Please tell me we are not going to have to deal with getting the sword back again

[Darth Paul]

Ah but the spell is Bugsby's CAT-Retrieving Hand. So V would need to Polymorph Any Object the sword into a cat first, and THEN retrieve it.

If we've seen anything, it's that V has a Bugsby's Hand spell for anything. I'm only surprised that we haven't seen them whip out Bugsby's Back-Scratching Hand in a quiet moment.

[prufock]

I have a feeling it's going to be one of those "The power was in you all along!" plotlines, where he learns to access the disruption power without the sword.

[martianmister]

If we've seen anything, it's that V has a Bugsby's Hand spell for anything. I'm only surprised that we haven't seen them whip out Bugsby's Back-Scratching Hand in a quiet moment.

Bugsby's Washing Hand
Bugsby's Tickling Hand
Bugsby's Fingering Hand

Possibilities are limitless!

[Throknor]

I have a feeling it's going to be one of those "The power was in you all along!" plotlines, where he learns to access the disruption power without the sword.

That would kind of nullify the whole "Here's a book about your Weapon of Legacy!" deal so I wouldn't put money on it. Not to mention that would basically make him a sorcerer of sorts depending on magic instead of strength.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Bugsby's Washing Hand
Bugsby's Tickling Hand
Bugsby's Fingering Hand

Possibilities are limitless!

My favorite is still Bugsby's Expressive Digit.

[Ruck]

Ah but the spell is Bugsby's CAT-Retrieving Hand. So V would need to Polymorph Any Object the sword into a cat first, and THEN retrieve it.

If we've seen anything, it's that V has a Bugsby's Hand spell for anything. I'm only surprised that we haven't seen them whip out Bugsby's Back-Scratching Hand in a quiet moment.

Bugsby's Hand can definitely be used to retrieve swords.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Bugsby's Hand can definitely be used to retrieve swords.

And also swordsmen. Though that was being used to retrieve a cat indirectly...

[JbeJ275]

...Well, okay, I'll grant you that. Blanket statements are always bad; only Sith deal in absolutes.

But that itself is an absolute.

[Marlowe]

Sith absolutes go up to eleven.

[Aasimar]

We won't.

There are three possibilities, each of which will be resolved in one strip, unless the problem of the sword is maybe discussed as a secondary problem in one strip and then solved in another.

1) Roy worries about the sword and realizes he can summon it to him.
2) Varsuviuus or Haley returns and bring the sword with them.
3) Varsuviuus or another spellcaster uses a spell to retrieve it.

[Christopher K.]

We won't.

There are three possibilities, each of which will be resolved in one strip, unless the problem of the sword is maybe discussed as a secondary problem in one strip and then solved in another.

1) Roy worries about the sword and realizes he can summon it to him.
2) Varsuviuus or Haley returns and bring the sword with them.
3) Varsuviuus or another spellcaster uses a spell to retrieve it.

4) Belkar finally gets his opportunity to lord it over Roy when he hops back on board and goes "maybe we need to get you a training weapon or something you won't lose until you've proven responsible enough to handle this"

[Peelee]

4) Belkar finally gets his opportunity to lord it over Roy when he hops back on board and goes "maybe we need to get you a training weapon or something you won't lose until you've proven responsible enough to handle this"

That's not "how the sword may be retrieved." That's "how a character might act after the sword has been retrieved."

[Kish]

I thought the implication was that Belkar would be handing Roy's sword back to him, with a condescending smirk.

[dmc91356]

That's how I read it (proposed number 4) as well.

[Peelee]

V's carrying Belkar. It's not impossible, but I'd find it odd that V would carry Belkar carrying the sword, rather than simply Haley getting the sword or V using a Hand spell.

[Vinyadan]

So there is place on reddit where only bots are allowed to post. Sometimes it's funny and/or accurate.

This from one of them:
"As a gay guy, I'm so glad it came out sooner than that. It's funny because I own a gun to someone's head and telling them to do that"*. Looooooootta women here."

[GreatWyrmGold]

But that itself is an absolute.

That's the joke.

[Porthos]

That's the joke.

And one that was almost certainly intentional on Lucas' part given his further highlighting at how flawed the Jedi of the PT era were in The Clone Wars.

[Kish]

Really? That's a more charitable reading of Lucas in general and the presentation of the Jedi in the prequel movies in particular than I ever saw before.

[Porthos]

Really? That's a more charitable reading of Lucas in general and the presentation of the Jedi in the prequel movies in particular than I ever saw before.

Lucas isn't nearly given enough credit for his ability to weave subtext, IMO. More to the point the whole sub-current of the Jedi being wrong on some level by leading the troops in the clone wars is examined more than once in both the Lucas helmed TCW cartoon series and the Dave Filoni made Rebels (I only mention Rebels because Filoni worked with Lucas for a long time and plumbed his brain on just what was going on in the prequel era, and perhaps more than anyone besides Lucas himself knows his thoughts on the era).

After all, Yoda had to get to the "wars not make one great" place somehow.

===

As an aside, with the fullness of time, and as Lucas backed projects like TCW have had time to digest, there's been something of a re-examination of Lucas' work of the prequels, I think.

Don't get me wrong, they're still flawed (mostly in choice of actors and some dialogue). But there's been more of an appreciation of just what he was trying to say in his story. From the deconstruction of the myth of The Chosen One to the perils of losing sight of the bigger spiritual picture when one decides to muck about with day to day politics.

To put it another way, I don't think it was a coincidence at all that some of the Jedi Masters were, to put not too fine a point on it, jerks. Or that they were presented as cold and uncaring in many ways to Anakin. At the same time, it's also not a coincidence that Anakin was presented as fundamentally flawed on some level and that he wasn't able to overcome his own demons.

Sure, again, Lucas' scripts could have used more polish (Carrie Fisher could only do so much, it would seem). But I do think he does need to be given a hell of a lot more credit than some give him for (including the much derided sand speech, which is in a way brilliant, as is the highly dysfunctional relationship Anakin has with Padme).

[Jasdoif]

More to the point the whole sub-current of the Jedi being wrong on some level by leading the troops in the clone wars is examined more than once in both the Lucas helmed TCW cartoon series and the Dave Filoni made Rebels (I only mention Rebels because Filoni worked with Lucas for a long time and plumbed his brain on just what was going on in the prequel era, and perhaps more than anyone besides Lucas himself knows his thoughts on the era).

Dave Filoni was the supervising director on The Clone Wars. Personally, I'm convinced that Lucas not being as directly involved is a big factor on why it ended up significantly better than any of the prequel movies he directed and screenplayed (even though Revenge of the Sith and, to a lesser degree, Phantom Menace certainly don't deserve the full amount of scorn heaped on them).

[Porthos]

Dave Filoni was the supervising director on The Clone Wars. Personally, I'm convinced that Lucas not being as directly involved is a big factor on why it ended up significantly better than any of the prequel movies he directed and screenplayed (even though Revenge of the Sith and, to a lesser degree, Phantom Menace certainly don't deserve the full amount of scorn heaped on them).

Yes, I know he was. However, each and every episode was personally approved by Lucas and Lucas was deep in development with all of them (from what I understand, at least). And many of the beloved concepts of TCW (Ahsoka, Mortis, the return of Darth Maul to name three) came directly from Lucas.

Lucas has his faults. He's can have trouble getting most out of his actors when he is directing, for one. His scripts can be hit or miss. He can take too many shortcuts in storytelling. At the same time, he has many strengths, and crafting subtext is one of them. At least, IMO.

Where the prequels failed is mostly* in the casting of a couple of characters. If three characters had different actors (Jar-Jar and both Anakins), I tend to think the prequels would be MUCH better received than they were.

* Mostly. There's more problems than just casting, but that's Issues #1, #2, and #3.

That is, of course, still on Lucas. But it does go to show how fickle these things can be. Ewan McGregor, Ian McDiarmid and Liam Neeson are lauded for their work in the prequels. Yet they read the same quality of lines that Jake Lloyd, Ahmed Best, and Hayden Christensen did for theirs. That alone makes me think that if there was better casting there (or people more suited to Lucas' style of directing), the prequels would have been better received.

Naturally, as you point out, they probably would have been even better with other directors with Lucas as (a very hands on) Producer. But it's not like he didn't try on that front before saying "Screw it, I'll do it myself".

[Peelee]

I don't know what group this is, but the bit is pretty on the ball.

Spoiler: It's a bit long.

Show

]

[Porthos]

I don't know what group this is, but the bit is pretty on the ball.

Spoiler: It's a bit long.

Show

]

"You were cooler as a mystery".

Yeah. Maaaaaybe an intentional point.

(Vader really SHOULDN'T be cool [or at least as cool as he is made out to be], BTW - but that's a whole nudder point and probably a 12 page discussion I don't particularly want to get involved in right now )

EDIT BEFORE THE REPLIES START.

Let me amend that parenthetical somewhat. I get why Vader is 'cool'. But I also think it absolutely needs to be highlighted that Vader is one ****ed up dude, psychologically. What the prequels do is show HOW he got so messed up in the head and how that inevitably turned him into Vader. Where they fall down on that score a bit is in some of the execution of that and the connective tissue, though a lot of it is very very well done.

[Jasdoif]

Yes, I know he was. However, each and every episode was personally approved by Lucas and Lucas was deep in development with all of them (from what I understand, at least). And many of the beloved concepts of TCW (Ahsoka, Mortis, the return of Darth Maul to name three) came directly from Lucas.

First, Mortis is the worst arc of the entire series

Second, Lucas said what he wanted to happen and the people who actually did the work made it happen. Saying Lucas "helmed" The Clone Wars is roughly equivalent to saying Shojo "helmed" the Order of the Stick: It may be accurate in some sense, but saying it that way obscures the people who really managed to make it work.

Where the prequels failed is mostly* in the casting of a couple of characters.

What caused the prequel movies to suffer is primarily that Lucas wrote the movies to play to his strengths, with significant sections that didn't play to his strengths; and then directed them to focus on the former...to the detriment of the latter. Which, of course, still drags down the movie as a whole when key parts of it aren't done well.

Lucas is very good with adventure-story-type arcs. Comedy/Romance arcs...not so much.

[Porthos]

First, Mortis is the worst arc of the entire series .

In all honesty, I am more than a little unimpressed with the Mortis arc myself. I only first saw TCW starting last year and binged all six seasons within the span of a couple of months. I only bring that point up to say that for a very long time I had heard the hype about that arc. Was really looking forward to it, tbh. Let's just say that I don't agree with the hype and leave it at that.

That being said, our personal opinions aside, I think it is safe to say that within the SW community at large it is very highly regarded. Even if we aren't as impressed with it.

Second, Lucas said what he wanted to happen and the people who actually did the work made it happen. Saying Lucas "helmed" The Clone Wars is roughly equivalent to saying Shojo "helmed" the Order of the Stick: It may be accurate in some sense, but saying it that way obscures the people who really managed to make it work.

He was in the writers room for each and every episode, no? He wrote some of the scripts himself. I think pegging him at the Producer level more or less works. Around the same level of involvement as ESB and ROTJ (and the Indiana Jones movies, for that matter).

Lucas is very good with adventure-story-type arcs. Comedy/Romance arcs...not so much.

At the risk of turning this into one of those dreaded 12 page discussions.... I think better casting would have sold those arcs in the prequels a hell of a lot better.

And even so, upon reflection I was a HELL of a lot more impressed with the Anakin/Padme plot in the prequels when I finally re-watched them for the first time in a decade just before TFA came out. Mostly because I felt the stalker-ish Anakin and the naive politician Padme who is almost just as emotionally stunted as Anakin worked. Because they were two highly flawed characters who were embarking on a dysfunctional relationship that could only ever end in tears.

I have my complaints about how Hayden acted in the prequels, but upon reflection his scenes with Padme weren't one of them. Which surprised me, tbh, as I expected to dislike them.

===

Not that much of this has much to do with the thread topic OR whether or not Lucas was deft enough to realize what he was typing when he wrote his "Sith deal in absolutes" line.

[Kish]

I'd also like to say that it's entirely possible to observe that some of the qualities panned in the prequels are also present in the original trilogy (Lucas thinking whiny, maladroit, but still aligned-with-good characters who exist solely to fall over their own feet while shrieking about it are the height of humor, i.e., Jar-Jar Binks and C-3PO), and think, not better of the prequels as a result, but worse of the original trilogy.

(For the original assertion, just in case I was less than clear, I'm going to spell it out: I do not believe there is any intentional subtext pointing to the Jedi being significantly morally flawed in the prequels. I do not believe Lucas believed they were such. I don't believe he saw anything wrong with Yoda's "accept that your loved one will be gone and don't mourn them" advice to Anakin. Given that he did explicitly say that the prophecy did in fact speak of the destruction of the Sith and that Anakin/Vader accomplished it by killing the Emperor, I also don't believe he thought the Jedi were wrong to be invested in Anakin as the Chosen One; I believe he genuinely meant for Anakin's sudden embrace of murdering children to be a further and inevitable step along the same path he started down by not wiping love from his heart, and accordingly the fault for Anakin's fall was entirely his own--not because of anything he did that I would agree was actually wrong, but because he didn't turn himself into an emotionless automaton like every Jedi in the prequel movies who didn't fall. That he established, with Obi-Wan walking away from Anakin and leaving him alive and suffering after he was mutilated and badly burned by the lava, that a Jedi could do something that was both incredibly sadistic and suicidally stupid without it being a sign of the dark side as long as he didn't raise his voice while doing it, was an unnecessary and entirely over-the-top touch to establish the prequel movies' lack of moral weight.)

[Peelee]

In all honesty, I am more than a little unimpressed with the Mortis arc myself. I only first saw TCW starting last year and binged all six seasons within the span of a couple of months. I only bring that point up to say that for a very long time I had heard the hype about that arc. Was really looking forward to it, tbh. Let's just say that I don't agree with the hype and leave it at that.

That being said, our personal opinions aside, I think it is safe to say that within the SW community at large it is very highly regarded. Even if we aren't as impressed with it.



He was in the writers room for each and every episode, no? He wrote some of the scripts himself. I think pegging him at the Producer level more or less works. Around the same level of involvement as ESB and ROTJ (and the Indiana Jones movies, for that matter).



At the risk of turning this into one of those dreaded 12 page discussions.... I think better casting would have sold those arcs in the prequels a hell of a lot better.

And even so, upon reflection I was a HELL of a lot more impressed with the Anakin/Padme plot in the prequels when I finally re-watched them for the first time in a decade just before TFA came out. Mostly because I felt the stalker-ish Anakin and the naive politician Padme who is almost just as emotionally stunted as Anakin worked. Because they were two highly flawed characters who were embarking on a dysfunctional relationship that could only ever end in tears.

I have my complaints about how Hayden acted in the prequels, but upon reflection his scenes with Padme weren't one of them. Which surprised me, tbh, as I expected to dislike them.

The best acting can't save the worst writing.

Not to say that the prequels have the worst writing, but there were badly written with nonsensical events.

[Porthos]

I'm going to spell it out: I do not believe there is any intentional subtext pointing to the Jedi being significantly morally flawed in the prequels. I do not believe Lucas believed they were such.

Well, fundamentally disagree here. I think the argument could have been made quite well if The Clone Wars had never been made. But with Lucas' further thoughts on the matter distilled in that series (even if though other people), I think it gives heavy weight to the idea that yes indeed the Jedi were flawed in the prequel era and their own actions led in part to their destruction.

As for the prophecy? Well, it's hardly a subtextual analysis to remind that subversions of prophecy and them not turning out quite like the people thought they were going to (understatement) have a long and glorious history in storytelling.

And if you don't believe me on this point, if the Jedi hadn't been so wrapped up in The Chosen One guff and if Anakin didn't let it go to his head, then things probably wouldn't have turned out as bad as they did. That blindly following the prophecy led to decades of suffering and grief, only to finally culminate in something good? Well, hardly the first time we've seen prophecy used in such matter; won't be the last.

EDIT TO NOT DOUBLE POST

The best acting can't save the worst writing.

Not to say that the prequels have the worst writing, but there were badly written with nonsensical events.

Ugh. Any time the prequels get mentioned on the internet the discussion just keeps going on and on and on. ANY TIME....

*gathers self*
*realizes he's just as much part of the problem*
*decides to plow into the breech one more time anyway*

I see where you're coming from, but I don't agree.

Let me flip this around a bit. Take Empire Strikes Back. When I did my re-watch of all six movies just before TFA came out, I was struck by how much of an utter creep Han Solo is in the film at times. I then thought what would have happened if we had a pair of different actors without the undeniable talent or chemistry of Carrie Fisher and Harrison Ford.

Let's just say that I don't think ESB would be quite the beloved classic that many think it is if there were different actors there.

[Jasdoif]

I think pegging him at the Producer level more or less works. Around the same level of involvement as ESB and ROTJ (and the Indiana Jones movies, for that matter).

Ah....I wouldn't use "helm" to describe a Producer role, maybe that's why I've been disagreeing with you

At the risk of turning this into one of those dreaded 12 page discussions.... I think better casting would have sold those arcs in the prequels a hell of a lot better.

It certainly could have; but better casting with the same writing sequence would only go so far. A better treatment in the writing for Jar-Jar and Anakin (like, say, that in The Clone Wars) might've done a far better job of informing the actors even with the same cast.

Not that much of this has much to do with the thread topic OR whether or not Lucas was deft enough to realize what he was typing when he wrote his "Sith deal in absolutes" line.

To be entirely fair, the extent to which losing a lightsaber happens to symbolize the current state of conflict could possibly parallel Roy losing his sword in a moment of over-reliance. Possibly. It sounds good, anyway....