Please tell me we are not going to have to deal with getting the sword back again

[Dr.Zero]

Really, the only parallel between Shojo and Palpatine is that arresting them might not have led to a conviction, and even that is questionable: The paladins are loyal, but not to the extent that loyalty trumps adherence to their code. If Shojo had the power to avoid arrest even if--as Miko alleged--he flagrantly violated their code, then he wouldn't have spent the past decades constantly maintaining his persona to avoid being seen violating that code.

Edit: "held back", not "head back"

Am I wrong, or the paladins in the Blue Cesspool weren't actually a police force with the right to arrest people?
I mean, I remember somewhere Hinjo saying that most of the citizens didn't even know that Sapphire Guard existed. IIRC, then it hardly seems like they can legally arrest anyone, specially if that "anyone" is actually who rules the city.

[Emanick]

There's "not appearing to be okay with it" and then there's "doing anything to change it, ever, even in the specific case of Anakin's mother."

I'm not saying you're definitely wrong, but it's obviously more complicated than that. There are, what, 2,000 Jedi? And how many planets exist in the galaxy? It seems unreasonable to expect them to solve literally every humanoid-rights atrocity in the galaxy, and/or to suggest that, by allowing any of said atrocities to continue, they implicitly condone them. Even if they wield significant influence over the Republic and its resources.

I pretty strongly disagree with the Jedi emphasis on emotional distance from family members, but given that it's a thing, it's not at all odd that they didn't go out of their way to free Anakin's mother, nor is it indicative of a tolerance for slavery. To the Jedi, she was just another oppressed being thousands of light-years away that they weren't being tasked with specifically rescuing. The Jedi don't really "tolerate" slavery anymore than we "tolerate" real-world faraway crises that we could probably solve if we put our mind to it, but that are hard to deal with and that we would have to redirect considerable resources toward to address positively.

[Keltest]

Am I wrong, or the paladins in the Blue Cesspool weren't actually a police force with the right to arrest people?
I mean, I remember somewhere Hinjo saying that most of the citizens didn't even know that Sapphire Guard existed. IIRC, then it hardly seems like they can legally arrest anyone, specially if that "anyone" is actually who rules the city.

Miko claims the rank of Samurai for Shojo on top of her rank in the Sapphire Guard, which implies that she has significant authority within the regular Azure City military structure. Depending on how Rich wanted to handle it, it could put her just below the nobles like Kubota in the civilian government as well in terms of what she can have done, though that isn't a given.

Its likely that other paladins held similar ranks within the military so that they were a part of the chain of command and could, say, order a squad of soldiers out to help them deal with a group of marauding goblins, without having to go through a bunch of red tape.

[Vinyadan]

Miko could arrest people (Belkar). (there's also a bonus strip somewhere about this, but I don't remember if it was a paladin). I think that people knew that there were paladins running around, and that they were government officials. They didn't know of the Sapphire Guard as a secret society bound on protecting the gates. But this is just my theory.

[Kish]

It seems unreasonable to expect them to solve literally every humanoid-rights atrocity in the galaxy,

It does?

So what does "the guardians of peace and justice" mean? Is it anything more than posturing? Does it mean they pushed situations toward peace and justice, to the extremely limited extent an obscure monastic order could do so, as long as it didn't interfere with their other goals? (I would consider a "yes" answer to one of those two questions to require a "no" answer to the other, btw.)

I don't know for sure what group you mean with "we," but I do know that I would scoff at any member of any candidate group that claimed "we are the guardians of peace and justice."

[Keltest]

It does?

So what does "the guardians of peace and justice" mean? Is it anything more than posturing? Does it mean they pushed situations toward peace and justice, to the extremely limited extent an obscure monastic order could do so, as long as it didn't interfere with their other goals? (I would consider a "yes" answer to one of those two questions to require a "no" answer to the other, btw.)

I don't know for sure what group you mean with "we," but I do know that I would scoff at any member of any candidate group that claimed "we are the guardians of peace and justice."

This sounds like you have awfully unrealistic expectations of them. They don't have a 'Toggle Peace Y/N" lever they can pull whenever somebody anywhere in the galaxy gets uppity. They have skills, government authority, and a generally good reputation going for them, but outside of the republic they aren't any more capable than most other lone actors at influencing the direction of entire planetary governments or cultures.

But no, they should just be able to fix all the problems in the galaxy before tea.

[Emanick]

This sounds like you have awfully unrealistic expectations of them. They don't have a 'Toggle Peace Y/N" lever they can pull whenever somebody anywhere in the galaxy gets uppity. They have skills, government authority, and a generally good reputation going for them, but outside of the republic they aren't any more capable than most other lone actors at influencing the direction of entire planetary governments or cultures.

But no, they should just be able to fix all the problems in the galaxy before tea.

This, basically. It's pretty clear that the Jedi are far from perfect, but they shouldn't be held to unrealistic standards. They have limited resources and a massive jurisdiction to "sheriff" (or whatever verb you want to use), so while I don't think their role literally just amounts to posturing, I would agree (if that's what you think too, Kish?) that calling themselves the "guardians of peace and justice" is a bit of a grandiose claim that they certainly can't fully back up.

And by "we" I basically just meant "we members of global civilization, most of whom probably have at least a minimal amount of privilege since we have the resources and leisure to read webcomics and talk about them online in our spare time." It was meant to be kind of vague, since I meant it in a collective sense.

[Dr.Zero]

Miko claims the rank of Samurai for Shojo on top of her rank in the Sapphire Guard, which implies that she has significant authority within the regular Azure City military structure. Depending on how Rich wanted to handle it, it could put her just below the nobles like Kubota in the civilian government as well in terms of what she can have done, though that isn't a given.

Its likely that other paladins held similar ranks within the military so that they were a part of the chain of command and could, say, order a squad of soldiers out to help them deal with a group of marauding goblins, without having to go through a bunch of red tape.

Miko could arrest people (Belkar). (there's also a bonus strip somewhere about this, but I don't remember if it was a paladin). I think that people knew that there were paladins running around, and that they were government officials. They didn't know of the Sapphire Guard as a secret society bound on protecting the gates. But this is just my theory.

Yes, my point was more that they might not have the right to arrest people for not adhering to the paladin code and specifically for violating sapphire guard code. (Which was what the text I quoted was talking about).

[Keltest]

Yes, my point was more that they might not have the right to arrest people for not adhering to the paladin code and specifically for violating sapphire guard code. (Which was what the text I quoted was talking about).

Even if he didn't actually do anything illegal, they have reason to be suspicious enough of Shojo's actions and motives now that he would probably need to be removed from power and taken into custody until they can verify what has and has not been the truth. He almost certainly would not remain in command of the Guard even if they didn't have the power to remove him from the throne of Azure City.

[Xyril]

Am I wrong, or the paladins in the Blue Cesspool weren't actually a police force with the right to arrest people?
I mean, I remember somewhere Hinjo saying that most of the citizens didn't even know that Sapphire Guard existed. IIRC, then it hardly seems like they can legally arrest anyone, specially if that "anyone" is actually who rules the city.

Well, that's two different questions. Legally, the Sapphire Guard has the right to arrest people if the sovereign of their state authorizes them to arrest people. I've been assuming that they have some arrest powers, since this whole thing started when Miko was sent to retrieve the Order, whether they wanted to come or not, but in a world that seems like it's basically lawless except when you're fairly close to centers of government, I suppose it's also plausible that Shojo sent Miko on an extrajudicial bag and grab mission, and Miko was both aware of this and satisfied that doing so didn't violate the Lawful in her Lawful Good code.

The fact that a police organization is secret--or at the very least, very little known--has no bearing on their legal police powers. Granted, expecting citizens to sit by and submit to arrest by a secret police is highly offensive to anyone who grew up in a modern liberal democracy, but it's not outside the realm of possibility. In fact, the situation existed in the United States, albeit to a lesser degree. Before the popularity of JAG and all the NCIS's, very few civilians knew that the armed services had their own criminal investigation services that could--under the right circumstances--assert jurisdiction over civilians. They weren't a government secret, strictly speaking, but it did lead to situation where people might be investigated or arrest by an agency they'd never heard of, and possibly subject to the same penalties for non-compliance as they would when dealing with a police agency everyone knows about. Also, we really don't know that the Sapphire Guard is a classified government secret either--it could be that they're just very low profile, acting as one of many semi-anonymous divisions within the larger police or military.

[Xyril]

They have skills, government authority, and a generally good reputation going for them, but outside of the republic they aren't any more capable than most other lone actors at influencing the direction of entire planetary governments or cultures.

Counterpoint:
"You will restructure the health care law."
"I will restructure the health care law."
"Also, Grover Cleveland's birthday will be a national holiday."
"Also, Grover Cleveland's birthday will be a national holiday."

[Keltest]

Counterpoint:
"You will restructure the health care law."
"I will restructure the health care law."
"Also, Grover Cleveland's birthday will be a national holiday."
"Also, Grover Cleveland's birthday will be a national holiday."

Which would work if the jedi could get themselves alone with a dictator of some sort who was also weak willed, but is not actually practical for any government that either values the life of its leader or fosters strong-willed, intelligent leaders. To say nothing of the various species that the mind trick outright wont work on.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

"Also, Grover Cleveland's birthday will be a national holiday."

He should get two holidays, given that he's the only person to have ever been president of the USA twice.

GW

[Xyril]

Which would work if the jedi could get themselves alone with

Not an insurmountable problem given Jedi prowess.

a dictator of some sort who was also weak willed, but is not actually practical for any government that either values the life of its leader or fosters strong-willed, intelligent leaders

So you concede that it'll work on most governments?

I meant that as a joke, but when I think about it, it's probably true for the Star Wars galaxy. True, the Bail Organas of the galaxy submitted not because they were weak willed, or lacked the acumen to question the official narrative, but because they had no choice but to submit given the sheer volume of the forces arrayed against them. However, the galaxy never would have reached that point if the vast majority of leaders weren't the sort that could be manipulated, intimidated, or blinded by self interest.

Also, my impression from the EU is that the power of Force suggestion is limited by both the will-power of the victim, but also how much the suggestion conflicts with what they want to do. Perhaps a leader of average willpower wouldn't submit to a suggestion to implement drastic changes against his self-interest, but a few subtle nudges here or there might do a lot to service the interest of peace in the galaxy?

[Xyril]

He should get two holidays, given that he's the only person to have ever been president of the USA twice.

GW

Every bar must serve double shots for the price of a single in honor of our two greatest Presidents, Grover Cleveland.

[GreatWyrmGold]

In Phantom Menace, the Jedi are acting as government officials on a specific diplomatic mission and are currently outside their jurisdiction. In the longer term, they are beholden to the republic and its leaders, and the government would almost certainly not appreciate them picking a fight with the Hutts without going through them first.

If they were the only Republic officials or Jedi to ever visit Tatooine, they've got bigger problems than condoning slavery.

They have skills, government authority, and a generally good reputation going for them, but outside of the republic they aren't any more capable than most other lone actors at influencing the direction of entire planetary governments or cultures.

I'm sorry, isn't that government the Galactic Republic? It seems like their governmental authority should have some influence over planets in the galaxy.

[Keltest]

If they were the only Republic officials or Jedi to ever visit Tatooine, they've got bigger problems than condoning slavery.



I'm sorry, isn't that government the Galactic Republic? It seems like their governmental authority should have some influence over planets in the galaxy.

I hope you don't honestly believe that naming themselves the Galactic Republic is enough to grant them legitimate authority over every planet in the galaxy.

[Peelee]

I hope you don't honestly believe that naming themselves the Galactic Republic is enough to grant them legitimate authority over every planet in the galaxy.

Hey, it's not like there's wild space or unknown regions. What would they even call those, anyway?

[Jasdoif]

Hey, it's not like there's wild space or unknown regions. What would they even call those, anyway?

Wildly unknown? Unknowingly wild? That place with those other places?

[Cazero]

I hope you don't honestly believe that naming themselves the Galactic Republic is enough to grant them legitimate authority over every planet in the galaxy.

What are you babbling about? Of course the United States of America have legitimate authority over Brazil !

[goodpeople25]

Hey, it's not like there's wild space or unknown regions. What would they even call those, anyway?

Some type of terminology based on proximity to some central point perhaps? Since anything like that being in place already is just as ridiculous.

Not that I wish to be in the mid of innerStarwars conflict so I'm outer here. *rim-shot

[Vinyadan]

I'm sorry, isn't that government the Galactic Republic? It seems like their governmental authority should have some influence over planets in the galaxy.

If it's like the USA, less than one third of the population of the Americas might be living there, and only cover 1/4 of their surface. The European Union right now covers less than half of European territory. Macedonia doesn't actually cover more than 1/3 of the region Macedonia. And so on and so on...

[Lacuna Caster]

Which is, incidentally, yet another reason to be suspicious of the Jedi's idea of right and wrong. Along with conscripting children, forbidding emotion, and condoning slavery.

There's "not appearing to be okay with it" and then there's "doing anything to change it, ever, even in the specific case of Anakin's mother."

In Phantom Menace, the Jedi are acting as government officials on a specific diplomatic mission and are currently outside their jurisdiction. In the longer term, they are beholden to the republic and its leaders, and the government would almost certainly not appreciate them picking a fight with the Hutts without going through them first.

If what Koo Rehtorb is saying is correct, and the dark side is defined by feeling the wrong emotions, then the Jedi are objectively correct to practice emotional control. I don't see a way around that.

I do think it was kinda stupid to leave Shmi in a state of bondage, given it would have taken minimal effort to find an excuse to buy out her contract and it's probably wise to give your Chosen One as few distractions or complaints as possible, but... to be fair, she was already a free woman before she died- you can't blame slavery specifically for the tusken raids.

Well, that's two different questions. Legally, the Sapphire Guard has the right to arrest people if the sovereign of their state authorizes them to arrest people. I've been assuming that they have some arrest powers, since this whole thing started when Miko was sent to retrieve the Order, whether they wanted to come or not, but in a world that seems like it's basically lawless except when you're fairly close to centers of government, I suppose it's also plausible that Shojo sent Miko on an extrajudicial bag and grab mission, and Miko was both aware of this and satisfied that doing so didn't violate the Lawful in her Lawful Good code.

The legal niceties of jurisdiction there are rather strained- even on religious-mandate grounds the north is under the auspices of a different pantheon- but of all the justifications for running an extrajudicial bag and grab mission, "these 6 dudes tugged at the fabric of reality and thus risked ending all life" seems very difficult to argue against. Which the Order, or more specifically Elan, were legitimately responsible for.

As for the whole argument about handling Shojo- I'm inclined to believe that the machiavellian puppet-master that Shojo is supposed to be* could probably have finagled his way out of a conviction, if he has the bluff-skill-mojo needed to convince the city he's senile for years on end. In which case the only realistic way to put him out of action was an impromptu execution. And while executing him was Fall-worthy, it would still have been Fall-worthy even if Shojo had been 100% guilty of everything Miko thought he was, given the code of conduct is pretty finicky about how you handle unarmed, unresisting targets. Something of a rock and a hard place there, gross-violation-wise.

* The version of Shojo that stays ignorant of the SG's crusades for several decades and thinks sending a single paladin with zero finesse and ambiguous orders to retrieve six lethally armed targets is a smart move? Probably less of a mastermind.

[littlebum2002]

I hate when a thread goes completely off the rails but the OP leaves. It would be nice to just change the title of this thread to be "stuff about Jedi", because I'm enjoying this conversation but can never remember what thread it's in.

[Peelee]

It would be nice to just change the title of this thread to be "stuff about Jedi"

To be fair, this applies to half the threads on here.

[HerbieRAI]

Also, my impression from the EU is that the power of Force suggestion is limited by both the will-power of the victim, but also how much the suggestion conflicts with what they want to do. Perhaps a leader of average willpower wouldn't submit to a suggestion to implement drastic changes against his self-interest, but a few subtle nudges here or there might do a lot to service the interest of peace in the galaxy?

I'm not an expert, but it could also be limited on time. The mind trick may only work for a few minutes or hours before fading, leaving the victim wondering what they were thinking.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I hate when a thread goes completely off the rails but the OP leaves. It would be nice to just change the title of this thread to be "stuff about Jedi", because I'm enjoying this conversation but can never remember what thread it's in.

You'd be out of luck anyway: the OP is three months old, well past the point were you can change the title, which IIRC is like 20 days.

GW

[Quebbster]

I hate when a thread goes completely off the rails but the OP leaves. It would be nice to just change the title of this thread to be "stuff about Jedi", because I'm enjoying this conversation but can never remember what thread it's in.

I just think "Jedi... Lightsabers... Oh right, the thread about the sword!"

[Xyril]

I'm not an expert, but it could also be limited on time. The mind trick may only work for a few minutes or hours before fading, leaving the victim wondering what they were thinking.

That's a good point.

[unbeliever536]

He should get two holidays, given that he's the only person to have ever been president of the USA twice.

GW

Aye, both birthdays.