is hard to get your head around). Cephalopods are some of my fave animals and while I do love the straight up squidlike Kraken, the one in the 5e MM is a thing of beauty.

[DerKommissar]

What about the lycans? You did the giants separately, should we do different reviews for each lycanthrope?

Well I‘d rather propose a subsection for each type in the same entry - not sure how different they are from each other (besides stats and appearances)

[Requilac]

While Looking at the Kraken stat-block i began to wonder about something. This monster seems like a perfect representation of some creature from the cthulhu mythos. I do not quite quite think it would make a good cthulhu itself (as I imagined him/it as being much stronger) but perhaps it could be used as a shoggoth or something of the like? Gods do not really have stats in 5e and the Great Old Ones are technically gods so I am pretty sure they would be well beyond even a high level adventurer’s skill level. I do not really think there is a scale on which to balance the power of a mythos creature on though because I do not recall anyone really getting into a physical fight with one in any of the books Lovecraft wrote. They have been banished sure, but actually fought? The spawn of Yog Shothoth in the Dunwich Horror did not strike me as very tough though and if IRC then the more humanoid one was killed by a mundane dog, but I can not think of any other examples. Well, anyhow, has anyone tried to (or is planning to) use the Kraken to represent anything from the cthulhu mythos? And if so, what creature?

[Unoriginal]

This monster seems like a perfect representation of some creature from the cthulhu mythos.

Not really, no.

I do not quite quite think it would make a good cthulhu itself (as I imagined him/it as being much stronger) but perhaps it could be used as a shoggoth or something of the like?

It's too big, too smart and too powerful to be a shoggoth.

Gods do not really have stats in 5e

Well, we've seen Tiamat's.

and the Great Old Ones are technically gods so I am pretty sure they would be well beyond even a high level adventurer’s skill level.

Neither Lovecraft's Great Old Ones D&D Great Old Ones (who are different) are gods, technically speaking.

I do not really think there is a scale on which to balance the power of a mythos creature on though because I do not recall anyone really getting into a physical fight with one in any of the books Lovecraft wrote. They have been banished sure, but actually fought? The spawn of Yog Shothoth in the Dunwich Horror did not strike me as very tough though and if IRC then the more humanoid one was killed by a mundane dog, but I can not think of any other examples.

Some of the lesser aliens got fought, sometime. As well as a few of the Deep Ones and other twisted humans, arguably.

Chtulhu got defeated by someone ramming a boat in his head.

Well, anyhow, has anyone tried to (or is planning to) use the Kraken to represent anything from the cthulhu mythos? And if so, what creature?

Can't say I have, but the Kraken's not tied to the Far Realm (which is the closest D&D has of Cthulhu mythos, even if it's pretty different), so I'd say people would probably not use them unless they really need stats for a huge monster with tentacles ASAP.


Sorry if I sound harsh, it's not my intention at all.

[ShikomeKidoMi]

Not really, no.

Eh, some of the lesser 'big horrors' might work. Especially if you toned down the intelligence. Not a Shoggoth, though. Like "Star Spawn of Cthulhu" or even some kind of Elder Flying Polyp (who do have elemental air powers) if you switched the Swim Speed for Fly speed. Okay, that last one might be a bit of a stretch.


You're right, of course, that the Great Old Ones are generally more like demigods than full gods (that description should be reserved for the Outer Gods, as I remember one Sorcerer lamenting).

Cthulhu got mildly inconvenienced by a boat ramming his head. He got defeated by the stars not being truly right, so he had to go back to sleep.

Can't say I have, but the Kraken's not tied to the Far Realm (which is the closest D&D has of Cthulhu mythos, even if it's pretty different), so I'd say people would probably not use them unless they really need stats for a huge monster with tentacles ASAP.

Sometimes that's exactly what you need. 5th Edition does put more emphasis in it's books on reskinning things, so while I think the Kraken works perfectly well as written, I can see people adapting it when they need a giant monster quick.

[Requilac]

It's too big, too smart and too powerful to be a shoggoth.

Okay, the Kraken is much smarter than a shoggoth. I will concede to that, but I do not think it is any larger or more powerful. I could be wrong, but when I read at the mountains of madness and the shadow over inssmouth I imagined them as decently big and powerful. Certainly of gargantuan size and deserving of a high CR. But I do not think I have solid proof for that, they might have got more fleshed out in a different book of his, but from the knowledge I have a shoggoth could very well be as massive and strong as a Kraken. They did not explain in depth just how big and powerful it is

Well, we've seen Tiamat's.

They did? I have not played HotDQ so I did not know that. What CR was Tiamat?

Neither Lovecraft's Great Old Ones D&D Great Old Ones (who are different) are gods, technically speaking.

Are you sure? In the dream quest of unknown kadath the marvelous city was referred to as “a fever of the gods”, Carter claimed that he was removed from the city by “dream’s tyrannous gods”, he also prayed to “the hidden gods of dream... but the gods made no answer” and Carter “resolved to find the gods of unknown kadath”. Perhaps Lovecraft actually could have been referring to the Other Gods when he said this or was using the term “god” in a metaphorical way, but to me it seemed pretty clear that the Great Old Ones were gods. Perhaps I was taking things too literally though...

Note: please no spoilers from Dream Quest, I am currently in the process of reading it.
Side note: The cats of Ulthar are really metal. I mean cthulhu is scary and all, but they have nothing on those nightmare beasts.

Some of the lesser aliens got fought, sometime. As well as a few of the Deep Ones and other twisted humans, arguably.

Chtulhu got defeated by someone ramming a boat in his head.

I assumed that a couple of the lesser aliens and twisted humans had to be killed at some point. But was it really the boat that deflated cthulhu though? When I first read the call of cthulhu I was under the conception that the boat simply minorly wounded cthulhu and then the stars were not quite the way he wanted them so he went limping back to R’lyeh. Did it actually get nearly killed by the boat? I think it it is definitely possible but I did not realize that.

Can't say I have, but the Kraken's not tied to the Far Realm (which is the closest D&D has of Cthulhu mythos, even if it's pretty different), so I'd say people would probably not use them unless they really need stats for a huge monster with tentacles ASAP.

It does not need to be tied to the far realm, I was just wondering if anyone used the Kraken statblock to represent one of them. It does not need to be related to the far realm at all, you simply need to refluff it and change some features that link it to the cthulhu mythos.

Sorry if I sound harsh, it's not my intention at all.

You are fine, I was not insulted at all. Feel free to state your opinion to me, so long as there are no personal insults involved I do not think it will sound harsh.

[Unoriginal]

They did? I have not played HotDQ so I did not know that. What CR was Tiamat?

30. Aside from that, she's the single most powerful single being rwhose stats were released so far.

Are you sure? In the dream quest of unknown kadath the marvelous city was referred to as “a fever of the gods”, Carter claimed that he was removed from the city by “dream’s tyrannous gods”, he also prayed to “the hidden gods of dream... but the gods made no answer” and Carter “resolved to find the gods of unknown kadath”. Perhaps Lovecraft actually could have been referring to the Other Gods when he said this or was using the term “god” in a metaphorical way, but to me it seemed pretty clear that the Great Old Ones were gods. Perhaps I was taking things too literally though...

Great Old Ones sometime have worshipers, sometime are referred to as gods, and they have a lot of power, but stricly speaking they're not gods, just so powerful they dwarf humanity as a whole (at least, the most famous ones do).

I assumed that a couple of the lesser aliens and twisted humans had to be killed at some point. But was it really the boat that deflated cthulhu though? When I first read the call of cthulhu I was under the conception that the boat simply minorly wounded cthulhu and then the stars were not quite the way he wanted them so he went limping back to R’lyeh. Did it actually get nearly killed by the boat? I think it it is definitely possible but I did not realize that.

He was defeated because he woke up too soon, decided "what the heck, still doing it", then got rammed by the boat so he went "going back to sleep after all".

Without the boat he'd have continued.

[JackPhoenix]

Shoggoths are already present in D&D, they were reviewed in the previous thread under the name Gibbering Mouther (and Pathfinder has actual shoggoths)

Funnily enough, just today I was contemplating using kraken as patron for GoO lock. While it isn't aberration, it definitely fits under "eldritch abomination".

[Requilac]

Shoggoths are already present in D&D, they were reviewed in the previous thread under the name Gibbering Mouther (and Pathfinder has actual shoggoths)

I do not quite think the gibbering mouther and the shoggoth are really the same thing. They are similar yes, but shoggoth are probably much bigger and have more intelligence than them. They are not genius level exactly, but the Shoggoth had the basic sentience required to overthrow the elder ones. Gibbering mouthers could never hope to be smart enough to band together and stage a rebellion. And there is no way a shoggoth is CR 2 and medium sized. The way I see it, gibbering mouthers are the equivalancy of a -3 Shoggoth.

[Sharur]

I believe Kobold Press's Tome of Beasts was endorsed by WotC, making it official. I mention this, as it has an actual Shoggoth.

[Kuulvheysoon]

I believe Kobold Press's Tome of Beasts was endorsed by WotC, making it official. I mention this, as it has an actual Shoggoth.

Flipping through my actual physical copy of the book now and the only mention of Wizards is in the back of the book where it talks about Kobold Press using the OGL.\

That is a pretty gnarly Shoggoth at CR19, however... if you're a melee character. This thing has no way to deal with an Aarakocra Wizard 1 with the Firebolt cantrip. It'd take hours, but it can't hit the wizard so long as it stays a minimum of 30ft in the air.

[M Placeholder]

I'll have the Kuo Toa up tomorrow.

On the artwork, one of the things that I wish had happened was that Tony DiTerlizzi was commissioned, because when he is on top form, he is outstanding and there is always the whimsy in his monsters that he creates, and the Kobold that he created blows the one in the MM out of the water IMO.

[War_lord]

Flipping through my actual physical copy of the book now and the only mention of Wizards is in the back of the book where it talks about Kobold Press using the OGL.\

That is a pretty gnarly Shoggoth at CR19, however... if you're a melee character. This thing has no way to deal with an Aarakocra Wizard 1 with the Firebolt cantrip. It'd take hours, but it can't hit the wizard so long as it stays a minimum of 30ft in the air.

To be fair though, most 5e monsters start to fall apart at range. The only thing I don't like about Tome of Beasts (other then too many evil sexy fay) is that the strict following of the WoTC custom monster rules has lead to many monsters with inflated HP totals.

[Envyus]

I'll have the Kuo Toa up tomorrow.

On the artwork, one of the things that I wish had happened was that Tony DiTerlizzi was commissioned, because when he is on top form, he is outstanding and there is always the whimsy in his monsters that he creates, and the Kobold that he created blows the one in the MM out of the water IMO.

Well thats a very different type of Kobold. None of the Dragon related stuff.

[ShikomeKidoMi]

Well thats a very different type of Kobold. None of the Dragon related stuff.

I don't know about that, look at his feet and forearms. Still, there is less of an immediately obvious connection than some versions, though I suppose he might be related to one of those oriental dragons with facial hair.

To me, he looks like someone hybridized a man, a dragon, and a Chihuahua. Which is a pretty great Kobold design, frankly.

[War_lord]

It's based on the original AD&D illustrations which are much more doglike then the little red dragon dudes that are modern kobolds.

[M Placeholder]

Sorry for the delay people, I'll have the Kuo-Toa up tomorrow, and it will be worth the wait (hopefully).

[M Placeholder]

Kuo - Toa

The debut of the Kuo - Toa was in the Shrine of the Kuo Toa and the Vault of the Drow, and over time, they have become more like the Deep Ones of H.P Lovecraft. They made their main manual debut in the original Fiend Folio, and then in the Monstrous Compendium Volume 2. Since then, they have always been in the first Monster Manual for new editions.

Just one of many piscine races, in the Underdark, the Kuo Toa have been somewhat overshadowed by the drow (and to a lesser extent), the duegar, as the underdark bad guys.

Artwork

In the first page, we see a depiction of a number of Kuo-Toa engaging in what could be construed as a a ritual to get in contact with their (imaginary) gods, and even in the distance, you can see the insanity of the fellow calling out to its lobster headed master.

The picture of the standard Kuo-Toa is of a member of the fish people wearing a tabard, with no weapons or a shield, which is a bit disappointing, but the artwork more than makes up for it, with this depiction having a full fish head with two barbels, and the artwork also manages to convey the sense that these creatures don’t exactly have it all together.

The illustration of the Archpriest has more barbels and a representation of their crazed diety on a staff, and it looks great. The sneer and the glassy eye give real personality to the creature, and show the fanatical furor and the insanity that your average spiritual leader of the Kuo-Toa presumably has.

The picture of the whip has a head that has more than a hint of the depiction in the original Fiend Folio, and has a look almost as evocative as the Archpriest, and the more than a hint of madness that is the hat of the Kuo-Toa in 5e.

Lore

The lore is similar to that of the previous editions, a race that once roamed the surface of the world then was forced into the sunless realms. And like many of the other races of the Underdark, the Kuo-Toa were driven insane by the yoke of the Mindflayers.

In previous lore, their Matron Goddess, Blibdoolpoolp was apparently driven mad by the insanity of the Kuo-Toa. Now she is just a figment of the imagination of the Kuo Toa, and was inspired by an old human statue, apparently. A flavour quote by Sabal Mizrym of Menzoberranzan (presumably a Drow) shows that there definition of insanity is worshiping a figment of their imagination. Of course, the Drow worship an insane deity that forces them to expand a good chunk of their energy into fighting each other rather than using that energy to fight the monstrous races of the Underdark and actually surviving in the depths, so go figure. And rather than being allies with the Drow (as was the case in 3.5 Forgotten Realms lore), we now have the two races as enemies since the first encounter, way, way back. As well as female statues with the head of a crayfish, we are told that the Kuo-Toa also often worship aboleths, and have a blind spot when it comes to how the horrors pull their strings, another very welcome development.

In previous editions, most Kuo-Toa were neutral, with the theocracy pushing down on them and forcing them to worship an insane goddess, and its a similar story in the 5th edition, with the archpriest and the Monitors (described in a Variant box) enforcing the faith in other (usually terrified) Kuo Toa.

The description also states that most of the kuo-toa weaponry is designed to capture, rather than kill, but there isn’t any lore that really goes into detail about what the Kuo-Toa do with their captives, though the lore regarding the Aboleth gives us some idea. There is also no lore regarding just why the Kuo-Toa can see into the Ethereal plane either.

Mechanics

The Kuo-Toa in this edition have no immunity to poison nor paralysis, and nor have they resistance to electrical attacks. But they still have the slippery trait and their otherworldly perception.

With such a high passive perception and the ability to see into the ethereal plane, these are foes that players are going to have to be pretty sharp to sneak past, and with the sticky shields and the net of the standard Kuo-Toa, a group of 4-5 Kuo-Toa along with an Archpriest and a Whip can prove quite tricky for a level 6-10 party, especially if the party are fighting the creatures in the bowels of the earth. The pincer staff with a 10ft reach of the whip combined with the sacred flame cantrip can be a real bane for those unlucky enough to be caught.

Considering where these guys dwell, its unlikely that they will be low-level foes. If the Kuo-Toa are goons for a Aboleth, then they would be ideal as the defenders of its inner sanctum, along with any enslaved creatures.

Verdict.

With the new, revised lore with imaginary gods and worship of horrors beyond time, as well as some great artwork, the Kuo-Toa are a worthy addition to any campaign set in the Underdark and make for challenging opponents.

[Unoriginal]

I think that the Kuo-Toa make great "fish out of the water" monsters, pun very much intended. That is to say, while having them in the Underdark is fitting, having them show up in an unlikely location will definitively be a good way to surprise players and to showcase the madness of those weird fish-people.

I see you haven't written adventure hooks, Dark Sun Gnome, so here's one I just thought up:

Sand and Water:

Near a river, a couple of days away from the closest city, lies a deep tomb no one dare approach. In its darkness, the Mummy Priest Tanothem sleeps, sleeps until his long disappeared god calls for him to serve again, knowing only a fool would dare to intrude in his domain... Saddly for him, the Kuo-Toa Archpriest Yubilobilob is just the fool for this task. After analyzing some antique pots depicting long-forgotten desert gods, Yubilobilob has come to the only reasonable conclusion: obviously, his deities want him to go on an holy crusade, shoot all the birds in the surface world, and declare himself god of the sky once its obvious to all he has defeated the previous god's army. But as he lead his troops (read: as many Kuo-Toa he and his goons could bully into submission) to the surface, the Archpriest realized two things: fish and bird didn't taste good when cooked together, and that holy crusades were rather boring. So he decided to kill the biggest bird he saw, call himself the new Sky God, and took the fact no one objected as a confirmation. And things could have stayed that way if the Kuo-Toa hadn't stumbled upon Tanothem's tomb while trying to go back to the Underdark, and decided to keep it after redecorating it to fit his new status as Sky God. Which lead to the awakening of a very outraged Mummy, livid at the blasphemous moron's actions and words, as well as every single undead in the area of which Tanothem's power triggered the animation. A day later, terrified locals come see the adventurers to beg them to put a end to the Dead's Anger...which naturally make them jump straight in the middle of this mess.

[ShikomeKidoMi]

I always thought the Kuo-Toa were one of the better piscine monstrous humanoid races. They've got a very distinctive style, with their restrictive theocracy and the several unique but not overpowered racial abilities. Too bad we didn't get a Kuo-Toa Monitor in the Monster Manual as well. Players don't expect fishpeople to have monks.

My only complaint about the artwork is that you can't see any scales, unlike 2nd or 3rd edition. Also, I'm not sure about that purple. Otherwise the art's pretty good.

Anyway, I'll probably have Lamia up Wednesday or Thursday, which will give a couple days for more Kuo-Toa discussion.

[RedMage125]

I'll have the Kuo Toa up tomorrow.

On the artwork, one of the things that I wish had happened was that Tony DiTerlizzi was commissioned, because when he is on top form, he is outstanding and there is always the whimsy in his monsters that he creates, and the Kobold that he created blows the one in the MM out of the water IMO.

While I agree that when one looks at the 2e Monstrous Manual, that ALL of the best artwork has his "TD" monogram in it, I don't think I'm a fan of this kobold. I'll agree that it's whimsical, certainly. but it doesn't have the "cravenly evil" menace that I like in my kobolds.

As an aside, I got TD's autograph in my 3.5e Monster Manual. His signature looks like a face, it's pretty rad.

Well thats a very different type of Kobold. None of the Dragon related stuff.

It's based on the original AD&D illustrations which are much more doglike then the little red dragon dudes that are modern kobolds.

Which is why I liked the 5e artwork the best. The artwork encapsulated what I think was the design goal of D&DNext/5e. That is, we have a doglike face and snout, but still retaining the reptilian phenotype that we've had for 3e and 4e kobolds. I liked WotC's kobolds with the "dimly related to dragons...at least in their own minds" for kobolds.

[War_lord]

I always thought the Kuo-Toa were one of the better piscine monstrous humanoid races. They've got a very distinctive style, with their restrictive theocracy and the several unique but not overpowered racial abilities. Too bad we didn't get a Kuo-Toa Monitor in the Monster Manual as well. Players don't expect fishpeople to have monks.

Technically we do, it's in as a variant. It's a CR3 Kuo-Toa whip with 13AC (from adding wisdom to its AC) and no speelcasting. It has the standard bite attack, and strike attack that does 1d6+2 plus 1d6 lightning damage and stops the target doing reactions till the end of the Kuo-Toa's next turn. Very nasty surprise for a party that's cutting Kuo-Toa in droves and doesn't stop to think why there's a couple coming towards them unarmed.

Not sure why they didn't give it its own statblock, but it's in.

[Unoriginal]

Not sure why they didn't give it its own statblock, but it's in.

It takes too much space to add a statblock that's identical to another one except the AC, the spells and one attack, don't you think?

[War_lord]

It takes too much space to add a statblock that's identical to another one except the AC, the spells and one attack, don't you think?

That wasn't a concern back when every life stage of every dragon got a block.

[Unoriginal]

That wasn't a concern back when every life stage of every dragon got a block.

But each of those stages have pretty different stats, no?