What keeps a Sorcerer at Tier-2?

[Barstro]

Please note, this is specific to Pathfinder.

Gnaeus will probably soon be asking about what tier the Sorcerer should be. Rather than have this discussion on that upcoming thread (and potentially derailing it), I figured I post it now.

Accepting the fact that Wizard is Tier-1, what exactly keeps a Sorcerer Tier-2?

Observations and conclusions;
This is based on "all else equal". The retort of "but the Wizard gets ___" is ignoring my initial statement of "all else equal". I'm not discounting the fact that Wizards get shiny things, that just isn't important at this initial stage.

1) Spontaneous casting allows for more options on the fly. Spontaneous is preferred to prepared.
2) More spells per day allows the caster to do more things. More available spell slots is preferred
3) Assuming higher level spells are better than lower level spells; More high-level spell slots, even at the cost of lower slots, is preferred.

Assuming ONLY the above, Sorcerer appears to be better than a Wizard. All known spells are available at any given time and the Sorcerer generally has more spell slots.

The obvious counter arguments are;
1) At even levels, the Wizard can cast higher level spells.
2) The Sorcerer has only a limited number of spells known, so "being able to cast anything at any time" doesn't' mean much when "anything" is one of maybe a dozen spells.

I respond to #1 with "Sorcerers have more spell slots at all odd levels and all levels after 17.

I heartily accept #2 and call Sorcerers weaker. HOWEVER, sorcerers have access to Page of Spell Knowledge.

This really expensive, but it gives the Sorcerer pretty much all the versatility of a Wizard, and they still have more spells per day. As far as my limited knowledge goes, the only difference now is that a Wizard can prepare a metamagic version of a spell without increasing casting time.

I'm willing to concede that there are enough things about both classes I do not know which still keeps Wizard as the best Tier-1, but does Page of Spell Knowledge (along with time and money to purchase the same) elevate Sorcerers to Tier-1, or do they stay at Tier-2?

[Gellhorn]

(Note that my view of sorcerer tiering is T2 with the razmiran priest/false priest archetype making them T1 and imo better than wizards post 9)

First off, the difference in spells known gets a lot smaller once you factor in that the wizard should pretty much always be specialising.

Secondly, gaining access to spells a level earlier is *really* useful, more so than having a couple of extra spells, especially past early levels when you've got plenty of slots anyway.

Thirdly, if you're talking about JaronK's tier definitions (and most definitions I've seen, tbh), the key difference between T1 and T2 is being able to say "tomorrow I want to use this trick". Spell pages are handy yes (and funnily enough you can make them without knowing the spell with the correct feat which also halves their price) but they're a good amount more expensive than scrolls and to the best of my understanding the tier list tends to kinda disregard "they're tier 1 if they've got this specific build/item".

[Barstro]

(Note that my view of sorcerer tiering is T2 with the razmiran priest/false priest archetype making them T1 and imo better than wizards post 9)

First off, the difference in spells known gets a lot smaller once you factor in that the wizard should pretty much always be specialising.

Secondly, gaining access to spells a level earlier is *really* useful, more so than having a couple of extra spells, especially past early levels when you've got plenty of slots anyway.

Thirdly, if you're talking about JaronK's tier definitions (and most definitions I've seen, tbh), the key difference between T1 and T2 is being able to say "tomorrow I want to use this trick". Spell pages are handy yes (and funnily enough you can make them without knowing the spell with the correct feat which also halves their price) but they're a good amount more expensive than scrolls and to the best of my understanding the tier list tends to kinda disregard "they're tier 1 if they've got this specific build/item".

"First off"; the difference is smaller, but it still favors the Sorcerer.
"Secondly"; again is only at even levels. At odd levels, the Sorcerer is better. But, I agree; Wizard is much better at even levels and only slightly worse at odd levels (assuming all spell slots need to be used)
"Thirdly"; now we get into a debate over having money to do things, the ability trade with other casters, etc. We also get to debate the unlimited use of a Page of Spell Knowledge vs. the one-time use of a scroll.

I think that there can be specific Sorcerer builds that would classify at Tier-1 to the vast majority of people, but I agree that tiering should be general. If the "average" Sorcerer is still not Tier-1 with PoSK, then they should still be considered Tier-2.

[Gnaeus]

Please note, this is specific to Pathfinder.

Gnaeus will probably soon be asking about what tier the Sorcerer should be. Rather than have this discussion on that upcoming thread (and potentially derailing it), I figured I post it now.

Accepting the fact that Wizard is Tier-1, what exactly keeps a Sorcerer Tier-2?

Observations and conclusions;
This is based on "all else equal". The retort of "but the Wizard gets ___" is ignoring my initial statement of "all else equal". I'm not discounting the fact that Wizards get shiny things, that just isn't important at this initial stage.

1) Spontaneous casting allows for more options on the fly. Spontaneous is preferred to prepared.
2) More spells per day allows the caster to do more things. More available spell slots is preferred
3) Assuming higher level spells are better than lower level spells; More high-level spell slots, even at the cost of lower slots, is preferred.

Assuming ONLY the above, Sorcerer appears to be better than a Wizard. All known spells are available at any given time and the Sorcerer generally has more spell slots.

The obvious counter arguments are;
1) At even levels, the Wizard can cast higher level spells.
2) The Sorcerer has only a limited number of spells known, so "being able to cast anything at any time" doesn't' mean much when "anything" is one of maybe a dozen spells.

I respond to #1 with "Sorcerers have more spell slots at all odd levels and all levels after 17.

I heartily accept #2 and call Sorcerers weaker. HOWEVER, sorcerers have access to Page of Spell Knowledge.

This really expensive, but it gives the Sorcerer pretty much all the versatility of a Wizard, and they still have more spells per day. As far as my limited knowledge goes, the only difference now is that a Wizard can prepare a metamagic version of a spell without increasing casting time.

I'm willing to concede that there are enough things about both classes I do not know which still keeps Wizard as the best Tier-1, but does Page of Spell Knowledge (along with time and money to purchase the same) elevate Sorcerers to Tier-1, or do they stay at Tier-2?

Not gonna argue it here, better just to start the thread. But my answer in PF is really that there is a tipping point where more spells known> spells in spellbook. A 3.5 sorcerer has a hard time picking downtime spells at competitive levels. The PF sorcerer gets 9 bloodline spells, powers and up to 17 spells from favored class is likely enough spells. Yes, maybe there's a page of spell knowledge, a wand or scroll or 2, but when you hit as many spells known as the wizard has on his adventuring, overland and downtime lists (there will be overlap), the marginal trick of swapping out a specific spell is not necessarily better than the ability to use resist energy 6 times if you need to.

[Tuvarkz]

Regarding Spontaneous casting and options on the fly-the wizard can prepare a spell in as quick as 1 minute (arcane discovery), or 1 full round action (Exploiter Wizard or Spellbinder).

More spells per day only applies to non-Thassilonian (Sin Magic) Wizards, and although preferred, Runestones of Power cost twice as much as Pearls of Power, making it cheaper to recharge wizard spell slots than sorcerer ones. Plus, a wizard can be efficient with his spell slots, and needs not burn through all his stuff in each combat (And so can the sorcerer, but having less spell slots, each spell slot saved matters more for a wizard). Also, Split Slot is a thing.

And yeah, while a sorcerer spends thousands upon thousands carrying pages of spell knowledge, the wizard gets to transcribe many more spells, and use the remaining gold to grab rods/scrolls/wands/you name it. And Pages of Spell knowledge get crazy expensive with later levels. There are plenty of spells that don't really need CL or a strong DC scaling to do their job.

Also, want to know the rough difference in terms of spell amounts? A sorcerer gets around 50-something spells, 70 and some with the right FCB. 50-something is about the average number of spells in each school, and the Wizard gets 6 schools, plus ways to grab spells of his opposition ones too.

There's a reason why Paragon Surge used to be considered a Tier-1 enabler for Sorcerer, and the False Priest PrC is still one. Tier 1 is not about how big your nukes get, but how many different kinds of nuke you can have at hand.

[Epic Legand]

There are countless ways in which the wizard is better then the Sorc. Numerous feats, class ability's and magic items allow the wizard to swap out a prepared spell for one in there book. The higher you go in levels the vastly wider this gap becomes. This means a wizard can add a spell to his book for almost nothing, and yet, on the fly always have that available. How often do you need dimensional anchor ? Not often at mid levels, but pulling out of your book on the fly ? Priceless. Yes, a Sorc could buy endless scrolls and have them available, but the expansion of the Wizard spell book is almost geometrical once in game. Defeat the bad guy...get his spellbook, and add all of them to yours. Have a friend ? share spellbooks and swap. Buy a knowstone and the price rapidly become more then a +5 item...and you have added just ONE spell. Meanwhile, the wizard just added a hundred spells to his book for less money.
You also already know the wizard can alter his spell list day to day, so today, he's a fire mage and the white dragon has a bad day. Tomorrow, he's an information gathering guru while your recouping in town. The next day, he ferry's the whole party to a different land or dimension. Add into that the clear advantages of your main stat being Intelligence vs Charisma, and then keep in mind, most games are not at 20th level. At 5th level, the Wizard specialist is casting 3-4 3ed level spells, probably DIFFRENT spells. How many is the Sorcerer, ZERO ? This curve in favor of the Wizard is carried out in feats, magic items and class advancement.
Is the Sorcerer powerful and awesome, yes. Is there a clear advantage to the Wizard, Also yes.

[Bucky]

Ultimate Magic has a bunch of spellbooks that can be bought on the open market. They're much cheaper than Pages of Spell Knowledge of the same level and come with many spells each.

[Psyren]

I heartily accept #2 and call Sorcerers weaker. HOWEVER, sorcerers have access to Page of Spell Knowledge.

This really expensive, but it gives the Sorcerer pretty much all the versatility of a Wizard, and they still have more spells per day. As far as my limited knowledge goes, the only difference now is that a Wizard can prepare a metamagic version of a spell without increasing casting time.

But the obvious counter to this is that Wizards can spend the same amount of money on Pearls of Power instead, and thus bridge the spells/day gap. And that's if they even need to - at most tables, "I don't have enough spells today" is generally less of a problem than "I don't have the specific spell we need." Past the lowest levels, you'd need a lot of encounters in a given day before either class truly runs dry.

The Wizard can stock up on all kinds of unknown/situational spells during his downtime; the sorcerer doing the same via Pages becomes exponentially more expensive. If I need to go and get a given 7th level spell for instance, my wizard only needs 2275gp (scroll cost) + 490gp (scribing cost) = 2,765gp. The same endeavor for the sorcerer costs a whopping 49,000gp. And keep in mind this is per spell - while a wizard can get by with just a couple of generic pearls for his highest level spells, the sorcerer ends up needing a separate Page for every spell at a given level that his spells known don't cover. Take 5th-level spells for instance - at 10th level, the sorcerer gets only 1, while at 11th level, they get a second one plus one more from their bloodline; their FCB doesn't even kick in until 12th, so that's 3 total. I can easily think of more than 3 5th-level spells that are worth casting repeatedly, never mind 5th-level spells that are situationally valuable.

[Gellhorn]

Add into that the clear advantages of your main stat being Intelligence vs Charisma

Although it *is* always amusing to take the Int casting stat... especially since you can convert most of the important skills over to intelligence too.

There's a reason why Paragon Surge used to be considered a Tier-1 enabler for Sorcerer, and the False Priest PrC is still one. Tier 1 is not about how big your nukes get, but how many different kinds of nuke you can have at hand.

Minor point of correction- pretty sure you mean the False Priest archetype. The only False/Razmiran Priest PRC I can think of basically gives you some temporary HP cure X wounds spells and the ability to fool people into thinking they were real.

But yeah, people are expressing my points more eloquently than I could.

[Segev]

Numerous feats, class ability's and magic items allow the wizard to swap out a prepared spell for one in there book.

Is there a guide that has this information in it? I have not found many of these feats or magic items. I'm less interested in the class abilities, though I wouldn't turn my nose up at reading up on them, either.

[Peat]

Unless someone's redefined the Tier boundaries, the difference between a Wizard and a Sorcerer doesn't come down to how many nukes they can launch a day, its who's got the bigger overall arsenal of nukes. The Wizard (theoretically) has a huge arsenal of potential encounter enders and campaign solvers/ruiners. The Sorcerer's is limited by spells known and can't (money aside) have a huge arsenal.

For me, the question of whether Sorcerers are still Tier 2 at Pathfinder would hinge on how many 'nuke' spells there are. If there's 60 or so nukes and the Sorcerer gets 20/30 of them, are they still a tier below Wizards?

[Gnaeus]

I would add that wizard > sorcerer doesn't mean sorc is T2, since there are weaker T1s. Does Sorc > Witch or Druid in PF? If yes, PF sorc is T1

[Calthropstu]

If we allow 3rd party content, sorcerers are T1 with a simple trick of grabbing an item capable of manifesting psychic reformation.

Also, you guys have odd and even reversed. Sorcerers are better on even levels, 1st level, 19th level and 20th. So let's take a look:
Yes, there are ways, via spells, to completely obliterate wbl really late game. Most games end before reaching that point, but let's go level by level.

Lvl 1: Sorcerer is a clear winner. A wizard barely has enough spells to be useful for a single combat.
Lvl 2: Same as lvl 1. A wizard has just enough now to be useful in 2 combats if spells are stretched.
Lvl 3: Here is where the argument begins. Wizard gets lvl 2 spells first. The sorcerer still has more spells per day, and is still able to stretch himself for more encounters, but the 2nd level spells that can be used make the one combat they are used in a much bigger deal.
Lvl 4: Sorcerer now gets 2nd lvl spells, but they're a 1 trick pony. They don't get their bloodline spell until 5th, so they literally only have 1 2nd level spell. Granted, the wizard now only has 2 2nd level spells, but they can swap from day to day. And pages of spell knowledge are prohibitively expensive at this point. It's arguable who is better at this point. The wizard's lower spell count is still a major hindrance, but the versatility is starting to show.
5th level, wizards get 3rd level spells and can now generally stretch themselves across the standard adventuring day. Sorcerer comes into 2 more 2nd level spells known gaining reasonable versatility with 2nd level spells. The 3rd level spells the wizard has easily trumps the 2nd level spells, but again the spell count is still a thing.
6th level - 18th level: The dynamics of 4th and 5th level repeat. Spells per day are an issue at top tier spells, but as higher spells become available, and lower spells become obsolete the sorcerers numeric advantage in spells per day becomes less relevant, and the wizard's versatility becomes more relevant. Pages of spell knowledge at top tier spells remain prohibitively expensive throughout the life of the character.
Now there IS the fact you can use feats to gain more spells known, but feats are precious and better used elsewhere.

Outside of spell casting, the sorcerer has a huge social advantage being charisma based, while wizards have a major skill advantage being int based. The social advantage of the sorcerer makes them ideal for planar binding, which is a great way for them to overcome a huge amount of the handicaps of their spell restrictions.

Not so much with lesser planar binding, but with planar binding and greater planar binding they are able to call, with greater reliability than a wizard, spell casters with the same versatility as wizards. Greater can even call creatures with 9th level spells... getting them before other classes.

So there are ways to mitigate the whole spells known issue. With planar binding you can pretty much access any spell in the game... so beyond 12th level I say sorcerer wins out due to the fact they are better at binding than wizards are. But binding opens the door for a gm smack down so caution is advised.

[Bucky]

How good are Shadow Evocation/Conjuration/Necromancy/Enchantment at mitigating the Sorcerer's lack of versatility?

[Tuvarkz]

Although it *is* always amusing to take the Int casting stat... especially since you can convert most of the important skills over to intelligence too.



Minor point of correction- pretty sure you mean the False Priest archetype. The only False/Razmiran Priest PRC I can think of basically gives you some temporary HP cure X wounds spells and the ability to fool people into thinking they were real.

But yeah, people are expressing my points more eloquently than I could.

Yeah, the archetype. Got a bit distracted while writing that last part, my bad.

[Calthropstu]

How good are Shadow Evocation/Conjuration/Necromancy/Enchantment at mitigating the Sorcerer's lack of versatility?

Not very. You're using higher level spell slots to cast lower level spells.

[Felyndiira]

I would add that wizard > sorcerer doesn't mean sorc is T2, since there are weaker T1s. Does Sorc > Witch or Druid in PF? If yes, PF sorc is T1

I think this is the key point in this thread. Rather than comparing Sorcerers to Wizards, how are their versatility (especially when you factoring spells like the Shadow spells) compared to the weaker T1s? Can they solve more problems than the Cleric? The Druid? The Witch?

[Barstro]

I think this is the key point in this thread. Rather than comparing Sorcerers to Wizards, how are their versatility (especially when you factoring spells like the Shadow spells) compared to the weaker T1s? Can they solve more problems than the Cleric? The Druid? The Witch?

The point wasn't so much comparing Sorcerers to Wizards; it was trying to figure out what specific thing(s) dropped Sorcerers to Tier-2.
EDIT: Since Sorcerers are closest to Wizards and share the same spells, this seemed the logical choice to demonstrate the contrast.

The followup question was if Page of Spell Knowledge removes said Thing(s).

To respond the the argument I read most often (I admittedly only skimmed) is that Wizards get all sorts of spells, while Sorcerers need lots of money.

That is sort of a true arguments, but I think the details helps contradict it.

1) Wizards get lots of spells, but they still have to pay for them. Sure, it's less than Sorcerers for stuff, but knowledge of all spells is not inherent in the class (unlike, say, Cleric).

2) This is where my main question comes up (What makes Sorcerer Tier-2 instead of Tier-1); Books full of spells enable Wizards to prepare any spell required at a moment's notice. A Sorcerer is not so lucky.

2a) Again, a Sorcerer can have spent all sorts of money to obtain every PoSK, thus getting rid of that argument. I consider this a very questionable counter-argument and discount it greatly.

2b) A Sorcerer has his whole arsenal available right away. A Wizard had better know what is coming up, have coincidentally prepared for what he didn't know, or find the time to prepare a spell. He'd better not hope to do this in the middle of combat.

2b(2)) What length of time keeps thing "Tier-1"? With enough time (which isn't all that much), a Sorcerer can find somebody with the correct PoSK and use his fine charisma to rent it for a while.

The arguments above also depend on "Solve a Problem". A Wizard of sufficient level can, with enough time and money to obtain full spellbooks, solve any problem. Realistically, what number of spells are necessary for someone to be able to solve every problem if with a bit more difficulty than said rich Wizard?

To disagree with Peat;
A Sorcerer is the one with the larger arsenal. His arsenal just doesn't have as much variety. Which begs the question; how many varieties of apples do I really need to make a pie?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Two points that have yet to be raised:

The Sorcerer is only one level behind the Wizard in being able to CAST spells at a specific level, but you only know one spell. It takes two or three more before you have a decent set of options, by which time the Wizard is ahead again.

On the other hand, Paragon Surge.

[Barstro]

On the other hand, Paragon Surge.

I know I'm sort of making the argument that Sorcerer is Tier-1 (really, just trying to understand the difference), but I think Paragon Surge is such a BS/OP thing that I personally refuse to consider it part of the argument.

I'm also not bringing Mythic into this :)

[Bucky]

Air Bubble, Comprehend Languages, Detect Metal, Disguise Self, Keep Watch, Mount, Touch of the Sea, Unseen Servant. All first level spells that can solve a situation and that a sorcerer is unlikely to know more than one of.

[Calthropstu]

Sorcerer is easily so close to t1 it's easy enough to consider them borderline.
With tricks available to surpass their limitations (Psychic reformation, binding, feat selection + retrain, PoSK + wealth generation cheese and probably a slew of other tricks I'm not considering) sorcerers can easily break their mold. Similar with Oracles (for the exact same reasons).

But one argument I can see for keeping them t2: T1 classes don't need such tricks. T1 classes are T1 regardless of tricks or optimization.

[Barstro]

The Sorcerer is only one level behind the Wizard in being able to CAST spells at a specific level, but you only know one spell. It takes two or three more before you have a decent set of options, by which time the Wizard is ahead again.

Absolutely. In fact, it's so obvious that I think it was understood by all. However, you are correct to bring it up.

To delve into it further;
The Wizard relying only on Class has a few more options, but (without foreknowledge) might not have the correct spell prepared. A Sorcerer could, at the very least, cast several more lower level spells.

Throwing money at the issue and getting some clairvoyance, the Wizard can now solve any problem with those many extra spells. Could not a Sorcerer be able to do so as well with scrolls, etc?

Maybe part of my issue is that Tier-1 seems to be assuming a fully prepared Wizard. Would that mean that a Wizard who doesn't plan ahead is Tier-2? Cannot a Sorcerer plan ahead as well (even if not quite so well)?

[Calthropstu]

Air Bubble, Comprehend Languages, Detect Metal, Disguise Self, Keep Watch, Mount, Touch of the Sea, Unseen Servant. All first level spells that can solve a situation and that a sorcerer is unlikely to know more than one of.

Or that a wizard will have more than one of memorized, and half of which are likely not even in his spell book.

[Zanos]

If we're bringing magic items into this, may I present, for the enterprising spontaneous wizard:

Amulet of Magecraft
Spectacles of Annihilation

[Barstro]

a sorcerer is unlikely to know more than one of.

I don't think that generalizations like that are a basis of good argument. But, that's only my opinion.

Air Bubble, Comprehend Languages, Detect Metal, Disguise Self, Keep Watch, Mount, Touch of the Sea, Unseen Servant. All first level spells that can solve a situation

If those are first-level spells, then the Sorcerer can very easily and cheaply have PoSK for each. Thank you for a list of things I will have my Sorcerer pick up.

[Segev]

Referring to phantom conjuration and its kin, and answering a question of how far they go to combat a sorcerer's lack of versatility:

Not very. You're using higher level spell slots to cast lower level spells.

Remember that the sorcerer has more spell slots at those higher levels than does a wizard, so he could devote a number of them equal to the difference and still "keep up" in that regard.

Where this still comes to bite them is that the Sorcerer is giving up a higher-level spell known to achieve this versatility with lower-level spells. Which cuts quite a bit more sharply, because the place he's already non-versatile is costing him other of-level options for versatility to achieve below-level options at greater versatility.

[Calthropstu]

Absolutely. In fact, it's so obvious that I think it was understood by all. However, you are correct to bring it up.

To delve into it further;
The Wizard relying only on Class has a few more options, but (without foreknowledge) might not have the correct spell prepared. A Sorcerer could, at the very least, cast several more lower level spells.

Throwing money at the issue and getting some clairvoyance, the Wizard can now solve any problem with those many extra spells. Could not a Sorcerer be able to do so as well with scrolls, etc?

Maybe part of my issue is that Tier-1 seems to be assuming a fully prepared Wizard. Would that mean that a Wizard who doesn't plan ahead is Tier-2? Cannot a Sorcerer plan ahead as well (even if not quite so well)?

I believe the argument is actually assuming a wizard can leave a spell slot open, come upon a problem, open his spell book, memorize the spell he needs in 10 minutes, solve the problem and keep going.
Which doesn't exactly help when the situation calls for immediate action.

[Barstro]

But one argument I can see for keeping them t2: T1 classes don't need such tricks. T1 classes are T1 regardless of tricks or optimization.

I don't consider "tricks" to be worth an argument. As I stated, Paragon Surge takes care of all of this, but it's (IMO) cheese and shouldn't be allowed.

However, Wizards need tricks too (with a lowercase "t", instead of the Sorcerer's need for capital "T" Tricks (cheese)). A Wizard is only as good as what he prepares that day. He cannot improvise unless he has enough time and an open slot.

[Epic Legand]

Paragon surge is banned at many tables, as is much 3ed party content. Psyic Reformat is honestly broken for psyics, retooling it for arcane is much worse with their 10X larger pool of spells to pick from.
T1 is listed as game smashing power and ability to solve tons of problems T2 is similar power with fewer options. Clearly the Sorc is T2. Can the Sorc use up his money, feats, and class features to gain some of what the wizard starts of with? Yes....Meanwhile, the wizard gets all those things, and can further custonise or enhance themselves.