Overwatch: Boop!

[Thialfi]

I really like the Junkenstein's revenge thing. When my son first got me to play my favorite part was the Uprising PVE stuff. They aren't doing me any favors with the character restrictions. Soldier is right up my alley, but Ana, Hanzo, and McCree have this dependence on quick aiming thing going on that I do not excel at. I've never actually given Ana a fair shot, but I'm starting to think that staying scoped and focusing mainly on healing right by the door might be my best move if somebody snags Soldier ahead of me.

[Psyren]

Except it has multiple more purposes than that, including stopping charging Reinhardts from afar before they can get to your team, sleeping Roadhogs when they're pulling a hook so that they can't finish off the hookee, and getting Bastions off of their turret mode.

Exactly, it has those purposes now because of its range. I'm proposing that it shouldn't. So it would be a buff to the floor and a nerf to the ceiling, keeping her from being a must-pick the way D.Va used to be.

[Togath]

I really like the Junkenstein's revenge thing. When my son first got me to play my favorite part was the Uprising PVE stuff. They aren't doing me any favors with the character restrictions. Soldier is right up my alley, but Ana, Hanzo, and McCree have this dependence on quick aiming thing going on that I do not excel at. I've never actually given Ana a fair shot, but I'm starting to think that staying scoped and focusing mainly on healing right by the door might be my best move if somebody snags Soldier ahead of me.

Makes sense. Might be worth trying Torbjorn in endless too? And Ana can be surprisingly fun in this mode in general. Her grenade is great for battling the Witch or Junkenstein's Monster.

[The_Jackal]

Makes sense. Might be worth trying Torbjorn in endless too?

He's the best. IMO, the top lineup is McCree, Zenyatta, Torb, and Soldier76. Hanzo or Widow can also do well in the Soldier slot, if you're really on point with your headshots.

And Ana can be surprisingly fun in this mode in general. Her grenade is great for battling the Witch or Junkenstein's Monster.

Ana's best situated on the shelf to the right of the door, where she can get good line of sight to her team, and pitch in shooting Zomnics. Her biotic grenade is great for damaging packs of Zomnics, finishing off rip-tires, healing teammates, and most importantly, stopping Junkenstein's Monster from taking a breather. I'd avoid staying scoped in too much, your hipfire is just as effective, and gives you better situational awareness.

[Rising Phoenix]

Exactly, it has those purposes now because of its range. I'm proposing that it shouldn't. So it would be a buff to the floor and a nerf to the ceiling, keeping her from being a must-pick the way D.Va used to be.

The only reason Ana was a must pick was the utterly broken grenade. The sleep dark was and is good, but it was never the primary reason for her high pick rate.

ATM Ana has nil mobility and even with the toned down mercy I don't think she will be able to compete for the main healer spot.

Mercy+Ana is generally not good because you don't have defensive ults.
Mercy+Lucio/Zen is fantastic. You have the rez and the defensive ults to keep mercy alive during Valkyrie when the enemy is popping their ults.
Ana+Lucio is great when you are running rein, though you don't have rez...
Ana+ zen is also great if you are not running dive. But again no rez...
Mercy+ Sym is great on point A defense and hell of annoying if you cannot kill the mercy and/or the teleporter.

[The_Jackal]

The only reason Ana was a must pick was the utterly broken grenade. The sleep dark was and is good, but it was never the primary reason for her high pick rate.

Nobody gets picked exclusively for one skill, but in essence, you're right, her grenade is a far more flexible, important part of her kit, in particular, making enemy flankers climb through 300 health to kill her. That said, I would not endorse any change which would make her sleep dart easier to use, even at the expense of range. It's already a hail-mary abililty, worst against the enemies that are most dangerous to her, and on a punishingly long cooldown. Ironically, it's better for neutralizing enemy ultimates, like Whole Hog, Rocket Barrage, and High Noon, than it is for stopping flankers.

ATM Ana has nil mobility and even with the toned down mercy I don't think she will be able to compete for the main healer spot.

I think it depends on what rez timings Mercy comes out of the test server with, TBH. She matches up really well against Zenyatta, being able to mostly neutralize Transcendence with her grenade. If they'd revert the completely unwarranted nerf of her primary fire, she could also be of some use deterring Pharamercy as well.

Mercy+Ana is generally not good because you don't have defensive ults.
Mercy+Lucio/Zen is fantastic. You have the rez and the defensive ults to keep mercy alive during Valkyrie when the enemy is popping their ults.
Ana+Lucio is great when you are running rein, though you don't have rez...
Ana+ zen is also great if you are not running dive. But again no rez...
Mercy+ Sym is great on point A defense and hell of annoying if you cannot kill the mercy and/or the teleporter.

The main thing is that there's generally a requirement for one 'main' healer, and one 'off' healer. Zen/Lucio is a high-risk combination, as the maximum single-target throughput they can amount to is ~77 health per second. By contrast, Mercy/Zen can do 90, Mercy/Lucio can do 106, and Lucio/Ana can pump out nearly 160 per second. That's really why you need either Ana or Mercy. Ana has more burst throughput on her heals, Mercy can simply undo player deaths, the other two really don't have the kind of protection you can rely on, outside of their ultimates. That's why, above all, I'd like to see a few more healer options added to the mix, both main and off-healers.

[Psyren]

The only reason Ana was a must pick was the utterly broken grenade. The sleep dark was and is good, but it was never the primary reason for her high pick rate.

ATM Ana has nil mobility and even with the toned down mercy I don't think she will be able to compete for the main healer spot.

Her lack of mobility is the point behind buffing the dart though.

Mercy+Ana is generally not good because you don't have defensive ults.

Well, yes and no... Valkyrie's chain heal is defensive, as is the ability of your healer to AoE heal from range/elevation, something none of the others can do. It's got nothing on Sound Barrier or Transcendence but it's something. and doesn't put you right in the fray like those do.

Ironically, it's better for neutralizing enemy ultimates, like Whole Hog, Rocket Barrage, and High Noon, than it is for stopping flankers.

Oh it is, I'm not denying that. My question is, should it be.

Another nerf idea is if the dart actually didn't stop an enemy ult cold, but instead slowed them down or diminished it in some way, like a tranquilizer. i.e. if you're not ulting you get put to sleep but if you are ulting, the adrenaline (or omnic equivalent) keeps you at least somewhat awake.

That's why, above all, I'd like to see a few more healer options added to the mix, both main and off-healers.

I agree with this too; it's almost as bad as the primary tank situation.

[Rising Phoenix]

Nobody gets picked exclusively for one skill, but in essence, you're right, her grenade is a far more flexible, important part of her kit, in particular, making enemy flankers climb through 300 health to kill her. That said, I would not endorse any change which would make her sleep dart easier to use, even at the expense of range. It's already a hail-mary abililty, worst against the enemies that are most dangerous to her, and on a punishingly long cooldown. Ironically, it's better for neutralizing enemy ultimates, like Whole Hog, Rocket Barrage, and High Noon, than it is for stopping flankers.



I think it depends on what rez timings Mercy comes out of the test server with, TBH. She matches up really well against Zenyatta, being able to mostly neutralize Transcendence with her grenade. If they'd revert the completely unwarranted nerf of her primary fire, she could also be of some use deterring Pharamercy as well.



The main thing is that there's generally a requirement for one 'main' healer, and one 'off' healer. Zen/Lucio is a high-risk combination, as the maximum single-target throughput they can amount to is ~77 health per second. By contrast, Mercy/Zen can do 90, Mercy/Lucio can do 106, and Lucio/Ana can pump out nearly 160 per second. That's really why you need either Ana or Mercy. Ana has more burst throughput on her heals, Mercy can simply undo player deaths, the other two really don't have the kind of protection you can rely on, outside of their ultimates. That's why, above all, I'd like to see a few more healer options added to the mix, both main and off-healers.

Agreed.

But rez is just sooo strong... I've been letting tanks drops on purpose while I pocket dps. DPS gets a few picks while the rein dies. I then fly in and rez the rein which is now behind enemy lines...GG. enjoy being sammiched by a hog and a rein.

I guess Ana could turn around and try to sleep dart the rein, but if they're already down a few people that's not gonna matter much.

---
As for transcendence. The ana's I've come across in Diamond who have successfully nullified any of my trances are few and far between. In fact I've noted plenty of times when the enemy switched a healer to ana to counter me as zen because I am blocking their ults multiple times with very little success.

If my team mates generally die in a trance it's generally because the enemy used an ult that would one shot them regardless.

[The_Jackal]

Oh it is, I'm not denying that. My question is, should it be.

I think so. Generally you want asymmetry in your Hero strengths. Flankers are supposed to be a threat to your healers, and then other Heroes should have tools to stymie and neutralize flankers, then the team with better teamwork wins. The problem is mostly that the matchmaking system does everything in its power to thwart the building of teams.

Another nerf idea is if the dart actually didn't stop an enemy ult cold, but instead slowed them down or diminished it in some way, like a tranquilizer. i.e. if you're not ulting you get put to sleep but if you are ulting, the adrenaline (or omnic equivalent) keeps you at least somewhat awake.

Again, I don't see this as a problem. If you use teamwork, sleep dart is a non-problem. Literally any other teammate can Mister President the dart, or you can drop a barrier, or just use the ult as a distraction. If Ana is concentrating on darting Pharah, then Tracer can dart in to one-clip her. In general, I like opportunites for smart, complex counter-play.

I agree with this too; it's almost as bad as the primary tank situation.

I actually think the tank situation is a bit worse, simply because of how boring most tanks are to play. Yes, there's one more tank than there are healers (Roadhog is still not a tank), but the barrier tank kits amount to 'be in the way'. It's a bit better for D.va and Zarya, but again, you need a main tank. You can actually do without an offtank, though I do think it's suboptimal.

[Winthur]

I actually think the tank situation is a bit worse, simply because of how boring most tanks are to play. Yes, there's one more tank than there are healers (Roadhog is still not a tank), but the barrier tank kits amount to 'be in the way'.

Rein has a fantastic kit for initiating battles and has absolutely game-changing abilities in a game that's generally fairly scarce with crowd control. From your description you could argue that Winston and Rein are somehow exactly the same in the way they work, which couldn't be further from the truth. I've been on a tank binge recently and it's quite astounding to me how intricate the positioning game can be. Charge in particular is a great ability that is more than meets the eye; I often use it in the middle of battles to travel very short distances, just to pin somebody down to a small corridor or to stop some sort of an ultimate. Rein has a deceptively massive ability to do damage when in an up-close teamfight, and his entire success depends on having very, very exact positioning. Winston plays completely differently; I used to completely melt in fights until I figured out maximizing his burst damage. Winston is also entirely about awareness, but in a different sense, more tied to his instant 1000 HP ultimate and mobility. I wouldn't say they're "boring to play", because if you're the kind of a person who can find engagement in calculation, keeping track of the enemy team, looking for holes, enabling opportunities etc., the OW tanks are for the most part pretty brilliant at that. I'd also argue that Winston and D.Va are a decent primer to segway into a flanking role if you're new to this game.

Really the only tank that I can safely say I'm not a fan of design-wise is Orisa, mostly because she feels quite bland outside of her Halt! and her ultimate also feels uninspired. I'm assuming she was supposed to be a sister character to Rein. I still figure that, in spite of my antipathy towards the dumbass centaur, she holds most of the same principles as Rein. Generally, tanks are in a better place and you can combine them into many more diverse combos than the healers. Hell, even Hog can take an off-tank role in a particular comp nowadays - even Competitive doesn't always strictly adhere to the 2-2-2 role, and Hog is proving to be an outstanding deterrent to flankers while making sure you win barrier standoffs with the other tank.

It's never just about "being a barrier", similarly as healing is never about just "watching a HP bar go up". Analogically, I don't figure we need more special and unique ways of healing; rather, we could probably use a new hero that simply has his healing kit tied up to some other, outstanding abilities. There's at least two supports with extremely engaging kits - Ana and Lucio (Zen too, though his is more about aim and positioning).

[The_Jackal]

Rein has a fantastic kit for initiating battles and has absolutely game-changing abilities in a game that's generally fairly scarce with crowd control.

Playing Reinhardt wrong can be fun. Playing him right, you're a wall with some cooldowns. Then there's the problem of how utterly dependent you are on your team. Your ability to deal with just about any hero with some mobility is non-existent.

From your description you could argue that Winston and Rein are somehow exactly the same in the way they work, which couldn't be further from the truth.

That's an inference I wouldn't make. Rather, they have a common problem: Lack of carry potential. You've got a fat hitbox and a barrier you use to put between your team and the enemy team. Yes, Winston has lots of mobility where Orisa has none, and Rein is somewhere in between, but at day's end, your contribution to the fight is 'Where is my barrier?'.

I've been on a tank binge recently and it's quite astounding to me how intricate the positioning game can be.

Color me un-astounded. Main tanking is about getting to where the fight has to be, and using your barrier to protect your teammates. What's so hard about walking toward the enemy team with your barrier up?

Charge in particular is a great ability that is more than meets the eye; I often use it in the middle of battles to travel very short distances, just to pin somebody down to a small corridor or to stop some sort of an ultimate. Rein has a deceptively massive ability to do damage when in an up-close teamfight, and his entire success depends on having very, very exact positioning.

Charge is super-easy to counter. I very rarely see pins, either from my own team, or the enemy. Mostly, they're just blind luck, like two coworkers colliding in the hallway carrying their drinks. More often than not, charge is followed immediately by Reinhardt being executed, as everyone in the team turns to get free shots as his massive hitbox cruises by. McCree or Ana can stun him, Junk can trap him, Sombra can hack him, lots of players can boop him, and just about everyone can get out of the way.

Winston plays completely differently; I used to completely melt in fights until I figured out maximizing his burst damage. Winston is also entirely about awareness, but in a different sense, more tied to his instant 1000 HP ultimate and mobility. I wouldn't say they're "boring to play", because if you're the kind of a person who can find engagement in calculation, keeping track of the enemy team, looking for holes, enabling opportunities etc., the OW tanks are for the most part pretty brilliant at that. I'd also argue that Winston and D.Va are a decent primer to segway into a flanking role if you're new to this game.

Winston is a lot, lot stronger, and I won't deny he's effective in his role. His job isn't that intricate, though, just jump into the backline of supports, make sure you stick the landing for the extra damage, then drop your barrier before you get ripped apart by the team that will be collapsing on you now, and use your jump to escape before you die, if things go poorly, like if your team isn't able to exploit having the front line all turn their backs on them. The ult, apart from boop shenanigans, is a 'oh ****' button, letting you disrupt the team for a while, maybe corner someone and finish them off, and escape before they sandblast you down.

They key to how you fare on Rein and Winston is how your team exploits the distraction/blocking. If they're awake, the get a chance to unload on the enemy front-line, while their supports are busy. If they're not, they just do poke-at-the-choke follies, and you die horribly, feeding the enemy team tons of ult charge, which means your supports can look forward to being blasted apart with enemy ultimates. By themselves, their range and damage potential is pretty sad. Example: Rocket Hammer does 83 DPS, which puts him behind Mercy in damage potential, unless for some reason you're fighting players who don't have the presence of mind to split up when you're fighting them. Winston has better range, but only 60 DPS. His jump damage helps out though, and the bigger area makes cleave damage more likely.

Really the only tank that I can safely say I'm not a fan of design-wise is Orisa, mostly because she feels quite bland outside of her Halt! and her ultimate also feels uninspired. I'm assuming she was supposed to be a sister character to Rein. I still figure that, in spite of my antipathy towards the dumbass centaur, she holds most of the same principles as Rein.

Not quite. I agree she's a spud, but her role is quite different. Orisa, boop shenanigans aside, is a purely defensive creature. She does have the most barrier per second that you can get, but in exchange you get a huge head hitbox, lower health total, and nobility whatsoever. She's best when you've got a narrow choke you can control, like on Eichenwalde, and suffers badly against flankers. She does have effective damage on her gun, but unfortunately she's so inaccurate as to make it all but useless except for abbrading enemy shields.

Generally, tanks are in a better place and you can combine them into many more diverse combos than the healers. Hell, even Hog can take an off-tank role in a particular comp nowadays - even Competitive doesn't always strictly adhere to the 2-2-2 role, and Hog is proving to be an outstanding deterrent to flankers while making sure you win barrier standoffs with the other tank.

Hog isn't a tank. He's a pull champion with a big hitbox. He's the most depenent on having a real tank on the team, because without one, he's just a collosal ult battery which ensures that your team will face an uphill battle the entire game. IMO, the only actually good 'main' tank is Winston, a conclusion which is strongly corroborated by how he's got nearly double the pick rate of any other tank in high-SR play.

It's never just about "being a barrier", similarly as healing is never about just "watching a HP bar go up".

Is is on Mercy. Seriously, fill health bars, fly away from flankers, keep your rez on cooldown. And I'm not saying tanks don't have other things to do than fill their barriers. I'm saying those things are very unimportant to their impact. You can play a great Reinhardt and never use your Fire Strike once, not that I would recommend it.

Analogically, I don't figure we need more special and unique ways of healing; rather, we could probably use a new hero that simply has his healing kit tied up to some other, outstanding abilities. There's at least two supports with extremely engaging kits - Ana and Lucio (Zen too, though his is more about aim and positioning).

Lucio may be engaging, but I don't find him appealing at all. I do like Ana, though I find her friendly blocker problems incredibly infuriating. For a 'sniper-healer', you're more or less forced to jog with your team and hipshot 90% of the time, because you need the ability to shift position to get parallax on the teammate who needs heals NOW. Plus it makes landing biotic nades easier.

If I was designing the game, I'd take the barriers out of the game altogether. Zarya's system is good and fun, and the current iteration of D.va's matrix is fine, and would be perfectly alright in a barrier free world. Reinhardt might be fun if you could swing your hammer and charge all the time, instead of just when your barrier's broken or when someone's silly enough to step in arm's reach. And I'd just assume that the healers in this game played more like Zen and Lucio, (and Sombra) and the main healers also were totally re-designed. The game could be just as intricate, just as fun, without demoting a teammate to 'wall bearer' or 'ranged health pack'.

[Winthur]

Playing Reinhardt wrong can be fun. Playing him right, you're a wall with some cooldowns.

You're implying there is some binary state where either Reinhardt charges in and plays DPS all the time, or stays behind his shield like a turtle and prays to god AimbotCalvin is on his team with an alt. Whereas it isn't true. This is a guy who is a Master Reinhardt player and he made a whole vignette about why it's wrong to imply that Rein exists in a binary state. You primarily pick him at all levels because he creates space. In low level Gold~ play that I witness all the time and I feel free to admit it, the space is often created much in the same way as you would with Winston, swinging your hammer wildly at enemies and scoring easy picks with that. All of the high level Rein footage implies that all of Rein's abilities see use - they HAVE to, because that's how the guy charges his ultimate, which, I argue, is half the reason to pick him (it charges fast and can win you a fight outright). It's just that the higher level you go, the more good judgment you need to exert in order to be successful.

And I'm not saying tanks don't have other things to do than fill their barriers. I'm saying those things are very unimportant to their impact. You can play a great Reinhardt and never use your Fire Strike once, not that I would recommend it.

That sounds like bull. Rein's ultimate charges REALLY fast, Fire Strike is plenty spammable and goes through all sorts of barriers. You might as well argue that you can play a great Soldier without ever using Helix Rockets if your tracking is enough to wreck your opponents and you're getting 4 golds and PotG and whatever else you might want. This is not a scenario that exists.

Your ability to deal with just about any hero with some mobility is non-existent.

Flankers generally have to get in your face to deal substantial damage to you. Tracer's effective range is at around 10 meters. OW maps are also generally built in such a way that there's plenty of closed spaces where Rein's hammer reigns supreme. Whenever two teams are fighting on the payload or contesting a point, there's a non-trivial chance that you. If you manage to hit a strong Earthshatter, you deal a LOT of damage. If your team camps bodies so that Mercy commits suicide by flying in to rez, you have a very easy time getting off free hammer hits. If you use charge in limited spaces - for instance, there's a commotion on the Payload, people are having standoffs - you can often charge someone into a very close-by wall, they die, you've been in "transit" for maybe like 2 seconds, and you're once again ready to shield everyone. esp. if reinforced by Zarya shield or similar, you can even use Charge to initiate fights - doesn't happen often, but it is possible in some situations. Recognizing those situations makes you a great Reinhardt.

That's an inference I wouldn't make. Rather, they have a common problem: Lack of carry potential. You've got a fat hitbox and a barrier you use to put between your team and the enemy team. Yes, Winston has lots of mobility where Orisa has none, and Rein is somewhere in between, but at day's end, your contribution to the fight is 'Where is my barrier?'.

I flatly do not think this is true.

Color me un-astounded. Main tanking is about getting to where the fight has to be, and using your barrier to protect your teammates. What's so hard about walking toward the enemy team with your barrier up?

Knowing when it's appropriate to walk toward the enemy team with your barrier up, where to take that barrier if a frontline approach isn't working (i.e. there's a Bastion shredding your shield and you need to find cover and get everyone safely behind that cover),

Charge is super-easy to counter. I very rarely see pins, either from my own team, or the enemy. Mostly, they're just blind luck, like two coworkers colliding in the hallway carrying their drinks. More often than not, charge is followed immediately by Reinhardt being executed, as everyone in the team turns to get free shots as his massive hitbox cruises by. McCree or Ana can stun him, Junk can trap him, Sombra can hack him, lots of players can boop him, and just about everyone can get out of the way.

I agree that long-range hail mary charges like you're playing NBA Hangtime and the clock says it's 3 seconds on a 68-69 Hornets vs Bullets match are not a reliable way to play Rein, which is why I argued for using them once the battle starts, because with good prediction and using the chaos in combat it is more likely you're going to hit the charge, especially against other fat hitbox targets.

Besides, you're arguing that all of those characters are absolutely going to be present in any game. In reality, it's really easy to just check TAB and see who is a threat to my charge, and update my playstyle accordingly. Let's take the most meta team in competitive play a while ago, with Winston / D.Va / Lucio / Zen / Tracer / Genji. Now, aside from the fact that this dive meta team comp has plenty of strength against Reinhardt, even this most meta teamcomp can only steer Rein off course with Lucio.

Or do you also just blindly pick a "meta" tank like Winston and refuse to switch even if the enemy team has Reaper, Roadhog and McCree?

Winston is a lot, lot stronger, and I won't deny he's effective in his role. His job isn't that intricate, though, just jump into the backline of supports, make sure you stick the landing for the extra damage, then drop your barrier before you get ripped apart by the team that will be collapsing on you now, and use your jump to escape before you die, if things go poorly, like if your team isn't able to exploit having the front line all turn their backs on them. The ult, apart from boop shenanigans, is a 'oh ****' button, letting you disrupt the team for a while, maybe corner someone and finish them off, and escape before they sandblast you down.

I will still maintain that while the monkey is a simple enough champion to play, enough to earn derision from players, just following the above like a guideline isn't going to magically get you SR. There's enough engagement in reacting to certain enemy picks and maximizing your HP pool by doing the Barrier Dance that I don't think Winston is truly boring. I am very, very much in favor of the "more than meets the eye" evaluation of kits. Hell, even the humble melee punch is something that can make Winston much trickier to play - you amplify your burst damage if you land on an enemy and punch them at the same time, and you can also kill off someone with a quick melee faster than your electric gun would otherwise let you, which might be absolutely clutch in some instances. There's also enough to controlling your jump pack to not overshoot it that I will maintain that Winston is still engaging.

Hog isn't a tank. He's a pull champion with a big hitbox. He's the most depenent on having a real tank on the team

Which is exactly why I proposed putting him in a team that already has a main tank.

Lucio may be engaging, but I don't find him appealing at all.

Lucio is ridiculously engaging, no matter what you might think about him.

[Psyren]

I think so. Generally you want asymmetry in your Hero strengths. Flankers are supposed to be a threat to your healers, and then other Heroes should have tools to stymie and neutralize flankers, then the team with better teamwork wins. The problem is mostly that the matchmaking system does everything in its power to thwart the building of teams.

I know that, but I don't think buffing her dart would make flankers suddenly incapable of taking her down. It would just make it so you don't need jedi reflexes to stop even a medium Genji or Tracer from slaughtering you. Right now, they barely have to play around the dart at all, because most Anas miss.

Again, I don't see this as a problem. If you use teamwork, sleep dart is a non-problem. Literally any other teammate can Mister President the dart, or you can drop a barrier, or just use the ult as a distraction. If Ana is concentrating on darting Pharah, then Tracer can dart in to one-clip her. In general, I like opportunites for smart, complex counter-play.

You'd still have that tradeoff if the dart was buffed. (Though if the range was nerfed, darting Pharah would be a lot harder, which I'm okay with because Ana can already easily take Pharah down.)

I actually think the tank situation is a bit worse, simply because of how boring most tanks are to play. Yes, there's one more tank than there are healers (Roadhog is still not a tank), but the barrier tank kits amount to 'be in the way'. It's a bit better for D.va and Zarya, but again, you need a main tank. You can actually do without an offtank, though I do think it's suboptimal.

My point exactly - there's one main tank option currently, two if you squint.

[Velaryon]

I really like the Junkenstein's revenge thing. When my son first got me to play my favorite part was the Uprising PVE stuff. They aren't doing me any favors with the character restrictions. Soldier is right up my alley, but Ana, Hanzo, and McCree have this dependence on quick aiming thing going on that I do not excel at. I've never actually given Ana a fair shot, but I'm starting to think that staying scoped and focusing mainly on healing right by the door might be my best move if somebody snags Soldier ahead of me.

Agreed. I loved Junkenstein's Revenge last year, when it was the first time we'd gotten a PvE event we could play. Now, all I can think about is how Uprising was SO much better. I would really have preferred that they update Junkenstein with the lessons learned from the last year. Instead, they added Symmetra and called it a day.

The "endless" waves mode is a nice addition, but I don't see any good reason why it doesn't allow all characters, or why the particular ones were chosen. Why do they add Genji, Widowmaker, Torb, and Zenyatta but NOT Bastion, Pharah, or Orisa? It's dumb. They should have just made that an "all heroes" mode and maybe revamped the stage a bit or made it bigger. It's still nice, but it could have been so much better.

I actually think the tank situation is a bit worse, simply because of how boring most tanks are to play. Yes, there's one more tank than there are healers (Roadhog is still not a tank), but the barrier tank kits amount to 'be in the way'. It's a bit better for D.va and Zarya, but again, you need a main tank. You can actually do without an offtank, though I do think it's suboptimal.

I'd argue that D.Va should only count for half anymore.

[Togath]

Part of why they didn't add more likely had to do something with all the extra voice lines Torb, Zen, Widow, and Genji get, if I had to guess, plus you can do it with all-heroes via a custom game.

[Velaryon]

Part of why they didn't add more likely had to do something with all the extra voice lines Torb, Zen, Widow, and Genji get, if I had to guess, plus you can do it with all-heroes via a custom game.

You can, but custom games are a pain in the butt. You have to go all the trouble of setting the parameters and making the match, and then it takes forever to find people for the match because the number of people who play custom matches is way fewer than play other modes in the Arcade.

[The_Jackal]

You can, but custom games are a pain in the butt. You have to go all the trouble of setting the parameters and making the match, and then it takes forever to find people for the match because the number of people who play custom matches is way fewer than play other modes in the Arcade.

Yeah, that's just not happening. Besides, I think they allowed have too many options for endless mode, because, TBH, Genji is hopeless in this mode. Speaking of hopeless, I really wish they'd stop doing these 'take no damage' achievements, because it just generates leavers.

[Guancyto]

There's a reason they didn't add Bastion or Orisa, it's because (like Uprising) a Bastion/Orisa team would be insanely dominant in this mode to the point of making almost everyone else obsolete. To tell the truth I'm surprised they added Torbjorn.

They also didn't add anybody with splash damage (except on ults), or anybody with forced movement (D.Va, Lucio). Of heroes that wouldn't either be useless (Tracer, Sombra) or far far too useful (Reinhardt would basically make the door immune to zomnics, also he's telling the story!), or have forced movement (which would screw up Junkenstein and be exploitable as heck with everyone else), or have splash damage (Pharah), who's left?

[Togath]

Yeah, that's just not happening. Besides, I think they allowed have too many options for endless mode, because, TBH, Genji is hopeless in this mode. Speaking of hopeless, I really wish they'd stop doing these 'take no damage' achievements, because it just generates leavers.

So I didn't quite get this... until I tried playing Genji in it.
His attacks take off just a third(or sometimes half) of most zomnic's hp, let alone the tiny amount from bosses, while his parry is also not usable much(and the enemy with the scariest damage tends to be the dragon... who cant have attacks deflected back at her).
I mean, his ult can be kinda nice versus big swarms or bosses, but outside of that he's really weak compared to most of the other heroes(especially Torb and 76).

[Rising Phoenix]

Mercy and Lucio changes are live. Res during valk has been nerfed, lucio speed whilst wall riding has been buffed. I don't think this will change the fact that Ana is still quite weak in the dive meta...Give nana a boost already blizzard.

[Lord Fullbladder, Master of Goblins]

So I didn't quite get this... until I tried playing Genji in it.
His attacks take off just a third(or sometimes half) of most zomnic's hp, let alone the tiny amount from bosses, while his parry is also not usable much(and the enemy with the scariest damage tends to be the dragon... who cant have attacks deflected back at her).
I mean, his ult can be kinda nice versus big swarms or bosses, but outside of that he's really weak compared to most of the other heroes(especially Torb and 76).

You know, even after having to keep Genjis alive four separate times as Zenyatta (or Ana, who mocks my aiming skills), I still thought 'he must be kind of good, people keep picking him,' so I tried him out. And this was after failing endless on normal a few times because the same freaking idiot kept choosing Genji and quitting right away, so that's how delusional I let myself be there.

I like that sometimes when the door hits half health Narrator Reinhardt will say that "the heroes despaired their need for a shield!"

[Psyren]

Mercy and Lucio changes are live. Res during valk has been nerfed, lucio speed whilst wall riding has been buffed. I don't think this will change the fact that Ana is still quite weak in the dive meta...Give nana a boost already blizzard.

If not the dart, what would such a boost look like?

[Winthur]

If not the dart, what would such a boost look like?

Make her deal more damage. If it's a problem to buff her autoattack back to 75 without further changes, make her attack a slower-working DoT effect than it already is - would fit the character's method of attack based on bio-weaponry, nullify any issues you might have with Ana being an annoying sniper that three-shots you out of nowhere, and flankers whose health would be ticking down fast and hot would have to leave you alone and look for a health pack or healer before the DoT eats you up.

Either that, or have the hero you hit get a stacking debuff that brings up your damage by a fraction. If the first hit on a character deals 60 damage to him, then the next one deals 70. It would allow for better defense against flankers (3 hits to kill a Genji over 4) and still works with the "shoot your goo, my dude" feel she has. Basically, her own, little, personal Zenyatta-style effect that rewards tracking the same target multiple times. She still shouldn't take over Zenyatta as designated tank-buster and burst damage deliverer.

Either that, or have successful autoattacks on enemies decrease the cooldown on your dart.

I really do think any issues with her should be worked through by looking at her autoattacks since there's a ton of finesse in the way you have to use hip-fire, scope and quick-scope to deal the most efficient healing and I think Ana just needs a little nudge that already rewards people who have a decent grasp on her while not erasing the entire identity of her beautiful little dart. As I said, I believe cutting down the dart's versatility - and, honestly, fun in use - in favor of ease of use would not be a welcome change for me.

Just a little boost, nothing big. Really minor, in fact. You could call it a nano boost, it's so small.

[Velaryon]

Yeah, that's just not happening. Besides, I think they allowed have too many options for endless mode, because, TBH, Genji is hopeless in this mode. Speaking of hopeless, I really wish they'd stop doing these 'take no damage' achievements, because it just generates leavers.

They allowed players to use all characters for Uprising, which is just one of many reasons that event was significantly better than Junkenstein's Revenge. It's definitely puzzling why they chose the characters they did for the endless mode. It's almost like they were picked at random.

There's a reason they didn't add Bastion or Orisa, it's because (like Uprising) a Bastion/Orisa team would be insanely dominant in this mode to the point of making almost everyone else obsolete. To tell the truth I'm surprised they added Torbjorn.

They also didn't add anybody with splash damage (except on ults), or anybody with forced movement (D.Va, Lucio). Of heroes that wouldn't either be useless (Tracer, Sombra) or far far too useful (Reinhardt would basically make the door immune to zomnics, also he's telling the story!), or have forced movement (which would screw up Junkenstein and be exploitable as heck with everyone else), or have splash damage (Pharah), who's left?

I've played Bastion in a custom Junkenstein's game. It's not as easy as you'd think, because those Zombardiers will tear him apart if Bastion stays in turret mode too long and doesn't take them out immediately. He's definitely effective, but he gets beaten up hard as well. Pairing with Orisa definitely helps, but even then it's not as much of a win button as you'd think at first, because of the insane amounts of difficulty scaling in endless mode.

Again, I point back to Uprising. They allowed all characters in that mode, even the most powerful ones (Bastion, Torb, etc.) and the stupid ones that nobody should ever bring into that mode (Mei). And that was an event that had actual canon story going on in its more limited mode. So if it works there, I see no reason it couldn't be done for Junkenstein. All I can think of is because of the added voice lines for the chosen characters in endless mode, and if that's the only reason then I would frankly rather not have those voice lines at all, and have the field open to all characters instead.

[Winthur]

It's not as easy as you'd think, because those Zombardiers will tear him apart if Bastion stays in turret mode too long and doesn't take them out immediately.

I don't think it's that big of a deal when you can just have someone in your team actually good at this task kill the person. Hanzo, Widow, Soldier and McCree are already on the roster of viable Zombardier removal.

Bastion would be an extremely efficient boss killer (especially with Nano-Boost or Zenyatta's discord), the best wave clear and a non-effort rip-tire smasher, he also has a self-heal so your Ana/Zen can just afk on you, and his ult would probably nuke Summoner and Witch, or maybe even Junkenstein himself. All of that without really having to leave your turret mode. Even Torbjorn has to hustle a tiny bit here and there, esp. if he's the designated Shield Generator destroyer (which he might very well be, as Molten Core lets you Rambo quite a bit). Just... not very interactive for everyone involved and would probably be a must-pick.

Besides, Bastion just doesn't fit the fairy-tale theme. There's no archetype that really fits him in the tale - maybe some sort of a golem.

[The_Jackal]

I've played Bastion in a custom Junkenstein's game. It's not as easy as you'd think, because those Zombardiers will tear him apart if Bastion stays in turret mode too long and doesn't take them out immediately. He's definitely effective, but he gets beaten up hard as well.

All getting Zombadier shots should mean is that your healer generates a lot of ult charge. I'm not sure what my 'ideal' unlimited Zomnic comp would be, but I'm pretty sure Bastion would be in it. Really, he's just there to tunnel through bosses and the regular zomnics, and let his teammates focus on prioritizing the zombadiers.

[Togath]

I like that sometimes when the door hits half health Narrator Reinhardt will say that "the heroes despaired their need for a shield!"

I noticed that too~ It's a cool touch.

[Psyren]

Make her deal more damage. If it's a problem to buff her autoattack back to 75 without further changes, make her attack a slower-working DoT effect than it already is - would fit the character's method of attack based on bio-weaponry, nullify any issues you might have with Ana being an annoying sniper that three-shots you out of nowhere, and flankers whose health would be ticking down fast and hot would have to leave you alone and look for a health pack or healer before the DoT eats you up.

Given how many HoTs are in the game, I'm not sure a slower DoT would help much even if the maximum damage per shot was higher. That would net out to only a small change in DPS I think, if that.

Either that, or have the hero you hit get a stacking debuff that brings up your damage by a fraction. If the first hit on a character deals 60 damage to him, then the next one deals 70. It would allow for better defense against flankers (3 hits to kill a Genji over 4) and still works with the "shoot your goo, my dude" feel she has. Basically, her own, little, personal Zenyatta-style effect that rewards tracking the same target multiple times. She still shouldn't take over Zenyatta as designated tank-buster and burst damage deliverer.

That's my worry about boosting her damage too much. She'd become Zenyatta, except hitscan and able to heal multiple allies. No discord but she can deny heals to the enemy, which is a comparable increase to party dps.

Either that, or have successful autoattacks on enemies decrease the cooldown on your dart.

I definitely like this idea. Makes a whiffed dart less punishing (which is ultimately what I'm after) while also continuing to reward skill.

[Velaryon]

I don't think it's that big of a deal when you can just have someone in your team actually good at this task kill the person. Hanzo, Widow, Soldier and McCree are already on the roster of viable Zombardier removal.

Bastion would be an extremely efficient boss killer (especially with Nano-Boost or Zenyatta's discord), the best wave clear and a non-effort rip-tire smasher, he also has a self-heal so your Ana/Zen can just afk on you, and his ult would probably nuke Summoner and Witch, or maybe even Junkenstein himself. All of that without really having to leave your turret mode. Even Torbjorn has to hustle a tiny bit here and there, esp. if he's the designated Shield Generator destroyer (which he might very well be, as Molten Core lets you Rambo quite a bit). Just... not very interactive for everyone involved and would probably be a must-pick.

Besides, Bastion just doesn't fit the fairy-tale theme. There's no archetype that really fits him in the tale - maybe some sort of a golem.

All getting Zombadier shots should mean is that your healer generates a lot of ult charge. I'm not sure what my 'ideal' unlimited Zomnic comp would be, but I'm pretty sure Bastion would be in it. Really, he's just there to tunnel through bosses and the regular zomnics, and let his teammates focus on prioritizing the zombadiers.

I'm not arguing that Bastion isn't good, even great, in this mode. I'm just saying he's not the easy win button he was made to sound like.

[The_Jackal]

Given how many HoTs are in the game, I'm not sure a slower DoT would help much even if the maximum damage per shot was higher. That would net out to only a small change in DPS I think, if that.

I agree, more DOT isn't really a great idea.

That's my worry about boosting her damage too much. She'd become Zenyatta, except hitscan and able to heal multiple allies. No discord but she can deny heals to the enemy, which is a comparable increase to party dps.

I don't think there's any danger of that. Zenyatta's raw DPS is 115 between reloads, before Discord is accounted for, and his shots can crit, Ana's can't. Boosting Ana's damage to 75 would give her 90 DPS, and with a shorter magazine, her sustain would be worse too. Then there's the matter of Zen can heal and shoot simultaneously, Ana has to choose, and can't shoot through friendlies.

I definitely like this idea. Makes a whiffed dart less punishing (which is ultimately what I'm after) while also continuing to reward skill.

I think that's got a real problem with 'win more'. Forget about the Ana alone versus flanker scenario, how about when she's just loading up enemies with biotic rifle fire, when she's un-pressured. A 5-second, ultimate-interrupting timeout is already hugely strong, shortening its cooldown is not where I'd prefer to see it go. I think a minor personal DPS increase makes her less helpless versus flankers when the dart whiffs, and also helps soft-counter Pharamercy, which, IMO, could use some soft countering.