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2017-03-15, 08:08 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2010
Persistent Spell requires Extend.. any way to get that for free?
I, like most, hate feat taxes. Knowing you will never use a feat you need to take is a rubbish feeling. There are, however, sometimes ways to either get a feat without having to explicitly choose it (class feature, item) or to count as having such a feat (like a related feat that will work as a prerequisite explicitly).
Does such a solution exist for Persistent Spell requiring Extend Spell? I can't imagine ever wanting to extend any spell, really...
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2017-03-15, 08:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2006
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- Pittsburgh, PA
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Re: Persistent Spell requires Extend.. any way to get that for free?
The... Planning Domain, I want to say, gives it for free? Along with any number of bonus-metamagic-feat classes.
Hill Giant Games
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2017-03-15, 08:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2010
Re: Persistent Spell requires Extend.. any way to get that for free?
Planning? What's that from?
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2017-03-15, 08:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2014
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Re: Persistent Spell requires Extend.. any way to get that for free?
I believe it is either from one of the FR books, or SpC.
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2017-03-15, 08:28 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2012
Re: Persistent Spell requires Extend.. any way to get that for free?
Clerics can get it from the Planning domain (SpC). Incantatrix gets bonus metamagic feats at various levels, as does Ultimate Magus iirc. (So do various other arcane PrCs, but with Persistent Spell i'm assuming you're aiming for some kind of metamagic reduction).
That said there are a lot of spells that benefit from Extend.
Basically every 1 hour/level buff before level 15-16 or so to make it last all day.
Any 24 hour buff so you only have to cast it every second day.
A lot 10 minute/level spells also qualify by the mid levels, but it's more situational.
It's also useful on utility spells and non-combat spells like Charm, Dominate, Command Undead or other long-duration spells like that. The level adjustment is definitely worth double duration with a lot of those.
Also keep in mind that Persist has more restrictions on what it can affect. You can extend basically anything with a duration.
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2017-03-15, 08:33 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2010
Re: Persistent Spell requires Extend.. any way to get that for free?
True. It'd be nice if Haste could be persisted, but I guess Extend is the only real option there. I see your point.
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2017-03-15, 09:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2006
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- Pittsburgh, PA
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Re: Persistent Spell requires Extend.. any way to get that for free?
Hill Giant Games
I make indie gaming books for you!Spoiler
STaRS: A non-narrativeist, generic rules-light system.
Grod's Guide to Greatness, 2e: A big book of player options for 5e.
Grod's Grimoire of the Grotesque: An even bigger book of variant and expanded rules for 5e.
Giants and Graveyards: My collected 3.5 class fixes and more.
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2017-03-15, 09:12 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2010
Re: Persistent Spell requires Extend.. any way to get that for free?
If you can find a way to target yourself with an ocular spell that is not completely ridiculous??
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2017-03-15, 09:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2006
- Location
- Pittsburgh, PA
- Gender
Re: Persistent Spell requires Extend.. any way to get that for free?
Hill Giant Games
I make indie gaming books for you!Spoiler
STaRS: A non-narrativeist, generic rules-light system.
Grod's Guide to Greatness, 2e: A big book of player options for 5e.
Grod's Grimoire of the Grotesque: An even bigger book of variant and expanded rules for 5e.
Giants and Graveyards: My collected 3.5 class fixes and more.
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2017-03-15, 10:12 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2011
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2017-03-15, 10:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2011
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Re: Persistent Spell requires Extend.. any way to get that for free?
"Swift Haste" is a L2 personal 1d4 rounds version of haste in the Spell Compendium. Disadvantage: it's a ranger spell.
Build help: Piercing Immunities | Skillfull full casters | Uptier base classes | Top 10 spells/level
PO: Core Fighter 20 > Pit Fiend | Whale Wrestler | Minimal Mailman | Wizard 1 > Fighter 1 | Team Mundane
TO: ExFighter | Eliminate spell defenses | All spells in no time | Planar Soldiers of Mystra | Best Nuke | Warmage vs. Favored Soul | Death Cults | E6 Circle Magic
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2017-03-15, 02:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2010
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2017-03-15, 02:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2016
Re: Persistent Spell requires Extend.. any way to get that for free?
The nice thing about Swift Haste is that Archivists can learn it.
Archivists with Turn Undead are better than Clerics at being Persist-bots due to the sheer number of spells they can learn.
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2017-03-15, 02:54 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2012
Re: Persistent Spell requires Extend.. any way to get that for free?
Unless you allow Nightstick stacking and give your players significantly raised wealth you won't be persisting more than a small handful of spells anyway, and there's enough of them around even just on the cleric list to make choosing a hassle.
Not to mention that you need to wait a while to get TU without losing caster progression (Sacred Exorcist).
I'd rather get DMM:Persist by level 3, two (or even three) free domains and the better chassis of the cleric.
Not to mention that clerics aren't exactly lacking in options to access other lists, between Anyspell and the Divine Magician ACF.
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2017-03-15, 03:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2017
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- Koboldous Cavern
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Re: Persistent Spell requires Extend.. any way to get that for free?
In Magic Item Compendium there are Domain Draughts, which give you 24-hour access to domain spells and granted power. I think you could drink a Planning one before gaining a feat, and take Persist Spell.
It isn't the best option (they are pretty expensive, 3300 gp) but hey, that's somethig right?
If you want to play wizard there is alsoDomain Granted Power ACF (form Complete Champion i think) which gives you the chosen domain granted power
For this ACF you need to give up the feat in exchange, so you could just take Extend Spell.Last edited by xkroku; 2017-03-15 at 03:16 PM. Reason: Stupid mistake.
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2017-03-15, 04:44 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2014
Re: Persistent Spell requires Extend.. any way to get that for free?
DCFS trick allows you to change any feat to any other legally accessible feat. So take 1 level dip into a class that grants your access to some useless feats and convert them to useful.
Cleric with War and Metal domains grants you 4 feats. They could be suspended with the divine interdiction spell though. Stalwart dragonblooded sorcerer grants you 3 feats without any obligations towards your deity.
Being elf grants your 4 bonus feats and you should not worry about -2 Con loss, since it could be lifted with druid's reincarnation.
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2017-03-15, 06:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2011
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Re: Persistent Spell requires Extend.. any way to get that for free?
I agree that clerics have better access both in terms of level and quantity to DMM[Persistent spell]. But an archivist that tries can persist about 2 dozen spells without breaking wealth by level or stacking nightsticks. This is enough that the spell access of an archivist has some value. Furthermore, it's enough that the cleric will probably be scraping the bottom of the barrel if it goes all out and persists 4 dozen spells.
Consider a human Archivist 18/Sacred Exorcist 1/Contemplative 1(Undeath->Extra Turning), with feats:
Human: Extend Spell
1. Persistent Spell
3,6,9,12,15 Extra Turning
18. DMM[Persistent Spell]
Archivist 10. Easy Metamagic(Persistent Spell)
That is 6 Extra Turnings (7 with a nightstick). Let's assume Charisma is enhanced to 20, so effectively 7x4+5+3 = 36 Turn Undeads
Then:
1) Shapechange to change into an old Tome Dragon (24HD).
2) Cast spells with DMM[Persistent Spell] using Free Metamagic (-3) from Tome Dragon and Easy Metamagic (-1), reducing the metamagic cost to +2 for 3 turn undeads. Hence, we have budget for 12 spells.
3) Use 4 rods of extend spell to double the duration of each spell. Now you can keep 24 persistent spells up all the time.Build help: Piercing Immunities | Skillfull full casters | Uptier base classes | Top 10 spells/level
PO: Core Fighter 20 > Pit Fiend | Whale Wrestler | Minimal Mailman | Wizard 1 > Fighter 1 | Team Mundane
TO: ExFighter | Eliminate spell defenses | All spells in no time | Planar Soldiers of Mystra | Best Nuke | Warmage vs. Favored Soul | Death Cults | E6 Circle Magic
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2017-03-15, 06:44 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2016
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- DPT's Window
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Re: Persistent Spell requires Extend.. any way to get that for free?
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2017-03-15, 06:59 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2007
Re: Persistent Spell requires Extend.. any way to get that for free?
True, but that relies burning all your feats for the purpose (and using DFCS or something to swap the pre-Exorcist feats for Extra Turning), and doesn't come fully online until you have Shapechange. At 15th level, for instance, as high as many games reach, you're only looking at 5 spells/day, so 10 total.
Last edited by icefractal; 2017-03-15 at 07:02 PM.
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2017-03-15, 08:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2011
- Gender
Re: Persistent Spell requires Extend.. any way to get that for free?
I agree about the feats, but you can use them a little bit more efficiently.
At 15th level, you would want to use Assume Supernatural Ability with Polymorph[Young Adult Tome Dragon] so that persistent spell is only +3 metamagic. You drop to ~28 Turn undeads, implying persisting 7 spells/day or 14 with appropriate rods.Build help: Piercing Immunities | Skillfull full casters | Uptier base classes | Top 10 spells/level
PO: Core Fighter 20 > Pit Fiend | Whale Wrestler | Minimal Mailman | Wizard 1 > Fighter 1 | Team Mundane
TO: ExFighter | Eliminate spell defenses | All spells in no time | Planar Soldiers of Mystra | Best Nuke | Warmage vs. Favored Soul | Death Cults | E6 Circle Magic
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2017-03-15, 08:45 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2011
- Gender
Re: Persistent Spell requires Extend.. any way to get that for free?
Build help: Piercing Immunities | Skillfull full casters | Uptier base classes | Top 10 spells/level
PO: Core Fighter 20 > Pit Fiend | Whale Wrestler | Minimal Mailman | Wizard 1 > Fighter 1 | Team Mundane
TO: ExFighter | Eliminate spell defenses | All spells in no time | Planar Soldiers of Mystra | Best Nuke | Warmage vs. Favored Soul | Death Cults | E6 Circle Magic
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2017-03-15, 11:07 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2017
- Gender
Re: Persistent Spell requires Extend.. any way to get that for free?
The Cleric wins the DMM game for one simple reason: Rebuke Dragons/Channel Incarnum. Getting one of those two at 1st level and Turn Undead from Sacred Exorcist gives you twice as much turning and 8 extra turns for every Extra Turning feat. It's so good that Easy Metamagic is actually a wasted feat until you have greater than 20 Cha & Extra Turning at least 5 times.
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2017-03-15, 11:08 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2007
Re: Persistent Spell requires Extend.. any way to get that for free?
Huh didn't know you could get it for free...then again I usually Extend my Persistents too that way I can alternate casting days and not burn as many turns.
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2017-03-16, 10:34 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2011
Re: Persistent Spell requires Extend.. any way to get that for free?
Let me give you a brief rundown of an average Post-3E Era fight: You attack an enemy and start kicking his shins. He then starts kicking your shins, then you take it in turns kicking until one of you falls over. It basically comes down to who started the battle with the biggest boot, and the only strategy involved is realizing when things have gone tits up and legging it.