Greenguard WIP [Base Class]

[aimlessPolymath]

Neither Carapace nor Thorn has a built in magical bonus as I have them written. Can you explain where you got that from?

Oh, whoops. My assumption since roughly post #22(see: last sentence of the first quote, followed by "I am agreed" ) that they would have a "numbers bonus" to bring their minimum power in-line with magic items- that kind of bonus is actually pretty common in fighter fixes, since it reduces the cost of the classic "golf club bag" of weapons (each of which is needed to beat a specific DR), and reduces weapon dependence.

And actually, I think including an inherent enhancement bonus is better for the class overall. The main benefit of Dweomer Seeds over using ordinary weapons is that you can load in whatever special abilities you need to beat a particular foe- you grab a ghost touch seed for ghosts, a dragon-bane seed for dragons, and so on. If you're instead spending money on +5 dragon-bane seeds, +3 ghost-touch seeds, and so on, the expenses go way up, and also the benefits of modularity are reduced by a whole lot.

I think I am fine with changing Dweomer Seeds to cultivars. I am more hung up on the concept than the mechanics. One concern I do have with them being living plants though is that they would be fragile when not implanted and it would be awful to have a highly enchanted cultivar that was stolen and when you recover your gear, the Thief's magical dagger is fine and the wizards wand is fine but your cultivar is dead. By making them living, wouldn't we also be making them killable?

Admittedly, this is an issue. While equipment can be sundered, it's a lot less likely to happen due to being more easily used. On the other hand, it seems to me that the main cost of creating the Cultivar is breeding it to accept the magical energy + growing it. If a seed from the dead plant survives (like an acorn!), it could be used to grow a new Cultivar at a fraction of the cost.


Man, I am making all sorts of assumptions here. I'm really sorry! As penance, please accept this write-up of some Species, from that one time I said I would but didn't:

Entomb: When you forcibly move a creature into a solid surface covered with or made of plant matter, you may cause it to grow and twist around them, imprisoning them within- a Reflex save negates this, allowing them to break free. Otherwise, they become unable to move from their square, must remain prone if they are prone, cannot make use of their limbs, and have cover from the outside world. They may escape this hold in ways which could escape a grapple, against an effective static grapple check of 14 + your level. If the surface you pushed them into is solid plant matter to a depth sufficient to contain their body, on a subsequent turn, you may push them further as a standard action while adjacent, immediately and automatically entombing them within the surface. At this point, they may only escape by making a Strength check with a DC of 10 + the hardness of the material + your Wisdom modifier, at which point they immediately exit to the nearest empty square. Note that many things qualify as forcible movement, including bull rushes, trip and overrun attempts which knock the target prone (these move them downward), movement made while grappling the target, and falling. If you did not perform the forcible movement yourself, you must ready a standard action to capture them in this way.

(note that you can use this on trip attempts, too, as long as the ground is grassy. If you don't want this or it turns out to be too strong, take out the trip/overrun attempts).
(I made it a little slower than instant entombing because that would be maybe too good)

Hive: You can construct and maintain a Tiny hive of insects, which you may attach to your carapace and direct at your enemies. While within 30 feet, you can command it to release a 5 foot radius cloud of biting and stinging insects, which deal 1d6 points of swarm damage per round to those other than you within. When mounted on your carapace in a process taking one minute, they travel with it, surrounding you to a radius of 5 ft when active. They are removed when the carapace is destroyed, or in another process taking one minute. They must be fed meat appropriate for a Tiny creature each day (about 1/4 lb), or 3 hit points for the day, or starve after 4 days of cumulative starvation. In order to create a new hive if the old one is destroyed, you must spend an hour in the wilderness searching for a hive to take.

(you can take out the last two sentences if you want to avoid the maintenance/"realism")

Walking siege engine?
Decomposition: You may create seeds which accelerate the normal process of erosion and decay. When charged and launched at a square, these seeds produce a 20-foot radius of growth. Unattended objects and corporeal undead within this area are covered with growth and immediately begin to be decomposed, taking 4d6 damage each round which bypasses hardness. This process will continue unless the growth is destroyed or disenchanted. If disenchanted, the process continues, but slower, at the rate of 1 point of damage per day.

(Pretend we have some rules about how areas of growth with an effect attached can be destroyed by fire damage, being scraped off by a slashing weapon, or a dispel magic or similar effect will "disenchant" magic effects)
(also, it's anti-undead!)

I notice myself pushing the class towards a more "natural" theme of growth and physically cultivating plant life to control- I just put in rules about how the growth from Decomposition continues, even nonmagically, I threw in language about physically gathering the hive for Hive, and I think the whole Cultivar thing is also a symptom maybe? I just noticed that I put a little of it in the original Vine genus, under Base Plant. I don't know if that's a direction you want the class to go in- let me know if you want to just let magic be magic.

[Kaskus]

Another instance of us being out of sync. Lets focus just on carapace and thorn to begin. As Carapace is currently written, they get points equal to their wisdom score to build a custom suit of armor that roughly falls in line with existing mundane armor. As Thorn is written, they get 1 + wisdom modifier points to build a custom weapon that roughly falls in line with existing mundane weapons. So at the end of the day, these abilities basically replicate core starting equipment.

If you are in agreement about what they currently do and the numbers (wis score & 1 + wis mod), the next step becomes deciding if there should be a built in scaling bonus and if so, what that should be. I had forgotten the initial suggestion because I was so focused on figuring out where we got off track. I think the scaling bonus idea is a good one. Your suggestion of 1/3 level would leave them at +6 over their career. Is your intention with that number for it to be just an enhancement bonus to hit/damage or is it tied to adding special abilities as well?

For my part, I think a standard enhancement bonus is good with some separate way to add cultivars, which will stand in for other effects. Then we can break down the weapon / armor enchantments and make a cultivar menagerie.

Ghost Orchid (+1 Thorn Cultivar):
When (entwined?), ghost orchids grant the Ghost Touch property.

Simple stat blocks like the above with fun names that reference plant themes or actual plants would be the idea. Mechanically, its just a cultivar that grants a specific +1 magical weapon special ability. There would be no cultivars adding just numerical enhancements. that would be covered completely by the built in scaling bonus.

What do you think about that?

[aimlessPolymath]

I am in agreement about the current points for both the thorn and the carapace.

Is your intention with that number for it to be just an enhancement bonus to hit/damage or is it tied to adding special abilities as well?

For my part, I think a standard enhancement bonus is good with some separate way to add cultivars, which will stand in for other effects. Then we can break down the weapon / armor enchantments and make a cultivar menagerie.

Yeah, just an enhancement bonus.

My intent is that the scaling is wholly a numbers bonus, intended to make weak cultivars usable at higher level. For example, Ghost Orchids would otherwise be sitting at around 4 points less attack and damage at high levels compared to normal equipment otherwise.
The bonus might be a little higher than warranted- I chose a rate of 1/3 level because Craft Magic Arms and Armor allows a caster to create magic items with an enhancement bonus of 1/3 their caster level. I would be happy with reducing it to +1/4 level, capping the bonus at +5 (i.e. the limit of normal magic items), or leaving it at +6.

Do note that enhancement bonuses don't stack, so the +1 effect flower is basically just effect since the enhancement bonus is overridden by the thorn/carapace's natural bonus. This means that the primary value of the flower is just the effect.

With the understanding that the descriptions are totally made up (more of the naturalism thing, I think), and the description of how they are made is just rolled into the cost to create:

Silverlight Lily(+1 Holy cultivar:
These glimmering lillies are grown in a special solution of holy water. When entwined with a Thorn, they grant the Holy property.

Darkest Tangle(+1 Unholy cultivar):
This scraggly bush are grown in a special solution of unholy water. When entwined with a Thorn, their branches grant the Unholy property.

Blood Poppies(+1 Bane cultivar)
These red flowers are grown in the blood of a particular kind of creature. When entwined with a Thorn, they grant the Bane property against that kind of creature.

Rustleaf Grass (Varied)
By burying a metallic magic weapon and seeding normal grass over it, Rustleaf Grass is created. When entwined, it grants the magic properties of the buried weapon.

Endless Sapling(+1 Speed cultivar
Painstakingly grown over a period of weeks, this sapling magically absorbed the time spent creating it; it never ages a day. When entwined with a Thorn, it grants the Speed property.

Hateful Rose(+1 Vicious cultivar)
These roses is covered in thorns, which hungrily drink the blood of those who touch it. When entwined with a Thorn, they grant the Vicious property.

They sort of... ended up mostly being flowers. Flower names are just nicer sounding, I guess.
The enhancement bonuses might need to be increased- the way I wrote these, high-class equipment can be gotten for cheap pretty easily. (at 9th level, where someone else might have a +1 holy weapon or a +3 weapon, you can have a +3 holy weapon- a +1 holy thingy plus the +3 base bonus).
Maybe scale the attached enhancement bonus with effect? +2 holy, +3 speed, +4 brilliant energy? Hard to say.

[Kaskus]

I think we are back in sync and on track!

Carapace is official.
Thorn is official.

1/3 bonus progression reflected in the class table

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I think 1/3 progression is fine. Would it be too much of a nerf if the bonus was reduced for each cultivar?

So level 6, they have a bonus of +2, then they add a ghost orchid and that reduces the bonus by 1, making it a +1 / ghost touch (still a +2 total bonus).

Level 18, inherent bonus is +6, add ghost touch (+1 cultivar) & Spell-stealing (+3 cultivar). The 2 cultivars reduce the bonus by 2 so it becomes a +4 ghost touch / Spell Stealing Thorn (+8 total bonus)

This has the effect of automatically scaling how many different cultivars can be added at once. Does the reduction in bonus to get the cultivars hurt the effectiveness overall though?

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Also, because I always have the adaptation concept floating in my mind. You could have an adaptation (could be a feat instead?) that allows you to make a hybrid cultivar in order to put two enchantments in while only reducing the bonus by 1.

[aimlessPolymath]

I really, really like that, on multiple levels.
-Solves that dangling +6 bonus at high levels- players can only reach those heights at the cost of having no enchantments.
-Lets players customize their equipment to a much greater degree
-Aids the feeling of having the cultivars "feeding off" the thorn and carapace

I love it, like the adaptation. Minor worry that it devalues +1 equivalent cultivars like flaming or light fortification, as the enhancement bonus drop doesn't give as much of a benefit to make up for it.
That could be easily solved with a species/adaptation, though-
Commensalism: You may add a single cultivar with a +1 equivalent bonus to your thorn or carapace without reducing it's enhancement bonus.

I like the Twin adaptation. It sounds like we're setting a value of "one adaptation = one situational +1 enhancement bonus", which is a nice balance point- both my and your adaptations increase the net enhancement bonus by +1 vs. not having them under the given circumstances.

[Kaskus]

I think I like your version better. It is simpler while also being more versatile and feels less abusable.

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Now we need to talk about acquiring cultivars. A craft mechanic that works the same as Craft Magic Arms & Armor still seems simple and intuitive to me. It could represent grooming and tending the plant from some mundane base plant.

You didn't seem to be a fan of that method when I mentioned it before. Was that due to it being seed based before?

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Finally, I noted that you referred to your own write-up as an adaptation! Do you think they have a place in the class after all or did I just manage to trick you with terminology?

[aimlessPolymath]

It's a little better- you get less of +x Holy Wounding Speed weapons abusing the lack of scaling cost, and more +x holy ghost touch weapons that are basically wealth-per-level with a little extra on top.

I am now OK with creating magic items like Craft Magic Arms and Armor.

I think there's room for adaptations, yes. My stubborn anti-progress side insists that all the adaptations we have so far (i.e. two) have only a little over the valuation of a feat, and could be granted via feat access just as easily.

It also occurs to me that martial characters have a great need for feats, and we should probably drop some bonus feats in the class somewhere. This is especially relevant given that this class relies somewhat heavily on combat maneuvers, which in Pathfinder are these big irritating feat chains.

[Kaskus]

I have 2 thoughts on adaptations & bonus feats. I had at one point thought that adaptations could serve the purpose of bonus feats, making it so they could be custom tailored to the Greenguard. That would prevent them from using those slots on existing feats though.

Alternatively, the proposed adaptations could be made into feats. Giving the greenguard bonus feats and allowing these as potentials for selection would give them the options while allowing them access to existing feats as well.

The third option would be to give them both feats as well as adaptations. This would be like "forced flavor." As much as I like adaptations conceptually, I am not sure if that is fitting.

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Ideas for adaptations...

1. Add points to carapace
2. Add points to thorn
3. Commensalism
4. Leviathan carapace form
5. Extra (Greenguard Ability)
6. Off Hand Thorn (for 2 weapon fighting support)
7. Thorn shield
8. some sort of mount option
9. Some way to utilize cultivars outside of bonding to thirn/carapace

I could probably think of some more.

Is there enough design space here to warrant inclusion of adaptations and/or should these all just be feats?

[aimlessPolymath]

I'm on mobile right now, so I'm going to be quick.
It looks like you might have enough adaptations to justify their own class feature. I'm a little uncertain, because at least three of those(leviathan carapace, off-handing, shield, arguably mount) are build-dependent options (which, admittedly, adaptations are, but we used them with the Verdure to let it specialize in a much broader way- see next paragraph). Three of the others (Extra points for thorn/carapace, extra species) are traditionally covered by feats- see Extra Music, Extra Rogue Talent, Extra Lay on Hands, Extra Channel Energy, etc.

I'm not saying that those specialist adaptations are bad. But they could be covered by feats perfectly easily. One of the things which made Adaptations work for the Verdure was the massive number of separate class features it got, letting each group of adaptations be a general specialization in that class feature. There's less of that here because there are fewer class features- we've been putting those abilities and specializations in Species instead. In this sense, Species and Genera are pretty much the Adaptations of the Verdure- they're ways of building for a particular combat style by taking related abilities.
...A simple way to resolve this would be to rename Species to Adaptations, actually. Since the role of Species in this class is similar to that of Adaptations in the Verdure (they're even gained at the same levels), it might be a change that helps consistency.

Separate from this issue is the question of whether the Green guard should get some number of bonus combat feats, like a fighter. My verdict on this question is yes- some Greenguard combat styles(grappling) rely on feat chains to work at their best, so bonus feats are important for the class to be it's best.

[Kaskus]

Now I think you might be tricking me because I would argue against calling species adaptations. I like the terminology and feel that system has on its own.

So, lets take a break from the adaptation conundrum. On Bonus Feats: I agree that they should get them. What about 2nd level and every 3 levels thereafter? I initially thought third and every three thereafter which puts it on the exact same track as the Carapace/thorn bonus. I kind of like it being offset from that. What do you think about every 3 levels and what about starting at level 2? Would every other odd level (3, 7, 11, 15, 19) be too few?

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I added in mechanics for the "Seeds" ability.

Added "Breed Cultivar" at 5th level.

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Some random thoughts I had while driving regarding Genera/Species...

I am thinking there should be several classes of species that work in similar ways
- Seed Species which allow you to create different types of seeds. The Cage Seed could be a seed species within the vinea genus for example.
- Carapace Species: Species which affect the carapce in some way
- Thorn Species: Species which affect the thorn in some way
- Touch Species? Species which grant new touch based powers (the "push you into a tree" power might be one of theses). Perhaps these are Combat Maneuver related in general?

Then, provide some floating bonuses for characters that collect multiple species with the same theme
- If you know 3 or more Seed Species, You get (some seed related bonus)
- If you know 3 or more Carapace Species...
- etc.

And also for those who collect different ones...
- If you know a seed species, a carapce species, and a seed species, you get...
- If you know a Seed species, a carapace species and a touch species...
- etc.

This could be done for Genera as well...
- if you know 3 or more species from this genus, you get...
- if you know species from 3 or more different genera...

That leads me into some general design goals for Genera...

1. Skill-related base ability?
Vinea = Climb
Aquatilis = Swim
Fungus = Disable Device or Heal
Carnivorus = Escape Artist or Intimidate
Succulentus = Survival
Toxicus = Craft (Poisonmaking), Perception or Heal
Robustus = Acrobatics
Delicatus = Perform or Diplomacy
Obscurus = Stealth

2. At least 1 species for each "type" that we decide is important (seed, carapace, etc.)

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Work in progress based on ideas from previous posts and goals as outlined above. No mechanics yet, just concepts...

Genus Vinea:

Base Ability: Scaling Climb Bonus
Special: If you know 3 or more vinea species, you gain Skill Focus (Climb) as a bonus feat

v. tendricula: Basic attack vine ability

v. capta: Cage Seed

v. contorta: Grounding Curse from Boruta monster

v. constricta: allows you to grapple with vines rather than hands

v. ascenda (apparata?): climb bonus & treated as having equipment (If we were to go with something else as a base ability - apparata could be code for the base ability of each genus as well?)

v. tracta: Pulling Vine / Grappling Hook

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EDIT: Also check out Spell Bouquet Pinnacle for the Verdure and let me know your thoughts in that thread. Verdure still needs a little love

[Kaskus]

Added bonus feats to class progression table but have not defined what types of feats may be selected.

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I have been thinking more about species in a general way and I had some ideas for species types...

1. Genus Species (Seed): This is something I have talked about already. I thought these might work together sort of like luck feats. You can use your seed species powers a number of times equal to your wisdom modifer plus an additional time for each seed species you know.

2. Genus Species (Symbiote): These would be species that do things directly beneficial to the greenguard (or other attached creature - loan out your buffs?). These could be used to add abilities like Spell Resistance or auto condition removal effects (symbiote detects the condition and releases chemical to counteract it. there would be a use limit on these of course). This could also be where the ability to give yourself bulls strength, etc. (Symbiote releases adrenaline like compounds that amp you up). A Healing option?

3. Genus Species (Parasite): These would be species that can be attached to enemies to do variuous bad things to them (debuffs, ongoing damage, etc.)

There could probably be 1 or 2 more categories. I was thinking there would be some sort of bonus for having multiple species of the same type (seed gives additional uses, not sure what the others should do - maybe they all generate use pools that are shared among abilities of the same type?). This sort of goes along with my idea of automatic bonuses when you learn a certain number of species from one genus. The two systems together would give bonuses for those who want to specialize in one or a few genera as well as bonuses to those who want to specialize in species types.

What do you think of the "type" idea and do you have ideas for any other types?

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I was also thinking more about how Leviathan Carapce and Mount could be genera rather than adaptations and I agree that they work under than system. Leviathan Genus would give the armor form as the base ability and them give you various add-ons (like building a plant mech). Mount would similarly give you a mount as the base ability and then give you options for the mount as the various species. What do you think?

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I promise, I will eventually put together some mechanics / genus trees, etc. The concepts are still evolving in my mind somewhat.

[aimlessPolymath]

I like the idea of categorizing the types- one thing which seems to be missing somewhat is direct control of existing plants, like that "shove people into trees" thing.

I don't know that I'd have them set up so that getting multiple of the same kind gives some extra benefit. Combined with the Genera thing, I think that it just gets overcomplicated. The benefit of having multiple Touch/Seed species is that you have a greater variety of options against enemies, some of which work and some of which won't, and you can stack multiple effects. Having lots of Carapace abilities means that your carapace is great. I could maybe see some kind of feat which improves a general class of options (The equivalent of Weapon Focus(Melee touch spells), or Weapon Specialization(Ray Spells), which is actually a thing), which would give light benefits to specializing in a particular style of species.

I could see some kind of synergy within Genera, representing greater control of a particular class of plants, which gives you greater options within that class of plant, ex. having one Vine species gives the basic ability, but having four gives an improved version (say, the rope you created is affected by animate rope).

The categories you suggested look good. There's something of a lack of interaction with existing plants, (i.e. pushing someone into a tree requires there to be a tree- it's not a species you carry around with you!)
Giving a minor static but stacking bonus per species makes sense to me- extra uses, for example, like you did for seeds in the example.

[Kaskus]

What do you think of putting the plant control abilities in their own class abilities? Species are things you carry so they modify you or your stuff or give you new stuff.

Some ideas in that theme:
1) Ability to animate a plant and use teamwork feats with it (give free teamwork feats like the Hunter?)
2) Aforementioned "push you into a tree" power. Maybe make it any plant or group of plants of sufficient size? Treat as swallow whole?
3) Rolling hills: cause the turf / undergrowth to roll like a wave (bull rush as an area effect). Teh wave can move away from you or towards you as you choose.

"by myself" teamwork feats and combat maneuver specialization would make for fun/interesting combat I think?

What do you think of the plant-buddy for teamwork feats (but not a separate creature / minion / companion)? Could also be used to "by myself" flank?

The rest of class features would be new ways to use combat maneuvers (like rolling hills above) or bonuses thereto.

I added a class feature at third level called "Stability" that gives bonuses to CMD. Part of making them combat maneuver specialists. What do you think?

[Kaskus]

Added "Accomplice" at 4th level (the plant buddy ability I mentioned above)

[Kaskus]

It has been a minute but I've not given up on this idea. I completely re-wrote Carapace and Thorn and got rid of the point based systems for both. They are much simpler and easier to understand now.

I don't have as much time as I'd like to work on stuff so updates will likely continue to be sporadic but I do plan on there being updates.