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  1. - Top - End - #91

    Default Re: OOTS #1068 - The Discussion Thread

    The point of this sexist behavior, Ganbatte, is that you will not earn anything no matter what you do. Which makes it the by far much easier course to just knuckle under. and accept that you will get jack squat no matter what you do.

  2. - Top - End - #92
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    Default Re: OOTS #1068 - The Discussion Thread

    The Giant's opponent is disarmed.

    She could be hell on wheels. She could be full of unearned resentments.

    We don't know.

    Meanwhile, the joke was hilarious if you've lived in the appropriate RL social contexts.
    Don't get why this is even a debate.

  3. - Top - End - #93
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    Default Re: OOTS #1068 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganbatte View Post
    If given no choice, eventually, they'll learn to accept who you actually are.
    What if they do have a choice? Say, if they have enough influence with your commander to get you demoted/terminated, or if your commander is the one expecting you to conform to their expectations in the first place?

    It's still an inefficient way for them to go about doing things, but it's often amazing how far people go to reinforce their own notions of how the world is.
    Last edited by Jasdoif; 2017-03-15 at 03:43 PM.
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  4. - Top - End - #94
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    Default Re: OOTS #1068 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganbatte View Post
    Then earn the trust of your team. Beat them up (friendly) sometimes. Save their lifes a few times. Sometimes play it slightly low, sometimes show them you're worthy of respect by kicking their faces to the ground. Show them you're not what they believe or would like you to be.
    If given no choice, eventually, they'll learn to accept who you actually are.
    If they believe you to be a weakling and want you to fit that status the worst possible thing you can do is kneel down and act like the weakling they see. You'll never earn anything like that.
    That's what they want. You to earn nothing.

    They're not going to be fair, nor to acknowledge you did a good job, nor that you're worthy of respect.

    To put this in perspective: when sexist guys see a man outdone by a woman, do you think they'd go "ahaha, you were beaten by a girl" or "whoa, this woman is awesome"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganbatte View Post
    Then succeed and put all that to silence.
    A woman succeeding isn't going to make sexist bigots stop talking about how inferior she is. Bigotry is not rational.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ganbatte View Post
    Because unlike all the other warrios her aggression is entirely directed at herself and her colleagues/society. It's like she's not even seeing Roy there, so it's totally throwing a fit.
    "I'm going to kill every single on of you to prove those jerks I'm awesome" while unleashing deadly force on an unarmed combatant is not directing her aggression toward the people on the Mechane?

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    Default Re: OOTS #1068 - The Discussion Thread

    In addition to the other points being raised, a woman succeeding is not going to change their worldview. In a weird way, it's going to reinforce it: if she actually manages to gain the men's respect (and thus move beyond the "haha, you were beaten by a girl!" thing), that woman will be seen as praiseworthy, but also as exceptional, extraordinary, a manly woman. It takes a lot more momentum to change such a worldview.
    Last edited by hroşila; 2017-03-15 at 03:49 PM.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1068 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Joerg View Post
    Hmm, I would not have expected that frost giantess to be someone who downplays her own abilities because of social pressure. But then, I didn't know much about her and even less about frost giant society.

    It's somehow sad that she was holding back and that perhaps contributed to the death of her colleague. Also that she seems to be more concerned with these issues than with that death. But then, perhaps the death isn't that terrible because of a probable "raise dead" spell. Or perhaps she really hated him?

    Anyway, it's difficult for me to imagine that if I was fighting together with someone and he was killed (and it was partially my fault) my primary thought would be "finally I can show how good I am at fighting". I guess frost giantesses in OotS world are too far away from my own experiences.
    Well... she is a frost giant, that is, not exactly big on the smarts department.
    In a way it's actually a pretty realistic characterization overall. She has the means to change things but doesn't realize it, and takes it out venting on everything thus indirectly punching Roy harder.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogar Demonblud View Post
    The point of this sexist behavior, Ganbatte, is that you will not earn anything no matter what you do. Which makes it the by far much easier course to just knuckle under. and accept that you will get jack squat no matter what you do.
    Yeah no. There used to be a time when sexism made it impossible for women to vote, talk or even go out alone.
    You do can change things, but first you have to act. Abiding the rules by playing the weakling while whining that things don't turn around by themselves magically isn't gonna work.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1068 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay R View Post
    The ship is below 10,000 feet, not on the pass, circling around a mountain, and aiming for a different pass. This will guarantee not finding it.
    And it's still moving.
    Just a quick question: how much airborne aerial reconnaissance have you flown IRL? Think three dimensionally ...

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    Default Re: OOTS #1068 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganbatte View Post
    makes them look kinda wacky
    What?! A webcomic being wacky?! Say it ain't so!

    That's the point. It's a joke.

    She's describing a real situation that can happen when women are working with men, but applying it to a medieval fantasy elite giant fighting squad where it doesn't make a whole lot of sense (it makes a little sense, but it's a bit harder to apply it one-for-one here).

    Contradictions = jokes = funny

    *sigh*

    EDIT: Just want to also point out here that as a woman who works in the technology sector in a technical capacity, I can vouch for this situation being very real and present in our society. Yes, the "right" thing to do can be to speak out and fight back, but it can be difficult when you have a family depending on you to bring home that paycheque and sometimes you just want to keep your head down and carry on carrying on. It's hard to fight back when you feel completely and utterly isolated (because there is literally no other woman in your department), so let's cut this giantess some slack here. Fighting back is great, but it's something that you have to work up to and not just a switch you turn on.
    Last edited by aurilee; 2017-03-15 at 03:58 PM.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1068 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by aurilee View Post
    Contradictions = jokes = funny
    *sigh*
    Well described, not to mention Rich trolled the board beautifully with this strip ... some people bit.

    I think that Shining Wrath made the best point in a single post in the back and forth bickering.

    I am pretty sure Rich never served in the military, so I don't think the point he is making is based on that sub culture. I had the experience of serving while American military culture change from 1976 to 2015 ... and it changed a lot, which included a whole lot of progress for women getting to play a larger role in the line units. Culture change takes time, but change can happen if the leadership is willing to make it a priority.

    Back on topic: I am not sure how motivated OoTSverse Frost Giant leadership is to change, nor how open they are to change. If she dies in this fight, which seems likely, the ruling council may only see this as "one more soldier lost" ... and never have appreciated what talent they had in the first place.
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2017-03-15 at 04:04 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1068 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by aurilee View Post
    What?! A webcomic being wacky?! Say it ain't so!

    That's the point. It's a joke.

    She's describing a real situation that can happen when women are working with men, but applying it to a medieval fantasy elite giant fighting squad where it doesn't make a whole lot of sense (it makes a little sense, but it's a bit harder to apply it one-for-one here).

    Contradictions = jokes = funny

    *sigh*
    Wacky in terms of narrative, not comic effect. It feels very goofy to try to parallel real life job situations to... giants killing people with axes.
    Especially when the situation and what the giantess is saying directly contradict each other.

  11. - Top - End - #101
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    Default Re: OOTS #1068 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganbatte View Post
    Yeah no. There used to be a time when sexism made it impossible for women to vote, talk or even go out alone.
    You do can change things, but first you have to act. Abiding the rules by playing the weakling while whining that things don't turn around by themselves magically isn't gonna work.
    And women acted for centuries, without much of a change. A major factor why the Western cultures are less sexist than before nowadays is because the successive World Wars resulted in a relative shift in power due to the sheer number of men who died, snowballing into cultural changes and eventually into societal changes.


    There as been many great female rulers, and revolutionaries, and artists, and scientists. They didn't make sexist people see women as equal or deserving rights.
    Last edited by Unoriginal; 2017-03-15 at 04:09 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1068 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    Well described, not to mention Rich trolled the board beautifully with this strip ... some people bit.
    Exactly. Let's face it, that scene contributes nothing to the story. It's not like there's a 'resolve gender issues in the frost giant tribe' quest coming up. The OotS has too much on their plate as it is...

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    Default Re: OOTS #1068 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Unoriginal View Post
    And women acted for centuries, without much of a change. A major factor why the Western cultures are less sexist than before nowadays is because the successive World Wars resulted in a relative shift in power due to the sheer number of men who died, snowballing into cultural changes and eventually into societal changes.
    I will suggest to you that there is a correlation between today's strip and the following fact:

    As a result of our efforts, the week of March 8th (International Women’s Day) was officially designated as National Women’s History Week.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1068 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganbatte View Post
    Regardless it's her own choice to take the road of "sucking it up and play low" instead of fighting the fight where it belongs. If she's as strong as she claims then she could easily duel her male colleagues or prove her worth in ways that cannot be ignored by her elders, but she apparently didn't do that.
    What's certain is that throwing a fit at Roy berating her culture and God won't help.
    I don't know if you watched the movie G.I. Jane but that's the correct approach to take in these situations. Less whining, more acting.


    Maybe if she hadn't held back she could've saved her comrade and proved herself to be a valid asset. Just a thought.
    That's implying that the Frost Giant society more merit based than political. It's entirely possible that her "colleague" was of a much higher social standing, possibly even the son of the elder. So exceeding expectations and making herself look good would come at the cost of making someone rather powerful and important look bad. Making those kinds of people look bad usually bodes ill for your life prospects. Kings, rulers, and elders like people who are very competent at what they do. You know what they hate? People who are so good at what they do they upset the social status quo and threaten their position either directly or indirectly.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1068 - The Discussion Thread

    Giant: "I'm going to write in a joke about real-world sexism, which will A: be funny in context, and B: piss off some people enough that they spend literal PAGES in the Discussion Thread arguing either that sexism in the workplace isn't a thing and they don't want to see it in their webcomic because it's their safe space and seeing things which imply dissenting views upsets them, or it is a thing and women are addressing it wrong, or it is a thing but they don't want to see it in their webcomic because it's their safe space and seeing things which make them uncomfortable upsets them."

    B is probably incidental.
    Last edited by RogueCookie; 2017-03-15 at 04:15 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1068 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogar Demonblud View Post
    Also, note that she's the only female frost giant warrior we've seen.
    Quote Originally Posted by Spellbreaker26 View Post
    Not true, there were some clerics. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1052.html
    One female cleric, one female guard (the archer). You can tell the guard isn't a cleric because of her lack of holy symbol pendant.

    And there were other females among the giants. I didn't do a census, but roughly half were female.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1068 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    I will suggest to you that there is a correlation between today's strip and the following fact:

    As a result of our efforts, the week of March 8th (International Women’s Day) was officially designated as National Women’s History Week.
    You'll note that this effort started in the 80s, which, while certainly not an egalitarian time period, was still decades after that society in the US changed to allow more (not much, but more than before) freedom and recognition to women.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1068 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrannosaurus View Post
    That's implying that the Frost Giant society more merit based than political. It's entirely possible that her "colleague" was of a much higher social standing, possibly even the son of the elder. So exceeding expectations and making herself look good would come at the cost of making someone rather powerful and important look bad. Making those kinds of people look bad usually bodes ill for your life prospects. Kings, rulers, and elders like people who are very competent at what they do. You know what they hate? People who are so good at what they do they upset the social status quo and threaten their position either directly or indirectly.
    "...So I just stood back and let them all die."

    Great plan! That'll surely bode well to the figures of power.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1068 - The Discussion Thread

    Letting your rivals die in combat is a oft-used tactic.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1068 - The Discussion Thread

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    Default Re: OOTS #1068 - The Discussion Thread

    Not sure if this will help the current overarching discussion about sexism parallels in the comic but I'll give it a whirl.

    First, I can't find it for now, but a good example of this sort of thing comes in the form of the backstory of the stock barbarian character in the Pathfinder handbook. Can't remember her name but I barely recall that she has sort of a similar situation. Male dominated society, absurdly strong female character sent on a suicide mission she succeeds in, survives, finds out before she returns that she was sent to die in that mission and leaves her tribe to adventure... Hopefully if anybody here has a copy of that can proof read if I got all the important plot details correctly.

    Second, prose, even in a brief manner, might just be a good place to put in parallels to things that cause problems in RL. Kinda like how comedy sometimes pokes fun at the flawed things that happen in RL as well. Good comedians poke fun at that and make the audience think, thereby facilitating a non-hostile way of instilling a conflicting idea over somebody's bias barrier.

    Third... well, I don't really have a third. I just wish I could put a link on that first point. I really think that would be a good parallel. I guess my real third is that, acting up against injustice is fine and all, but is it economical? People aren't just symbols against oppression, inequality and injustice, they're just people too. Much like I don't expect Uncle Myrtok or Aarindarius to just drop everything and help the Order wholeheartedly if the Order were to ask for it because they're basically people with nuanced motivations and not just cardboard cutout deus ex machina's, It's also not that easy to just rise up against these injustices because situations and truth are always just very nuanced. RL gets in the way, families to feed, lives to get back to and all that.

    edit:
    Also, I'd like to assert that lady frost giant is not in fact whining but possibly expressing self confirming righteous indignation because if we were to buy in to the premise that she is under workplace bias duress, this is a great chance for her to succeed at her job with very little to no conflicting point to prove otherwise since the only other voice that can make assertions on what happened is dead... Unless her bosses comes back with the whole "maybe her partner softened them up for her" schtick though. Damn.
    Last edited by Mido; 2017-03-15 at 04:35 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1068 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    New comic is up.
    Is OOTS going the way of Sinfest?

    I mean, that's totally Rich's call. His comic strip after all. Just wondering.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1068 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Spellbreaker26 View Post
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    Default Re: OOTS #1068 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Like hroşila said, there is plenty examples in RL of this very situation going on, in the military and in many other fields.
    There are plenty of examples of people taking credit for other peoples work without it being motivated by sexism. Contrary to the third wave belief, every action isn't motivated by sexism. Some (maybe most) people are just self indulgent *******s.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1068 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Gusion View Post
    Is OOTS going the way of Sinfest?

    I mean, that's totally Rich's call. His comic strip after all. Just wondering.
    Please, it's not because an author bring up those issues that they're going the Sinfest road.

    Beside, Rich actually seems informed about the issues at hand and is actually a coherent storyteller. There isn't going to be something to the level of "there is a slave market operating in the open in the middle of the city and none of the protagonists care or do much about it."

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    Default Re: OOTS #1068 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Zernin View Post
    There are plenty of examples of people taking credit for other peoples work without it being motivated by sexism. Contrary to the third wave belief, every action isn't motivated by sexism. Some (maybe most) people are just self indulgent *******s.
    Not every action is motivated by sexism. But many are. Including the one the comic is talking about and its real-world parallels. What's the problem?
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    Default Re: OOTS #1068 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mido View Post
    First, I can't find it for now, but a good example of this sort of thing comes in the form of the backstory of the stock barbarian character in the Pathfinder handbook. Can't remember her name but I barely recall that she has sort of a similar situation. Male dominated society, absurdly strong female character sent on a suicide mission she succeeds in, survives, finds out before she returns that she was sent to die in that mission and leaves her tribe to adventure... Hopefully if anybody here has a copy of that can proof read if I got all the important plot details correctly.

    ...

    I just wish I could put a link on that first point.
    ...

    Did somebody wish for a link?

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    Default Re: OOTS #1068 - The Discussion Thread

    I don't have any particular issues with our giantess's rant, though I do have to wonder what the point of it was narratively speaking. I don't think we'd get this tiny insight into giant culture if we weren't going to see more of it later, though I can't say I'm especially interested in following that train: as at least one other person has said, the order has enough on its plate right now that another subplot would be kind of silly at this stage. Still, you never know what might happen.

    More than anything, I'm unjustifiably salty about the fact that Roy's sword apparently doesn't have the returning property: political discussion is all well and good, but a guy with a big sword laying waste to his enemies is what really hai yais my forces. Though admittedly I'm a person with very limited tastes, so this shouldn't reflect on what Rich does in the future.
    Currently daydreaming about: big giant swords.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1068 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Unoriginal View Post
    You'll note that this effort started in the 80s, which, while certainly not an egalitarian time period, was still decades after that society in the US changed to allow more (not much, but more than before) freedom and recognition to women.
    We are in violent agreement. I was in high school when "I Am Woman" was a hit song on the radio. Bra burning was a big deal a few years before that ... but your (I think it was you) point on Rosie the riveter was not being argued against.
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2017-03-15 at 04:45 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1068 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Libro View Post
    Holy crap, you're my hero!

    Been looking for that for quite a while. I must be going through hypoglycemia because wow, did not even register to try the pathfinder wikia. That and I couldn't remember her name.

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