Paladin for PHB1/2-Only Game?

[Edelritter]

Hey there,

Was wondering how well a Paladin would work for a game that uses only PHB1 and PHB2 material, plus Hybrid rules from PHB3. The party is fairly optimized (we're all gamers who've been playing D&D for over 15 years now), and I'm fairly dubious about the Paladin's stickiness and ability to manage multiple enemies when compared to our existing Warden—lack of Divine Sanction is rough.

Am I likely to regret it?

[MwaO]

Would you be the only Defender?

Something to consider is being a Fighter|Paladin hybrid. That makes your Divine Challenge trigger your Combat Challenge. You just need to be a balanced Str/Cha hybrid.

[Edelritter]

Would you be the only Defender?

Something to consider is being a Fighter|Paladin hybrid. That makes your Divine Challenge trigger your Combat Challenge. You just need to be a balanced Str/Cha hybrid.

I might be the only Defender, yes. Our Warden player is interested in playing his Avenger character for a story arc, but he's the only Defender we currently have. If I bring in a Defender he'll have some freedom to swap.

Thanks for the suggestion, I'll definitely look into it. Do you have anything else in mind for weapon selection, and whether to use Dex or Wis as a secondary stat?

[darkbard]

Here is some rough advice from MwaO's Hybrid Handbook, found here: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthr...&prefixid=wotc

Fighter
Summary:Fighter isn't really a true hybrid. It desperately needs to pick choices that give it marks outside of using Fighter powers for attacks - if it can do that or simply doesn't care about being a Defender, it turns Blue
Stats: Mixes well with all stats. Really only cares about having a Strength-score and maybe not even that if it is just using mainly Combat Challenge with another mark option.
Class Features: Something of a hit or miss. Your mark is structured around using your fighter powers and Fighters don't have a lot of minor action or interrupt attacks.
Weapon: Decent weapon choice, but often doesn't work well with many implements
At-Wills:With hybrid, not the strongest selection.
Hybrid Feat benefits: Solid Armor choice or Tempest Style both have their place. The problem for Fighters focused on being a Defender is that they have to figure out some way to get a decent AC of 17+ or some way of replacing all the hit points they're going to lose.
Interesting Builds: Fighter|Seeker. Deft Hurler Style. Fighter|Runepriest. Two wrongs make a right. Mark them - they ignore you and you get to swat them. They attack you and you get bonus damage. Multiclass into another Defender class for additional mark capabilities.
Key Compendium Searches: Mark and Primary Stat of other class. Mark and other class.
Useful Options: Daring Blade, Battle Chaplain, Warpriest, Avernian Knight, Huntmaster, Blade Bravo, multiclass Defender feats(especially Warden), Kirre's Roar as a power choice. Sentinel Marshal, the theme, gives an encounter long mark.
Warning: Must have alternate ways of marking for when you don't use Fighter attack powers in a round.

Paladin
Summary:One of the better Defender options due to Holy Symbol and their armor. If only they had an at-will option that didn't use a melee weapon...
Stats: Str+Wis or Cha on its own. Lots of options. Given the lack of Lay on Hands, Wis isn't that valuable. I'd ignore it.
Class Features:With the Essentials update amazing. Double mark for Defender|Paladins, free action damage at-will and soft control for Ranged Attacker|Paladins, and functional mark for off-defender Melee Attacker|Paladins.
Implement/Weapon: Has a lot of flexibility with either Holy Symbol or all martial weapons, and Devout Protector Expertise is made for them.
At-Wills: Decent at-wills, but many builds will be trying to figure out how to avoid ever using them.
Hybrid Feat benefits:Plate and Heavy Shield
Interesting Builds: Paladin|Cha Ranged Striker(Warlock or Sorcerer) - can easily function with Str/Cha, Dex/Cha, or Int/Cha for those.
Warning: Hybrid Paladin has been updated such that its Divine Challenge does not take an Immediate to punish.

Read more: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthr...#ixzz4ZqpADCN1

[MwaO]

I might be the only Defender, yes. Our Warden player is interested in playing his Avenger character for a story arc, but he's the only Defender we currently have. If I bring in a Defender he'll have some freedom to swap.

Thanks for the suggestion, I'll definitely look into it. Do you have anything else in mind for weapon selection, and whether to use Dex or Wis as a secondary stat?

I'd mostly just ignore Dex & Wis. You don't really need them for anything specific unless you want Rain of Blows to have 3 attacks - which is expensive. Put a pre-racial of 16 into both Str & Cha, put Con at 12 and Dex at 12.

I'd use a one-handed +3 proficiency weapon+heavy shield. Longsword. But that changes to Shortsword(or maybe Rapier) if you want Rain of Blows.

[Kurald Galain]

Am I likely to regret it?

If the party is as heavily optimized as you suggest, then this does strike me as likely. The initial paladin design had numerous problems that were fixed in the Divine Power book.

[MwaO]

Ironically, both Flame Spiral and Demonskin Adept are PHB2 if being worried about too much optimization is a problem...