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Thread: Marvel Netflix
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2017-03-21, 02:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Marvel Netflix
No, me too. I hated his portrayal of Fisk in the first series. There was just no sign of the indomitable will that drove Fisk to his position of Kingpin of crime, nothing of the charisma that made hardened killers all over New York follow him. He was just mopey and dull even when being psychotically murderous.
He improved a bit in the second series but I'd still not consider his portrayal at his best to be more than OKAll Comicshorse's posts come with the advisor : This is just my opinion any difficulties arising from implementing my ideas are your own problem
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2017-03-21, 02:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2010
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Re: Marvel Netflix
Well, it's comforting to know I'm not the only one. I'm not a fan of D'Onofrio in general, though he was alright in The Magnificent Seven and pretty good in Men in Black.
He also bothered me less in the second season, but I'm inclined to attribute that simply to the fact he was on screen a lot less.
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2017-03-21, 03:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2013
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- Twin Cities, Minnesota
Re: Marvel Netflix
I really hope he's not coming back for the Defenders series. Or Luke Cage season 2. Or ever basically.
Pretty much. We're talking about a villain whose 'master plan' for framing his enemy was running around and punching people while yelling "I'm Luke Cage!"
I can understand not liking him but I'd blanche at calling it unrealistic. Far less competent people with bouts of more extreme instability in the real world have risen to much, much greater power.Last edited by Legato Endless; 2017-03-21 at 03:11 PM.
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2017-03-21, 03:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2011
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Re: Marvel Netflix
Spoiler: Re: DiamondbackWhen you're looking at the main villain, and wishing they'd bring back the lesser villain, you know there's a problem. Even with them tying his story to Luke's past/family, Diamondback just seemed "lesser" to Cottonmouth in almost every respect.Castlevania II: Dracula's Curse
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2017-03-21, 04:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2013
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Re: Marvel Netflix
I guess I'm the only one who preferred Diamondback to Cottonmouth and Mariah. C and M were basically the type of villains that belonged in a generic action/drama about gangsters and whatnot. Diamondback was exaggerated and cartoonish enough to be an appropriate villain for a superhero story.
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2017-03-21, 05:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2008
Re: Marvel Netflix
Regarding Fisk
One of the things I liked about DD Season 1 is that it helps serve as an origin story for Kingpin himself. No, he doesn't have the charisma and self-confidence the character is known for, but he evolves as he begins to lose control and I feel the longer narrative (S2 and beyond) is about how he has to rebuild in a position of exposure, without Wesley there to be his mouthpiece and white gloves. If the writing remains good, I'm hopeful that his next appearance continues along this path.
Also I want to see the white suit.
Regarding Diamondback/Cottonmouth
The problem with Diamondback occupying the "physical threat" role is that he does so with a gun. Any idiot can fire a gun. It's not even his particular proficiency with the gun that does it, it's the ammunition. Which as Shades points out to Cottonmouth is something that is available to purchase (for someone with the money). So Diamondback as a character had to be something more, which they tried to do in a fairly clumsy fashion that ended up making him less.
Personally I think they rushed some of the early stuff because of pacing worries. As a result, the complex backstory that informs episodes 2-7 in particular is hastily sidelined for a new focus in 8-13, making it feel like two different shows. What might have been more interesting is if Shades, who was shilled early on as someone to watch with great concern, was Diamondback's enforcer and the agent for taking down Luke Cage with the special ammo. Diamondback himself could have been held in reserve for a final episode stinger or a second season and given more time to be thought-out and executed. No offense to Eric LeRay Harvey, who did as much as could be done with the material, but both Alfre Woodard and Mahershala Ali got much better material, much better characters and much better opportunities to demonstrate their extremely high caliber as actors.Need a place to hang? Like Discord? Don't mind dealing with a capricious demon lord? Then you're welcome to join our LGBTQ+ friendly, often silly, very geeky server to discuss food, music, video games, tabletop, and much more.
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2017-03-21, 06:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2014
Re: Marvel Netflix
A particularly cheesy one perhaps, and therein lies the problem: sure, Cottonmouth and Mariah were more appropriate for a modern gangster movie than a superhero show, but you know who else was playing this like something other than a superhero show? Everybody else in the show with the single sole exception of Diamondback, and that includes Luke Cage himself. It's telling that Luke's bulletproofiness is only the second most unrealistic thing in this series. It's also telling that there's only one character on the show I could see cameoing in TMNT. He works solely because he serves as part of the deconstruction of blacksloitation stereotypes, whereas Luke, Pops, both main cops, Mariah, and Cottonmouth all serve as reconstructions showing how the characters came to be the way they are in a realistic and believable manner.
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2017-03-21, 06:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2013
Re: Marvel Netflix
Spoiler: Diamondback/Cottonmouth
Cottonmouth, if he had survived the attack, would have been set up perfectly for a Penguin in Gotham type arc where he has to claw his way back up from the bottom through season 2. Granted, the actor might have been too busy after his oscar.
Diamondback would have been fine as a hired assassin making a play for power, but he doesn't convince as someone with contacts in Hammertech that has the pull to mass market weapons. He's too unstable to be plausibly considered trustworthy enough to be an arms dealer.
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2017-03-21, 08:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2011
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Re: Marvel Netflix
I know I'm in the minority for this, but I really like Diamondback. He was over the top, crazy, and didn't really fit with the established tone of either the show or the other Netflix shows, but I had a blast watching him. Cottonmouth was really layered, but the whole time he was on screen, I just kept comparing him to Fisk.
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2017-03-21, 10:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2011
Re: Marvel Netflix
Regard Kingpin. In the first season, I think the whole idea about him being not the greatest. It's suppose to be that way. It's an his origin story as much as Daredevils. How he managed to rise to power. That's what I liked about his lackey. I think he was a major player in how he rose. I can buy that Kingpin was the powerful first. But his friend was the silk glove. I also loved how he had to learn he wasn't the good guy of the story. Kind of like Jules from pulp fiction. Accept in reverse. I think we are going to start seeing the real Kingpin from now on.
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2017-03-22, 04:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2016
Re: Marvel Netflix
Yeah, if they wanted someone to fill the "Guy who can take Luke one on one" slot...why didn't they just go with Bushmaster?
They used Shades (who worked for Bushmaster), and then paired him up with this goofy mother****er who is less competent than him. Shades was hands down the best villain in the show after Cottonmouth died.
It makes more narrative and thematic sense too. Instead of this dumbass with a stupid looking power suit, you have somebody with Luke's own powers, gained from the guy who gave Luke his powers...who is ultimately done in by a flaw in the process. He also IIRC is a big reason Luke was outed as an escaped convict at the end of his series (I only picked up with Issue 50/Power Man and Iron Fist #1, they mentioned he caused them some issues there), so you've got drama there even without the powers.
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2017-03-22, 06:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
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2017-03-22, 07:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2008
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2017-03-22, 08:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2009
Re: Marvel Netflix
I'm going to spoiler this, since it is sort of a spoiler for Luke Cage in that it is something I thought would happen that didn't (at least by 2/3 into the season):
Spoiler
I kept thinking Shades was going to end up being revealed as a super, something like mind control through eye contact (not Kilgrave level, but intimidation or suggestion.) A few introductory scenes with him had him remove his sunglasses when he was trying to really make a point, and it seemed like folk just agreed with him afterwards.
Maybe it is revealed he has some power, or will be revealed, but I was surprised when it kept seeming like he was mundane. But, then again, I figured Cottonmouth would have at least superstrength or something like that instead of being mundane. And Diamondback's 'power' being some supertech was disappointing.
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2017-03-22, 09:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2007
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Re: Marvel Netflix
SpoilerYou know, I had exactly the same impression about Shades. I wasn't expecting much of anything from Cottonmouth, but was delighted by the character that unfolded.
I loved when Mariah confronted Cottonmouth about killing Cage. Why use bullets, when you can use drowning, poison, or any other number of things? The two were thoroughly corrupt, but they still genuinely cared for Harlem and its culture - and they were smart, especially Mariah.
Diamondback's technology didn't bother me nearly as much as the poor characterization did. I really could not understand how anyone would work for him rather than Shades.
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2017-03-22, 10:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2013
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Re: Marvel Netflix
SpoilerFunny, my first thought was that he was going to eventually blast somebody to the face whenever somebody pissed him off enough, a la Cyclops. A Cyclops/Cage kind of fight would have been cooler than another mindrapist, IMHO.
I think the weakpoint of Diamondback wasn't so much about his characterization or his role. For me, he fell short because Cottonmouth was superb in every sense, and that has much to do with the actor interpretation, I think. Whenever he appeared on screen you could feel all the charisma and charm of a really dangerous gangster (also, that laughter ). That was awesome, and very in tone with everything about the plot.
Diamondback, on the other hand, was more straightforward. He wasn't exactly off tone in his own story (after all, they went for a Punisher kind of storyline); but for somebody who shared a past with Luke, his personal story and character wasn't so much developed. It felt in-between "generic" and "kinda rushed". They could have done better, with a couple more chapters, probably. So, when Luke finally beats him it should have been much more meaningful and transcendent for him; when instead it all end up kinda "K, I win".
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2017-03-22, 10:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2009
Re: Marvel Netflix
Come to think of it, there were a few scenes where I was thinking "Wow. I'm surprised the other criminals don't shoot Diamondback in the head right now." Sure, he might kill one or two before they finish him off, but numbers matter (when plot armor isn't in play). There was at least one scene I thought Shades was about to do it.
not spoiling the above because, for all I know, it happened after I stopped watching the show.
Sorta reminds me of Jessica Jones and Kilgrave. I also thought that (even though I acknowledge it's out of character) Luke should have just punched Mariah and ended her threat, but that's in part because I despise the 'bureaucratic' evil that she uses more than most types of villainy.
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2017-03-22, 02:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2016
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2017-03-22, 03:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2013
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Re: Marvel Netflix
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2017-03-22, 05:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2008
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Re: Marvel Netflix
My issue with Cottonmouth is that he's, at best, a minor antagonist. At any point, Luke could have walked into his club, folded him in half and walked away whistling. Even the threat he poses to Harlem is fairly insignificant; it's not as though there is any shortage of gun and drug runners in New York.
Diamondback poses an immense threat, not just to Cage but all powered individuals.Last edited by Giggling Ghast; 2017-03-22 at 05:37 PM.
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2017-03-22, 06:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2016
Re: Marvel Netflix
Not really. Diamondback is just another step up on the gun runner ladder, is all. It's not like he was the only person who had or could purchase those Hammertech guns, and most powered individuals are already susceptible to normal bullets...or would shrug off even these ones completely.
Luke Cage is fairly low on the power scale as far as "invulnerable" guys go. He hits that sweet spot of being strong enough to basically ignore small arms fire but not being able to punch into the "shrugs off tank shells" weight class. At least as far as the early comics and this show (where he's actually a fair bit stronger than he was in the late 70's it looks like) go. He's one of the very few people these new weapons matter against. Against most anyone else they're either overkill or underkill.
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2017-03-22, 09:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2011
Re: Marvel Netflix
Well, I finished Iron Fist. I have to say... I don't get the hate for the show.
I want to give the show 3/5, In all fairness though. Its 2/5.
I mean it is a pretty bland show, it's nothing that is worth all the hate. Maybe people were expecting something else? To much hate is being thrown at Finny. Again, I feel like this is the opposite of Jessica Jones. I think he is getting so much negativity, because he is white, and a guy. If any other combo of PC were in the lead, with the same acting ability. It would have been much better received. For the most part, the acting isn't bad. It's the story again. This all seemed to be pretty standard Martial Arts movie. A guy leaves his school before he finished learning. That's one other thing I don't get the hate. I get that he is suppose to be a martial arts master, but that is in the future. People seemed to want it right now. Which I don't get, this is an origin story. He pretty much left as soon as he got the power. So he had NO idea how to use it. I don't get the hate for his martial arts ability. He was pretty good in the show. I mean by comparison he was taking on more opponents then Daredevil. Taking them out. I mean he wasn't throwing people threw walls and jumping over buildings. I don't think that is his schtick though. That's one of the things though. People have WAY to much expectations of grandeur for the show right now.
I don't know why it always come down to the story this round of shows. I thought about it. I think it has to do with the fact Daredevil season 1 took its time, and was an origin story. It didn't convolute the story with anything else.
Season 2 Daredevil, was just jammed with to much exposition, both about Elektra and Punisher. I mean Season 2 had just the same amount of problems as the Daredevil movie. Decent acting, just stuffed with to much. The next three shows, all have the same problem. They seemed like they were trying to play catch up with Daredevil. Had so much going on, on top of trying to be an origin story. I mean with Jessica Jones, and Iron Fist it worked out a little. There back stories where pretty cookie cutter. By that, they didn't seem to have that much background incidents, and characters to do much with. What they had could have been way better if they changed aspect of the show. Iron Fist though. That show had WAAAAY to much to explain to try do something complicated. Unlike the other three shows, Iron fist seems to have a lot of Lore behind it. This show seemed to have 2 or 3 seasons worth of stuff shoved into the foreground. All dumped in exposition.
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2017-03-22, 10:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2016
Re: Marvel Netflix
Not at all. I've long been on record saying that changing Danny's race would be dumb. It defeats the entire point of a big part of Iron Fist's character arc (sheltered white boy learns about other cultures through friendly interaction with people from different walks of life).
Dead wrong. The Iron Fist's other title is The Living Weapon. They are the greatest martial artist in a city where almost every male child learns martial arts from a young age. They prove themselves by beating the everloving **** out of everyone in a big tournament and then fist fighting a god damn dragon to earn the power of the Iron Fist.
The Iron Fist is a martial arts master, full stop. Not a novice. Not a journeyman. A master. Iron Fist is supposed to be one of the greatest martial artists in the world from day 1. This is not to say there are none that rival or exceed him in ability, but the people who can take Danny in a fair 1 v 1 match of technique should be pretty slim. His mastery of the Iron Fist itself is a different story, yes. He literally did just get the power and leave before Lei Kung could even teach him the basics of how to use it to do stuff like make yourself immune to poison or heal your own wounds (that first one bites him in the ass pretty quick though, don't it?).
The problem, however, is not Iron Fist's stated or implied prowess, or how he beats people as you suggest here:
It's the actor's ability to sell that kind of prowess. Finn got the shaft HARD here. He has the acting chops for sure. But he got like 3 weeks of training and no time to improve on his own time during the role. He's relatively in shape, but doesn't have a martial artist's build. There are frequent cutaways and edits in his fight scenes to hide the fact that he can barely throw a proper punch. There's a scene where he does basic Tai Chi warmups and nearly loses his balance for chrissake.
The problem is not with the CHARACTER'S martial arts ability, but the ACTOR'S.
I came in expecting fight choreography and actor coordination on par with a show called Into the Badlands (great show for wuxia fighting action). Or, AT LEAST as good as the choreography and athleticism shown in Daredevil.
As-is it's not even as good as the choreography in traditional network superhero shows like Arrow.
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2017-03-22, 11:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2011
Re: Marvel Netflix
Yeah, I understand the part about not being the best choreographed show. That doesn't bother me as much. Part of the reason is, I think that is how he is suppose to be in the story. He left his school, and his destiny. He was thrown off his groove. The whole show he seemed to be trying to find his center. Not only is he dealing with the loss of his Identity, ON his return he is further thrown off by the huge changes he has seen to the life that was. Furthermore, he keeps finding out he is now in a soap opera. I mean coming back from the dead after 15 years, Finding out his mom and dad didn't die in an accident, but were murdered.. Not only murdered. But murdered by his "uncle". His "Siblings" keep screwing himself and each other out of everything.
I don't know, to me it wasn't that bad. In most fights, he really didn't seem like he was trying. Like literally, I think it worked that he was bad at selling his abilities. It was just kind of funny seeing him move around like. Okay, they punch here, they punch there, this is so easy. No one really seem to challenge him. Also, I am not a huge fan of Kung Fu movies that have a lot of wire action. in it. The fighting in this one seem more grounded in reality, which I don't mind. The problem with him being the best of the best right out the gate. Would be. We would have WAY to many scenes where they send wave after wave of nameless mooks.
To me, enough of the story elements could be a reason why he doesn't seem as skilled as he should be. In real life, I think Finn will get way better as the show goes on. like all shows like this.
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2017-03-22, 11:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Marvel Netflix
Really? What were they thinking? It can't be that hard to find an actor in his 20s or early 30s who has some martial arts background... And it's not like he's that compelling an actor in the non-action parts either. I'm 4 episodes or so in (Danny just fought 4 Hand goons out of a Mortal Kombat 2 and made roughly 1000 dumb hero mistakes while hallucinating a guy who should not have been speaking to him in english) and I'm having trouble finishing the show, it's not like I'm starved for time but when I open Netflix and I have to choose between watching Danny Rand be an idiot who can't convince me he can actually punch someone (the cuts from Finn to his stunt double are super jarring) and 10 years ago Anthony Bourdain getting drunk in a random city for an hour I'm going to check out the bars in Tehran (I know, bad example)
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2017-03-22, 11:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Marvel Netflix
You're kinda missing the point. Again, Cottonmouth is a nobody; he couldn't afford a single Judas bullet. It isn't until Diamondback shows up that Luke is actually threatened.
Also, what superheroes in the MCU would be able to shrug off a bullet that drills through their insides? The Hulk, The Vision, Ghost Rider and ... Groot, maybe?Last edited by Giggling Ghast; 2017-03-22 at 11:56 PM.
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2017-03-23, 12:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2016
Re: Marvel Netflix
It's unlikely that it drills hard enough to pierce Thor's hide, for one, and the Iron Man suit is likely tough enough to stop it as well. Like I said, Luke is VERY low on the "hardened skin" front and it BARELY managed to penetrate enough to harm him.
That leaves only the Avengers and other assorted heroes without any sort of limited invulnerability that are susceptible to this bullet...and they're already just as susceptible to normal bullets. And even of those, at least one (Captain America) has something on their person that can block it too.
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2017-03-23, 12:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Marvel Netflix
It penetrated all the way inside Luke and then exploded. It's just because his guts are as tough as his skin that it didn't tear him to shreds.
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2017-03-23, 01:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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2017-03-23, 02:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Marvel Netflix
Clertar is right. Claire had commented on his soft tissue not being soft at all. The whole boiling acid bath to shut off his abalone DNA invulnerability was pretty ridiculous. Of course, in Jessica Jones, Claire was also able to relieve pressure on his brain by going behind an eye, so this doesn't seem at all consistent.