OOTS #1068 - The Discussion Thread

[happycrow]

After Apocalypse:
Northern Pantheon -- 0 worshipers, 30 million souls
Odin -- 0 worshippers, 7 million souls
Thor -- 0 worshippers, 4 million souls
Hel -- 0 worshippers, 12 million souls
etc.

And what Loki gets and Hel doesn't is the following:

World Two:
Converts to Northern Pantheon -- 0
Converts FROM Northern Pantheon -- 100%
Migrants to Northern Pantheon Regions -- 0
Migrants from Northern Pantheon Regions -- LOTS

World 2 Northern Pantheon Worshippers, Life Mid-Point: 158,000 (all giants)

[Kantaki]

And what Loki gets and Hel doesn't is the following:

World Two:
Converts to Northern Pantheon -- 0
Converts FROM Northern Pantheon -- 100%
Migrants to Northern Pantheon Regions -- 0
Migrants from Northern Pantheon Regions -- LOTS

World 2 Northern Pantheon Worshippers, Life Mid-Point: 158,000 (all giants)

That's why you surround your domain with a mountain range too high to climb and a desert too vast to cross.

[littlebum2002]

And what Loki gets and Hel doesn't is the following:

World Two:
Converts to Northern Pantheon -- 0
Converts FROM Northern Pantheon -- 100%
Migrants to Northern Pantheon Regions -- 0
Migrants from Northern Pantheon Regions -- LOTS

World 2 Northern Pantheon Worshippers, Life Mid-Point: 158,000 (all giants)

WHy would Loki be getting converts but not Hel? Am I missing something?

[SilverCacaobean]

A living worshiper might well be a lot more valuable than a soul -- I think that makes more sense than the reverse. In fact, the pantheons may well be all weaker in absolute terms for not having living worshippers. But when everyone has exactly zero worshippers, all you got is souls to fuel you.

I agree with that. I agree because at some point living worshipers become souls, so it's in the deity's best interest to have them serve as long as they can in life. Sure there will be people converting to and from the religion but I think, barring extraordinary circumstances, the converts to and from will even out and in the end the number of worshipers a deity had will become souls.

However, I think a death gives you power faster. So let's say a worshiper's life is worth 1 power "point" per x years of service, a death is 1 immediately. (This could explain evil deities demanding follower sacrifices, too. I mean, if there were deities that demand follower sacrifices in OotS. I can't remember Nergal's plan too well right now).


But yeah. Hel's plan only works because she will not only get all the dwarven souls, she will get them exactly when all others lose all their worshipers.

[Keltest]

WHy would Loki be getting converts but not Hel? Am I missing something?

What he (the poster, not Loki) means is that, should Hel take over the hypothetical North 3.0, everybody will be fleeing it because of it being a monster-infested helhole that actively punishes you for living there.

[Jasdoif]

However, I think a death gives you power faster.

The theory has support:

It's a fictional story. It works because I say it works, and the rest of the story will be written as if it works. I, the author of the comic, am telling you that the math works out in Hel's favor no matter how you try to calculate it.

Do you need an explanation? Fine. Let's say—and I am absolutely making this up on the spot, but it still counts—that getting a dead soul gives a god a burst of power at the moment that it happens, and then a much lower long-term generation of power over the course of centuries (say, 1/1000th as much) until the soul eventually merges into whatever it merges into and stops contributing completely. Therefore, getting 10 million in one day will grant a huge boost of power to Hel that she can use immediately to gain more influence over the world-making process. All the previous souls that died had their power boosts used up by their respective gods doing things like granting spells and making miracles and such, things that Hel barely does. And once she can influence the world-building process, she can set up the rules differently so that she isn't at such a disadvantage anymore, leading to more consistent generation of power going forward.

There. Now all the math doesn't matter, because as of this post, the amount of power granted at one time greatly outweighs the accumulated drip of power over the previous however-many centuries.

But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?

[Ruslan]

Just realized that Hel was introduced as the keeper of dishonored dead dwarven souls in strip #737, in what appeared to be a one-off throwaway gag. That's more than five years of foreshadowing before the point when she votes YES to destroy the world for exactly this reason.

[Keltest]

Just realized that Hel was introduced as the keeper of dishonored dead dwarven souls in strip #737, in what appeared to be a one-off throwaway gag. That's more than five years of foreshadowing before the point when she votes YES to destroy the world for exactly this reason.

I don't think it counts as foreshadowing past the end of BRITF, where we explicitly learn shes up to something.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

However, I think a death gives you power faster. So let's say a worshiper's life is worth 1 power "point" per x years of service, a death is 1 immediately.

As described, I'm thinking that live worshipers don't provide any power at all. Worshipers are important because eventually they die and give both a burst and slow drip of power. Living worshipers are also necessary to, you know, get more worshipers (via reproduction & conversion), but otherwise they are an investment at best, and a drain on your power at worst (since you have to use part of the souls to power the cleric spells).

Losing a 5th of your worshipers is a problem for Tiamat because even though she gets a burst of power right now, she's not interested in getting that, if it means a depletion of her ability to retain worshipers (i.e. she's playing the long game). To Hel, that is not a problem because she has none anyway.

I do wonder if Hel was sold/tricked on the idea of getting the dishonoured dead in exchange for not having worshipers because she saw them as a burden; she got greedy, thinking she could get soul power without having to grant spells, and only after the fact realised just how bad the deal was.

Grey Wolf

[Ruslan]

I don't think it counts as foreshadowing past the end of BRITF, where we explicitly learn shes up to something.

We learn she's up to something, but only when she votes YES, we learn it's all about the dishonored dwarven dead.

But even if we put the mark there, that makes about four years.

[Snails]

Ritual sacrifices might be a means for the god to gain/steal a slice of that power, regardless of where the soul finally ends up. So it is a nice net gain to have Malack slaughter a thousand non-Nergal worshippers a day to honor Nergal. It might be nicer to gain converts over the very long haul, but the ritual slaughter now is a lot of birds in the hand.

Sacrifices of s god's own followers to that same god might be better still, but there are practical limits to that option.

Thanks, Jasdoif, for the quote. The Giant's reasoning presented basically says that already dead souls are a minor factor compared to a big boost now, so we do not have to make any restrictive assumptions about how many dead souls could have been already gained by whom over the eons.

It even allows for the possibility that these pantheons rule over other worlds/planes, while not necessarily affecting the math in the OotSworld. (Of course, one might wonder what the heck happens on other material planes when an entire pantheon is eaten by the Snarl in the OotSworld.)

[Snails]

#737 is not necessarily foreshadowing, but it is legit "pipe laying" (meaning the author is putting the work in early to have the "plumbing" in place for something greater later on).

It introduces the idea that the fate of souls may not be quite as sensible as we would probably guess, based on Roy's experience, at least when it comes to the Northern pantheon worshippers.

[Ruslan]

From Wikipedia:

Foreshadowing is a dramatic device in which an important plot-point is mentioned early in the story and will return in a more significant way

This instance fits the definition to a tee. "Hel likes it when dwarves die dishonorably" is a plot point that is mentioned early in the story and later returns in a more significant way.

[Snails]

It is arguably either or both.

IMO it fits the definition of "laying pipe" better:

laying pipe: Giving technical information now so we’ll know it later when a story point turns on it.

Or:

laying pipe
n.— «“laying pipe”: writing and delivering the onerous dialogue which provids backstory and the plot facts needed to support the weight of the funny (or interesting). Exposition, kids, and it ain’t fun. Example: “Geesh, all Dougie’s doing this scene is laying pipe. Couldn’t we give him a joke?” One always strives to lay pipe in an interesting way, or “hide the pipe” in an otherwise entertaining sequence. Such a two-for one is a pleasant flourish signifying your professional ability, like a nice chip shot.» —“Writing: Jargon Preservation” by John Rogers Kung Fu Monkey Apr. 15, 2005. (source: Double-Tongued Dictionary)

I think of foreshadowing as more often an emotional hint about what is to come. Background facts that make later plot points comprehensible is "pipe".

[happycrow]

WHy would Loki be getting converts but not Hel? Am I missing something?

Sorry. "gets" here as US/native English slang for "understands."

[KorvinStarmast]

It is arguably either or both.

Or:

Laying pipe has some slang usages that might get the rumpus in this thread started again, but I will say ay I was a little grossed out when you all began to discuss Loki, Hel, and laying pipe ... Loki's her dad.

[SilverCacaobean]

I'm thinking that live worshipers don't provide any power at all.

No, no. Live worshipers grant favor and with it you can train Minotaurs, Cyclopes, Manticores and stuff!

[Jasdoif]

No, no. Live worshipers grant favor and with it you can train Minotaurs, Cyclopes, Manticores and stuff!

No no, you're thinking the wrong pantheon. If you're even in position to consider Hel, you need combat and/or hersir for favor.

[The MunchKING]

No no, you're thinking the wrong pantheon. If you're even in position to consider Hel, you need combat and/or hersir for favor.

Jotenblut is pretty cool, but I think I prefer Aerte myself.

[SaintRidley]

The theory has support:

Now I want to know how many 9th level spells a soul can power. From there, we can work out the gp equivalent for a scroll of such a spell, and thus establish a meaningful exchange rate between souls and gold, thus opening the Lower Planes to Material Plane trade interests.

[Kish]

In "default" D&D worlds anyway, I'm pretty sure night hags got there ahead of you.

[Jasdoif]

Now I want to know how many 9th level spells a soul can power. From there, we can work out the gp equivalent for a scroll of such a spell, and thus establish a meaningful exchange rate between souls and gold, thus opening the Lower Planes to Material Plane trade interests.

Based solely on the fact that the life and death salient divine ability has a rest requirement dependent on how many hit dice the creature has, whereas the referenced true resurrection isn't affected by the creature's hit dice; I'm pretty sure there's more to Soul Power^TM than just power for casting spells.


But that's not what you asked!

Spoiler: Banana-Storming

Show

For the starting point, a devourer can trap a living creature's life essence, and each level that creature has is sufficient for five uses of its spell-like abilities. Assuming that's representative for using its highest level spell-like abilities....

The highest level of its spell-like abilities is control undead at 7th, but as a rather esoteric spell wielded by an undead creature I'm not convinced it's representative. Next down is true seeing; the overall list of spells and DCs suggests using the Sorcerer/Wizard spell level is appropriate, so that's 6th.

Scroll cost is exponential since the minimum caster level increases along with the spell level; a similar pattern to how XP requirements for levels increase. However, the devourer's caster level of 18 is already sufficient for 9th-level spells, so I'm going to assume a linear increase by spell level.

5*6=30 spell levels per hit dice, 30/9 to get to 9th-level....So three and a third 9th-level spells for each hit die, or ten 9th-level spells for every three hit dice.


Now if we're actually talking about converting souls to scrolls....A 9th-level cleric/druid/wizard scroll has a market price of 3,825gp, so it takes four days to make one, so it would take four 9th-level spells....OK, doubling the rate above makes twenty 9th-level spells for every six hit dice, which is evenly divisible by four. So six hit dice is enough for five scrolls.

3825*5=19125

That's the market price though, half the market price is still used in materials (I'm assuming the soul provides the XP as well as the slot). So....

19125/2=9562.5

So six hit dice is enough for 9562.5gp. Meaning....

9562.5/6=1593.75

Now if you're selling these things, you're going to have a markup anyway. Therefore, let's save ourselves some trouble and round up a bit:

Each hit die per soul would sell for 1600gp, plus any additional markup.


Kind of.