Do you consider a hamburger a sandwich?

[Liquor Box]

So you would go to Subway & eat a "roll" with swiss & ham on it?

Generally something like that would be called a roll, but when it comes from Subway it would be called a "Subway" (or perhaps a "Subway roll") because that is how Subway brands it here.

[Flickerdart]

OK, now you're just making things up.

If being sweet and sugary means it's not bread, then most American bread is disqualified. Wonderbread? More like Wondercake.

[factotum]

OK, now you're just making things up.

No, he's quite right--in the UK at least, a traditional Victoria sponge (e.g. two round sponge cake layers with jam and cream in the middle) can be referred to as a Victoria sandwich. See the section on "Victoria sponge" on the Wikipedia article about sponge cakes:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sponge_cake

[Ninja_Prawn]

OK, now you're just making things up.

Personally, I'd say a proper Victoria sponge is more of a sandwich than a hamburger is. At least, I can conceive of calling it a 'sandwich cake'. Especially because I frequently use the Victoria recipe for non-sandwiched cakes (I made some butterfly cakes with it literally yesterday), so a distinction would need to be made.

[Peelee]

No, he's quite right--in the UK at least, a traditional Victoria sponge (e.g. two round sponge cake layers with jam and cream in the middle) can be referred to as a Victoria sandwich. See the section on "Victoria sponge" on the Wikipedia article about sponge cakes:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sponge_cake

Oh, I did before I commented. I just like joking on the Brits for their (admittedly kind of awesome) names for things.

[Jasdoif]

Is KFC's Double Down a sandwich? ...okay, apparently whoever put it in the title of the Wikipedia article thought so. But it doesn't have bread, it uses chicken fillets to hold the bacon and cheese filling.

So is it "actually" a sandwich? Or is it a food item arranged in the style typically associated with sandwiches? Or is the word "sandwich" being adapted, or has it been adapted, to encompass food items arranged in the style typically associated with sandwiches?

[Peelee]

Is KFC's Double Down a sandwich? ...okay, apparently whoever put it in the title of the Wikipedia article thought so. But it doesn't have bread, it uses chicken fillets to hold the bacon and cheese filling.

So is it "actually" a sandwich? Or is it a food item arranged in the style typically associated with sandwiches? Or is the word "sandwich" being adapted, or has it been adapted, to encompass food items arranged in the style typically associated with sandwiches?

I don't know what it is, but it's delightful.

[AuthorGirl]

If somebody asked me directly, as you are doing now, I would answer yes. If somebody asked me if I wanted a sandwich, then came back 20 minutes later with a hamburger, I would be very confused, and possibly annoyed.

Yeah, exactly - there's technically not much of a difference, but I tend to think that a sandwich is
a) a cold meal, unless it's grilled cheese.
b) flat, not like a hamburger bun.
c) not involving beef

By the way, I am Canadian, so this American regional use thing does not apply to me.

On another note, I am amused by the fact that there are multiple pages of forum argument about this when we mostly seem to be agreeing with eachother. GiantITP in a nutshell!

[Peelee]

Yeah, exactly - there's technically not much of a difference, but I tend to think that a sandwich is
a) a cold meal, unless it's grilled cheese.
b) flat, not like a hamburger bun.
c) not involving beef

Not a big Reuben fan, I take it?

[Razade]

Or a Philly Cheesesteak Sandwich?

[Aedilred]

Yeah, exactly - there's technically not much of a difference, but I tend to think that a sandwich is
a) a cold meal, unless it's grilled cheese.
b) flat, not like a hamburger bun.
c) not involving beef
!

Not a big Reuben fan, I take it?

Yeah, salt beef sandwiches are definitely a thing. As are (usually cold) roast beef sandwiches. With horseradish, they're hard to beat.

Or a Philly Cheesesteak Sandwich?

That, on the other hand, is just an unholy abomination.

On doing some research to try to find out what the specific type of meat was in the "original" (i.e. eponymous) sandwich, which I suspect was beef or mutton, but may not have been, I discovered that in the US at least there is a legal definition for sandwich and it appears that two discrete pieces of bread are required. Which would disqualify hot dogs and other filled rolls where the bread remains joined.

Edit: So here's one for the thread in general. Is a croque monsieur (or a croque madame, no need to be sexist on this point) a sandwich?

[Scarlet Knight]

A hamburger is a sandwich the way a lion is a cat: yes, by definition, but no one refers to one that way.

That, on the other hand, is just an unholy abomination.

Balderdash ! As any good student knows, the Philly sleez cheese steak is one of the few items that taste as good at 1am as it does at 1pm!

So here's one for the thread in general. Is a croque monsieur (or a croque madame, no need to be sexist on this point) a sandwich?

Only if can be eaten with your hands.

[Razade]

That, on the other hand, is just an unholy abomination.

Certainly isn't even close.

On doing some research to try to find out what the specific type of meat was in the "original" (i.e. eponymous) sandwich, which I suspect was beef or mutton, but may not have been, I discovered that in the US at least there is a legal definition for sandwich and it appears that two discrete pieces of bread are required. Which would disqualify hot dogs and other filled rolls where the bread remains joined.

Not...sure where you got mutton from, like at all. The original meat used for the cheese streak was ribeye beef. The sandwich was invented in the 1930's.

Edit: So here's one for the thread in general. Is a croque monsieur (or a croque madame, no need to be sexist on this point) a sandwich?

Of course it is. Why wouldn't it be? Also, a Croque Monsieur and a Croque Madame are different. Not just a naming convention. So is the Croque Mademoiselle. The Madame has an additional poached egg added on top and the Maemoiselle is without the ham with chives and other vegetables.

[Some Android]

Berries so defined include grapes, currants, and tomatoes, as well as cucumbers, eggplants (aubergines) and bananas, but exclude certain fruits commonly called berries, such as strawberries and raspberries."

Watermelons qualify.

Everything I have ever been told is a lie! What is this Orwellian nightmare I have woken up to?!? Ignorance is strength! War is peace! 2+2=5!

[Aedilred]

Not...sure where you got mutton from, like at all. The original meat used for the cheese streak was ribeye beef. The sandwich was invented in the 1930's.

Not a cheesesteak sandwich! What is your obsession with that monstrosity?! The original sandwich, as invented by the Earl of Sandwich in the 18th century.

Having done a bit more research, it appears that the (possibly apocryphal) "original sandwich" did indeed contain (salt) beef.

Of course it is. Why wouldn't it be? Also, a Croque Monsieur and a Croque Madame are different. Not just a naming convention. So is the Croque Mademoiselle. The Madame has an additional poached egg added on top and the Maemoiselle is without the ham with chives and other vegetables.

I know they're different, but the objection to the sandwich status of both would be the same: i.e. that the filling isn't just between the bread slices but also on top of them. It seems to run counter to the generally agreed rule of sandwich-dom in the thread so far that the filling is in the sandwich*. It also means that, while you can eat it with your hands, you can't eat it without getting your hands greasy, which is a betrayal of the whole purpose of sandwiches (see the "original sandwich", above).

*I am aware that the same objection could be raised for a sandwich cake, but that's an oddity anyway.

[Razade]

Not a cheesesteak sandwich! What is your obsession with that monstrosity?! The original sandwich, as invented by the Earl of Sandwich in the 18thcentury.

To be fair, you went from "that monstrosity" to "the original sandwich" without any kind of mention that you were talking about two separate things.

I know they're different, but the objection to the sandwich status of both would be the same: i.e. that the filling isn't just between the bread slices but also on top of them. It seems to run counter to the generally agreed rule of sandwich-dom in the thread so far that the filling is in the sandwich*. It also means that, while you can eat it with your hands, you can't eat it without getting your hands greasy, which is a betrayal of the whole purpose of sandwiches (see the "original sandwich", above).

*I am aware that the same objection could be raised for a sandwich cake, but that's an oddity anyway.

See, I don't think sandwiches are just finger food though...we have sandwiches in the U.S that aren't. The Kentucky Hot Brown for example, not one you'd really want to eat with your fingers. One could argue that the French Dip isn't a sandwich if all ingredients have to be "on the outside".

[golentan]

To be fair, you went from "that monstrosity" to "the original sandwich" without any kind of mention that you were talking about two separate things.

"Eponymous" was a pretty good indication, IMO.

A croque monsieur is certainly a sandwich. Many of the things people are talking about as "edge cases" are clearly sandwiches. And we're about one mention of Pineapple on Pizza from me believing that Zamasu did nothing wrong.

[Keltest]

I know they're different, but the objection to the sandwich status of both would be the same: i.e. that the filling isn't just between the bread slices but also on top of them. It seems to run counter to the generally agreed rule of sandwich-dom in the thread so far that the filling is in the sandwich*. It also means that, while you can eat it with your hands, you can't eat it without getting your hands greasy, which is a betrayal of the whole purpose of sandwiches (see the "original sandwich", above).

*I am aware that the same objection could be raised for a sandwich cake, but that's an oddity anyway.

Conceivably, you can pile lots of other things on top of sandwiches, up to and including other sandwiches. A sandwich doesn't suddenly become less of a sandwich because you stuck a toothpick with an olive on top of the bread.

[Bartmanhomer]

Anything can be a sandwich these days. So in my opinion yes a hamburger can be a sandwich. Which included a cheeseburger and veggieburger. Speaking of hamburgers, I which I have a Big Mac by now. Mmm, delicious.

[AvatarVecna]

As a Brit, I agree. I would never consider a hamburger to be a sandwich. If it wasn't cooked, it'd be a bun or a bap (or maybe barm) depending on where in the country I was. And yes, the things in Subway are definitely rolls. Or paninis if they're on crusty/French bread. Though I would add that the influence of the Subway chain has led to most people calling their products 'subs'.

Also, as far as I'm concerned, a sandwich can't be cooked. It becomes a toastie if you cook it.

How do you yanks get by with only one word for all these different foodstuffs?

You see, we differentiate our amalgamations of bread and non-bread things by the stuff inside it, and possibly the kind of bread; the actual style of bread occasionally comes up, but since most places that make sandwiches all make the same style of sandwich (McDonalds has burgers, but no subs or paninis, Subway has subs and wraps, but no burgers, etc), there's basically not ever any need to specify the style of bread. The actual ingredients are what matter (and oftentimes, the kind of bread you get will usually set the style as well, but that's neither here nor there).

A much shorter answer: we don't get by with one word, we have many words for "non-bread inside bread(s)", it's just that we don't pretend the group of things that are non-bread ingredients contained by bread ingredients can't have some kind of blanket term.

Is there anyone here who would, in casual conversation or when ordering a food item, call a hamburger by the term 'sandwich'?

"I'd like a Big Mac sandwich" is something I heard with enough frequency while working/eating at McD's that it's virtually interchangable to me with "I'd like a Big Mac burger" (other variations include things like my earlier example "I'd like a #3 meal, just the sandwich/burger").

If somebody asked me directly, as you are doing now, I would answer yes. If somebody asked me if I wanted a sandwich, then came back 20 minutes later with a hamburger, I would be very confused, and possibly annoyed.

True, but while all burgers are sandwiches, not all sandwiches are burgers. If your friend asked "you want a burger?", and you said yes, and they came back and handed you a burger while saying "here's your sandwich", it'd be a **** move to lecture them on the technical definition dating back to when the style of bread in a sandwich was more important than the ingredients, and they'd be well within their rights to tell you "just shut up and eat your sandwich".

[Aedilred]

See, I don't think sandwiches are just finger food though...we have sandwiches in the U.S that aren't. The Kentucky Hot Brown for example, not one you'd really want to eat with your fingers. One could argue that the French Dip isn't a sandwich if all ingredients have to be "on the outside".

I think this is the language gap again, but really the "can you eat it with your hands" thing is more of a theoretical than a practical distinction. Obviously, many sandwiches are too big to be eaten with one's hands in practice. (As an aside, I'm always baffled by people who eat burgers with a knife and fork, especially if it's a non-formal setting. In a quasi-formal setting it's just amusing).

The French Dip, I think, is a dish which contains a sandwich. It's hard to argue that the whole thing counts as a sandwich, I think; it's not like a Happy Meal is a sandwich. The Hot Brown seems like it's a sandwich only by name, but then I don't really hold with open-faced "sandwiches".

Conceivably, you can pile lots of other things on top of sandwiches, up to and including other sandwiches. A sandwich doesn't suddenly become less of a sandwich because you stuck a toothpick with an olive on top of the bread.

That's a garnish, though, rather than an integral part of the sandwich. A reuben sandwich, say, doesn't become or stop being a reuben sandwich depending on whether it has an olive-toothpick on it, whereas a croque monsieur without cheese on top is just a cheese and ham toastie. The croque is kind of a hybrid between a rarebit (not a sandwich) and a sandwich, so it could be argued as a sandwich or as a "hot bread-based dish", I think.

I am being excessively pedantic, obviously, but then that is basically the premise of this thread.

Anything can be a sandwich these days. So in my opinion yes a hamburger can be a sandwich. Which included a cheeseburger and veggieburger. Speaking of hamburgers, I which I have a Big Mac by now. Mmm, delicious.

Yeah, I think if you accept the premise that a burger is a sandwich, you can change the nature of the burger itself or add extra toppings/fillings and it's going to remain a sandwich.

"I'd like a Big Mac sandwich" is something I heard with enough frequency while working/eating at McD's that it's virtually interchangable to me with "I'd like a Big Mac burger"

Seems like both of them are wasting a word there; I just go with "I'd like a Big Mac" and they seem to understand.

[Starwulf]

I'm one of those odd Americans I guess that don't see a burger as a sandwich. For me, a sandwich is between two pieces of "normal" bread(ie: two slices of bread you'd get from a grocery store). If it's between a roll or a bun, it is it's own thing.

[AvatarVecna]

Seems like both of them are wasting a word there; I just go with "I'd like a Big Mac" and they seem to understand.

A fair point, but neither is wrong just because the go into more detail.

[tonberrian]

So if a burger is not a sandwich because it's in a bun, what would you call a chicken "sandwich" that is in the same bun?

[Aedilred]

So if a burger is not a sandwich because it's in a bun, what would you call a chicken "sandwich" that is in the same bun?

A chicken burger?

[Liquor Box]

A chicken burger?

Or a McChicken

[tonberrian]

Or a McChicken

That's their cheapest one, but they also offer a Buttermilk Crispy Chicken Sandwich and an Artisan Grilled Chicken Sandwich.

[Bartmanhomer]

I think this is the language gap again, but really the "can you eat it with your hands" thing is more of a theoretical than a practical distinction. Obviously, many sandwiches are too big to be eaten with one's hands in practice. (As an aside, I'm always baffled by people who eat burgers with a knife and fork, especially if it's a non-formal setting. In a quasi-formal setting it's just amusing).

The French Dip, I think, is a dish which contains a sandwich. It's hard to argue that the whole thing counts as a sandwich, I think; it's not like a Happy Meal is a sandwich. The Hot Brown seems like it's a sandwich only by name, but then I don't really hold with open-faced "sandwiches".


That's a garnish, though, rather than an integral part of the sandwich. A reuben sandwich, say, doesn't become or stop being a reuben sandwich depending on whether it has an olive-toothpick on it, whereas a croque monsieur without cheese on top is just a cheese and ham toastie. The croque is kind of a hybrid between a rarebit (not a sandwich) and a sandwich, so it could be argued as a sandwich or as a "hot bread-based dish", I think.

I am being excessively pedantic, obviously, but then that is basically the premise of this thread.


Yeah, I think if you accept the premise that a burger is a sandwich, you can change the nature of the burger itself or add extra toppings/fillings and it's going to remain a sandwich.

Yes all you have to do is to get some bread,add condiments, add meat. And you have yourself a sandwich. I believe a chiliburger is part of the sandwich family as well.

[Knaight]

Yes all you have to do is to get some bread,add condiments, add meat. And you have yourself a sandwich. I believe a chiliburger is part of the sandwich family as well.

So if I have a giant pile of vegetables between two pieces of bread, plus various condiments (lets say mustard and mayo), that's not a sandwich because it doesn't have meat? This seems like a pretty unique definition.

[Bartmanhomer]

So if I have a giant pile of vegetables between two pieces of bread, plus various condiments (lets say mustard and mayo), that's not a sandwich because it doesn't have meat? This seems like a pretty unique definition.

It still a sandwich meat or no meat.