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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    Default Re: Retiering the Classes (PF): Barbarian, Bloodrager, Fighter, Cavalier, Samurai

    Actually, a Bloodrager's spell list is pretty combat-oriented, as are their bonus feats. Therefore, they still excel only in combat.
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    Default Re: Retiering the Classes (PF): Barbarian, Bloodrager, Fighter, Cavalier, Samurai

    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I think that puts Bloodrager into T3, since they can do everything the barbarian's doing, while also getting utility spells and bloodline feats.
    No. As Sayt points out, just because one class is stronger than another doesn't mean they're in different tiers. This cannot be the case because there are (many) more classes than tiers.

    Aside from that, the bloodrager can't do "everything" the barb is doing because they don't get rage powers. And there are some good rage powers out there. But overall, your premise that "either the barb is T5 or the BR is T3" is incorrect.
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    Default Re: Retiering the Classes (PF): Barbarian, Bloodrager, Fighter, Cavalier, Samurai

    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I think that puts Bloodrager into T3, since they can do everything the barbarian's doing, while also getting utility spells and bloodline feats.
    They can't actually do everything the Barbarian does - not without the Primalist archetype anyway, and per the rules in the source thread we're considering archetypes and ACFs separately. Even when you consider Primalist, if they get more than a handful of rage powers they end up losing potentially very valuable Bloodline Powers .
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Retiering the Classes (PF): Barbarian, Bloodrager, Fighter, Cavalier, Samurai

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Even when you consider Primalist, if they get more than a handful of rage powers they end up losing potentially very valuable Bloodline Powers .
    Let's consider Primalist then. Bloodline power for rage powers might be a bad trade, but suppose we do it anyway. A barbarian 20 has 10 rage powers. A Primalist 20 can trade five bloodline powers for those rage powers, and they still have one bloodline power left over.

    So they're left with everything the barbarian has, one bloodline power, five bonus feats and spellcasting.
    Last edited by Bucky; 2017-03-06 at 12:25 PM.
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    Default Re: Retiering the Classes (PF): Barbarian, Bloodrager, Fighter, Cavalier, Samurai

    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    Let's consider Primalist then. Bloodline power for rage powers might be a bad trade, but suppose we do it anyway. A barbarian 20 has 10 rage powers. A Primalist 20 can trade five bloodline powers for those rage powers, and they still have one bloodline power left over.

    So they're left with everything the barbarian has, one bloodline power, five bonus feats and spellcasting.
    And? At best that's an argument for the Primalist archetype being a tier higher, not the base Bloodrager. And depending on the bloodline, you may very well be weaker than a basic Bloodrager if you give away all (or even any) of your bloodline powers like you've proposed.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Retiering the Classes (PF): Barbarian, Bloodrager, Fighter, Cavalier, Samurai

    Regarding your first point, your second point answers it nicely.
    Last edited by Bucky; 2017-03-06 at 02:20 PM.
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    Default Re: Retiering the Classes (PF): Barbarian, Bloodrager, Fighter, Cavalier, Samurai

    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    Regarding your first point, your second point answers it nicely.
    My point is that you have not proven that Bloodrager and Barbarian belong in separate tiers. Primalist Bloodrager might, since it gives you total freedom to cherry-pick the best of both worlds. (Though even then, I would point out that Barbarian rage powers interact more freely with feats and items since they actually have the class feature.)
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Retiering the Classes (PF): Barbarian, Bloodrager, Fighter, Cavalier, Samurai

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    My point is that you have not proven that Bloodrager and Barbarian belong in separate tiers. Primalist Bloodrager might, since it gives you total freedom to cherry-pick the best of both worlds. (Though even then, I would point out that Barbarian rage powers interact more freely with feats and items since they actually have the class feature.)
    While I can agree with you on this... going for the Abyssal Bloodline and trading out the 8th level and 16th level bloodline power for 4 ragepowers can really make a difference (it's the only bloodline I know so far since I am currently building something with it...). I doubt that the option of taking it (since you basically only gain the option of taking them...) was a mistake on the dev's part. It's Totem Barbarian all over again but this time with actual benefits. And unless you take an archetype that alters Bloodline your Bloodrager WILL be a Primalist.

    But still saying that you have to look at the class itself to place it and stop thinking about that class X overshadows it. Elsewise Cleric, Druid and so on wouldn't be at T1 since Wizards do it better, always. That said the Barbarian is, at least in my opinion and reading of the rules, in the center of T4 while the Bloodrager is most likely at the border to T3... that said a barbarian could survive only taking Power Attack and Guarded Life (? or how the not dieing feat is called) and invest his feats into other things that give him some much needed out of combat help. Although I don't really know the assumes Meta for Barbarians anymore... (last barbarian I built was around the release of Ultimate Combat).
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    Default Re: Retiering the Classes (PF): Barbarian, Bloodrager, Fighter, Cavalier, Samurai

    Quote Originally Posted by Krazzman View Post
    But still saying that you have to look at the class itself to place it and stop thinking about that class X overshadows it. Elsewise Cleric, Druid and so on wouldn't be at T1 since Wizards do it better, always. That said the Barbarian is, at least in my opinion and reading of the rules, in the center of T4 while the Bloodrager is most likely at the border to T3... that said a barbarian could survive only taking Power Attack and Guarded Life (? or how the not dieing feat is called) and invest his feats into other things that give him some much needed out of combat help. Although I don't really know the assumes Meta for Barbarians anymore... (last barbarian I built was around the release of Ultimate Combat).
    Agreed with all of the above completely, but just to finish my thoughts:


    I don't deny for a moment that Primalist is (very) good - which is why I said it can possibly be elevated a tier. But how good it is compared to the alternative does depend on variables, notably the bloodline chosen; Abyssal does indeed have some less useful bloodline powers that you won't miss much, and having the option to trade those for rage powers is great. But you can just as easily make the argument that you hobbled yourself out of the gate by picking a weak bloodline like Abyssal in the first place, rather than simply picking a good bloodline like Aberrant instead. Using that perspective, Primalist is merely correcting your suboptimal choice, rather than truly elevating your class.

    Quote Originally Posted by Krazzman View Post
    And unless you take an archetype that alters Bloodline your Bloodrager WILL be a Primalist.
    Or unless you play PFS (where it is banned). And as noted above, there are indeed bloodlines where you can be quite comfortable not trading any of the powers out, or alternatively, doing so for their bloodline familiar rather than rage powers.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  10. - Top - End - #70
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    Default Re: Retiering the Classes (PF): Barbarian, Bloodrager, Fighter, Cavalier, Samurai

    I don't see how one bloodline power, five bonus feats and mainly martial 4th level spellcasting changes the flexibility of Bloodrager sufficiently to be considered Tier 3, or changes the power level needed to succeed as a Martial to the point that everything else gets demoted to Tier 4.

    Could be wrong about the former, pretty sure I'm not about the latter.

    edit: Took too long to post it, ninja'ed.
    Last edited by Peat; 2017-03-06 at 05:05 PM.

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    Default Re: Retiering the Classes (PF): Barbarian, Bloodrager, Fighter, Cavalier, Samurai

    Quote Originally Posted by Peat View Post
    I don't see how one bloodline power, five bonus feats and mainly martial 4th level spellcasting changes the flexibility of Bloodrager sufficiently to be considered Tier 3, or changes the power level needed to succeed as a Martial to the point that everything else gets demoted to Tier 4.

    Could be wrong about the former, pretty sure I'm not about the latter.

    edit: Took too long to post it, ninja'ed.
    You aren't. While the bloodrager indeed gets some really really nice goodies like class in-built availablity of flight and some other things the supposed melee power depends on Bloodlines.
    As Psyren said there are good and bad bloodlines alike. Abyssal gets you a really big amount of Str Bonus (I believe around +14 str while bloodraging) but doesn't really get you anything else except inbuilt enlarge person.
    You have some BFC available to you (although your DC's will probably not be strong enough to be really good) and at least some other good spells. (Although Draconic might take the cake in usefulness giving you Fly (spell) and another form of movement.
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    Default Re: Retiering the Classes (PF): Barbarian, Bloodrager, Fighter, Cavalier, Samurai

    Barbarian: T4. Full bab, d12 HD, rage and rage powers - some of which provide truly unique and very strong melee abilities, including things which don't primarily increase DPR *GASP!*, but which instead give pretty solid control and debuff/anti-caster power. I find it humorous, and oh so well deserved, that the barb (or primalist bloodrager) can be made into a better dispeller than any other class in the game AFAIK. (A barb can easily end up with a sunder CMB well above +60, which means most opponents below CR 25 or so tend to quickly get stripped of their magic). Mid to high T4 in most cases (although certain MC builds primarily based on barbarian could be T3).

    Bloodrager (generally): T4. As others have said, it's basically barbarian+, trading rage powers and an average of 1 hp/level for 4/9 casting and combat oriented bloodline powers and bonus feats. I've built, played and GM:ed for a lot of bloodragers, and would say it's definitely the strongest full bab class in PF (excluding one or two archetypes of pallys). But despite potentially great strengths, like being able to end up second only to synths in DPR competitions, having a melee reach also second only to eidolons, or being able to fly and become invisible, the bloodrager is generally still very combat focused without being a significantly more powerful combatant than say a barb, so it ends up just shy of T3 IMO.

    Bloodrager (Arcane bloodline and/or Primalist archetype): T3. The arcane bloodline, granting the effects of great buff spells like displacement, haste and beast shape IV for free at no action cost, along with great bonus feats and other goodies, is simply too strong to keep the bloodrager in T4 IMO. Makes for a very durable and versatile combatant. Likewise, the ability to exchange the weakest bloodline powers for the strongest rage powers makes for a pretty significant power boost, especially since for a large majority of bloodragers, not one single bloodline actually consists entirely of powers all worth two of the best rage powers. Unlike the base class, these bloodragers really are T3, and together with certain pally archetypes they're the only full bab Paizo alternatives that actually manage to rise above T4 IMO.

    Fighter: T4. Pretty significant variations depending on archetypes, AAT/AWT etc, but provided the weakest older trap options are avoided, the fighter has become a rather solid low to mid T4. Still suffers from the general Paizo/3.5 melee issues though (boring repeating full attacks to deal damage, mostly pointless passive durability and no actual defender abilities).

    Cavalier: T5. A high charge damage output alone hardly makes for a competent adventurer, even if coupled with some very minor leader abilities. Makes many more recent fighter builds look like extremely adaptable tactical geniuses, which I hope says it all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sayt View Post
    T5 is, to quote JaronK, "Capable of doing only one thing, and not necessarily all that well, or so unfocused that they have trouble mastering anything, and in many types of encounters the character cannot contribute.
    I'd like to point out that I assume Gnaeus intends us to follow the same guidelines as in the 3.5 retiering threads (started by eggynack), and those are not using JaronK's original definitions of the tiers, but an updated reworked and IMO more sensible system. If my assumptions are correct, I really urge people to read up on what has changed before posting any votes.

    @Gnaeus: Might be a good idea to clearly state in the OP that JaronK's original Tier System has been tweaked and that people should read up on the new stuff before voting (provided you intended us to use the same system as in eggynack's 3.5 threads of course).

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    And depending on the bloodline, you may very well be weaker than a basic Bloodrager if you give away all (or even any) of your bloodline powers like you've proposed.
    I actually don't think this is ever the case. Not one single bloodline is made up of only strong (level 4 - 20) powers AFAIK, which means a primalist who makes the right trades is always going to end up stronger than the equivalent non-primalist build. But maybe I'm wrong. Which bloodline would you say is only consisting of powers clearly stronger than two rage powers?

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    Default Re: Retiering the Classes (PF): Barbarian, Bloodrager, Fighter, Cavalier, Samurai

    Quote Originally Posted by upho View Post
    Unlike the base class, these bloodragers really are T3, and together with certain pally archetypes they're the only full bab Paizo alternatives that actually manage to rise above T4 IMO.

    Fighter: T4. Pretty significant variations depending on archetypes, AAT/AWT etc, but provided the weakest older trap options are avoided, the fighter has become a rather solid low to mid T4. Still suffers from the general Paizo/3.5 melee issues though (boring repeating full attacks to deal damage, mostly pointless passive durability and no actual defender abilities).
    You do not consider Martial Master based Fighters to achieve T3? What are they missing?

    ----

    I've seen very little discussion of Samurai. They get a very beneficial RAW malfunction, giving them all the fighter's class features if taken at face value:
    his samurai levels count as fighter levels and stack.
    Last edited by Bucky; 2017-03-09 at 02:03 AM.
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    Default Re: Retiering the Classes (PF): Barbarian, Bloodrager, Fighter, Cavalier, Samurai

    Quote Originally Posted by upho View Post
    I actually don't think this is ever the case. Not one single bloodline is made up of only strong (level 4 - 20) powers AFAIK, which means a primalist who makes the right trades is always going to end up stronger than the equivalent non-primalist build. But maybe I'm wrong. Which bloodline would you say is only consisting of powers clearly stronger than two rage powers?
    Aberrant was my main thought; the first-level ability isn't great, but that slot competes with Bloodline Familiar too, which generally adds far more utility to your build than a couple of level 1 rage powers would. I likely wouldn't trade any of the rest.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Retiering the Classes (PF): Barbarian, Bloodrager, Fighter, Cavalier, Samurai

    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    You do not consider Martial Master based Fighters to achieve T3? What are they missing?

    ----

    I've seen very little discussion of Samurai. They get a very beneficial RAW malfunction, giving them all the fighter's class features if taken at face value:
    Martial Master isn't that great anymore. Fighter can what, get 5 daily uses of Barroom Brawler at levels 10-11 for a couple feats, and short of the very long feat chains, it works for most stuff he needs to pick up. And Martial Master trades out Weapon Training, locking the fighter out of stuff like Advanced Weapon Training>Item Mastery shenanigans.
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    Default Re: Retiering the Classes (PF): Barbarian, Bloodrager, Fighter, Cavalier, Samurai

    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    You do not consider Martial Master based Fighters to achieve T3? What are they missing?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tuvarkz View Post
    Martial Master isn't that great anymore. Fighter can what, get 5 daily uses of Barroom Brawler at levels 10-11 for a couple feats, and short of the very long feat chains, it works for most stuff he needs to pick up. And Martial Master trades out Weapon Training, locking the fighter out of stuff like Advanced Weapon Training>Item Mastery shenanigans.
    What Tuvarkz said. So while Martial Master may surely increase versatility a bit, it does come at a quite hefty opportunity cost. And simply comparing the MM fighter with for example the barbarian should tell you that martial flex feats are unfortunately not enough for T3.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Aberrant was my main thought; the first-level ability isn't great, but that slot competes with Bloodline Familiar too, which generally adds far more utility to your build than a couple of level 1 rage powers would. I likely wouldn't trade any of the rest.
    Aberrant is undoubtedly one of the stronger bloodlines also IMO (largely dependent on build goals etc of course), but for example the immunities of the 8th-level power can also be gained through the Internal Fortitude rage power, meaning the Primalist Aberrant ends up with a +1 rage power net gain by replacing it, without losing anything at all. IME, the most significant (mechanical) reason for taking the Aberrant is the 4th-level Abnormal Reach, for a rare threatening reach increase stacking with other such options. Great for melee control focused builds, especially when complemented with certain rage powers (like CaGM).

    Reminder: I think you actually already know this, but you cannot trade your 1st-level power for rage powers. So there's rarely any competition between Primalist and Bloodline Familiar anyways (theoretically, I guess there may actually be in the case of certain rare natural attack builds).

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    Default Re: Retiering the Classes (PF): Barbarian, Bloodrager, Fighter, Cavalier, Samurai

    Who's going to trade out all their bloodline powers for rage powers anyway? Anyone sensible with mix and match the best ones.

    Also - jumping the gun a little - but which Paladin archetypes are you thinking Upho?

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    Default Re: Retiering the Classes (PF): Barbarian, Bloodrager, Fighter, Cavalier, Samurai

    Quote Originally Posted by Peat View Post
    Who's going to trade out all their bloodline powers for rage powers anyway? Anyone sensible with mix and match the best ones.
    Of course not. The question was whether not trading any bloodline powers for rage powers could ever be considered the best choice. Which I don't think it can. IOW, Primalist is always going to be better than non-Primalist (maybe not considerably better, but still).

    Quote Originally Posted by Peat View Post
    Also - jumping the gun a little - but which Paladin archetypes are you thinking Upho?
    Mostly Empyreal Knight and Sacred Servant. Although admittedly, I haven't seen either in play for quite a while now and would have to check up on them again, and any more recent pally archetypes, before actually voting. So take my previous comments with a grain of salt.

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    Default Re: Retiering the Classes (PF): Barbarian, Bloodrager, Fighter, Cavalier, Samurai

    Tallied votes. No surprises except Bloodrager tied between 3 and 4

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    Default Re: Retiering the Classes (PF): Barbarian, Bloodrager, Fighter, Cavalier, Samurai

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnaeus View Post
    Tallied votes. No surprises except Bloodrager tied between 3 and 4
    Imo, it should be written that the build can easily cause the swing, Monstrous Physique noted as being one of the deciding factors?
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    Default Re: Retiering the Classes (PF): Barbarian, Bloodrager, Fighter, Cavalier, Samurai

    I'd like to change my vote. I don't think the bloodrager is tier 3. The spellcasting is really bad, pretty much only underpowered blasting and some buffs. Tier 4 for me.

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    Default Re: Retiering the Classes (PF): Barbarian, Bloodrager, Fighter, Cavalier, Samurai

    Barbarian: Tier 4. I-can-hit-stuff-really-hard the class

    Bloodrager: Tier 3. Everything a barbarian can do + spells. I see him as the arcane version of the Psychic Warrior.

    Fighter: Tier 4. Much, much, much better than 3.5e. Still stuck with hitting something with a pointy bit of metal. Not much to do other than that. A few archetypes (those that give spells) might push into tier 3.

    Cavalier: Tier 5. I-have-a-mount the class. Except if all you wanted was a mount, Druid, Hunter, Ranger and a ton of other archetypes of classes do it better.

    Samurai: Tier 5. Essentially an archetype of Cavalier. Nothin gin it changes the tier.
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    Default Re: Retiering the Classes (PF): Barbarian, Bloodrager, Fighter, Cavalier, Samurai

    Cavaliers have a lot going for them but ultimately fall short.

    There are a bunch of Teamwork feats that are above-par and synergize nicely. I've been in one party that built around them, sharing Seize the Moment around while a critfisher went to work. Paired Opportunist meant the extra AoOs tended to snowball. Most of the party picked up Combat Reflexes, even a back-rank caster with a reach weapon. And there were some animal companions a bit of tripping shennanigans involved as well. As a result, once the bulk of the party locked onto the target, they tended to combo off and kill them in a flurry of AoOs once any of a number of conditions were met.

    That's the ideal.

    One problem with teamwork feats is that they generally require buy-in from most of the party to be effective. Tactician means Cavalier parties don't need that buy-in; he can give the feats to any allies. Cavalier even comes with an animal companion that can take its own teamwork feats in addition to the Tactician-granted ones. This almost makes Cavaliers effective.

    Unfortunately, they're arbitrarily gimped in that respect. At low levels, they only get to shine in one or two encounters per day before they run out of Tactician uses. Their ability to share multiple teamwork feats at a time, and the flexibility to swap from a library of them on the fly, doesn't come online until level 17(!). Meanwhile, their animal companion enabler is both fragile and hard to replace.

    Ultimately, the party above opted for a Holy Tactician Paladin rather than a Cavalier, largely because of the uses per day limit.

    (Note that none of this applies to Samurai)
    Last edited by Bucky; 2017-03-15 at 11:57 AM.
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    Default Re: Retiering the Classes (PF): Barbarian, Bloodrager, Fighter, Cavalier, Samurai

    Quote Originally Posted by NamelessNPC View Post
    I'd like to change my vote. I don't think the bloodrager is tier 3. The spellcasting is really bad, pretty much only underpowered blasting and some buffs. Tier 4 for me.
    While I think you're generally correct, I also urge you to take a look at what you can do with the Primalist and certain bloodlines (especially Arcane). And keep in mind that the BR also has some pretty neat unique tricks for improving self-buffing action economy.

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    Default Re: Retiering the Classes (PF): Barbarian, Bloodrager, Fighter, Cavalier, Samurai

    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    Their ability to share multiple teamwork feats at a time, and the flexibility to swap from a library of them on the fly, doesn't come online until level 17(!). Meanwhile, their animal companion enabler is both fragile and hard to replace.
    This. Main reasons why cavaliers are largely restricted to their ability to deal high single-target charge damage and are relatively easily robbed of that ability.

  26. - Top - End - #86
    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: Retiering the Classes (PF): Barbarian, Bloodrager, Fighter, Cavalier, Samurai

    Quote Originally Posted by Krazzman View Post
    Why should we? Was Gestalt taken into consideration? Wounds and Vigor? Elemental Race Variants?

    I think the only optional variant that should be taken into consideration for these threads is Unchained Classes.

    Everything else in Pathfinder Unchained either changes everything for everyone (Stamina) with some that can benefit from it more than others or don't really have an effect on the Tiering.
    I think VMC can have a effect on tiering in some cases, and that fighters lose less (benefit more) from VMC than any other class. What is 5 feats to a fighter? A Lore Warden, Martial Master VMC Bard, for instance, won't really miss those feats, but will love having Bardic Knowledge (more skills!), Inspire Courage (team buff!), and a free retrain of a skill into versatile performance (even more skills). Lore Master is okay (much better in 3.p game with Knowledge Devotion on the table), and no one cares about 19th level stuff since no one plays there.

    Anyway, the LW/MM vmc Bard is a contender for t3, IMO. Especially since they are still fighters and can thus take the access feats for advanced weapon and/or armor training if desired or use martial flexibility to grab important ones on the fly (which can grant a number of different skills too). I'm not sure if any other build quite manages T3, but that one squeaks in due to extreme flexibility in and out of combat.

    I agree that most other VMCs aren't worth mentioning. Certainly nothing for barbarian, bloodrager, cavalier, or samurai springs to mind.

  27. - Top - End - #87
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    Default Re: Retiering the Classes (PF): Barbarian, Bloodrager, Fighter, Cavalier, Samurai

    Quote Originally Posted by Kitsuneymg View Post
    I think VMC can have a effect on tiering in some cases, and that fighters lose less (benefit more) from VMC than any other class. What is 5 feats to a fighter? A Lore Warden, Martial Master VMC Bard, for instance, won't really miss those feats, but will love having Bardic Knowledge (more skills!), Inspire Courage (team buff!), and a free retrain of a skill into versatile performance (even more skills). Lore Master is okay (much better in 3.p game with Knowledge Devotion on the table), and no one cares about 19th level stuff since no one plays there.

    Anyway, the LW/MM vmc Bard is a contender for t3, IMO. Especially since they are still fighters and can thus take the access feats for advanced weapon and/or armor training if desired or use martial flexibility to grab important ones on the fly (which can grant a number of different skills too). I'm not sure if any other build quite manages T3, but that one squeaks in due to extreme flexibility in and out of combat.

    I agree that most other VMCs aren't worth mentioning. Certainly nothing for barbarian, bloodrager, cavalier, or samurai springs to mind.
    So basically it's worthless unless going on a class that swims in feats, and is most likely the reason behind the feat bloat, and even then only for 2 or 3 options of this system?

    While VMC might be implemented at a specific table it is unfeasible in a discussion about the tiering of the class itself. Because with VMC the Fighter is no longer a Fighter he would be a Fighter VMC Bard.
    Have a nice Day,
    Krazzman

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