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Thread: The Aid Spell

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    Default The Aid Spell

    If I'm interpreting Aid correctly, it effectively restores hit points. This brings up a couple questions.

    1. Does the "Discipline of Life" mechanic from the Life Domain apply to Aid?
    2. Can Aid be used as sort of Mass Healing Word? There are certainly pros & cons to using this way. But the ability of the spell to target three allies seems like it could be leveraged a for mass triage. Albeit the healing will be weaker on average. And it requires an action instead of a bonus action.

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    Default Re: The Aid Spell

    Quote Originally Posted by xroads View Post
    If I'm interpreting Aid correctly, it effectively restores hit points. This brings up a couple questions.

    1. Does the "Discipline of Life" mechanic from the Life Domain apply to Aid?
    2. Can Aid be used as sort of Mass Healing Word? There are certainly pros & cons to using this way. But the ability of the spell to target three allies seems like it could be leveraged a for mass triage. Albeit the healing will be weaker on average. And it requires an action instead of a bonus action.
    My interpretation:

    1. No, because it is not restoring hit points but increasing them. Your hit points increase and are not "regained." They are new hit points.

    2. I think so. It burns an action, but its not bad for a 2nd level spell slot for that purpose in a pinch.
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    Default Re: The Aid Spell

    Aid lasts for eight(?) hours.

    You cast it after breakfast.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by gfishfunk View Post
    My interpretation:
    1. No, because it is not restoring hit points but increasing them. Your hit points increase and are not "regained." They are new hit points.
    But what if your allies have, for example, each lost around 10 hp? Isn't that increase effectively "recovering" lost hit points?

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    Default Re: The Aid Spell

    Quote Originally Posted by xroads View Post
    If I'm interpreting Aid correctly, it effectively restores hit points. This brings up a couple questions.

    1. Does the "Discipline of Life" mechanic from the Life Domain apply to Aid?
    2. Can Aid be used as sort of Mass Healing Word? There are certainly pros & cons to using this way. But the ability of the spell to target three allies seems like it could be leveraged a for mass triage. Albeit the healing will be weaker on average. And it requires an action instead of a bonus action.
    Might be a case by case scenerio for some DMs, but Aid does grant characters an extra 10 HP. Life Cleric is good to go BUT won't put you over that max.

    Healing Word does have its own advantages but, yes, Aid is a decent "mass healing word" as long as you need to target more than one creature.

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    Default Re: The Aid Spell

    Quote Originally Posted by xroads View Post
    But what if your allies have, for example, each lost around 10 hp? Isn't that increase effectively "recovering" lost hit points?
    No.

    You can try arguing for it, your DM might let you, of you might let your players as a DM.

    I see it as two different things. It's not like refilling pasta at a buffet. You are not putting more pasta in the bucket. You are putting out another tray, a NEW tray, at the buffet.

    More importantly, they use different words. It semantics and word play, but that is how you figured out rules.
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    Default Re: The Aid Spell

    Quote Originally Posted by gfishfunk View Post
    No.

    You can try arguing for it, your DM might let you, of you might let your players as a DM.

    I see it as two different things. It's not like refilling pasta at a buffet. You are not putting more pasta in the bucket. You are putting out another tray, a NEW tray, at the buffet.

    More importantly, they use different words. It semantics and word play, but that is how you figured out rules.
    Quote Originally Posted by xroads View Post
    But what if your allies have, for example, each lost around 10 hp? Isn't that increase effectively "recovering" lost hit points?
    Let's assume we're casting the spell at second level - +5 HP max and +5 HP to current HP.

    The character you cast it on has 90/100 HP. Their HP doesn't go to 100/100, it goes to 95/105. After 8 hours, it goes back down to 90/100. If the character regains their health via a different spell or potion, their HP is 105/105. When the spell ends, it goes back down to 100/100. If they took more damage and are at 53/105, when the spell ends they are at 48/100.

    It's half a healing spell. The hp given is taken away at the end of the spell. Using it as a healing spell, though, could be quite damaging to a player who is dangerously low on HP when the spell ends, since they could potentially be brought to 0 hp from losing the extra HP, although you could use it on a character who is at 0 to bring them up to 5 hp.
    Last edited by McNinja; 2017-03-14 at 02:00 AM.

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    Default Re: The Aid Spell

    Quote Originally Posted by gfishfunk View Post
    No.

    You can try arguing for it, your DM might let you, of you might let your players as a DM.

    I see it as two different things. It's not like refilling pasta at a buffet. You are not putting more pasta in the bucket. You are putting out another tray, a NEW tray, at the buffet.

    More importantly, they use different words. It semantics and word play, but that is how you figured out rules.

    The spell not only increases your Max HP but gives you HP. Basic English being used, you are restoring someone's HP with aid as restoring and imcreasing is no different.

    Arguing semantics is silly in 5e as it is based off plain English. Though the devs for 5e (typically post purge) can't make up their mind on just how much plain English 5e really wants to use.

    Quote Originally Posted by Disciple of Life

    Also starting at 1st level, your healing spells are more effective. Whenever you use a spell of 1st level or higher to restore hit points to a creature, the creature regains additional hit points equal to 2 + the spell’s level.

    Aid does restore hit points to a character.

    If you have 1 HP (max 20) and have Aid cast on you, you gain 5 extra HP and your max is now 25. These are not temporary hit points but the effect is temporary (5e is bad about breaking its own rules lol).

    Due to Life cleric the number of hit points restored/given/etc would be 9. However these hit points wouldn't be able to take you over your max. Your Max would still only increase by 5.

    Now, it may have not been intended, but a lot of crap wasn't intended/put thought into when it comes to 5e.

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    Default Re: The Aid Spell

    Definitely not healing. All healing spells specify you regain hit points. Aid goes out of it's way to say it increases your current hit point total. And, as noted, the number added to the current hit point total will go down by the same amount when the spell ends, unlike healing spells.

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    Default Re: The Aid Spell

    Healing word, cure wounds, prayer of healing, mass cure wounds, and mad healing word all State "regain hit points.". Aid states that the Max hit points and current hit points "increase."

    The cleric feature says when you "restore" hit points, the character "regains additional hit points." While the language is less clear, the fact that all the other healing spells use a different word than Aid, the cleric feature uses a different word from aid and restated the word "regain" to describe the activity indicates that the interaction dies not work.

    I'm arguing akin to statute interpretation - don't let me get in the way of your fun but at least acknowledge that this interpretation is consistent and had merit.

    Now let me argue intent: the other spells clearly occupy that area of healing that the OP wanted to use Aid with. As there is a specific different tool (mass cure wounds, mass healing word) that achieves what the OP wants to do, I see no reason to conclude that Aid works the same way.
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    Default Re: The Aid Spell

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    Definitely not healing. All healing spells specify you regain hit points. Aid goes out of it's way to say it increases your current hit point total. And, as noted, the number added to the current hit point total will go down by the same amount when the spell ends, unlike healing spells.
    A synonym of restore, using basic English like the game is susposed to be built upon, is to give back, bring up, or replace.

    Aid does this.

    So argue all you want, and it may not have been intended, but Aid definitely restores HP.

    Unless we aren't using basic English anymore? Did we take a vote or did wotc release a memo saying the PHB wasn't made with the ideology of basic English?

    Yeah, thought so.

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    Default Re: The Aid Spell

    The amazing thing about Aid is that it increases the HP total (and max) of three characters by 5/10/15/20/25/30/35/40 for 8 hours. That means those can be healed and refilled with magic and short rests. And yes, in a pinch it basically works like a quick and dirty group heal.
    It is an absolutely amazing spell that is often overlooked.
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    Default Re: The Aid Spell

    Quote Originally Posted by DivisibleByZero View Post
    The amazing thing about Aid is that it increases the HP total (and max) of three characters by 5/10/15/20/25/30/35/40 for 8 hours. That means those can be healed and refilled with magic and short rests. And yes, in a pinch it basically works like a quick and dirty group heal.
    It is an absolutely amazing spell that is often overlooked.
    I have my paladin using this spell often, but it is not as ideal due to slow slot progression. It looks like it really takes off around spell level 4 (15 hp) when cast early in the day.
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    Default Re: The Aid Spell

    Thank you all for your responses.

    Quote Originally Posted by McNinja View Post
    Let's assume we're casting the spell at second level - +5 HP max and +5 HP to current HP.

    The character you cast it on has 90/100 HP. Their HP doesn't go to 100/100, it goes to 95/105. After 8 hours, it goes back down to 90/100. If the character regains their health via a different spell or potion, their HP is 105/105. When the spell ends, it goes back down to 100/100. If they took more damage and are at 53/105, when the spell ends they are at 48/100.

    It's half a healing spell. The hp given is taken away at the end of the spell. Using it as a healing spell, though, could be quite damaging to a player who is dangerously low on HP when the spell ends, since they could potentially be brought to 0 hp from losing the extra HP, although you could use it on a character who is at 0 to bring them up to 5 hp.
    Interesting. I figured it worked like a glass of water. So let's say you have a 20 oz glass filled with 15 oz of water. You use Aid to enlarge the glass by 5 oz and add 5 more oz of water. When Aid ends, the glass shrinks back down to a 20 oz glass. But since the 20 oz of water currently in the glass don't overflow the glass, they stay in the glass.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deleted View Post
    A synonym of restore, using basic English like the game is susposed to be built upon, is to give back, bring up, or replace.

    Aid does this.
    Aid does not do this.

    Let me put it another way: your fighter buddy has a hp total of 20hp. He has taken a sword slash, and that caused a wound that did 5hp of damage.

    Now, you cast aid on him. Before the spell his current/max hp were 15/20.

    After the spell his current/max hp are 20/25. He still has that same 5-point wound that he had before! That wound has not been 'healed' in any way!

    When the spell ends his current/max hp return to 15/20. He has still got that same 5-point wound that still needs healing and no amount af aid spells will 'heal' that wound.

    Another thing: note that when the spell wears off and he goes from 20/25 to 15/20, he hasn't just been wounded!

    So argue all you want, and it may not have been intended, but Aid definitely restores HP.

    Unless we aren't using basic English anymore? Did we take a vote or did wotc release a memo saying the PHB wasn't made with the ideology of basic English?
    We are using basic English. I've no idea what language you are using!

    Yeah, thought so.
    Really? You sound like Donald Trump with your 'alternative English'. Your 'basic English' argument is a house built on sand.

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    People go from 0 to 60 in aggression very quickly around here.
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    Default Re: The Aid Spell

    Quote Originally Posted by Deleted View Post
    The spell not only increases your Max HP but gives you HP. Basic English being used, you are restoring someone's HP with aid as restoring and imcreasing is no different.
    Sorry, my knowledge of basic English tells me those are different.
    Last edited by ShikomeKidoMi; 2017-03-15 at 04:59 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gfishfunk View Post
    People go from 0 to 60 in aggression very quickly around here.
    It happens when someone asserts an idea as fact when others think that it is wrong.

    For the record, my stance is that Aid isn't healing so doesn't benifit from Disciple of Life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by McNinja View Post
    ... although you could use it on a character who is at 0 to bring them up to 5 hp.
    Does this happen? I would rule that it does not, but I'd like to know if I'm wrong. It would seem to me that once you have zero hit points, you're dead dying, and Aid doesn't change the fact that you're dead dying. (edit: thanks, NNescio)

    Quote Originally Posted by Deleted View Post
    Basic English being used, you are restoring someone's HP with aid as restoring and imcreasing is no different.
    Yeah, no. "Restore" and "increase" do not mean the same thing. Also, being synonyms does not imply no difference. Synonyms share at least one meaning in at least some cases. They are not interchangeable in all cases.

    [edit: in case you need an example:

    You can restore something by decreasing it. For example, if language is added to a contract, and the contract is later restored... then the number of words and the length of the contract have both decreased.]
    Last edited by BurgerBeast; 2017-03-16 at 09:29 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BurgerBeast View Post
    Does this happen? I would rule that it does not, but I'd like to know if I'm wrong. It would seem to me that once you have zero hit points, you're dead, and Aid doesn't change the fact that you're dead.
    PCs generally don't die at 0 HP (unless the remaining damage ≥ their max HP, or they get hit by some sort of Disintegrate or Death effect). They fall unconscious instead. "This unconsciousness ends if you regain any hit points", so it's debatable whether Aid will bring them back up (in the same sense it is debatable whether Discipline of Life applies to Aid, because the crux of he matter is whether the HP increase via Aid counts as "regaining" or "restoring" HP).

    They don't need to make Death Saving Throws though, since they're no longer at 0 HP. This part is unambiguous.

    (However, if Aid doesn't count as "healing", such creatures are still not stabilized, so if Aid gets wiped out by Dispel Magic or similar they'd still need to make DSTs .)
    Last edited by NNescio; 2017-03-16 at 03:09 AM.
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    Default Re: The Aid Spell

    So basically, the argument here is whether or not "gain" and "regain" are the same basic effect?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BiPolar View Post
    So basically, the argument here is whether or not "gain" and "regain" are the same basic effect?
    Basically. It really just boils down to whether or not your DM want to allow you to upcast it by one level for free if you're a Life Cleric.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DivisibleByZero View Post
    Basically. It really just boils down to whether or not your DM want to allow you to upcast it by one level for free if you're a Life Cleric.
    When you put it like that, it actually seems appropriate.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DivisibleByZero View Post
    Basically. It really just boils down to whether or not your DM want to allow you to upcast it by one level for free if you're a Life Cleric.
    Seems kinda of silly and petty not to allow it. The difference between "gain" and "regain" is minimal. The primary effect is you are gaining HPs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BiPolar View Post
    So basically, the argument here is whether or not "gain" and "regain" are the same basic effect?
    No. Its the difference of regain and increase.

    Quote Originally Posted by RickAllison View Post
    When you put it like that, it actually seems appropriate.
    No disagreement here: I don't think it will break the bank at all. Very open to DM interpretation. My two cents is that it doesn't combine -- the life cleric has plenty of healing with a bump already.

    Quote Originally Posted by BiPolar View Post
    Seems kinda of silly and petty not to allow it. The difference between "gain" and "regain" is minimal. The primary effect is you are gaining HPs.
    Not petty, just legalistic. Its not a square peg in a round hole sort of concept, more of an octagon peg (which is certainly more round-ish) into a round hole.

    The difference between regain and increase is distinct but with minimally impact, almost like the difference between a townhome and a condo.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DivisibleByZero View Post
    Basically. It really just boils down to whether or not your DM want to allow you to upcast it by one level for free if you're a Life Cleric.
    Even with a liberal interpretation, Disciple of Life shouldn't apply to the maximum increased without a distinct houserule, at the very least.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gfishfunk View Post
    No. Its the difference of regain and increase.



    No disagreement here: I don't think it will break the bank at all. Very open to DM interpretation. My two cents is that it doesn't combine -- the life cleric has plenty of healing with a bump already.



    Not petty, just legalistic. Its not a square peg in a round hole sort of concept, more of an octagon peg (which is certainly more round-ish) into a round hole.

    The difference between regain and increase is distinct but with minimally impact, almost like the difference between a townhome and a condo.
    Very good point, and Jeremy Crawford agrees with you:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy Crawford, SageAdvice
    Disciple of Life benefits healing—the restoration of hp you've lost. Aid doesn't heal you. It gives you more hp.
    I stand corrected and begin my walk of shame.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saggo View Post
    Even with a liberal interpretation, Disciple of Life shouldn't apply to the maximum increased without a distinct houserule, at the very least.
    While I would allow for Disciple of Life on the current HP gain, I see no need for it to apply to max health. I think it provides a nice incentive for a lackluster spell.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RickAllison View Post
    When you put it like that, it actually seems appropriate.
    I agree.
    Don't get me wrong, I was/am strictly in the mindset that this is not healing, and that DoL wouldn't apply. But I can absolutely see valid reasoning why someone would allow it regardless of that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BiPolar View Post
    I stand corrected and begin my walk of shame.
    No need. The best discussions are the ones where everyone gets a little convinced one way or another. The worst are where people plant their flags and merely rant at each other -- there is too much of that happening around here (form, not thread).

    Quote Originally Posted by RickAllison View Post
    While I would allow for Disciple of Life on the current HP gain, I see no need for it to apply to max health. I think it provides a nice incentive for a lackluster spell.
    I might agree -- I would have to chew on it a bit. I think that is a fine houserule.

    The only thing I definitely disagree with here is that the spell is lackluster. Its actually really good. Don't look at it as five hp NOW. Look at it as 5 hp over and over again throughout the adventuring day.

    Even at character level 3, its pretty shiny. Suppose you had the following three party members with average HP rolls and 14 Con each: a wizard (hp 20), a fighter (hp 26), and a cleric (hp 26). The cleric casts aid, targeting all 3. That is a decently significant all-day (or most of the day) increase in HP, +25% for the Wizard, +20% for the fighter and the cleric. My numbers might be a little off (napkin math).
    Last edited by gfishfunk; 2017-03-16 at 09:46 AM.
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